Exalted 3E Discussion

[Nervaqus987]

But...I thought that you can't time travel...?

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So?

Just because something can't be done according to the books doesn't mean you can't do it at your own table and no Canon Ninjas are gonna jump out of your tea cup to beat you to death with a rule book for your offense.

 

[EnderofWorlds]

Three reasons: First is the theme of consequence. Exalted's not all Daiklave surfing and the like, there's also a theme of the consequence of power and action.

Time Travel lets a character change the past, undo things and erase mistakes. It lets the general who burned down the library of Alexandra find the last copy of a book he needs after burning it.
Resurrection lessens death. Look at raise dead in D&D. That's not what Exalted wants.

Second: It cheapens the setting. Making Exalted is supposed to be a grand thing, something special. Setting aside the worst comic in Ex2(In Alchemicals), Exaltation is a miracle, something truly precious.
Making Exalted is to stand alongside the Incarne, to do as they once did alongside Autocthon. The end of a story, because if the players could do that, their characters shouldn't be concerned with anything in the setting anymore.

Third: The Exalted weren't created to do the impossible, they were created to defeat the invincible and did so by killing the unkillable.

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And Autocthon explicitly realized that the Exalted were more than he had imagined or intended (fitting his theme of violating boundaries) and summarily abandoned ship to save his sorry ass from being fucked with by Solars. Exalted were made to be killing machines, but became so much more; as is fitting for something made by Autobot. Not to mention that resurrection and time travel can have consequences of their own.

 

[Biigoh]

But...I thought that you can't time travel...?

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So?


Just because something can't be done according to the books doesn't mean you can't do it at your own table and no Canon Ninjas are gonna jump out of your tea cup to beat you to death with a rule book for your offense.

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The twilight broke reality sufficiently that he got a demense that used to be a level 5 manse that linked the present and pre-history....

He got curious and together with his 2nd circle demon ally, whose theme was gateways... broke reality EVEN more with experiments that mortal men were not meant to think of, and opened a pathway between the present and the past that he could travel down (it was a 1 way trip) much like the Broken Winged Crane book... only worse. And in doing so, he changed history so that the exalted host never existed as the spirit rebellion was suffocated in its infancy... and he's the only solar around.

The game kind of ended as he took the "long" way back to the future.

 

[kinglugia]

Ah, I see...

 

[Anasurimbor]

Given the description of how they work? It was a single working, since all it did was permit anyone that put in the effort to be able to learn Sorcery.

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It did quite a bit more than that, but I would argue that even this change is not sufficiently subtle to be implemented in a single go. A combination of workings can bring about such an effect, but a single one is far, far more subtle.

Ultimately, it comes down to whether you think Salina's masterwork should be trivially undoable by a bored Twilight over a summer holiday.

 

[Plotvitalnpc]

Probably.
You'd need a smaller version of the Sun, though. They're kinda a set.

Three reasons: First is the theme of consequence. Exalted's not all Daiklave surfing and the like, there's also a theme of the consequence of power and action.

Time Travel lets a character change the past, undo things and erase mistakes. It lets the general who burned down the library of Alexandra find the last copy of a book he needs after burning it.
Resurrection lessens death. Look at raise dead in D&D. That's not what Exalted wants.

Second: It cheapens the setting. Making Exalted is supposed to be a grand thing, something special. Setting aside the worst comic in Ex2(In Alchemicals), Exaltation is a miracle, something truly precious.
Making Exalted is to stand alongside the Incarne, to do as they once did alongside Autocthon. The end of a story, because if the players could do that, their characters shouldn't be concerned with anything in the setting anymore.

Third: The Exalted weren't created to do the impossible, they were created to defeat the invincible and did so by killing the unkillable.

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Don't forget, true resurrection is completely contrary to how life and death work in creation.

Three days after death, the parts of the soul split apart, the Hun going to be scrubbed clean of memories and immediately reborn, the Po starting to rot as it guards the body, and the exaltation, if there is one, going back home to get ready to exalt a new person within a few weeks.

Within mere days of death the things that made a person that person are in one of a few states.
Being restored to factory default and now a baby, or otherwise lingering in the underworld, banned from being alive again without accepting the former fate, Rotting away to naught but energy, or finding a new job. That depends on what part they are, of course.

There's also the situations where the non-exaltation things no longer exist.
Like, at all.

 

[kinglugia]

...So does that mean, pardon my ignorance...if we...ah...resurrect someone within 3 days of his/her/zes death, it counts as True Resurrection?

 

[Plotvitalnpc]

...So does that mean, pardon my ignorance...if we...ah...resurrect someone within 3 days of his/her/zes death, it counts as True Resurrection?

