Exalted 3E Discussion

[Smuthunter]

Nice idea. I was thinking of using d20s.
So, what about npcs?

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That's your job. Fortunately you shouldn't have a lot of them to deal with because of how battle groups work. If you have a dozen ninjas on one side and the players on the other then just roll the ninjas into a single battle group. If there's a dragonblood or something with them then you have a grand total of two characters to keep track of.

Players who are still learning the system? And how is a turn order that changes every round simple? For that matter, don't initiative changes affect turn order in the round they change, if the one with the changed initiative hasn't acted yet?

It's a fair few moving parts, and that makes the system more complex. It looks sound, but not simple.

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For the record, I am still learning the system and it didn't take a lot of thought to come up with "split up the bookkeeping a little." Just because you're the ST doesn't mean you should do all the work. Another tip, have the players make and keep handy a set of flash cards with their charms written down on them so you spend less time flipping through the rulebooks.

The combat system isn't simple (certainly not as simple as Nameless Shadow Quest, but you can't get a lot simpler than "roll dice, add modifiers, check result against target value"), but it isn't maddeningly complex either. Attack resolution is down from ten steps to four. That by itself is a huge improvement over the 2E system.

 

[EnderofWorlds]

That's a nice theory. Does it work for you in practice?
If so, are you willing to share your players?

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...Yes? The only player of mine who doesn't keep track of his shit is my roommate, and he has cerebral palsy so it's not like we completely expect him to be able to track things down. He does, however, have his aid write down whatever changes to his character occurs and dictates it; just because he can't physically keep up doesn't mean he can't do it mentally, it just means someone else has to be his arms.

As a collective playgroup, we've made it clear that it's the player's responsibility to keep track of their character; if they lose track of their xp then tough shit, same goes for items and anything else they lose track of. The GM is the GM, not their babysitter.

D&D has changing the position of one's turn as an option. It can be done, but it's not something that happens every fight. I can record it with arrows.
E has a constant shift in turn order every turn. I've decided that I'll need to use tables for recording the order of turns, but that's still at least an extra minute every turn.

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Again, I don't see it; everyone has a starting initiative, and at the end of each round they have a new one and adjust their order accordingly. How is that table worthy? It's literally no different than having to roll a d20 for initiative; hell, I'd argue that it's easier because it's fairly static and only involves simple addition and subtraction.

Don't get me wrong, E's got some good rules. Mass Combat's perfect, as much as the system will allow, and Social Influence may be complex but it's beautiful.
Even the combat system's got high points. It's just not simple, nor fast.

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I just don't see it; to me, the system does look fairly simply and has little reason to be slow.

 

[tehelgee]

Again, I don't see it; everyone has a starting initiative, and at the end of each round they have a new one and adjust their order accordingly. How is that table worthy? It's literally no different than having to roll a d20 for initiative; hell, I'd argue that it's easier because it's fairly static and only involves simple addition and subtraction.

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Not quite as simple as that. Your initiative can increase and decrease over one turn with E. Plus there's Initiative Crash to be aware of.

 

[Valette-Serafina]

That's your job. Fortunately you shouldn't have a lot of them to deal with because of how battle groups work. If you have a dozen ninjas on one side and the players on the other then just roll the ninjas into a single battle group. If there's a dragonblood or something with them then you have a grand total of two characters to keep track of.

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Considering how Exalted fights go, I'd say that any real combat would have two or three NPCs to manage.
Considering my group, it's not unreasonable to assume four to six. Anything less will melt like water, because four combat-capable Exalts have more turns. If it's a single mortal foe, or a small battlegroup, I may as well skip the fight for how much risk there is.

For the record, I am still learning the system and it didn't take a lot of thought to come up with "split up the bookkeeping a little." Just because you're the ST doesn't mean you should do all the work. Another tip, have the players make and keep handy a set of flash cards with their charms written down on them so you spend less time flipping through the rulebooks.

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Considering how many Charms there are, they'd be flipping through their deck.
It's a useful thing, but there are a lot of Charms. They've increased in number.

The combat system isn't simple (certainly not as simple as Nameless Shadow Quest, but you can't get a lot simpler than "roll dice, add modifiers, check result against target value"), but it isn't maddeningly complex either. Attack resolution is down from ten steps to four. That by itself is a huge improvement over the 2E system.

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Mm, true. Nameless Shadow is the simplest system that I could put together, and it wouldn't work for Tabletop format without subrules. I'm not expecting something that simple.

