General World of Darkness Discussion Thread QQ Edition

Ragura · Jan 27, 2022

shadowdice said:
Them going insane in outer space and coming back corrupted brings a smile to my face.

In the Tribebook: Niwsha the werecoyotes even explain why that happens: They hate what the Void Engineers are doing to the Umbra (namely, bringing their Technocracy pseudophysics with them and thus massively spreading the influence of the Weaver) so they redirect them into the Wyrm-corrupted sections of the Umbra.

Maragas · Jan 27, 2022

Demon is fun, systems are neat and the lore of it is great. Though now Earthbound mechanics, they are...well, let's just say interesting. I don't know what they were smoking when they come up with Mastery but I want some.

Repentant_Dragos said:
By the way, do you talk about WoD on Discord as well?

Nope, I only lurk in WoD discord channels at most.

Maragas · Jan 27, 2022

Ah Kuei-jin. Despite the name of their book, "Kindred of the East", they are not really Cain's Vampires. They are undead creatures, yes. They share similarities, yes. But those are only surface-level similarities these two beings have.
So let's delve into their book, shall we? It's a very interesting book to be honest. It's also one of the first places where the Wheel of Ages* is mentioned if I remember correctly but I might be wrong.

I will be mainly going over What is a Kuei-Jin in this. There are many, many things I will not get into in this post as the book is full of interesting things. And also it can be confusing at first and is best to make a separate posts for each subject.

Kuei-jin, the common name of Chinese and Japanese vampire communities. Also known as "Ten Thousand Demons" or "Demon People"
They are, by their nature, close to the Wraiths and Wraith Risen. Corpses possessed by dead mortals. They sustain themselves with "Chi" and while blood, and vitae, is a common way of gaining Chi, they can use flesh, blood, breathe and many other things to acquire Chi.
In fact, Kuei-jin can be said to be a mix of Wraiths, Mummies, Vampires and incredible enough, Nephandi.

Why does Kuei-jin exist though?

Because they were either horrible people while alive and awakened their P'o, the dark and animalistic part of their soul, or died so messily and terrifyingly that their P'o awakens in desperation. Either way, they all had great Willpower, similar to Wraiths.
Normally, souls like this immediately end up as Spectre or become a source of Bane or even manifest as Umbral Demon. But their fate isn't that. Maybe because Gods are kind and give the curse of becoming a Kuei-jin to save the person or maybe it's just how Karma works but their journey just starts.

The soul, weighted by the bestial urges, basically sinks into the deepest parts of the world. There are many names for it. Some think it's the Thousand Hells, some think it's the Abyss and some think it's the Labyrinth. (My bet is on the Abyss) Whatever it is, the soul goes through endless tortures, unlucky souls get devoured or enslaved by demons while others get destroyed outright. For these souls, this is the end and only the Gods know if there is any reprieve from it.

But the future Kuei-jin is different. His soul splits into two. The Hun and the P'o separate. The Hun is the rational, higher, part of the soul while P'o is the lower bestial part. Hun separates from P'o before they enter Yomi and gets stuck in Shadowlands in their former body. Later, P'o either escapes the Yomi World or is released by it and tracks the Hun to their former body. After this, they either get stuck in the body until they fade or get destroyed by other spirits or they become Kuei-jin by reuniting in the body.

The Hun and The P'o somewhat combine in the body. P'o slashes open the Gauntlet, the Shroud for the duo to enter the body. the Hun then revitalizes the body and reconstructs it if needed. The results are, however...are ugly.

The tortured soul wakes up in their undead body and they are officially a Kuei-jin. But starved for life, mindless from their torture in Yami and unable to breathe, they are called Chih-mei. They are little better than animals that hunt humans for their Chi, Many starve to death, get put down by mortals or are enslaved by other Kuei-jin as attack dogs. The rare few are taken by Kuei-jin to test their Hun, to determine if they can become civilized or should they be put down or enslaved.