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I'd rule that that's resuscitation, not resurrection.

 

[Stroth]

...So does that mean, pardon my ignorance...if we...ah...resurrect someone within 3 days of his/her/zes death, it counts as True Resurrection?

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No. Once the souls begin separating there's no way to stop it.

 

[Smuthunter]

No. Once the souls begin separating there's no way to stop it.

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Depends on the table. While I agree that in general "actions have consequences" is a good thing, the idea of a player undertaking an Orphean quest into the Underworld to resurrect a loved one inside of a time limit is pretty epic (It should also not be something that is written into the game books because then there's an implication that anyone can do it, not just this one guy at this one table where the ST made it possible).

 

[Heaven Canceler]

I'd say they're a little more than God-Blooded, but not by much. More like Exigents that came about because numbers were needed and their patrons(the Dragons) cut a deal with Ignis Divine.

I have always wondered, what kind of effect would it be if the ten thousand number wasn't just hyperbole and was literal? Meaning, there were never more or less than 10k DB at any time? How would that have changed history?

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Were there ever that many at any Point? I thought the Dragonblooded only managed to take down the Solars because they drowned them out with sheer overwhelming numbers. So probably a few 100 per Solar or something? Solars are pretty ridiculous from what I know, especially the older ones from the Age back.

Isn't the Exaltation of Dragonblooded decided by some Kind of blood-purity/power Thing? Say, if someone found a way to empower the blood of everyone in Creation (Because I think the Dragonblooded bloodlines are now all over Creation from what I heard) so as to qualify most everyone for a Dragonblooded Exaltation.

Also, are there actually exactly 10.000 Dragonblooded Exaltations?

Edit: How big is the Overall Population in Exalted anyway?

 

[tehelgee]

Were there ever that many at any Point? I thought the Dragonblooded only managed to take down the Solars because they drowned them out with sheer overwhelming numbers. So probably a few 100 per Solar or something? Solars are pretty ridiculous from what I know, especially the older ones from the Age back.

Isn't the Exaltation of Dragonblooded decided by some Kind of blood-purity/power Thing? Say, if someone found a way to empower the blood of everyone in Creation (Because I think the Dragonblooded bloodlines are now all over Creation from what I heard) so as to qualify most everyone for a Dragonblooded Exaltation.

Also, are there actually exactly 10.000 Dragonblooded Exaltations?

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Theoretically, there are an unlimited number of DB Exaltations, because unlike the Celestial Exalts, DB's don't have a defined shard. When a DB dies, their Exaltation doesn't fly off to Exalt someone else, it disperses into the world. There's no sharing memories down a line of incarnations for DB like there is for Celestials.

And the Usurpation succeeded due to Sidereal assistance and using tactics like poison, ambush, etc.

EDIT: And, yes, Exaltation is a chance thing determined by their Breeding background/merit, with the blood being thinned out a real problem for the Realm. Or it was in 2E. Dunno about 3E.

 

[Heaven Canceler]

Theoretically, there are an unlimited number of DB Exaltations, because unlike the Celestial Exalts, DB's don't have a defined shard. When a DB dies, their Exaltation doesn't fly off to Exalt someone else, it disperses into the world. There's no sharing memories down a line of incarnations for DB like there is for Celestials.

And the Usurpation succeeded due to Sidereal assistance and using tactics like poison, ambush, etc.

EDIT: And, yes, Exaltation is a chance thing determined by their Breeding background/merit, with the blood being thinned out a real problem for the Realm. Or it was in 2E. Dunno about 3E.

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So.... how were the first Dragonblooded originally made by the Elemental Dragons? Could you make the Blood somehow thick again, maybe with the help of the Elemental Dragons? If there is no Limit to the number of the Exaltations for Dragonblooded, does that mean there could theretically be a unlimited number of Dragonblooded so Long as Blood and Merit are sufficient?

Also, I edited that in the last post too late, but how big is the Population of Creation anyway?

I wonder how different history of Creation would be if the Dragonblooded outnumbered Solars by the thousands and thousands with ease.

 

[tehelgee]

So.... how were the first Dragonblooded originally made by the Elemental Dragons? Could you make the Blood somehow thick again, maybe with the help of the Elemental Dragons? If there is no Limit to the number of the Exaltations for Dragonblooded, does that mean there could theretically be a unlimited number of Dragonblooded so Long as Blood and Merit are sufficient?

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Even with perfect breeding, a DB Exaltation isn't guaranteed, but it's better than 50/50.

And the game has never hinted at their being an upper limit on active DB Exaltations.

Also, I edited that in the last post too late, but how big is the Population of Creation anyway?

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Right now, dunno. I'd guess maybe 50-100 million. And that's after losing like... 90% of Creation to the Balorian Crusade.

