Exalted 3E Discussion

[Bre Karn]

Explain. Genuinely curious.

I mean isn't one of the tactics against the Exalted is to attack them with an army that hits them with everything like arrows and so on.

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Some rains of projectiles and explosions are modelized as environmental hazard. There was one of those Essence 5+ Thrown Solar Charms (forgot the name, was it Maelstrom of Celestial Brilliance?) was described as 'thousand of blades of Essence lacerating spacetime itself' and modelized as an environmental hazard.
Some swarm attacks (IIRC an insect/scarab spirit, can't recall which book) were also modelized as environmental hazard.

Basically, 'death of a thousand papercuts' only works if they are applied one at a time

 

[Nervaqus987]

OTOH, there has been dev talk about an Exalted x WoD crossover book, but not a peep of that since a couple of years at least AFAIK?

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How the hell would that work ?

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It was mentioned back when the E Kickstarter was running. In a this Skype convo that the Devs were having about future plans and such as one of the Rewards, they mentioned the possibility of doing an Exalted X WoD crossover. They also mentioned it as being an off the cuff sort of thing that they were chatting about between themselves and haven't even tossed the proposal up the proper channels.

They mentioned if they did so, they would create a distinct system for the book itself. They also jokingly mentioned that the cover would have one of those movie poster stare down fights between the Unconquered Sun and Caine.

I sincerely hope it never comes to pass.

 

[Valette-Serafina]

Explain. Genuinely curious.

I mean isn't one of the tactics against the Exalted is to attack them with an army that hits them with everything like arrows and so on.

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Yes, but from distinct sources. Each arrow isn't necessarily an attack, but outside of mass combat every archer is.
And, notably, this tactic can be negated in several ways. Firstly, Mass Combat. Ex2's mass combat is lacking and complex, but that's what it's there for.
Secondly, defences against Coordinated attacks and a high base DV.
Thirdly, a high enough Hardness can make defence almost unnecessary. An average archer's best shot deals about 11 damage, which is enough to overcome some artifact armour. Not all. Adding in charms and a DDV of 3 or so, and it simply won't do against accessible defences. At hardness 20, which some exalts can achieve passively for an entire scene or longer, mortal archers simply cannot do enough damage.

In the case of magically created bullets, however, the fact of the matter is that if are enough of them and they're a persistent threat, they're better modelled as an environmental hazard. If they're all aimed at once, they're one attack.

And if someone decided to abuse the system by calling each and every single one a separate attack, then there are both tick and action long perfect defences to hide behind before launching a perfect attack.

Still yeah, I'm not vs debating here guys. Just curious about how mage stuff interacts with Exalted and if Mages can fight Exalted.

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Fight, or defeat? Because anyone can fight a Solar, unless that Solar's had time to apply social Charms.

 

[Sydonai]

What?

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WoDXExalted was one of the proposed settings for Shards of the Exalted Dream.
In the same manner another one of the proposals was a setting that would exploit the popularity of MLP:FIM.

Explain. Genuinely curious.

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The example that the Devs gave was a spray of bullets from a machinegun only counting as one attack, because the attacker only rolls once instead of rolling for each individual bullet.

 

[Valette-Serafina]

The example that the Devs gave was a spray of bullets from a machinegun only counting as one attack, because the attacker only rolls once instead of rolling for each individual bullet.

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Or, as a more common example, a couple of slashes from a light sword, or a blur of jabs from a spear.

 

[Jarudazuigu]

They fucking aren't. Seriously, did you read the part you're pointing Nekraa to?

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They certainly can stomp Incarnae wich are on par with Fetich Souls. Who can use Primordial Charms. Compared to EVERYONE else? They are half-step away from being Primordials in their own right.
This is why I said that Ishavara needs to do impossible thing to become another Primordial.

Is

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Creation, and yes. Vertically.

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Not really? Above it's limited by the Star Vault. Below it ENDS in Wyld.
Read the book about Mountain Folk. They know of around 15 levels that are extremely deep ... but then it begins slipping into Wyld-like stuff.

Explicit canon. There is only one static location in the universe: Creation. Everything else is therefore a certain distance from Creation.

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I never read that. Lets agree to disagree since it's a matter of interpretation.

I pointed out on stuff that supports my theories ... you just claim that I'm wrong. Care to point at stuff that proves me wrong? Like statement form Dev or stuff in books saying that everything I point at is not what I point at.