Kuei-jin that start their training to be a proper Kuei-jin is called "Hin"
They have no right, they are not a person. They can and will be killed if any proper Kuei-jin feels like it. Normally this would last for 24 whole years but in the 5th Age time is running short and 5 years are the norm these days. Instructors are harsh and have little tolerance for mistakes.
At the end of their training, they go through the Fire and Water Test. Where they must demonstrate their mastery of the supernatural and mundane worlds. Each Kuei-jin should demonstrate their best skills and show that they can meet the minimum requirements of the ancestors in front of the mixed mortal and supernatural court. If not, they will not be seen again.

So what now?

Live your life, accomplish your Dharma and achieve enlightenment, Golconda. This will be a long road and might not even be possible in the Fifth Age as the Apocalypse may happen in a single lifetime but it is the proper way of Kuei-jin. Not battling Western Kindred, politics, hedonism or bloodlust.

But to end this on a funny note, have the funniest Kuei-jin fact.

Kuei-jin are heavily jealous of Mages. Forget the Cainites, don't put a Mage and a Kuei-jin in the same room. How dare fricking humans can achieve enlightenment better than Kuei-jin, whose whole existence is dedicated to it!

So yeah, this is how Kuei-jin came to be and how "fledgling" Kuei-jin become "neonate".

Any opinions on Kuei-jin so far? I find them interesting, especially when it involves other splats.

*Yep, the very same Wheel of Ages that Voormas tried to break and end the endless cycle of Life and Death, the same Ages that even W20 Changling Breeds use where Kitsunes mentioned Gaia promised them that she will guarantee their survival through 6th Age and give their freedom in 7th Age.
See "Time of Judgement: Mage Scenario Judgement "This Entropy business seems sketchy, let's remove it." and "Changing Breeds or "Bears, Cats, Lizards oh my!" Part 2" for their details respectively.

Repentant_Dragos · Jan 27, 2022

Maragas said:
Demon is fun, systems are neat and the lore of it is great. Though now Earthbound mechanics, they are...well, let's just say interesting. I don't know what they were smoking when they come up with Mastery but I want some.

Nope, I only lurk in WoD discord channels at most.

Ah, understood.

Maragas · Jan 27, 2022

Independent Vampire Clans, the Giovanni, the Assamites, the Followers of Sect and the Ravnos.

They have what the Anarch Revolution dreams about, full independence. They are each powerful enough to make even Sabbat and Camarilla hesitate. Giovanni, the soul merchants and slavers. Assamites, vampire hunting assassins and mercenaries. Ravnos, the masters of illusions and the Followers of Set, worshippers of Set and masters of intrigue.
So let's learn about them.

Let's start with Giovanni, the incestual vampire mafia. The enslaver of souls and destroyers of the old Cappadocians. They are honestly one of my favorite clans to play.

They are an extremely self-sufficient clan of Necromancers. They were a family of Necromancers for nearly a thousand years even before they were embraced. They are masters of unearthing secrets long forgotten and have an incredible amount of forbidden knowledge. Their Antediluvian Augustus diablerized Cappadocius to reach his status and while he might be the youngest and weakest of the Antediluvians he is still the most active among the Antediluvians, still awake even. They amass massive amounts of resources, from mortal wealth and millions of souls, to ultimately destroy the Shroud and merge the realms of the living and the dead. Oh and their bite causes pain rather than pleasure unlike others kindred.

They also have hilarious family dynamics and I am not even talking about incest.

The mortal side of Giovanni is mostly ignorant of their vampiric side but you know what, they want to be in on the joke. So most Giovanni grows up in an ultra-competitive environment, pursuing something they don't know but suspect.

From my personal experience, they are a great clan if you are a new player. Your "Fledgling" and "Neonate" phase will be smooth, you will have extensive support and be, in my opinion, one of the best-supporting characters in VTM. Your utility is incredibly high, your methods of information gathering and detective work is OOC for most situations.
(Of course, half of your utility will depend on the ST actually allowing it to happen. I had shitty experiences where in the entire campaign there were no Wraiths, "the family branch doesn't have anything to lend to you" and when I had a few souls (not Wraiths) under control the enemies had "Wards against spirits"...we were tailing a Brujah gang where the strongest was 100 years old and an 11th gen.)

