Exalted 3E Discussion

[Smuthunter]

Yes, and that's why it shouldn't exist. It lets a Solar Sidereal harder than Sidereals.

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It lets them Sidereal harder than the old Sidereals, who were terrible like most of 2e.

 

[Bre Karn]

I suppose that Dual Magnus Prana could be modified so that the 30 wxp cost must be spent at the beginning of the fight. Only case where the full retcon would be in effect is in the case of a surprise kill.

 

[Valette-Serafina]

It lets them Sidereal harder than the old Sidereals, who were terrible like most of 2e.

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It lets them Sidereal harder than Sidereals should be ever able to Sidereal.

I'll not disagree that Ex2 Sidereals are poor, but they have high points. The system fails them, but some Sidereal Charms are perfect. Avoidance Kata is one such, allowing a Sidereal to escape harm at the cost of being somewhere else.

 

[Anasurimbor]

You know, with the power of Solar Circle workings, I wonder if it's not simply possible for a Solar to create their own Exaltations?

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I think that was the kind of thing that was always possible, in theory. In practice, it's much easier and less costly to just go hire a bunch of Dragon-Blooded. Working out the secret of Exaltation is no quick or easy task, even for one so potent as the Unconquered Sun. At the same time, several beings have clearly manged to independently reinvent his work in well under 5000 years, something that wasn't true in previous editions.

An ambition 3 finesse 5 solar working can turn a mortal into a potent Behemoth or something, but I would say that true Exaltation requires something else. Secret knowledge, enlightenment, sacrifice, specific circumstances, or whatever else feels appropriate. This is especially true if the Exaltation is imperishable, instead of one that will die with its host. It's fine if First Age Solars were beginning to create new Exalted, so long as their creations perished with them. This might have even been one of the reasons the Dragon-Blooded killed them, because they feared being replaced.

Generally I would say that a working is necessary, but not sufficient. An E5 Solar should not be able to Exalt someone every two months. Not without great cost.

This is clearly at the discretion of the ST, though, and quite probably deliberately so. The Exigents book, Heroes of the Niobraran, and also some of the new splats will probably give us a bit more to go on.

 

[Smuthunter]

I think that was the kind of thing that was always possible, in theory. In practice, it's much easier and less costly to just go hire a bunch of Dragon-Blooded. Working out the secret of Exaltation is no quick or easy task, even for one so potent as the Unconquered Sun. At the same time, several beings have clearly manged to independently reinvent his work in well under 5000 years, something that wasn't true in previous editions.

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First, there's the matter of the Law of Diminishment from the Infernals preview, if that's still a thing. A Solar trying to make another exalt would probably permanently diminish himself in some manner. Second, repeating or improving on something that has been done once is generally not as difficult as doing it the first time. It took IRL humans 8000 years to learn how to fly a biplane and only about 60 more after that to build a supersonic jet.

 

[kinglugia]

Maybe make the Solar creating a whole new Exaltation lose 1 or more dots of Permanent Essence, as well as some wxp, perhaps?

 

[Smuthunter]

Maybe make the Solar creating a whole new Exaltation lose 1 or more dots of Permanent Essence, as well as some wxp, perhaps?

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I would say not just lose but also cannot gain back. Your new maximum essence is now 4. Presumably that would prevent you from ever doing it again. For something slightly less crippling, making an Exaltation is a custom essence 6 charm which can only ever be used once and then you permenantly get dropped back down to essence 5.

 

[tehelgee]

I would say not just lose but also cannot gain back. Your new maximum essence is now 4. Presumably that would prevent you from ever doing it again. For something slightly less crippling, making an Exaltation is a custom essence 6 charm which can only ever be used once and then you permenantly get dropped back down to essence 5.

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Nah, that's too costly. The gods that make Exigents do sacrifice a part of themselves, but it's never stated to be a permanent thing. And, since Essence isn't buyable anymore...

So, I'd suggest that a Solar can, at Essence 5, sacrifice something like XP to fuel the creation of a new Exaltation. Spend 20xp and you create a single Terrestrial-level Exaltation. The greater the Finesse, the more details about it you control. At Finesse 1, you can only give a vague outline. At Finesse 3, you can control how it moves to its next host and have more control over its theme. At Finesse 5, you can make it a dynasty Exaltation like the DB, and you have full control to decide its theme and abilities. All with ST approval, obviously.