Creation is the constant frame of reference. The centre. The nail in the wyld, that enforces certain rules.
Wonky, but still linear. It flows in one way, and thus so does time across all of the wyld.

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The difference between our interpretation is that you think that it's wyld. When I write is as properly Wyld.

Creation is the center for Creation-Born, not for anyone else. And the Wyld is INFINITE. Contains EVERY possibility and impossibility.

Since, once again, the creation of Creation. Creation is self-reinforcing. The petty fifes of the fair folk mimic it.

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Creation is falling apart compared to Primordial Age. It isn't self-reinforcing, otherwise gods wouldn't be necessary to do regular maintenance. Wich they don't do because Autochton's X-Box is compelling.

And you ignore my examples of Primordial made Creation-equivalents ... to point out at Fair Folk stuff. That isn't nice.

...Why am I even fucking bothering. You don't know anything about what you're talking about.

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Check the fucking description of Death at the Roots. It can negate charms. And that includes ALL Perfect Defenses except those who have "defends from EVERYTHING, yes even that".
How that is not-knowing about what I claim? It is exception to the rule.

Thus it isn't too far fetched to claim there is bound to be a hazard of the Wyld that can destroy Creation with a "fart" equivalent. Even Solards of the Solar Age weren't arrogant enough to claim otherwise, and did horrific experiments to try and prepare somewhat.

 

[Nekraa]

They certainly can stomp Incarnae wich are on par with Fetich Souls.

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Citation needed as fuck. Hell if they can.

 

[Valette-Serafina]

They certainly can stomp Incarnae wich are on par with Fetich Souls.

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No. They cannot.

Read. The thing. You mentioned.

Not really? Above it's limited by the Star Vault. Below it ENDS in Wyld.

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It doesn't end. Creation does not have a finite amount of down. The Elemental pole of Earth extends infinitely.

Check the fucking description of Death at the Roots. It can negate charms. And that includes ALL Perfect Defenses except those who have "defends from EVERYTHING, yes even that".
How that is not-knowing about what I claim? It is exception to the rule.

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The rule, in the core book, is as thus: In a conflict of perfect effects, Defence wins. Always. Zeal did not get round that. Death at the Roots does not get round that.

 

[Space Penguin]

Some rains of projectiles and explosions are modelized as environmental hazard. There was one of those Essence 5+ Thrown Solar Charms (forgot the name, was it Maelstrom of Celestial Brilliance?) was described as 'thousand of blades of Essence lacerating spacetime itself' and modelized as an environmental hazard.
Some swarm attacks (IIRC an insect/scarab spirit, can't recall which book) were also modelized as environmental hazard.

Basically, 'death of a thousand papercuts' only works if they are applied one at a time

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So even the tactic of trying to kill them with an army doesn't work. Why do people even mention this then?

How does one kill Exalted then anyway? What does it take?

I mean by this rule, no scifi civ can beat an Exalted.

Yes, but from distinct sources. Each arrow isn't necessarily an attack, but outside of mass combat every archer is.
And, notably, this tactic can be negated in several ways. Firstly, Mass Combat. Ex2's mass combat is lacking and complex, but that's what it's there for.
Secondly, defences against Coordinated attacks and a high base DV.
Thirdly, a high enough Hardness can make defence almost unnecessary. An average archer's best shot deals about 11 damage, which is enough to overcome some artifact armour. Not all. Adding in charms and a DDV of 3 or so, and it simply won't do against accessible defences. At hardness 20, which some exalts can achieve passively for an entire scene or longer, mortal archers simply cannot do enough damage.

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Well rapid firing rail gun or anti-aircraft guns would be far more damaging but run into the problem that by Exlated rules, they can be ignored or just turned into environmental hazard.

In the case of magically created bullets, however, the fact of the matter is that if are enough of them and they're a persistent threat, they're better modelled as an environmental hazard. If they're all aimed at once, they're one attack.

And if someone decided to abuse the system by calling each and every single one a separate attack, then there are both tick and action long perfect defences to hide behind before launching a perfect attack.

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lets not even bring up the fact that everything in Mage is magic in some way so. Bullets and whats propelling them could well be counted as shaping which renders the entire Mage verse incapable of doing anything against Exalted.