 

[EnderofWorlds]

Not quite as simple as that. Your initiative can increase and decrease over one turn with E. Plus there's Initiative Crash to be aware of.

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Initiative Crash is basically the equivalent of a fumble in D&D, only not because of random ass luck but because of actual dramatic and interactive gameplay mechanics, which is a good thing.

As for initiative changing over the course of a turn, your initiative does change over the course of a turn from what I'm reading, but it doesn't say anywhere when the changes are accounted for in the round. At least, not where I can find; the leak isn't exactly in the best reading condition and I'll admit that it's not easy for me to trawl through, but looking at the Initiative parts right now I'm not seeing anything that goes into more detail on that.

 

[Valette-Serafina]

Again, I don't see it; everyone has a starting initiative, and at the end of each round they have a new one and adjust their order accordingly. How is that table worthy? It's literally no different than having to roll a d20 for initiative; hell, I'd argue that it's easier because it's fairly static and only involves simple addition and subtraction.

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Order of names, as it's my job to tell everyone who's next in the order.
It'd work like this

Player A	1	5	4	3	2	1
Player B	2	1	1	1	5	3
Player C	4	4	3	5	4	2
NPC 1	3	2	2	2	1	5
NPC 2	5	3	5	4	3	4

Adding a new column every round. I'd need to adjust it in every round if the initiative of a character who hadn't acted changed, so it'd be more complicated than that.

I just don't see it; to me, the system does look fairly simply and has little reason to be slow.

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In combat, every character has one resource that changes constantly, Initiative, and one that changes less often, Health levels. Also Willpower, but I can't recall what mortals can do with that in a fight.
Exalted characters also have Motes that regenerate, and Charms that have reset conditions.
Five resources.

There are two attack types, each of which use different modifiers to determine dicepool and damage. Additionally, stunting can add dice.
Charms offer additional ways to make those attacks, and can change the way attacks work significantly.

In addition, there are Gambits.

You seem blessed with a steady and capable group of players. I'm not. I will need to explain everything more than once, and that's assuming I don't get a new player mid game.

Initiative Crash is basically the equivalent of a fumble in D&D, only not because of random ass luck but because of actual dramatic and interactive gameplay mechanics, which is a good thing.

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It's quite different. It also changes when a character acts.

As for initiative changing over the course of a turn, your initiative does change over the course of a turn from what I'm reading, but it doesn't say anywhere when the changes are accounted for in the round. At least, not where I can find; the leak isn't exactly in the best reading condition and I'll admit that it's not easy for me to trawl through, but looking at the Initiative parts right now I'm not seeing anything that goes into more detail on that.

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When I read it, I got the impression that if you haven't acted, you act on your current initiative. If you have, you wait till next turn. If you have a higher initiative than anyone else, you go next. If there's a tie, I have no idea.

 

[Smuthunter]

Considering how Exalted fights go, I'd say that any real combat would have two or three NPCs to manage.
Considering my group, it's not unreasonable to assume four to six. Anything less will melt like water, because four combat-capable Exalts have more turns. If it's a single mortal foe, or a small battlegroup, I may as well skip the fight for how much risk there is.

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Small battlegroups can be a threat by being elite, or by escaping to tell their superiors where you are, or any number of other methods.

If you're really stuck on the initiative thing then you can probably patch it with a house rule that each player's turn order is determined by their initiative at the start of each turn and doesn't change until the start of the next one regardless of what happens from tick to tick. That should cut down on bookkeeping even if it makes the combat system a little less organic.

Considering how many Charms there are, they'd be flipping through their deck.
It's a useful thing, but there are a lot of Charms. They've increased in number.

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Not as much as you might think. There's 700+ charms in the rulebook, but in terms of what the players are actually using you're only looking at about 10-20 charms per player at chargen and at most one or two more per game session. In combat you're only going to need to know what their combat charms can do, so you can set aside all the charms that aren't relevant to the situation, like Crafting for example, and have a very small deck of options to flip through.

 

[Valette-Serafina]

If you're really stuck on the initiative thing then you can probably patch it with a house rule that each player's turn order is determined by their initiative at the start of each turn and doesn't change until the start of the next one regardless of what happens from tick to tick. That should cut down on bookkeeping even if it makes the combat system a little less organic.

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On consideration, that's actually the method with more bookkeeping. If I just call out for highest initiative and use D20s, it's liable to remove the need to update the turn order at the start of each turn.