 

[Smuthunter]

Nah, that's too costly. The gods that make Exigents do sacrifice a part of themselves, but it's never stated to be a permanent thing.

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Gods that invoke the Exigence do so by borrowing power from the Unconquered Sun. Unless your character can do that you should pay a much heftier price.

 

[tehelgee]

Gods that invoke the Exigence do so by borrowing power from the Unconquered Sun. Unless your character can do that you should pay a much heftier price.

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We are of the Sun already. Using Solar Circle IS using the power of the Sun.

 

[Robotninja]

Honestly, with two N/A artifact worth of XP, I imagine you can do far scarier things than a Doombot.

 

[Stroth]

Honestly, with two N/A artifact worth of XP, I imagine you can do far scarier things than a Doombot.

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But you couldn't do a retroactive doombot without that charm. You want to make something that can fake being a Solar? Yeah sure fine. It's a N/A ranked artifact and it won't grow in power like a Solar does, but you could create something that uses Solar essence, it's been done before. The problem is being able to do it retroactively because the entire metaphysycs of Creation have been very carefully tuned to keep anyone from changing the past. It's not just impossible, it's something that Autochthon, Gaia and the Incarne all got together on and made absolutely certain it was impossible.

 

[Smuthunter]

But you couldn't do a retroactive doombot without that charm. You want to make something that can fake being a Solar? Yeah sure fine. It's a N/A ranked artifact and it won't grow in power like a Solar does, but you could create something that uses Solar essence, it's been done before. The problem is being able to do it retroactively because the entire metaphysycs of Creation have been very carefully tuned to keep anyone from changing the past.

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Uh, you don't change the past by using that charm. You just gain the ability to say "the guy you were fighting was a doombot all along. I planned ahead for this!" It's only retroactive from the player's perspective.

 

[Anondylar]

If I were the ST and my players were high essence I'd allow it, Exalted are all about transcending limitations a la 'kick reason to the curb and go beyond the impossible!' logic. I'd then start up a new campaign with each player being the first recipient of their newly forged Exaltations and run with it.

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I wouldn't allow it, not without some hefty permanent cost such as lowering your maximum Essence by say three dots, which carries over to the next exaltation and only heals after ten reincarnations. Because otherwise you get things like DB rape manses.

In other news; I seriously don't get the hate for the Doombot charm, it's totally cool and give crafter/sorcerers something noteworthy and impressive enough to make all their effort feel worthwhile. And it's not like the concept of a Doombot is novel in any way, shape, or form; for either the GM or the player to use.

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Imagine that you just spent two years bringing down a Bad Guy, who had a Direction-Spanning empire. You spent two RL years breaking his infrastructure until you finally kick down the doors of his palace. Your Twilight blows a hundred motes to detect any contingency plans and two Dawns die in combat against him. Your third murderhobo finally sinks her blade into his heart and lolwhoops he wasn't there all along. Twilight spent 200xp specialising in detection and anti-teleportation/anti-escape magic? Fuck her he's a doombot. Characters died to finally bring him down? Fuck them it was all for nothing, btw start from E1 and 0xp again.

Do it in the same campaign two years later again because he's E6 and immortal due to fiat (canonical Sidereal ftw) and fuck you doombot again. TPK campaign's over.

 

[Nervaqus987]

Imagine that you just spent two years bringing down a Bad Guy, who had a Direction-Spanning empire. You spent two RL years breaking his infrastructure until you finally kick down the doors of his palace. Your Twilight blows a hundred motes to detect any contingency plans and two Dawns die in combat against him. Your third murderhobo finally sinks her blade into his heart and lolwhoops he wasn't there all along. Twilight spent 200xp specialising in detection and anti-teleportation/anti-escape magic? Fuck her he's a doombot. Characters died to finally bring him down? Fuck them it was all for nothing, btw start from E1 and 0xp again.

Do it in the same campaign two years later again because he's E6 and immortal due to fiat (canonical Sidereal ftw) and fuck you doombot again. TPK campaign's over.

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..........That's the track you're taking?

Seriously?

Look, if your ST is really the type to do something like that it would A) be apparent long before it actually gets to this point and B) he would do it anyways, regardless of whether or not Dual Magnus Prana was a thing.

The only thing that would be different is how exactly he chooses to justify having his villain escape and you'd be equally incapable of preventing it, regardless of whether he has a Doombot, a Custom Charm/Spell to teleport himself to his undetectable Fortress Manse on the other side of Creation, or whatever.