They are also great for advanced players too. That's when you become one-man Umbrella Corp and have armies of superhuman zombies and Wraiths. I am talking about Potence, Celerity and Fortitude wielding* Zombies with effective Strength/Dexterity/Stamina of 7-8. Nevermind the Wraiths who have an entire splat dedicated to creating them.

Now, into the Assamites. The murderous vampire hunters and mercenaries for hire. But the best vampires you could meet if you are a mortal.

They are the children of Haqim, probably the Antediluvian second only to Saulot in terms of behavior towards humans. They are an independent clan of vampires that will do most jobs for Blood. (Small things can be settled for large amounts of cash). Like Giovanni most Assamite is dedicated to their clan and works under numerous cells across the world for the good of the clan.

Now, one of the things you should know about is how the clan got cursed by the Tremere clan. You see, when tensions between Camarilla and Assamites were high, the Old Men of the Mountain declared there will be peace between them. Because a few day earlier they found Nosferatu spies lurking near Alamut, the capital of Assamites and one of the most secretive places in the world. Which is incredible because Alamut is one of the most warded places in the world, layers upon layers of magic hide the place.
Anyway, they signed the peace treaty named "Treaty of Tyre". Unfortunately, no one realized that Tremere would use it as a sympathetic link and curse every Assamite using it. What does it do? Assamites can't drink kindred blood, if they do they get unsoakable Lethal damage. If they try to diablerize someone they get unsoakable Aggravated damage and Assamites get no benefit from normal diablerie if they survive.

But in the end while Giovanni makes people nervous, Ravnos makes people cautious and Followers of Set makes people suspicious, Assamites strike fear into most Kindred. And for a good reason.

Laws, especially the Law of Judgement "Judge those of Caine's blood and punish them should they be found wanting" combined with the Law of Protection "Ward the mortals from Caine's descendants and treat them with honor in all things." makes most Kindred sweat blood in the presence of Assamites.

They have three different castes, Warrior, Vizier, and Sorcerer. Right now Warriors hold the most influence.

Warriors are led by the Caliph, the most powerful of the warriors and any warrior can challenge for that position anytime they want. The Sorcerers are led by the Amr, who is Al-Ashrad, the most powerful Sorcerer in the clan. In fact, Al Ashrad is so powerful and old that he is the Amr and has been the Amr for nearly 2000 years. Being 500 years old Mage even before you are embraced makes you quite powerful. Though these days Ur-Shulgi, one of the most powerful Methuselahs in the world, is expected to challenge Al Ashrad for the position of Amr. Lastly, the Viziers are led by the...well the Vizier. Unlike the other two, they are democratically elected by other viziers and serve for 63 years before a new election which they cannot enter. Though they can enter the next election.

And above all of them is the Old Man of the Mountain. The Eldest Assamite that is currently in the clan and active. They are the ultimate authority and basically the symbol of Haqim himself when he is not around.

In my experience, they are fun to play around. A full Assamite coterie even more so. You could be sent around the world wildly different missions and mercenary contracts. One day you might be trying to assassinate an Old Tzimisce in order to get a low gen blood while the other night you pursue a group of rogue Sabbat pack while the next week you are having Camarilla Harpies for a few million dollars. Perfect for episodic campaigns.

What about Followers of Set? Serpents of..."Light"

Worshippers of Set. They are basically devils of Kindred society. You might not want to get it, you might know the consequences and you would definitely know they are going to bite you but you will still get the help of these snakes. Their ultimate goal is the resurrection of Set. Not surprisingly, being followers of a Dark God/Antediluvian/Avatar of the Wyrm/Whatever, they are even more vulnerable to sunlight. Similar to Lasombra in fact.

