Exalted 3E Discussion

[Biigoh]

Problem with that is twofold:

1) Running a game isn't playing in one.

2) I don't think I'm creative enough to actually run one.

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The Bii agrees... but it's still better than not playing. :#

 

[Bre Karn]

Linguistics has always been horribly OP if people were willing to get creative with it.

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It's not only Linguistics - the shadow possession Charm in Stealth explicitly names abstract Intimacies such as "I cannot be controlled" as invalid for the purpose of resisting it (and points to "Intimacies and Roleplaying" sidebar for further considerations).

 

[Bre Karn]

It appears the conversation died fast.

So: is it me, or is Thrown a bit underwhelming? It seems to have fewer Charms, no true Essence 5 capstone...

Also Survival: having to buy the Permanent Familiar Strenghtening Charms seems like a huge investment if you have several familiars.
On the other hand, explicit refund in case of Familiar Death, and beastmaster Solar Oh my Gawd.

 

[kinglugia]

I'm more interested in the Exigent Exalts, though. So many possibilities to them, kufufufu...

 

[Stroth]

I'm more interested in the Exigent Exalts, though. So many possibilities to them, kufufufu...

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They're just Godbloods with a fancy name.

 

[tehelgee]

It appears the conversation died fast.

So: is it me, or is Thrown a bit underwhelming? It seems to have fewer Charms, no true Essence 5 capstone...

Also Survival: having to buy the Permanent Familiar Strenghtening Charms seems like a huge investment if you have several familiars.
On the other hand, explicit refund in case of Familiar Death, and beastmaster Solar Oh my Gawd.

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Thrown isn't underwhelming at all, simply because it has Flashing Draw Mastery and Swarm-Culling Instinct. Combine them with Battle Blinding Feint from Stealth, and you pretty much are guaranteed to Join Battle with enough initiative to outright murder one target of your choice.

 

[Nekraa]

They're just Godbloods with a fancy name.

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If you're like that, I could say the same thing about other Exalts.

Solars: Oh, only humans affected by the Sun's fancy endowmnent charm.

Lunars: See above. Replace "Sun's" with "Moon's"

Sidereals: This is starting to become a pattern.

Dragonblooded: Man, these guys are even better godblooded. They even inherits it, unlike the ones above.

And so on.

 

[tehelgee]

I could have sworn the book mentioned godblooded somewhere, though it was just fluff and none are statted out.

 

[Nekraa]

I could have sworn the book mentioned godblooded somewhere, though it was just fluff and none are statted out.

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ctrl-f "god-blooded" gives a few finds. But nothing about them really.

 

[tehelgee]

I do like the idea of god-blooded... and demon-blooded, and ghost-blooded, and *gasp* half-Castes. Such a shame hardly nobody else does. :/

 

[Nekraa]

They are interesting.

 

[tehelgee]

http://paste2.org/_NyAN9eLd

So, someone was advertising a game on /tg/ and I got into it. I created a character for it, a Night Caste. That's mechanics only, basically. Anyone see any problems or errors with it?

 

[Valette-Serafina]

If you're like that, I could say the same thing about other Exalts.

Solars: Oh, only humans affected by the Sun's fancy endowmnent charm.

Lunars: See above. Replace "Sun's" with "Moon's"

Sidereals: This is starting to become a pattern.

Dragonblooded: Man, these guys are even better godblooded. They even inherits it, unlike the ones above.

And so on.

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Not even faintly the same.

I hate the Exigents because they're taking a previously established idea, God-blooded mortals, and replacing it with more Exalted.
We have enough Exalted.
See, we already had unique champions of the gods, bestowed with divine power. They were created by divine blessing or birth. Godblooded. That was good. They gave the setting some flavour, a bit more depth.
Calling them Exalted is pointless. It's meaningless. It makes the Exalted even more common, and less significant.

The Exalted are supposed to be rare. Ten Thousand Dragons, The Suns and The Moons and The Stars. The Black Sun princes and the Green Sun princes. The Chosen of the Great Maker.
This is diluting the concept. It's a massive change to the way we've known Creation. It's quite frankly a waste of wordcount.

If they want to make some new Exalted, they shouldn't steal a prior concept, relabel it, and expect us to smile. Liminals may be something worth a damn, but I'd rather see E Alchemicals.


As for the Celestial Exalted, what defined them in Ex2 was a third soul, once a fragment of the Incarne.
As for the Dragonblooded, they are the Terrestrial Exalted, set aside from Godblooded mortals by the magnitude and power of their blessing. They inherit the power of Gaia Herself, a Primordial. They stood aside from all other Exalted, distinct and unique.
The Alchemical Exalted are lives forged by Divinity and Mortality, half of a human soul bound to an inhuman wellspring of power. Of all of the Exalted, they stand closest to the Godblooded. They are separate because of the nature of their creation, because they are created by a Primordial, and because they are not unique existences.