Fight, or defeat? Because anyone can fight a Solar, unless that Solar's had time to apply social Charms.

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Fight with possibility of wining otherwise why bother?

WoDXExalted was one of the proposed settings for Shards of the Exalted Dream.
In the same manner another one of the proposals was a setting that would exploit the popularity of MLP:FIM.

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Exalted My Little Pony . No, just no.

The example that the Devs gave was a spray of bullets from a machinegun only counting as one attack, because the attacker only rolls once instead of rolling for each individual bullet.

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So singleshot rifles lots of men would be more effective. Lol. Exalted is bullshit indeed.

Its facinating how it tells all other settings, fuck you. You play by our rules now!! Where bow and arrows are pathetic but more effective then machineguns.

It was mentioned back when the E Kickstarter was running. In a this Skype convo that the Devs were having about future plans and such as one of the Rewards, they mentioned the possibility of doing an Exalted X WoD crossover. They also mentioned it as being an off the cuff sort of thing that they were chatting about between themselves and haven't even tossed the proposal up the proper channels.

They mentioned if they did so, they would create a distinct system for the book itself. They also jokingly mentioned that the cover would have one of those movie poster stare down fights between the Unconquered Sun and Caine.

I sincerely hope it never comes to pass.

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This would be hilarious to see to be honest. Unconquered Sun hits Caine but gets hit back with the effects of the Seven fold curse but he laughs it off cause perfect defense which causes capital GOD to get involved and it all rolls down hill from here.

 

[Valette-Serafina]

So even the tactic of trying to kill them with an army doesn't work. Why do people even mention this then?

How does one kill Exalted then anyway? What does it take?

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The exalt in question lacking part of their defensive suite. These aren't innate powers, they're learned techniques. Some Exalted do not know them.

Very few are fully prepared for every kind of threat.

And even then, there are the human limitations they possess.

Well rapid firing rail gun or anti-aircraft guns would be far more damaging but run into the problem that by Exlated rules, they can be ignored or just turned into environmental hazard.

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No more damaging than a war god's spear, and no more accurate either.

lets not even bring up the fact that everything in Mage is magic in some way so. Bullets and whats propelling them could well be counted as shaping which renders the entire Mage verse incapable of doing anything against Exalted.

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Not all magic is shaping. Only magic that warps reality.

Furthermore, most shaping defences are personal. They function as a "You cannot shape me" rather than a "You cannot shape".

Exalted My Little Pony . No, just no.

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Immortal princess of the sun? Check. Immortal princess of the moon? Check. Monsters everywhere? Check.

It fits in some ways. The tone would be entirely different, though.

Its facinating how it tells all other settings, fuck you. You play by our rules now!! Where bow and arrows are pathetic but more effective then machineguns.

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Bows aren't pathetic. IRL, a bow's about as dangerous as some rifles. Arrows hit harder.
They're not as convenient, though. Harder to make, transport, store, and teach soldiers to use. Lower range, more susceptible to wind.

 

[Space Penguin]

The exalt in question lacking part of their defensive suite. These aren't innate powers, they're learned techniques. Some Exalted do not know them.

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The Exalt in question? Are you meaning about the Exalt that can be killed by armies?

Very few are fully prepared for every kind of threat.

And even then, there are the human limitations they possess.

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That doesn't tell much. I mean I understand that Exalted are supposed to do Kungfu but they have defenses against even that. You yourself brought that up:

Or, as a more common example, a couple of slashes from a light sword, or a blur of jabs from a spear.

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No more damaging than a war god's spear, and no more accurate either.

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I was going for motetapping rather then one big attack which we know doesn't work.

Not all magic is shaping. Only magic that warps reality.

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Mage magic is warping reality and imposing what effects you want and what happens.

Furthermore, most shaping defences are personal. They function as a "You cannot shape me" rather than a "You cannot shape".

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yes but they have perfect defenses and whatever else to take care of the rest.

Immortal princess of the sun? Check. Immortal princess of the moon? Check. Monsters everywhere? Check.

It fits in some ways. The tone would be entirely different, though.

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I can see it. But they do shaping and we all know what happens to Shapers.

Bows aren't pathetic. IRL, a bow's about as dangerous as some rifles. Arrows hit harder.
They're not as convincing, though. Harder to make, transport, store, and teach soldiers to use. Lower range, more susceptible to wind.