 

[Valette-Serafina]

Maybe make the Solar creating a whole new Exaltation lose 1 or more dots of Permanent Essence, as well as some wxp, perhaps?

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Nah, that's too costly. The gods that make Exigents do sacrifice a part of themselves, but it's never stated to be a permanent thing. And, since Essence isn't buyable anymore...

So, I'd suggest that a Solar can, at Essence 5, sacrifice something like XP to fuel the creation of a new Exaltation. Spend 20xp and you create a single Terrestrial-level Exaltation. The greater the Finesse, the more details about it you control. At Finesse 1, you can only give a vague outline. At Finesse 3, you can control how it moves to its next host and have more control over its theme. At Finesse 5, you can make it a dynasty Exaltation like the DB, and you have full control to decide its theme and abilities. All with ST approval, obviously.

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... Xp to make an Exaltation. Really.
No. Just...

If it's even possible for five or so Solars to make one, it shouldn't be something that's easier than killing a Deathlord. It's not something that should just involve a few high difficulty rolls, some motes, and two Charms of xp. It's the most significant accomplishment of the Incarne ever, or it was before the devs decided that the Sun should be able to hand them out like candy.

Don't make it that cheap.

..........That's the track you're taking?

Seriously?

Look, if your ST is really the type to do something like that it would A) be apparent long before it actually gets to this point and B) he would do it anyways, regardless of whether or not Dual Magnus Prana was a thing.

The only thing that would be different is how exactly he chooses to justify having his villain escape and you'd be equally incapable of preventing it, regardless of whether he has a Doombot, a Custom Charm/Spell to teleport himself to his undetectable Fortress Manse on the other side of Creation, or whatever.

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There's a difference between a storyteller who's willing to make shit up to have their villain escape, and one who won't but will point at the corebook and cite page number.
Who'll say something like: "Hey, you knew he was a Twilight. Don't blame me for letting him use his abilities."

This Charm should not be in the book. If a player wants a robot double, they can make one normally.
I wouldn't allow a Socialize or Larceny Charm that allowed a Solar to declare that they were retroactively their disguised bodyguard. I do not intend to allow Duel Magnus Prana.

I will be clear. I'd allow a player to make something like the Six Paths of Pain, provided they invested in doing so. I'd require that they spent resources on it, and that they had the necessary infrastructure, but I would allow it.

This is fate-hacking bullshit, though. Solars shouldn't have that.
(I ran across a similarly bullshit Dodge Charm on my readthrough. Retroactively dodging wounds is also bullshit, and also something that Solars shouldn't be able to do. I fear that this edition may be even worse with regards to Solar Focus)

 

[kinglugia]

... Xp to make an Exaltation. Really.
No. Just...

If it's even possible for five or so Solars to make one, it shouldn't be something that's easier than killing a Deathlord. It's not something that should just involve a few high difficulty rolls, some motes, and two Charms of xp. It's the most significant accomplishment of the Incarne ever, or it was before the devs decided that the Sun should be able to hand them out like candy.

Don't make it that cheap.

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I apologize if I offended you with the Exaltation stuff...but I was...um...getting some things wrong?

I will be clear. I'd allow a player to make something like the Six Paths of Pain, provided they invested in doing so. I'd require that they spent resources on it, and that they had the necessary infrastructure, but I would allow it.

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Six Paths of Pain are considered Artifact N/A per Path, correct? Or are they considered N/A as a group, and Artifact 5 per Path?

 

[Valette-Serafina]

Six Paths of Pain are considered Artifact N/A per Path, correct? Or are they considered N/A as a group, and Artifact 5 per Path?

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5 Each, requiring the body of an Exalt as a base material and requiring a significant amount of the Magical Materials, in addition to an Elemental or Demon to bind within the body and the controller simultaneously so as to provide a method of connecting to the Path.
The interface that the user must remain within to control the Paths should also be an Artifact 5.

Is how I'd do it.

Using a different Craft System.

 

[kinglugia]

5 Each, requiring the body of an Exalt as a base material and requiring a significant amount of the Magical Materials, in addition to an Elemental or Demon to bind within the body and the controller simultaneously so as to provide a method of connecting to the Path.
The interface that the user must remain within to control the Paths should also be an Artifact 5.

Is how I'd do it.

Using a different Craft System.