Gonna eat a few seconds every turn, but that's unavoidable.

 

[Kiriel]

One of my friends recommended idea of making tokens or using poker chips. Write down names, a "x" on one side, and check on the other side. Arrange said tokens depending on initiative order, shift their placements depending on initiative, and flip them over if already acted.

Probably has merits, and will try it out in the future.

 

[Anasurimbor]

I also dislike the idea for taking away one of the few paths to power available to mortals, because while Exaltation cannot be directed, blessings can.

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Blessing is still a thing, though we don't have any hard rules for it yet.

And that's another thing that's bad; Directable Exaltation. The closest to that previously was the Alchemical Exaltation, and even that wasn't a sure thing.

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It really isn't new. Deathlords, for instance, could always pick who they Exalted.

That's not new. Mortals have always been able to access the Emerald Circle of Sorcery, if they could use essence.

Few managed, but it was possible.

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Now it is much more possible, but more importantly, vastly more potent. Before, a mortal could cast a maybe a spell or three, then they were spent. They also couldn't bind demons or elementals. Useful, but ultimately not an enormous threat to their betters.

Now, thanks to their increased endurance, and, more importantly, sorcerous workings, a mortal who learns sorcery can become a force to be reckoned with. He may even give pause to Exalted opponents, if he is sufficiently skillful, cunning, and willing to build every possible advantage. Most importantly, unlike spells, mortals aren't limited to terrestrial or even celestial circle workings.

Honestly, I'm still not sure what to think about the fact that an extremely focused and clever mortal can actually realistically hope to complete an ambition 2 solar circle working.

 

[Bre Karn]

Yup, God-Blooded will still be a thing apparently.

Exigents are just as rare as you want them to be. They can be a dozen Exigents across the whole setting, or even none at all.

Also, they demand a mighty sacrifice of power. God-Blooded demand just some fucking around (and some time spent childrearing, but what is it to immortals?).

Dragon Blooded are just glorified God-Blooded, after all

 

[tehelgee]

Dragon Blooded are just glorified God-Blooded, after all

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I'd say they're a little more than God-Blooded, but not by much. More like Exigents that came about because numbers were needed and their patrons(the Dragons) cut a deal with Ignis Divine.

I have always wondered, what kind of effect would it be if the ten thousand number wasn't just hyperbole and was literal? Meaning, there were never more or less than 10k DB at any time? How would that have changed history?

 

[tehelgee]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17brmlP8NJHxCJfcEn2tIJ8G0RnLCav-ozmXz38EOsoM/edit#gid=0

If you guys need an Exalted 3e sheet, there you are.

 

[Plotvitalnpc]

I'd say they're a little more than God-Blooded, but not by much. More like Exigents that came about because numbers were needed and their patrons(the Dragons) cut a deal with Ignis Divine.

I have always wondered, what kind of effect would it be if the ten thousand number wasn't just hyperbole and was literal? Meaning, there were never more or less than 10k DB at any time? How would that have changed history?

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Breeding waaaars!

A third dragonblooded power enters the scene, using a mass-production eugenics program to hog the supply of Dragonblooded exaltations such that Lookshy and the Realm will weaken.

 

[tehelgee]

Glorious Solar Chef!

Be a Twilight. Craft, Lore, Occult, Bureaucracy, and Medicine as Caste abilities. Favor Performance, Resistance, Awareness, Socialize, and one other of your choice.

Take Craft as your Supernal, with the goal of taking Craft(Cooking), Craft(Metalworking), and Craft(Artifacts). You won't be maxing them at chargen, of course, but it is a goal. Why metalworking and artifacts? To craft artifact tools that impart a ton of effects into food they're used to cook.

Lore and Occult are mostly for the requirements to craft Artifacts and a lack of other good Caste choices, but you can still make use of them to learn old recipes, call up and interrogate spirits, demons, elementals, etc, and get recipes and knowledge and shit from them.

Medicine is to make sure you don't actually make, like, poison or mutagens or some such shit.
Bureaucracy is for your mighty restaurant empire, and the source of your Resources merit.
Performance is for any live cooking performances you might do, like sushi chefs.
Awareness is for the taste charms, to fine tune the taste of your glorious fare.
Socialize is so you don't make faux pas like serving dog to the canine version of the Mongols.
Resistance so you can cook forever without sleeping.

Merits would probably be shit like Resources, Influence, Backing, Allies, Retainers, Followers and so on, to reflect your grand empire of food.

