You might perhaps note that E's Health Levels are more complex to track than D&D's hit points, and must also be tracked. I might also point at Essence, for that matter.
And?
I'm well aware. That doesn't mean they should be omitted from consideration.
I have a question for the two of you. Is there anything at all you like about 3rd Edition? Because from what I've seen, the answer is no.
The new anima banners.
Constant mote regeneration. (I hacked Ex2 with a houserule that does that.)
Craft, so you won't care about what's wrong with the system.
But then, you like E
to 2E or 2.5E. For all the complaints about having to track initiative on top of everything else, the fact remains that the initiative based combat is 1. Not difficult to track, 2. Genuinely dynamic and exciting, and 3. neatly avoids the issues that come with bad touches and rocket tag combat. The benefits far outweigh the book-keeping, and furthermore tracking initiative is much, much simpler than tracking Ticks and Speed in combat, so I still think E has less book-keeping.
I've seen it. It isn't, and that's a low bar it's failing to clear.
Craft. Martial Arts.
. It's much less painful than I expect.I tried doing white room combat simulation in E
Granted, I don't use any charms - it is as basic as they come. Gonna see how it hold up in play.
That's an argument that's been made before, in this very thread. It's not the case. This is a system of game mechanics, like any other system of game mechanics. More precisely, it is a Storyteller system. I know how Storyteller systems work.
Only for people that don't have enough experience playing. There's plenty of people with enough gaming experience to see where the problems are in a system without having to sit down and play it out.
Not really. Ticks are a different style, and speed is a bit of a hassle, but Initiative has more moving parts.
That's not really a positive.
Yes, that's the point. It was imperfectly executed, but that was the intention behind it. It resulted in a bloody mess, yes. It was complicated and clunky, and took time to teach. Still less complicated.
Initiative is a spendable resource. Many charms have an Initiative cost. Initiative can change during a round, altering turn order. Taking a hit can alter turn order. Counterattacks can alter turn order.
It would be, if it were true. It is not.
Not bad. Complicated. Difficult.
And done. ↑↑↑
Is two higher than one? If yes, then E
is slower than Ex2. If no, then you've somehow disproved basic mathematics. has access to a new mechanic: Partial rerolling. This introduces another step into attack resolution.No, I will not waste my time putting together a group to test a game that's broken to the very core. I see no reason to start putting together fixes for E
when I have decent fixes for Ex2.
Is two higher than one? If yes, then E
Almost every ability in E
No, I will not waste my time putting together a group to test a game that's broken to the very core. I see no reason to start putting together fixes for E
Are you still trying to defend E
? Because your words apply equally well to it."My sword is speed four. When I make an attack, it will be four ticks until I can act again."
True in some ways, but you're missing the point. There are no turns in Ex2's tick system, only actions. Some actions should be faster.
's Initiative system.No, Soulsteel. Mote recovery and added Accuracy. Of course, paying twice the commitment cost was something of a discouragement to using the wrong magical material.
If you'd looked up a matter of centimetres, you'd have see my words. You quoted them. "between 3 and 7".
And never the twain shall meet, but should they then it'd be rather simple to remember that a long tick is ten short ticks. Of course, Ex2's mass combat was a mess and social combat was a mistake.
Why would you want to? Some kind of sorcery? Activating an ancient First Age defence system?
Yes. This is why Ex2's combat system is a poor choice for new players, who can't recall what their character can do out of hand.
's was supposed to be better.No, that's where the fun comes in. This is a niche system, unsuited for general use.
You're trying to draw one argument away from the point it was aimed at, but sure. Is two higher than one?
is slower than Ex2.Oh, yes, I forgot all the people who're going to play Exalted without any Exalted. Or Spirits. Or mortal martial artists- Oh, yeah. Those aren't a thing in E
, are they?Already covered that.
Perhaps you missed the thrust of this argument, then. Or maybe you didn't recognise it.
Craft.
Yes. It did. Fixes for that have been considered, attempted, and reworked for years. It's still an ongoing problem with the system.
has not achieved that.The game's most notable flaws are visible from character creation.
I'll step in to repeat: Action, not turn. Your way of thinking may have something to do with the difficulty you're having. It's not "the next turn", but "the character's next action".
Which E
does at the beginning of every turn? I mean, certainly, if the players are too bored to keep track of their next action tick, the system won't work. It kinda relies on every player wanting to play.This is, of course, equivalent to forgetting to declare their initiative. That aside, speed can change once between a characters actions, and only once: When they pick their action. Initiative changes more often.