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Pathetic to exalted characters is what I meant.

damage, which is enough to overcome some artifact armour. Not all. Adding in charms and a DDV of 3 or so, and it simply won't do against accessible defences. At hardness 20, which some exalts can achieve passively for an entire scene or longer, mortal archers simply cannot do enough damage.

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Also pathetic in comparison to full blow machine gun fire or vehicle mounted machine gun fire.

I mean wasn't there a mention of Exlated being capable of taking on the Culture?

 

[Valette-Serafina]

The Exalt in question? Are you meaning about the Exalt that can be killed by armies?

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Some exalted can be killed by armies. Some mages can be killed by some random thug with a pistol.
Actually, some Exalted could be too.

That doesn't tell much. I mean I understand that Exalted are supposed to do Kungfu but they have defenses against even that. You yourself brought that up:

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Not all Exalted do kung fu. Most of their combat is thus, but not all Exalted are combat capable.

I can see it. But they do shaping and we all know what happens to Shapers.

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They don't win every fight effortlessly?

I mean wasn't there a mention of Exlated being capable of taking on the Culture?

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Probably, at some point. There's a lot of things talked about.

It takes about 12-20 different people attacking at once.

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About that many who could conceivably threaten the Exalt. And even then, something like Five-fold Bulwark Stance or Flow Like Blood, coupled with something like Ready in Eight Directions Stance...

 

[Nervaqus987]

They certainly can stomp Incarnae wich are on par with Fetich Souls. Who can use Primordial Charms. Compared to EVERYONE else? They are half-step away from being Primordials in their own right.
This is why I said that Ishavara needs to do impossible thing to become another Primordial.

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No they fucking can't.

The only one who even got close was Laashe who A) was specc'd for nothing else but anti-Sun duty, B) got as far as he did because the Sun(and probably the writers) forgetting his powers,* C) the Sun choosing not to just kill him outright, and D) still got instagibbed by Luna.


*Notably As Morning Reveals, which cuts through all manners of bullshit, like someone trying to deceive you and someone playing dead.

 

[Skitzyfrenic]

Exalted My Little Pony . No, just no.

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It already exists. there's one where the mane six exalt, it's honestly pretty garbo.

But The Time Before is pretty good. All the Primordials make the various MLP FiM race gods lke celestia and luna but for camels and boars and giraffes too. Something something a mount for Ligier/UCS. They end up rebelling too, but via flight instead of usurpation, tearing a chunk of Creation off and fleeing into the Wyle, where they stabilize the section and divy it up. It's written like an old timey legend.

 

[Sydonai]

But The Time Before is pretty good.

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http://www.equestriadaily.com/2011/07/story-of-time-before.html

 

[Skitzyfrenic]

Thanks. on my phone hard to link stuff for other people.

 

[Jarudazuigu]

Valette-Serafina ... I feel like you are trolling me. But that can be only my wounded feelings, so lets drop it and don't argue over stuff where you don't even try to be convincing. No more hard feelings, ok?

Citation needed as fuck. Hell if they can.

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To defeat the Fomorian Night, unshaped Ishavara as far as I know, Unconquered Sun used Daystar, the Anti-Creation scale weapon. Took him whole day with various insta-gib/infinity damage weapons on board. Take note that Daystar can fly with the speed of light. It implies that UCS needed Daystar to win against Fomorian Night.

Prince Lashee Morningstar baited UCS into breaking a solemn vow. UCS swallowed it hook, line and sinker like chump.
With implied halp from The Ebon Dragon, Lashee self-ressurected from a minor Shaping stuff It inflicted on UCS.
Lashee used Daystar's super-artifact-forge to make Itself more than awesome.
Stomped UCS with mostly psychological tactics and some badass timing.

Incarna aren't all that special. Circle of pre-Elder Solars can slaughter every single one of them. I know since I lost a bet against my Players who used vanilla circle to murder the fuck out of UCS.

No they fucking can't.

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You are inconsistent, fellow Quester. Because in next breath you mention a Thing wich bitch-slapped "Unconquered" Sun really hard.

The only one who even got close was Laashe who
A) was specc'd for nothing else but anti-Sun duty,

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Citation? I saw used only generic Raksha Charms at first. After re-forging, though it looked like Creation was FORCED to accept Lashee's fair-folk fuckery as business as usual.
Instead of working against it, as is normal. So no, I wasn't under impression that Lashee was anti-Sun specced.