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Hmm...then I must ask you something - by combining Sorcerous workings and Craft system...is it possible to create a miniaturized version of the Daystar?

And if so, how would you go at it?

 

[Darkened]

Honestly, with two N/A artifact worth of XP, I imagine you can do far scarier things than a Doombot.

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A single artifact NA costs 5wxp+10xp/roll. Unless you can net 205 successes on one roll, you're not going to finish an artifact NA in 15wxp.

God-Forge Within cuts out the need to buy legendary project slots, so Dual Magnus Prana is roughly equivilent to three rolls on an artifact NA, ones that aren't boosted by any of the many craft charms that cost wxp.

 

[Darkened]

Hmm...then I must ask you something - by combining Sorcerous workings and Craft system...is it possible to create a miniaturized version of the Daystar?

And if so, how would you go at it?

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Workings have flat difficulty.

First, there's the matter of the Law of Diminishment from the Infernals preview, if that's still a thing. A Solar trying to make another exalt would probably permanently diminish himself in some manner. Second, repeating or improving on something that has been done once is generally not as difficult as doing it the first time. It took IRL humans 8000 years to learn how to fly a biplane and only about 60 more after that to build a supersonic jet.

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It's only an ambition 3 solar working to edit the law of diminishment out of existence and then go about it.

More seriously, sorcerous workings really really need, at the bare minimum, more in the way of limitations guiding what they can and can't do.

The three rules were great when sorcery was a bag of effects that were basically charms. Having freeform sorcery that can do anything and not putting any more limits in becomes somewhat iffy.

 

[EnderofWorlds]

I wouldn't allow it, not without some hefty permanent cost such as lowering your maximum Essence by say three dots, which carries over to the next exaltation and only heals after ten reincarnations. Because otherwise you get things like DB rape manses.

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See, thing thing with what I said is that the Solars who made the Exaltation wouldn't be the PCs anymore; at that point I'd tell the players to make their Exaltations and then go make a character for them, cause that's what they're playing as for the next game. A set of Exalts made by this Solar Circle, who've made them for extra manpower and etc etc insert new plot hook here.

I seriously don't get it; Exalted were specifically made to do the impossible, but the moment someone suggest they actually, do the impossible as dictated in setting, they throw a fit. As a ST, I'd be totally fine with my Solar Circle eventually figuring time-travel, resurrection, and forging their own Exaltations; provided they make it fun and interesting, and it's done at a point where they feel sufficiently powerful for it.

Imagine that you just spent two years bringing down a Bad Guy, who had a Direction-Spanning empire. You spent two RL years breaking his infrastructure until you finally kick down the doors of his palace. Your Twilight blows a hundred motes to detect any contingency plans and two Dawns die in combat against him. Your third murderhobo finally sinks her blade into his heart and lolwhoops he wasn't there all along. Twilight spent 200xp specialising in detection and anti-teleportation/anti-escape magic? Fuck her he's a doombot. Characters died to finally bring him down? Fuck them it was all for nothing, btw start from E1 and 0xp again.

Do it in the same campaign two years later again because he's E6 and immortal due to fiat (canonical Sidereal ftw) and fuck you doombot again. TPK campaign's over.

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First off: If you need two years to take down the main antagonist of your campaign, then I have no idea what to say except either you or the GM are slow-rolling the shit out of the campaign, or they've already pulled off the Doombot ploy months ago. Because I've tried to have a central antagonist stay active for that long, and it's pretty much impossible; players balking at having to deal with the same fucker for that long, that eventually they pull off ridiculously stupid shit to make them go away for good.

Second off: The charm is in the Exalted equivalent of the player handbook; as in, this is a tool for players to use and enjoy at their leisure once they've hit that level with their character. All the arguments I see against this charm are all in the perspective of it being a tool for the ST to screw you over, and honestly? It's the ST, they can fuck you over plenty without this charm, so what's the difference?

Third: In your aforementioned scenario, now is the time for the Investigation/Spy guy to deduce where the hell the bad guy actually is, followed by recouping your losses and hitting them when they least expect it. It's hardly backbreaking to pull off a doombot on players and they can and will find a way around it if it's really that bad.

 

[tehelgee]

All it takes is the dude with Awareness 5 and Investigation 5 to inspect the doombot, and then you know every goddamned thing about it and its user.

The doombot trick is something a villain can only pull off against a Solar circle once, because that's epic. It's old and busted after that.