What makes the Exigent so notable, that they can stand alongside the eternal line of the Ten-Thousand Dragons, the Imperishable Souls of the Celestial Exalted, and the Divine Spark of the Alchemical Exalted? What justifies calling the rabble of distinct beings with unrelated powers, natures, and purposes Exalted?

Nothing that I can see.

 

[kinglugia]

Wow, Valette-Serafina that was really hammy.

 

[Valette-Serafina]

Wow, Valette-Serafina that was really hammy.

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...It's Exalted. Hamminess is mandatory.

 

[Biigoh]

Tanuki supports the theory that the godblooded got to the writers!

 

[tehelgee]

Exigents aren't a replacement for god-blooded. They're meant, I think, to be the Champion of their particular god and I don't think there's going to be many of them, as the gods that can make one and survive are few in number, and those that can't survive it probably won't do it unless their domain is threatened and there's no other way to defend it AND they're selfless enough to suicide over it.

 

[Smuthunter]

If they want to make some new Exalted, they shouldn't steal a prior concept, relabel it, and expect us to smile.

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I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of my OFFICIAL HOMEBREW SUPPORT KIT.

 

[Valette-Serafina]

I also dislike the idea for taking away one of the few paths to power available to mortals, because while Exaltation cannot be directed, blessings can.
And that's another thing that's bad; Directable Exaltation. The closest to that previously was the Alchemical Exaltation, and even that wasn't a sure thing.

Exigents aren't a replacement for god-blooded. They're meant, I think, to be the Champion of their particular god and I don't think there's going to be many of them, as the gods that can make one and survive are few in number, and those that can't survive it probably won't do it unless their domain is threatened and there's no other way to defend it AND they're selfless enough to suicide over it.

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I can't see why that merits calling them Exalted. They're still stepping on the Godblooded concept, and you can sure as hell bet that we'll see fifteen or so npc Exigents stated out, if not more.

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of my OFFICIAL HOMEBREW SUPPORT KIT.

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...Say what.

They aren't even planning a coherent Charmset? Is that a thing they're doing? Because that's something a dev should be tazed for. That's shear laziness.

 

[tehelgee]

I also dislike the idea for taking away one of the few paths to power available to mortals, because while Exaltation cannot be directed, blessings can.

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Life sucks for mortals in Creation, and not even the Exalted that try can fix that.

And that's another thing that's bad; Directable Exaltation. The closest to that previously was the Alchemical Exaltation, and even that wasn't a sure thing.

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I don't think Exigents can be controlled anymore than other Exalted.

I can't see why that merits calling them Exalted. They're still stepping on the Godblooded concept, and you can sure as hell bet that we'll see fifteen or so npc Exigents stated out, if not more.

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They're called Exalted because when they die, their power passes on to the next one. And yeah, we're gonna see examples. How else could we see how to make our own?

They aren't even planning a coherent Charmset? Is that a thing they're doing? Because that's something a dev should be tazed for. That's shear laziness.

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Exigent Charmsets are like Artifact Evocations... each one is different.

 

[Smuthunter]

I also dislike the idea for taking away one of the few paths to power available to mortals, because while Exaltation cannot be directed, blessings can.

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Oh well. Mortals can be sorcerers now. I say they traded up big time.

...Say what.

They aren't even planning a coherent Charmset? Is that a thing they're doing? Because that's something a dev should be tazed for. That's shear laziness.

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Speak for yourself! I would pay through the nose for a hand-written guide to homebrewing balanced material that doesn't suck. And if you can make charms for Exigents then it shouldn't be difficult to homebrew new stuff for the existing splats. I could not possibly be happier with this arrangement.

 

[Valette-Serafina]

I don't think Exigents can be controlled anymore than other Exalted.

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Not that kind of directable. In Ex2, there wasn't a way to make someone Exalted.
It happened or it didn't, but no-one could control it. That's not the case for these punks.

They're called Exalted because when they die, their power passes on to the next one.

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Oh? Wonderful. And here I thought they were going to be unique. Nice to see there's inconstancy in play as well.

I suppose that'd make them Exalted, but that doesn't change my opinion that they shouldn't exist.

And yeah, we're gonna see examples. How else could we see how to make our own?

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That's what a character creation process is for.

Exigent Charmsets are like Artifact Evocations... each one is different.