B) got as far as he did because the Sun(and probably the writers) forgetting his powers,*

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Really? It was quite well written that Sol didn't double-tap since he felt ashamed of being baited like that. Stupid decisions are still stupid decisions, despite all super-charms.
After all, Primordials LOST.

C) the Sun choosing not to just kill him outright, and

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Nah. Sol was social-played by Lashee pushing all his Virtue based weaknesses like pro.

D) still got instagibbed by Luna.
*Notably As Morning Reveals, which cuts through all manners of bullshit, like someone trying to deceive you and someone playing dead.

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Luna did not destroy Lashee. She crippled it with Sneak Attack, using anti-Wyld weapon, and unlike Dumbass Sun did not let Lashee have any initiative.
In short, Luna is a badass monster and Sol is a dumbass jock.

Take note that there is no new Ishavara arising anymore. Guess who's a busy little bee and nips the heroic Raksha in the bud?
It isn't Dumbass Sun, that is for sure.

 

[Valette-Serafina]

An array of nonsense.

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...You're going on my ignore list and never coming off.

 

[Nekraa]

To defeat the Fomorian Night, unshaped Ishavara as far as I know, Unconquered Sun used Daystar, the Anti-Creation scale weapon. Took him whole day with various insta-gib/infinity damage weapons on board. Take note that Daystar can fly with the speed of light. It implies that UCS needed Daystar to win against Fomorian Night.

Prince Lashee Morningstar baited UCS into breaking a solemn vow. UCS swallowed it hook, line and sinker like chump.
With implied halp from The Ebon Dragon, Lashee self-ressurected from a minor Shaping stuff It inflicted on UCS.
Lashee used Daystar's super-artifact-forge to make Itself more than awesome.
Stomped UCS with mostly psychological tactics and some badass timing.

Incarna aren't all that special. Circle of pre-Elder Solars can slaughter every single one of them. I know since I lost a bet against my Players who used vanilla circle to murder the fuck out of UCS.

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Cite. Your. Fucking. Sources.

Within this chaos existed the Primordials. It cannot be known whetherthey were born from the Essence, if they predated its existence, or if they were somehow coterminous with it, but they were the first of all shaped things.

In the madness around them dwelt the Fair Folk, creatures whose very nature was antagonistic to the Primordials and all that sprang from them.

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Primordials and Fair Folk are not the same.

As with so much of their experience, however, this
choice does not belong to the raksha. The concept of time
is alien to them and was imposed upon their consciousness.
The never-ending weave of interlocking causalities that
is so easily accepted and taken for granted by the natives
of Creation is not of the raksha, but it ensnares them and
pulls them along in one direction. Its ceaseless progression
is tedious.

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As it was finished, the
vast shinma known as Nirakara yielded up an aspect of itself
to define the boundaries of this Creation, marking it out as
a place with a definite shape. Within that place and because
of it, time became a constant with a regularized flow, rather
than the loose ordering of distinct moments it had been thus
far. No more could the raksha selectively ignore the flow of
time as they once had. Thus did the framework of history
impose itself upon their consciousness.

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Raksha can't ignore the progression of time.

And that's all I can bother to cite. When it is the one making the claim that should provide citations instead of going "it's totally true guys!"

 

[Jarudazuigu]

Cite. Your. Fucking. Sources.

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*raises eyebrow*
Okay. I'll PM you this when I find that stuff about Daystar and Lashee. It's not like I did not tell where I found that stuff, repeatedly.

Primordials and Fair Folk are not the same.

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I never said so. I merely suggest that since these are RELATED types of existences transition from one to another is not impossible. Within the Wyld all manner of McGuffins await.
Because, unlike Creation, it isn't limited.

Raksha can't ignore the progression of time.

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I hope you remember that Fair Folk aren't the end-all be-all in regards to the Wyld? There are alien Primordials there, and alien Creation-equivalents, if we stick with the known stuff.

And as far as I understand, Raksha are semi-symbiotic part of Creation. Their fundamental nature warped to conform with Creation's rules. Guess of what human souls are made?
It is heavily implied it's the same stuff that Jadeborn are made of ... *stops himself*

And that's all I can bother to cite. When it is the one making the claim that should provide citations instead of going "it's totally true guys!"