I wonder how different history of Creation would be if the Dragonblooded outnumbered Solars by the thousands and thousands with ease.

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A thousand to one? No, they weren't that many. But there were thousands to the Solar's 300.

 

[Stroth]

Also, are there actually exactly 10.000 Dragonblooded Exaltations?

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That's the traditional number used to refer to them because that was the first batch. Autochthon and the Elemental Dragons empowered ten thousand mortals as Dragonbloods. (One hundred men and nine thousand nine hundred women. Yeah, there's a reason Dragonbloods have enhanced stamina).

That is, so far as anyone can tell, the single smallest population of Dragonbloods that has ever existed though.

 

[Heaven Canceler]

A thousand to one? No, they weren't that many. But there were thousands to the Solar's 300.

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Well yes, I guessed as much, I just wondered how different history would have been if they had outnumbered the Solars that much and still did so. I also wondered if there was a way to thicken the blood enough to give most People in Creation the 50/50 Chance for DB Exaltation.

Edit: Wait, there are more than 10.000 today? Everyone was talking like there not nearly as many as of present time Exalted.

 

[Smuthunter]

Well yes, I guessed as much, I just wondered how different history would have been if they had outnumbered the Solars that much and still did so. I also wondered if there was a way to thicken the blood enough to give most People in Creation the 50/50 Chance for DB Exaltation.

Edit: Wait, there are more than 10.000 today? Everyone was talking like there not nearly as many as of present time Exalted.

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Not as many as there used to be. In the first age there were probably millions of them. Most of those got killed off by the solars or the contagion or the Baloran Crusade.

 

[tehelgee]

I may have underestimated how many DB there are, then.

 

[Nekraa]

*Nekraa sighs*

So little time, so many things to do. Would've wanted to try to run (or play in) a game with 3E. Looks fun.

 

[Plotvitalnpc]

I may have underestimated how many DB there are, then.

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Well, in the First Age there might have been BILLIONS of people.

 

[Smuthunter]

I may have underestimated how many DB there are, then.

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Yeah, in 2e it was described as a really big deal that dragons didn't breed with anyone except other dragons for most of the first age and their kids only stopped having a 100% exaltation rate once they started breeding with mortals. 10,000 dragons with big libidos and probably harems of wives times however many kids times however long the first age lasted means lots and lots of baby dragons.

 

[Plotvitalnpc]

Yeah, in 2e it was described as a really big deal that dragons didn't breed with anyone except other dragons for most of the first age and their kids only stopped having a 100% exaltation rate once they started breeding with mortals. 10,000 dragons with big libidos and probably harems of wives times however many kids times however long the first age lasted means lots and lots of baby dragons.

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Yes to harems, per the canon line. Like, 9900 women, 100 men, that was the demographic breakdown of the original batch.

Personally, I prefer the idea that the decline of the bloodline isn't actually entirely on the shoulders of DBs breeding with mortals. I also don't love the idea that the Dragonblooded Great Curse doesn't do...anything, really. Combining those two frustrations, I came up with the idea that the Dragonblooded Great Curse is a curse on bloodlines, not individuals. The rate at which a dragonblood has children has a negative effect on their success rate with passing on 'the dragon's blood'. It never recovers completely, but it's almost entirely back to how it was about five years after the conception. I'm not entirely clear on how much it effects the success rate and degree of inheritance, but I feel like it's a more interesting collapse to their purity and less irritating than the current 'DB women weaken and die from frequent pregnancy, but the men can be manwhores with thousands of illegitimate children of similar Breeding' paradigm.

When the Great Curse fell upon the DB, they knew it not, and so they kept breeding with reckless abandon, the men fathering dozens of children and the women birthing year after year, and the purity of their children suffered. The only explanation anyone could imagine for this was that Dragonblooded women were sleeping with mortal men, and in the middle of this mess, it actually started to happen in noticeable numbers.

 

[Nekraa]

The whole "The first Dragonblooded always exalted when they were Pure" is something dislike to some degree.

Not really something I can justify, it's a feeling. But it makes the whole exaltation which is something "awesome" into something "mundane" to the early Dragonblooded.

And then they even blew the simple directions "don't breed with non-Dragonblooded" :<

Well, in some cases maybe there was no real choice if they wanted the bloodline to continue? Hm, could be an interesting backstory for a Dragonblooded, from a branch of a house that hasn't had any Dragonblooded for generations, and suddenly she (or he) takes the Second Breath. The pride of the family, but also with sudden obligations and great weight of expectations.

 

[tehelgee]

EDIT: And, yes, Exaltation is a chance thing determined by their Breeding background/merit, with the blood being thinned out a real problem for the Realm. Or it was in 2E. Dunno about 3E.