But the most important fact to know about Followers of Set, in my opinion, is that it is a religion.

There are all kinds of Follower, some mortal, some kindred, some Ventrue, some not even vampire but some other kind of supernatural. Yes, technically you could say, play as a Werewolf who embraced the faith. Their temples are everywhere in the world and they will continue to expand for the glorious resurrection of Set.

Lastly, have a fun fact most kindred doesn't know about Followers.

When I meant that the snakes WILL bite, I meant it. They are one of the many reasons why the Inquisition had so much success. They literally sold out every Kindred they could. Even while the fires of the Inquisition also burned them.

I can't give personal experience because I never played them but my friend always had a kick playing them. Bloody snake loves scamming us.

Lastly, Ravnos. Wanderers, tricksters and possessing what is probably the most OP discipline.

Ravnos, they are probably the most widespread clan of Vampires. You could find them everywhere in the world. This is because of their wanderlust which is said to be inherited from the antediluvian Zapathasura. They are probably the freest vampires in the world, going wherever they want and paying little attention to the antics of others, including other sects. They have little inside politics or a goal. The only thing that can change this is Zapathasura awakening, which they believe will happen and destroy all other Antediluvians.

Before they were wanderers but after Zapathasure fell to torpor they were basically the shadow rulers of India, similar to Ventrue and Rome. Ravnos still use the caste system from those times very loosely. After all, if your sire is an expert merchant and organizer you are probably similar to him.
Most importantly, older Ravnos doesn't like Embracing. Because they hate taking mortals out of Karmic Cycle. Very similar in beliefs to Kuei-jin in this way.

I never played a Ravnos but I can see that they basically have Brujah/Gangrel level of ease in justifying why your character is in a coterie. Any kind of campaign is fine with them. Sabbat, Ravnos, European, American, Eastern. Plus Chimerstry is pretty useful and basically the strongest discipline at the highest levels.

I would love to talk about Ravnos more but well, image limit and all. At least I talked about Ravnos a lot in this thread before.
So, what're your opinions on them? Did you play any of them before? If so, what was your experience? If you have any questions ask them because I know that I didn't cover anything but the basics.

*Let me remind you that Zombies last forever until destroyed. Elder Necromancers and god forbid, Methuselah Necromancers are one of the most dangerous things you could face just with their zombie armies, nevermind their other abilities.

Maragas · Jan 27, 2022

I thought about continuing my Changing Breeds post but well, I am in an evil mood.

So let's go and join a Pentex presentation on Mockery Breeds.
-------------------------------------------------------

What are Mockery Breeds?
The Mockery Breeds are the results of Project Lycaon. As you can see in the slide, the goal of Project Lycaon is the artificial creation of Changing Breeds under our control to counteract the Black Spiral Dancers' influence and behavior towards our great company. Not to mention a force capable of fighting the mutts head-on. The project is underway and actively supported by Neuro-Dynamic Laboratories subsidy.

How successful is Project Lycaon?
Unfortunately, no project completely satisfied the...shareholders but none of them were complete failures either. Project War Wolves, Kerasi and Yeren are the most successful experiments and they were utilized against the shapeshifters successfully and even failures like Project Anurana and Samsa gave us valuable data on how to twist and corrupt the changing blood.
Speaking of projects, let's go over them one by one. Yes I know some of you already know the details, especially you Yeren's, but it is mandatory.

Project War Wolves

War Wolves, they were our first success in attempting to create artificial Werewolves. Using genetic material from "willing" subjects we selectively breed genetically altered dogs and wolves to create them with a very strict diet relying on Werewolf flesh. These wolves have no morals, no higher intelligence, are completely obedient and possess the overwhelming strength and stamina of a Werewolf alongside of their regeneration. They are kept hungry 24/7 with only Werewolf flesh managing to satisfy them for some time.
Unfortunately, we were unsuccessful in installing the so-called "spirituality" to our wolves They are incapable of tracking their targets to the other side nor are they capable of fooling spirits. Not to mention they are incapable of taking any forms other than of a Wolf and their Warform. And thanks to their Werewolf DNA they are also vulnerable to Silver.