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Ah. Yes, that's a brilliant idea. As a Storyteller, I can't even begin to say how much I love the idea of my players making their entire Charmset. Why, and I'd have to help out, wouldn't I.
Yay. Hooray for DIY rules. They should certainly be an entire splat.

Oh well. Mortals can be sorcerers now. I say they traded up big time.

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That's not new. Mortals have always been able to access the Emerald Circle of Sorcery, if they could use essence.

Few managed, but it was possible.

Speak for yourself! I would pay through the nose for a hand-written guide to homebrewing balanced material that doesn't suck. And if you can make charms for Exigents then it shouldn't be difficult to homebrew new stuff for the existing splats. I could not possibly be happier with this arrangement.

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I'd be more impressed if it wasn't to be written by the writers who decided a system with Initiative as a resource that should change constantly was streamlined and low on bookkeeping. Combat will drag. And that's before we get into the Butchery that's Craft, or involve the rerolling Charms.

Some of E is good. Some of it is very very not.

In short, I don't expect it to be a guide to making balanced material that doesn't suck. I expect it to be a guide to making material.

 

[Nervaqus987]

...Say what.

They aren't even planning a coherent Charmset? Is that a thing they're doing? Because that's something a dev should be tazed for. That's shear laziness.

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The Dev's plans for the Exigent book was to compile several essays about how they go about writing Charms, ideas for costs, where things are put in Charm Trees, minimal requirements, etc.

They mentioned that they were going to include something they called the Charm Matrix, which they described as mechanizing as many effects as possible sans fluff to give people ideas of what to do, how to alter and adjust the costs for using Charms, etc.

Finally, they're planning to include Strawmaiden Janest's sheet and Charmset as an example and, IIRC, include design notes along the way for why the Charms for her picked, how they were balanced, and so on.

 

[Smuthunter]

I'd be more impressed if it wasn't to be written by the writers who decided a system with Initiative as a resource that should change constantly was streamlined and low on bookkeeping. Combat will drag. And that's before we get into the Butchery that's Craft, or involve the rerolling Charms.

Some of E is good. Some of it is very very not.

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Have you even read the PDF yet? Because I'm looking at /tg/ right now and the consensus is that EX3 is a really solid piece of work. Keep in mind this is a crowd that doesn't like the devs very much and has been testing the game pretty rigorously looking for weak points. I think you should hold your judgement until you've played a game or two.

 

[Valette-Serafina]

The Dev's plans for the Exigent book was to compile several essays about how they go about writing Charms, ideas for costs, where things are put in Charm Trees, minimal requirements, etc.

They mentioned that they were going to include something they called the Charm Matrix, which they described as mechanizing as many effects as possible sans fluff to give people ideas of what to do, how to alter and adjust the costs for using Charms, etc.

Finally, they're planning to include Strawmaiden Janest's sheet and Charmset as an example and, IIRC, include design notes along the way for why the Charms for her picked, how they were balanced, and so on.

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Better than nothing, but I have several players with no head for mechanics. I'm sure I'm not alone in that. If I were to allow Exigents, I'd need to at the least look over everything they make, and probably write most of it myself. Considering how Charm-heavy E is, that's not looking fun.

Character Creation takes long enough already without taking ten custom Charms.

Have you even read the PDF yet? Because I'm looking at /tg/ right now and the consensus is that EX3 is a really solid piece of work. Keep in mind this is a crowd that doesn't like the devs very much and has been testing the game pretty rigorously looking for weak points. I think you should hold your judgement until you've played a game or two.

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Yes. One of the most criticised elements of the Ex2 combat system was the tick timing system and the varying order of turns, for damn good reason.
That's not exactly what we have now. It's more complex, because standard attacks adjust turn order, as do some attacks and some Charms.

That's something that I'll be called on to keep track of, and it's inextricable from the combat system.

Additionally, the sheer number of Charms that have reset conditions, the number of Charms that let a player reroll certain numbers, Charms that depend on certain numbers being present, and Charms that add and subtract successes based on other die rolls.
Adding to that, multi-attack Charms still exist. More limited, perhaps, but still present.

Online, combat may work well. On the table, I can expect any encounter that involves a combat-capable Exalted npc to take up half a session if I'm lucky, two or more if anything complicates it.

This is not a quick combat system. Perfect turtling may be gone, but it's not going to be easy on a Storyteller.

Remember, I'll need to know how all of the Charms my players have work. I'll need to stunt, and adjudicate stunting. I'll need to run multiple opponents. I'll need to keep track of turn order, and describe the environment.
It's enough to make me cry.

I will try this system, but I expect to be very saddened by it.