 

[Valette-Serafina]

It really isn't new. Deathlords, for instance, could always pick who they Exalted.

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... That's true. I'd forgotten about that. I don't play Abyssals often.

I'm not sure how I feel about that. It feels a little wrong to have characters in the setting who can direct an Exaltation. If the Deathlords could do it, the Primordials should have been capable.

Hm.

 

[tehelgee]

... That's true. I'd forgotten about that. I don't play Abyssals often.

I'm not sure how I feel about that. It feels a little wrong to have characters in the setting who can direct an Exaltation. If the Deathlords could do it, the Primordials should have been capable.

Hm.

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Aren't the Infernals chosen too?

 

[Valette-Serafina]

Aren't the Infernals chosen too?

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By the Exaltation itself. The demon merely carries it. The Yozi have nothing to do with it, beyond binding the Exaltation within the demon.

A potential Infernal can deny it, and refuse Exaltation, but they must be the kind of person who could have Exalted as a Solar. That's the failure that marks them.
Perhaps they decided not to try. Perhaps they tried, but there was no Exaltation. Ether way, had things been different they might have been a Solar.

 

[Plotvitalnpc]

Personally, I have more fun with the idea of things that resemble the classical exalts, but distinctly aren't that.
S'why of the canon exalt types, I'm quite interested in Alchemicals, Liminals, and Getimians above the rest.

It's also why I'm an enthusiastic cat about the fact that the Masters of the Industrial Elements homebrew is planned for expansion into 3e (and sad that it'll have to wait for alchemicals before it can really happen), and why I contributed as heavily as I could to the Khaucon/Stitch Children project throughout it's current lifespan.

..and I hope I can do the same in 3e.

 

[Bre Karn]

By the Exaltation itself.

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Well, technically the Abyssal Exaltation can't bind to anyone - the person must have Solar-level potential as well. The Deathlords can nudge the direction it searches in, though.

 

[Nervaqus987]

By the Exaltation itself. The demon merely carries it. The Yozi have nothing to do with it, beyond binding the Exaltation within the demon.

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In their defense, the Deathlords can't just Exalt whoever they please. It has to be someone worthy of Exalting.

Also, the Deathlord's have substantially more freedom to apply and project their power in Creation than the Yozi do.

 

[BFldyq]

You know, easy way of derailing the "Exigents could be any random person": the "base" Exaltation have the basic criteria written into them, which automatically alerts the God holding it whether someone's worthy.

 

[Smuthunter]

You know, easy way of derailing the "Exigents could be any random person": the "base" Exaltation have the basic criteria written into them, which automatically alerts the God holding it whether someone's worthy.

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I'm pretty sure this is already canon. Strawmaiden Janest's piece of fiction indicates that Ten Sheaves chose her over the other farm girls because she had something they didn't, and it wasn't martial skill.

I sincerely doubt the devs would be so stupid as to make Exigence something you could give to just any random person, although depending on the Exaltation they might have unique or unusual selection criteria.

 

[tehelgee]

You know, with the power of Solar Circle workings, I wonder if it's not simply possible for a Solar to create their own Exaltations?

 

[Guile]

Glorious Solar Chef!

Be a Twilight. Craft, Lore, Occult, Bureaucracy, and Medicine as Caste abilities. Favor Performance, Resistance, Awareness, Socialize, and one other of your choice.

Take Craft as your Supernal, with the goal of taking Craft(Cooking), Craft(Metalworking), and Craft(Artifacts). You won't be maxing them at chargen, of course, but it is a goal. Why metalworking and artifacts? To craft artifact tools that impart a ton of effects into food they're used to cook.

Lore and Occult are mostly for the requirements to craft Artifacts and a lack of other good Caste choices, but you can still make use of them to learn old recipes, call up and interrogate spirits, demons, elementals, etc, and get recipes and knowledge and shit from them.

Medicine is to make sure you don't actually make, like, poison or mutagens or some such shit.
Bureaucracy is for your mighty restaurant empire, and the source of your Resources merit.
Performance is for any live cooking performances you might do, like sushi chefs.
Awareness is for the taste charms, to fine tune the taste of your glorious fare.
Socialize is so you don't make faux pas like serving dog to the canine version of the Mongols.
Resistance so you can cook forever without sleeping.

Merits would probably be shit like Resources, Influence, Backing, Allies, Retainers, Followers and so on, to reflect your grand empire of food.