But nevertheless, they are another tool in our arsenal to end the Garou for once and all. Many packs got fooled by them until it is too late to do anything.

Project Anurana

Anurana, the Werefrogs, many consider them our first major failure but it was initially successful. Those failures from Project Illiad might have screwed things up again but it was promising. Even more than War Wolves.

They were originally designed to be our maritime forces. To counteract the Rokea in the sea, Bone Gnawers in the sewers and secure the perimeter around the polluted rivers, lakes and oceans. It was a success. Powerful, fast, durable, hypnotic, mystical, perfectly capable of living in the most corrupt and polluted waters, no vulnerability to Silver or Gold and even capable of traveling to the other side. Not to mention they even had Homid forms and actual Intelligence.

But they proved to be uncontrollable. Even our Bane-based inhibitors and control devices failed and they escaped our hand in their first mission. Now they spread across the wild, living in the polluted waters. Even stalking our employees and facilities. I would advise being careful, I heard they use kidnapped employees as breeding stock. Thankfully outside of their Innate gifts, they can't acquire Gifts of other spirits and Banes look down on them to bestow them their power.

On the bright side, we learn from our failures and while this was a major failure, it was full of success and it helped us to advance Project Lycaon immensely.

Project Metamorphosis - Samsa

One of our lesser failures was Project Metamorphosis. The goal of it was to create the ultimate espionage tool, the perfect assassin and spy. A Swarm based Shapeshifter.

But unfortunately, the result was Samsa, the Werecockroaches. These failures while fully capable and better than War Wolves are cowering wrecks, afraid of the dark. They can't separate into the swarms nor do they have the nerve to do any espionage.

No need to talk about them.

OOC
Ah Samsa, I always wanted to play them at least once.

Pentex doesn't know the golden goose they created. And how it escaped their clutches.

Werecockroaches are incredibly intriguing. They are nearly a match for a Werewolf in their Crinos equivalent. They have one of the best survival abilities in the whole World of Darkness. They are completely immune to Pollution and Radiation and their only weakness is Insecticides. And while they aren't capable of sidestepping to the Umbra, the Cockroach totem is willing to teach them his gifts, along with will all the Cockroach spirits.* They have Gnosis just like Anurana which basically makes them automatically better than War Wolves.
Best of all, Pentex has no idea that Samsa escaped their control as they have no idea of their innate survival gift. Their biggest problem is that they are worse than Malkavians in the Insanity department and start with at least 2 Derangements at character creation. (Though they also have Samsa only ability to shed their Insanity to other beings and leaving them sane for a moment. The more Derangements they have the better this ability is. Very Malkavian like)

Project Kerasi

Kerasi, our second most successful project so far. And for some, the most successful. They are intelligent, stronger and tougher than a Werewolf, can breed easily and true and even though they aren't capable of crossing to the other side, their one trait makes them invaluable in our operations. They can easily blend in as a normal Changing Breed with no one having an idea. Currently, they are sowing discord and misery in Africa, enflaming the shapeshifter war in the region as mercenaries with no Wyrm traces. Many African communities have been slaughtered by Kerasi and blamed on other shapeshifters. Our subsidiaries that deal in "Animal Conservation" make sure that slowly and surely all Rhinos in Africa are Kerasi and Kerasi kin while natural Rhinoceros is extinct. None wiser.

In fact, they are so successful that some groups in Pentex thinking of focusing on them rather than Yeren Wereapes but the rumors of Kerasi beginning to question why they are serving us, Pentex, put some brakes to that idea.