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Where did I do?! Fuck!
Whenever I claimed something I either said it is my interpretation of canonical stuff, that I find logical, OR pointed out where I read it.
Why the fuck you are treating my disagreement with you as ... dunno, as if I stabbed the baby Jesus in his crib.
God, it is tiresome.

 

[Nervaqus987]

Really? It was quite well written that Sol didn't double-tap since he felt ashamed of being baited like that. Stupid decisions are still stupid decisions, despite all super-charms.

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Okay, let me run you through exactly why Laashe should not have gotten anywhere with his little plan.

Let's start at step fucking 1.

Convince the Sun to make that oath in the first place.

Sol has As Morning Reveals. This gives him a constant effect of having All Encompassing Sorcerer's Sight and Measure the Wind at all times. In addition, he is also under the effects of Judge's Ear Technique, Eye of the Unconquered Sun, and Tireless Sentinel Gaze.

What does this mean? It means that Sol is constantly aware of everything around him down to the motonic level. It means you cannot lie to him without him knowing and cannot even tell half truths to him. Most critically here, you straight up cannot deceive him, full stop. Disguises, Deception, Illusions, magical or mundane fail outright to take him in.

So Laashe trying to trick the Sun? Stops here.

Even if he had some way to make perfect lies, that still runs face first into Perfection Beyond Imagining, which straight up crushes attempts to try and contest the Sun's powers. Not to mention, supporting Sol in any attempt at applying Social Fu to work out what Laashe wants beyond the passive effects of As Morning Reveals.

Next step, Surviving the Sun coming to kill him.

Lets start with the basics of this. The Raksha charmset does not contain perfect defenses. Or more accurately, it does not contain perfect defenses that apply to things other than Shaping Combat. As Shaping Combat is nonsensical Raksha games they can only play with each other in the depths of the Wyld, that amounts to the same thing.

Against the Godspear of All Searing Noon, nothing less than Perfection will suffice.

Even assuming that Laashe has custom charms providing a far more powerful defense than the Raksha Charmset can provide and assuming he had these before he became an Ishvara, his survival still requires the Sun to not fucking notice that he didn't die and that he's currently trying to hitch a ride on the Sun himself.

Again, this runs into the inherent difficulties of trying to hide anything around the Sun.

Spoiler warning, it doesn't work.

Then, of course, we have Laashe surviving anything that comes next, such as surviving jumping into something designed to burn the stuff of the Wyld into energy, then surviving mortal combat with the Sun himself, and of course the Sun not only refusing to vaporize him with the Godspear, but forgetting the Godspear can toggle so it only smites his enemies.


And finally, to bring things back to what I originally quoted about you saying Isvhara can stomp Incarnae, let's quote the Ink Monkeys passage where the concept of Ishvara were introduced;

These are the
ishvara. They are vastly more potent than raksha of the same
Essence, capable of standing against the most powerful of devas
and engaging in duels with the Celestial Incarnae.

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Serious talk time. In every thread I've seen you discuss Exalted in, when you make assertions, you have everyone else who knows what they're talking about come to tell you "No, that's not it." Does this not imply anything to you?

 

[gibbousmoons]

*raises eyebrow*
Okay. I'll PM you this when I find that stuff about Daystar and Lashee. It's not like I did not tell where I found that stuff, repeatedly.

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When discussing things with discrete rulesets such as role-playing games, you should be able to back up your claims. You are not required to do so immediately, but if you disagree with someone and they want to know where you're getting your interpretation then it is only fair that you either do so or admit that you were mistaken. You could be remembering a house rule as a source book rule. I've made that mistake several times, so I know it's an easy one to make.

So I would like you to post either the paragraphs in question, with the book they're from, or the name of the book and the page of the information. This should prove trivially easy, and will immediately solve this little kerfuffle.

There. Everyone happy? I hope everyone will back off Jarudazuigu for twenty-four hours or until he posts his citations, whichever comes first.

Please quote this post if you have any questions.

 

[Jarudazuigu]

When discussing things with discrete rulesets such as role-playing games, you should be able to back up your claims. You are not required to do so immediately, but if you disagree with someone and they want to know where you're getting your interpretation then it is only fair that you either do so or admit that you were mistaken. You could be remembering a house rule as a source book rule. I've made that mistake several times, so I know it's an easy one to make.