 

[Valette-Serafina]

Hmm...then I must ask you something - by combining Sorcerous workings and Craft system...is it possible to create a miniaturized version of the Daystar?

And if so, how would you go at it?

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Probably.
You'd need a smaller version of the Sun, though. They're kinda a set.

See, thing thing with what I said is that the Solars who made the Exaltation wouldn't be the PCs anymore; at that point I'd tell the players to make their Exaltations and then go make a character for them, cause that's what they're playing as for the next game. A set of Exalts made by this Solar Circle, who've made them for extra manpower and etc etc insert new plot hook here.

I seriously don't get it; Exalted were specifically made to do the impossible, but the moment someone suggest they actually, do the impossible as dictated in setting, they throw a fit. As a ST, I'd be totally fine with my Solar Circle eventually figuring time-travel, resurrection, and forging their own Exaltations; provided they make it fun and interesting, and it's done at a point where they feel sufficiently powerful for it.

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Three reasons: First is the theme of consequence. Exalted's not all Daiklave surfing and the like, there's also a theme of the consequence of power and action.

Time Travel lets a character change the past, undo things and erase mistakes. It lets the general who burned down the library of Alexandra find the last copy of a book he needs after burning it.
Resurrection lessens death. Look at raise dead in D&D. That's not what Exalted wants.

Second: It cheapens the setting. Making Exalted is supposed to be a grand thing, something special. Setting aside the worst comic in Ex2(In Alchemicals), Exaltation is a miracle, something truly precious.
Making Exalted is to stand alongside the Incarne, to do as they once did alongside Autocthon. The end of a story, because if the players could do that, their characters shouldn't be concerned with anything in the setting anymore.

Third: The Exalted weren't created to do the impossible, they were created to defeat the invincible and did so by killing the unkillable.

 

[Biigoh]

Actually the bii had a game where the solar pcs did just that. They managed to travel back in time to pre-history and managed to whoops the primordial war away in a series of incidents that alerted the primordials of the rebellion.


The solar responsible was a twilight with stupid amounts of XP and a 2nd circle demon ally/mentor and more than happy to break the setting... he was very much a green sun prince in all but name.

 

[tehelgee]

The solar responsible was a twilight with stupid amounts of XP and a 2nd circle demon ally/mentor and more than happy to break the setting... he was very much a green sun prince in all but name.

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Those are called Akuma.

 

[kinglugia]

Actually the bii had a game where the solar pcs did just that. They managed to travel back in time to pre-history and managed to whoops the primordial war away in a series of incidents that alerted the primordials of the rebellion.


The solar responsible was a twilight with stupid amounts of XP and a 2nd circle demon ally/mentor and more than happy to break the setting... he was very much a green sun prince in all but name.

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But...I thought that you can't time travel...?

 

[Stroth]

But...I thought that you can't time travel...?

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You can't. The Primordials used to be able to, which is why history before they were sealed away is vague at best. No one has any idea how long the war between the Exalts and the Primordials lasted, much less how long things happened before that. An Important part of the Surrender Agreement signed by the Yozi is that it completely forbids any sort of time travel except under incredibly specific circumstances and even then is limited to five days at most. And that only works in Malfeas because after the war everyone in charge sat down with the Loom of Fate and made damn sure that everything could only go in one direction.

 

[Anasurimbor]

More seriously, sorcerous workings really really need, at the bare minimum, more in the way of limitations guiding what they can and can't do.

The three rules were great when sorcery was a bag of effects that were basically charms. Having freeform sorcery that can do anything and not putting any more limits in becomes somewhat iffy.

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Yeah, the rules, while nice, are more than a little vague, particularly at the high end. Figuring out what you can do with a terrestrial working is not too bad, but high ambition solar workings leave a huge amount to ST discretion. I assume they will eventually introduce more detailed rules, but until then we have to guess. Was the Salinian Working a single working or a hundred closely related ones? The latter seems more reasonable, but it's hard to say.

The other big problem is that getting 75 successes is not that hard for an essence 5 Solar with Heaven-Turning Calculations who has a stunt and spends willpower. Even finesse 5 doesn't meaningfully change this. Completing 5 workings a year is entirely reasonable.

 

[tehelgee]

Was the Salinian Working a single working or a hundred closely related ones? The latter seems more reasonable, but it's hard to say.

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Given the description of how they work? It was a single working, since all it did was permit anyone that put in the effort to be able to learn Sorcery.