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I found the 2e rules on how to determine if a DB Exalts.

Roll 1d10, and according to lineage, the character will Exalt if it rolls the target number or less.

For two patricians descended from DBs, 1-2.
For one DB parent and a mortal of poor stock, 1-3.
For one DB parent and patrician of good stock, 1-4.
For two DB parents, 1-6.
Each parent with Breeding 4 adds 1.
Each parent with Breeding 5 adds 2.
Conceived in manse with 'Dragon Nest' ability adds 1.
Brought to term in manse with 'Dragon Nest' adds 2.

So, as you can see, the numbers can be stacked to actually guaranteed a DB Exaltation. I was under the impression that it couldn't.

 

[Plotvitalnpc]

I found the 2e rules on how to determine if a DB Exalts.

Roll 1d10, and according to lineage, the character will Exalt if it rolls the target number or less.

For two patricians descended from DBs, 1-2.
For one DB parent and a mortal of poor stock, 1-3.
For one DB parent and patrician of good stock, 1-4.
For two DB parents, 1-6.
Each parent with Breeding 4 adds 1.
Each parent with Breeding 5 adds 2.
Conceived in manse with 'Dragon Nest' ability adds 1.
Brought to term in manse with 'Dragon Nest' adds 2.

So, as you can see, the numbers can be stacked to actually guaranteed a DB Exaltation. I was under the impression that it couldn't.

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Exaltation is also guaranteed if the mother is an elemental.
Also guaranteed: piss poor breeding and a dead elemental.

There are some questionable ass rules about dragonblooded exaltation.

 

[tehelgee]

Exaltation is also guaranteed if the mother is an elemental.
Also guaranteed: piss poor breeding and a dead elemental.

There are some questionable ass rules about dragonblooded exaltation.

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How is Breeding determined, anyway? Average of the parents? I know there are Charms that can improve it.

 

[Plotvitalnpc]

How is Breeding determined, anyway? Average of the parents? I know there are Charms that can improve it.

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I honestly don't know how you're normally meant to determine it.

 

[Anondylar]

There was also a SMA that could induce pregnancy, IIRC.

 

[UrsaTempest]

Well, I honestly dislike 'breed with elemental for 100% chance of DB Exalting!' since presumably, The Realm and Lookshy will do so if that were the case, or there'll be more encouragement to, ah, dally with elemental.

Unless there is horrible, or bad long-term side-effect that's not mentioned, anyway,

Regarding Exigent, I believe it is mentioned somewhere it's main purpose is to fulfill Devil-Tiger role - specifically, having custom Exalted that's unique. More specifically, solving the problem of 'Well, I've written this awesome DT charmset, but I'll need to wait 100+ years if I want to use vanilla setting...'.

Mind you, you can probably persuade your ST to run AU Exalted setting to accommodate your DT as starting character, but speaking as ST, that's frankly too much work. The easiest I can do is your patron Primordial just spawned and decided to Exalt said character, or s/he is part of Yozis. Any other options required rather hefty world-building.

Contrast this with Exigent: There is really no need to rewrite the setting. Simply plop the character, and done!

 

[Smuthunter]

Well, I honestly dislike 'breed with elemental for 100% chance of DB Exalting!' since presumably, The Realm and Lookshy will do so if that were the case, or there'll be more encouragement to, ah, dally with elemental.

Unless there is horrible, or bad long-term side-effect that's not mentioned, anyway,

Regarding Exigent, I believe it is mentioned somewhere it's main purpose is to fulfill Devil-Tiger role - specifically, having custom Exalted that's unique. More specifically, solving the problem of 'Well, I've written this awesome DT charmset, but I'll need to wait 100+ years if I want to use vanilla setting...'.

Mind you, you can probably persuade your ST to run AU Exalted setting to accommodate your DT as starting character, but speaking as ST, that's frankly too much work. The easiest I can do is your patron Primordial just spawned and decided to Exalt said character, or s/he is part of Yozis. Any other options required rather hefty world-building.

Contrast this with Exigent: There is really no need to rewrite the setting. Simply plop the character, and done!

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That loses out on a critical part of the experience of being a DT though. Exigents presumably cannot say "Fuck you God X, I wanna be the Exalted of Y." It isn't just the Infernals gaining custom charms which is cool, it's them reforging the very themes of their Exaltation in a manner which was explicitly not intended to be possible, and doing so while fucking over the yozis, shattering the chains on their Exaltations, and becoming baby primordials to replace their predecessors. It's stamping your goddamn name on your cosmic power source and leaving your charmset behind as a monument to yourself for future Infernals.