So I would like you to post either the paragraphs in question, with the book they're from, or the name of the book and the page of the information. This should prove trivially easy, and will immediately solve this little kerfuffle.

There. Everyone happy? I hope everyone will back off Jarudazuigu for twenty-four hours or until he posts his citations, whichever comes first.

Please quote this post if you have any questions.

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I found the partial citation, wrote it down there in bold. Thank you for the patience, and apologies for any inconvenience. I believed that putting big quotations in the thread would only needlessly escalate bullshit arguments.

Convince the Sun to make that oath in the first place.

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Blame the fucking Authors, not me. Though I will let my imagination run wild and hazard a guess.
Lashee's offer was fucking genuine! News at 11.

At that moment Lashee was among the big bosses in the Fair Folk courts. He begged to be spared Sun's skullfucking IF Lashee's forces don't move to attack Creation. Hint, they NEVER moved against Creation while Lashee was their overlord.

Take note that it was just a promise. All Sun had to do to keep it, and not breach his Virtue charm, to send someone else to kill Lashee's ass. Dumbass moment? Yes, because Authors did Sol act like teenage jock. Go figure.

Next step, Surviving the Sun coming to kill him.

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Two separate assumption charms, all it takes to survive. Assumption of [I'm a painting on the wall] and Assumption of [I'm that dude taunting Sol like there is no tomorrow]. Both are real and both are said Fair Folk. Infinite damage means jack if you lack Health Levels to apply it to. But Shaping defense would prevent it from happening to Sol, even with all his Virtues broken against Lashee. I believe.

I find it cringe worthy that Lashee used it mid-combat and Sol's excuse to be stupid was "annoyed he fell for a childish scheme hook, line and sinker". Again it wasn't me who wrote it so.

Again, this runs into the inherent difficulties of trying to hide anything around the Sun.
Spoiler warning, it doesn't work.

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*silly voice* Ishavara, it is implied that Lashee evolved to such state after Sun took his bait.

But yes, all the mechanics were ignored for the sake of story-time. By the author.

The only excuse I can find semi-plausible is that Sol we read statistics for is not the same as Sol we read about having his ass handed back to him. Luna nagged til he developed all the "I don't hold Idiot-Ball anymore" perception charms?

Then, of course, we have Laashe surviving anything that comes next, such as surviving jumping into something designed to burn the stuff of the Wyld into energy, then surviving mortal combat with the Sun himself, and of course the Sun not only refusing to vaporize him with the Godspear, but forgetting the Godspear can toggle so it only smites his enemies.

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It is heavily implied that Lashee became something totally unique after re-forging himself in the Daystar Workshop. For what we know Lashee could have changed the shit to make Creation accepting his Shaping Combat as if it was real from Creation-Born perspective. Thus Sol, who have no Shaping Combat Suite, got shafted in this regard being forced into Lashee's pace of narrative.

On the other hand, Luna have highest possible stats for Shaping Combat ... and like I mentioned before, sneak-attacked Lashee and cut off his Wyld core. Before punting him into Forge of Oramus. Her birthplace.

And finally, to bring things back to what I originally quoted about you saying Isvhara can stomp Incarnae, let's quote the Ink Monkeys passage where the concept of Ishvara were introduced;

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Scroll of Errata, page 96. It is where stuff about Fomorian Night is written in mention. And Lashee, too. I lost my book about Daystar, where both Ishavara are mentioned in more than just passing. Sorry.

And using your own quote. Capable of battling against someone implies ability to beat them. Otherwise it isn't battle but the usual bullying.

Serious talk time. In every thread I've seen you discuss Exalted in, when you make assertions, you have everyone else who knows what they're talking about come to tell you "No, that's not it." Does this not imply anything to you?

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And every time I speak plainly that what I claim is my interpretation of purposefully left vague canonical stuff that I find logical? I'm branded as heretic for daring to blaspheme in the eyes of those people.

Let me check:
My proof to the suggestion that Creation isn't unique speshul snowflake. Zen Mu, the realm created by Primordials as a prototype of Creation. I admit to not having the source handy. I read it in someone else's stuff, claimed to be canonical by the dude.
Second proof is in the book about Daystar. The Creation-equivalent made by jealous Primordial of Sinew and Bones who wanted to ram it into Creation proper. Sol used Daystar's Anti-Creation ultimate weapon to wipe it off the face of the Wyld on Holy Tyrant's order.