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I would absolutely play that. He regularly leaves his shop in the capable hands of his Followers and goes adventuring with an artifact wok on his back.

 

[Plotvitalnpc]

I would absolutely play that. He regularly leaves his shop in the capable hands of his Followers and goes adventuring with an artifact wok on his back.

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He's a master of Solar Gyro Style.
(Pronounced Hero)

 

[EnderofWorlds]

You know, with the power of Solar Circle workings, I wonder if it's not simply possible for a Solar to create their own Exaltations?

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If I were the ST and my players were high essence I'd allow it, Exalted are all about transcending limitations a la 'kick reason to the curb and go beyond the impossible!' logic. I'd then start up a new campaign with each player being the first recipient of their newly forged Exaltations and run with it.

In other news; I seriously don't get the hate for the Doombot charm, it's totally cool and give crafter/sorcerers something noteworthy and impressive enough to make all their effort feel worthwhile. And it's not like the concept of a Doombot is novel in any way, shape, or form; for either the GM or the player to use.

 

[Nekraa]

You know, the "doombot" is similar to Avoidance Kata. Just, it lets you do it further into the scene and at a higher price.

 

[Darkened]

You know, with the power of Solar Circle workings, I wonder if it's not simply possible for a Solar to create their own Exaltations?

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Given that, aside from the limits of sorcery, there aren't any rules about what ambition 3 can't do...

Yeah, by RAW it seems doable.

You'd probably notionally need at least finesse 3 to be sure it works quite right, or have any real creative control over what kind of exalts, so it's probably going to at least require a few years of effort and some arbitrary rolling.

You know, the "doombot" is similar to Avoidance Kata. Just, it lets you do it further into the scene and at a higher price.

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Similar mechanically, except it's closer to a free revival charm at a relatively manageable cost. It lets you fight things out and then decide to run, vs Avoidance Kata's power to run away very well.

Conceptually, it equates a solar character sheet with, well, a single artifact NA. If you can make fully functional doombots, why the hell do you only have one of them active at a time? If this is doable, why aren't you flooding the world with identical clones of yourself intent on enforcing your will?

It's also, narratively, a huge cheat.

Avoidance Kata works because you can fight it off and keep chasing. Dual Magnus Prana lets you win your big climatic boss fight with that fiendish twilight mad scientist and then have the ST pull the rug out from under you, and declare all your efforts there essentially pointless.

 

[Valette-Serafina]

If I were the ST and my players were high essence I'd allow it, Exalted are all about transcending limitations a la 'kick reason to the curb and go beyond the impossible!' logic.

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Except time travel and reversing death.
Or rather, except escaping consequence.

In other news; I seriously don't get the hate for the Doombot charm, it's totally cool and give crafter/sorcerers something noteworthy and impressive enough to make all their effort feel worthwhile.

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Other than the giant robot, making Kusanagi, their fancy palace, and all the other cool stuff? Something more is needed?
Craft really needs to be relevant inside combat time, in addition to being one of the strongest support abilities in the game?

And it's not like the concept of a Doombot is novel in any way, shape, or form; for either the GM or the player to use.

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Looking at the stories we're borrowing the word Doombot from, I'd prefer Exalted stay as far away from that concept as possible.

If I ever pulled out this Charm for an NPC, as a storyteller I'd expect one of my players to hit me with the rulebook. Hard, in the face. More than once. They would have good reason.

You know, the "doombot" is similar to Avoidance Kata. Just, it lets you do it further into the scene and at a higher price.

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Yes, and that's why it shouldn't exist. It lets a Solar Sidereal harder than Sidereals. That's not a good thing, that's a problem.

Also, there's a very good reason that Avoidance Kata can only be used at the beginning of a fight. Escaping a fight that's going badly should be harder than just pushing a button, and having a button you don't even need to push is worse.

Avoidance Kata allows a Sidereal to escape a fight by never fighting it. Dual Magnus Prana allows the user to avoid the hidden cost of Avoidance Kata: That Avoidance Kata only protects the user.
Dual Magnus Prana allows a Solar to give her absolute all in a desperate last stand after the Wyld hunt finally pin her down, only to reveal that she was never there. It doesn't require set up, and if it's not needed there's nothing that'll go to waste.

As for the cost, not enough to redeem it in my opinion. We'd condemn Zeal from Ex2 even if it cost 100m, 10wp, 6ahl, 10xp.