No. Only one of those things determines tick speed: What actions are taken. Speed is not affected by rolls of any sort after Join Battle, Speed is not affected by any other character's action, and Speed is not affected by any character acting before or after the character.
Yes, a single shift in Initiative.
Yes. This is why Ex2's combat system is a poor choice for new players, who can't recall what their character can do out of hand.
E
The fun was lacking for a great deal of people, even the ones who played Exalted for years and were familiar with the intricacies of tick combat.
You're trying to draw one argument away from the point it was aimed at, but sure. Is two higher than one?
Initiative changes more often. More changes mean more notekeeping, mean more time spent tracking turn order.
If two is higher than one, then E
. You only need the final initiative value after resolving an action. For tick combat you need two pieces of information: what tick did a player act on AND what speed was their action. Additionally, a player needs to figure out which characters get an action during the intervening time between their current tick and their next tick.Oh, yes, I forgot all the people who're going to play Exalted without any Exalted. Or Spirits. Or mortal martial artists- Oh, yeah. Those aren't a thing in E
Either Players should have ways to defend themselves, or not. If players can protect themselves, then NPCs can too. Finding a solid balance is something very difficult for a system, and E
Which E
more complicated. I'm expecting to get to that later, but if I don't I'll do a pretend ninja edit back up here. whoever 'wins' the join battle roll goes first. So nothing there is changed. And then based on the difference in the number of successes the number of ticks until the next person's first action is determined, and so on, until all parties are accounted for. This is what I feel is the most complicated part of tick combat is. And this round turn order is simpler in E, given that you just start at the highest init and work you're way down until everyone is listed. rules in front of me) I presume some actions might cost initiative. on a weekly basis, all I need is a player's initial Initiative values. From there, I can track how combat shifts pretty easily as long as I have a pencil or a word doc. But I can guarantee to you that, if you can keep track of all the combat resolution steps in 2.5E, you can definitely handle how E does it. It's just that one form of attack hits initiative, and another form of attack hits HP.
You seem to be confusing editions. That's E
.For every single character in the fight, yes.
No, it doesn't. You do, but the system doesn't. The tick an action took place on doesn't matter in the slightest. Only the next tick the character will act on.
Congratulations, you found one of the flaws of the system. Mote recovery.
I'm sorry, are we talking about Ex2? Because the Ex2 I know had things called penalty negators. Also perfect defences, but if we're talking meta then they'd only show up in step 7.
Hence niche.
Okay, you want to play that game?But you don't need more notekeeping for E
, four pieces of information must change: The current Initiative of both combatants, and their place in the turn order. These things may change again before either character's next action.A player doesn't, no. That's the Storyteller's job. A player may, but it's not obligatory.
, by the way.I'm such a fool, I completely forgot that Excellent Strike isn't a constantly applicable charm that's easy to grab for any character who feels like dipping into Melee. It certainly doesn't have simple but constantly helpful effects that scale up the more dice are being rolled, and three motes is totally unaffordable.Oh, silly me, I forgot that my Melee Dawn always used all thirty of their melee charms on every single attack, as opposed to only maybe two or three at a time
Combat does, but sure. Dismiss Craft as a niche ability, rather than a core subsystem.
views it, why does it have so much focus? There are far more Craft Charms than there are Investigation charms. There's no Investigation subsystem. No Lore subsystem. There's no Disguise subsystem, no system tracking a Crew for sail, no business management for Bureaucracy. craft is a broken mess, but it earned how many pages to explain all the hoops a player needs to jump through? How many Charms to bypass all the artificial limits?. Try again.Those aren't new.
You're holding up some of the most terrible bullshit the E
devs have pulled as if it's a badge of pride. If nothing else, you can spin.They're interchangeable if they start with the same thing. "the" or "your character's". One is universal, the other is personal.
...Ah. That's it, huh. You're taking...
...And once again, you take a quality as a flaw.
Because it's doing two things at once, perhaps? Regardless, no. It doesn't.
And that matters how, exactly? The changes still take place, turn order is still adjusted, and that doesn't stop once most of the character have taken their actions.
Perhaps you'd like to stop picking problems that apply to E
as much as they do to Ex2 when you're trying to argue for the system?Fifty actions. Not fifty ticks, fifty actions. Ticks do not change turn order.