And people take outrage when I suggest that if Zen Mu and the other Creation-equivalent were a thing, there can be other "worlds" like Creation in the infinite Wyld.

And lets end it without flame-wars. Things can be good, or bad but a lot of Exalted stuff is vague, contradictory or plain not mentioned. I am of the school of thought that claims "what isn't forbidden is legit" when playing games. It makes them more interesting, in my opinion.

 

[Nervaqus987]

*silly voice* Ishavara, it is implied that Lashee evolved to such state after Sun took his bait.

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He didn't become an Ishvara until he reforged himself. Not before.

And using your own quote. Capable of battling against someone implies ability to beat them. Otherwise it isn't battle but the usual bullying.

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It also doesn't mean "Stomping" them, which is what you said originally.

And every time I speak plainly that what I claim is my interpretation of purposefully left vague canonical stuff that I find logical? I'm branded as heretic for daring to blaspheme in the eyes of those people.

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No, what happens is people try and correct you and then you dig in your heels and don't listen.

Creation is different from the other worlds that dot the Wyld. When the Primordials forged it, they drew the Shinma into alignment and redefined all things. Creation became the axis mundi of reality. Time and Causality spread from it. It was defined as the Center and all of the Wyld came to revolve around it.

Zen-mu was born from nothing save the interactions of the Primordials and after being discarded, it was left as "nothing but a graveyard."

Cajerrón was the working of one Primordial and he tried and ultimately failed to use it to replace Creation as the center of reality.

 

[Jarudazuigu]

Lets stop it. It is apparent you do not believe my "Creation isn't special" spiel, and I do not adhere to the "Creation is special" school of thought. Do we have agreement on that?

 

[Nervaqus987]

Lets stop it. It is apparent you do not believe my "Creation isn't special" spiel, and I do not adhere to the "Creation is special" school of thought. Do we have agreement on that?

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Sure thing, but let me leave off with this little bit from Compass of Celestial Directions: The Wyld;

Regardless of their origin, the Primordials were vastly more
powerful than the grandest of the current princes and
queens of Chaos. By their will, the Primordials shaped
a realm of solid reality and forged unchanging laws that
eternally bound its form. Here, time always flowed in a
single direction. Dropped objects fell downward. Plants
grew in the ground, and animals fed upon both them and
each other. Souls passed from life to death and back to
life again. Gods and elementals gave consciousness to the
flows of Essence that permeated Creation, so that Chaos
could not reclaim the Primordials' handiwork.
The denizens of Chaos hated the newly formed so-
lidity of Creation. No longer did they dwell in timeless,
formless perfection. Creation's rule-bound existence
horrified beings who had never known division into Self
and Other, or Real and Not-Real. In shaping Creation,
the Primordials also gave definition to its opposite. The
Courts of Madness sought to destroy Creation, but the
Primordials rebuffed their most fearsome attacks.

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[Yzarc]

Mørke: "They're gonna look different, they are more involved. It's like a Cadillac, your daiklave is like a Cadillac, it's got all this great stuff, great features, great interactivity, great lore. And it's a more intense system, a more intense focus on your character and their connection to the legacy of the Solars of the First Age, and it is a more intense Solar XP investment. The first one I wrote came out to be like 120 Solar XP to go all the way through it to the end. You might look at it as errata, because looking backwards from Arms, you would see that they're not the same thing as what's in the core book. You'd be correct in believing that the artifacts in the corebook are outdated, but it will be easy for you to take what's in the corebook and convert it."

Meanwhile, Holden says in the chat: "Notably, it does -not- look like the old beta Volcano Cutter, nor does it look like the tiny 5-Evocations-and-done stuff in the core. It's -different,- not just an expansion on the corebook."

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So we have some news on Arms of the Chosen.

 

[Skitzyfrenic]

120 xp? That's what I don't even. >.<

 

[Valette-Serafina]

And here I was hoping they'd let the Solar cock-sucking rest for a little.

Well, that's a lie. Hope implies I thought it was a possibility.

Setting that aside, saying great that often tells me that Mørke's either trying to build up hype, which is a bad idea, or he's got his head stuck up the ass of whoever wrote that section.
I'll do him the credit of not assuming that ass belongs to him.

 

[tehelgee]

120xp for an Artifact's Evocations?

How about no, I'll spend that on other stuff.