 

[Nervaqus987]

Better than nothing, but I have several players with no head for mechanics. I'm sure I'm not alone in that. If I were to allow Exigents, I'd need to at the least look over everything they make, and probably write most of it myself. Considering how Charm-heavy E is, that's not looking fun.

Character Creation takes long enough already without taking ten custom Charms.

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From what I understand of the Charm Matrix, it's supposed to be a whole bunch of ready made Charms, just needing fluff, placement in a Charm Tree, and the requirements hammered down(though those are probably suggested in the Charm itself).

For example, I recall Holden mentioning a Charm to produce webbing(or restraints in general) with the recommended mote cost, willlpower(if any), duration, etc all already set into place with only a few "dials" needing to be adjusted for your particular character concept and, of course the fluff for the Charm.

Which sound like its supposed to be friendly to people of all mechanical inclinations to work with, but I suppose we'll simply have to see.

 

[Smuthunter]

Yes. One of the most criticised elements of the Ex2 combat system was the tick timing system and the varying order of turns, for damn good reason.
That's not exactly what we have now. It's more complex, because standard attacks adjust turn order, as do some attacks and some Charms.

That's something that I'll be called on to keep track of, and it's inextricable from the combat system.

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No, that's something you get your players to track. I keep a sheet of scratch paper handy, with my Join Battle result noted. When my initiative changes I make a note of it. So does everyone else. When the turn is over everyone tells the ST what their new initiative values are and the new turn order gets decided. Simplicity.

 

[Valette-Serafina]

From what I understand of the Charm Matrix, it's supposed to be a whole bunch of ready made Charms, just needing fluff, placement in a Charm Tree, and the requirements hammered down(though those are probably suggested in the Charm itself).

For example, I recall Holden mentioning a Charm to produce webbing(or restraints in general) with the recommended mote cost, willlpower(if any), duration, etc all already set into place with only a few "dials" needing to be adjusted for your particular character concept and, of course the fluff for the Charm.

Which sound like its supposed to be friendly to people of all mechanical inclinations to work with, but I suppose we'll simply have to see.

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Indeed.

No, that's something you get your players to track. I keep a sheet of scratch paper handy, with my Join Battle result noted. When my initiative changes I make a note of it. So does everyone else. When the turn is over everyone tells the ST what their new initiative values are and the new turn order gets decided. Simplicity.

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Nice idea. I was thinking of using d20s.
So, what about npcs? Players who are still learning the system? And how is a turn order that changes every round simple? For that matter, don't initiative changes affect turn order in the round they change, if the one with the changed initiative hasn't acted yet?

It's a fair few moving parts, and that makes the system more complex. It looks sound, but not simple.

 

[EnderofWorlds]

No, that's something you get your players to track. I keep a sheet of scratch paper handy, with my Join Battle result noted. When my initiative changes I make a note of it. So does everyone else. When the turn is over everyone tells the ST what their new initiative values are and the new turn order gets decided. Simplicity.

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Yeah, basically this; if your players aren't willing to do even the sheer basics needed to play their character, then why are they even playing? It's their job to know their stats and abilities when they enter combat, and it's the GM's job to handle the NPCs and what happens to them as a result of the players' actions.

Indeed.

Nice idea. I was thinking of using d20s.
So, what about npcs? Players who are still learning the system? And how is a turn order that changes every round simple? For that matter, don't initiative changes affect turn order in the round they change, if the one with the changed initiative hasn't acted yet?

It's a fair few moving parts, and that makes the system more complex. It looks sound, but not simple.

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Do a trial combat run then, if you're so worried. And the turn order thing really doesn't sound like a big deal, it's not like changing turn order is a novel concept after all. D&D's done it for fucking years and it's worked fine for them.

 

[Valette-Serafina]

Yeah, basically this; if your players aren't willing to do even the sheer basics needed to play their character, then why are they even playing? It's their job to know their stats and abilities when they enter combat, and it's the GM's job to handle the NPCs and what happens to them as a result of the players' actions.

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That's a nice theory. Does it work for you in practice?
If so, are you willing to share your players, please?

Do a trial combat run then, if you're so worried. And the turn order thing really doesn't sound like a big deal, it's not like changing turn order is a novel concept after all. D&D's done it for fucking years and it's worked fine for them.

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D&D has changing the position of one's turn as an option. It can be done, but it's not something that happens every fight. I can record it with arrows.
E has a constant shift in turn order every turn. I've decided that I'll be able to use tables for recording the order of turns, but that's still at least an extra minute every turn.

Don't get me wrong, E's got some good rules. Mass Combat's perfect, as much as the system will allow, and Social Influence may be complex but it's beautiful.
Even the combat system's got high points. It's just not simple, nor fast.