Project Yeren

Yeren, the Wereapes, are our newest and most successful project yet. Based on our prediction they will be perfect for ending the Garou Nation when the only Tribes left standing will be Glass Walkers and Bone Gnawers. Created from the best traits a human can have, at least for us Pentex, rapacious greed and overwhelming appetite they are perfect shapeshifters for us. So much that even Banes accepted their presence and give them their blessing. They are easily a match for Werewolf with no weaknesses and already cleaning out Bone Gnawers and Glass Walkers from the streets and following them even to the other side as they can easily sidewalk like the Garou. And best of all, nearly no one outside of Pentex knows about Yeren as they only have been created for a few years.

Though there are several concerns raised by the Pentex leadership. Yeren is too perfect. Already using Pentex to raise their presence and power and getting into power struggles like other Pentex employees. They don't want to be under our control, they want to be in control. And while these traits are most likely why Banes give their blessing to them, it is concerning for much of the Pentex leadership. After all, Yeren were created to be a replacement of Black Spiral Dancers who were too arrogant and uncontrollable for Pentex.

Though for now, they are supported by our company.
Another smaller downside is that they still haven't achieved their full potential yet. Their gifts and powers will mature in the upcoming decades but this is just the downside of being the youngest Changing Breed. (OOC: The highest rank Yeren is still Rank 3)

I hope this presentation was helpful to all the newcomers to Project Lycaon, if not see me after this. I will make sure you learn it.

-------------------------------------------------------

So, these are the Mockery Breeds Pentex created so far. Anything interesting? Would you play as one? I always wanted to play a Samsa for example.

*The Totem Cockroach is willing to teach Samsa because he is the greatest survivor. He is intending to survive even if the Wyrm wins and Gaia loses and Samsa, while might not be his creation they are still his children and he knows his children adapt to survive anything. So basically if the Wyrm wins he will live through Samsa and if the Wyrm loses he is thinking of converting Samsa into Gaia's side.
Yes, Glass Walkers feel sad that one of their Totem is willing to teach Samsa and feel even worse because the Totem isn't saying anything about it.

Triumvirate_PHO · Jan 27, 2022

Ever wondered what it would be like if there was a vampire bloodline or clan in VTM that had the "evolution" thing that the vampires in Blood Omen/Legacy of Kain have?

Maragas · Jan 27, 2022

Triumvirate_PHO said:
Ever wondered what it would be like if there was a vampire bloodline or clan in VTM that had the "evolution" thing that the vampires in Blood Omen/Legacy of Kain have?

That's Tzimisce. Some hardcore ones even follow it to the extremes and become Metamorphosists.

Ragura · Jan 27, 2022

Mockery Breeds are FUN! There are even some fanmade ones and expansions

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/284059/Mockery-breed-Murder-birds
Were-Cassowaries. They are one of the easiest breeds to get started with as their Gift system is very simple.
Sebastian Lindeberg has written quite a bit and all of his books are very good.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/312785/Tribebook-Mockery-Breeds by Victor Gloom and its expansions
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/313846/Mockery-Breeds-Players-Handbook and
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/365690/Breedbook-Anurana-Weretoads
Definitely worth a look, both for the NEW mockery breed and the alternate origin of the mockery breeds as de-extincted Gaian shapeshifters.

He has since also made Wereowls https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/352773/Breedbook-Tecolotes-Wereowls

and Ben Allsop and Sam Myatt made Weremoles https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/336169/Moldwarps
they are also two of the best Vampire fan authors.

And while I am already sharing my favorites, here are a few more

shadowdice · Jan 27, 2022

gale said:
Not really? OWOD is not like NWOD. It is not the same setting with every splat linked. Each is there own. Folks also hated the system for demons and some hated the Christianity theme.

The latter part always confused me

just, you are playing Demons in a setting which already has figures like Caine, Catholic inquisitions, and more

killgore444 · Jan 27, 2022

shadowdice said:
The latter part always confused me

just, you are playing Demons in a setting which already has figures like Caine, Catholic inquisitions, and more

But the way God acks in the story of Caine in VtM wasn't actually THAT off base to what most Christians think of when they think of the story of Cain at all. And all of the rest is mortals making shit up. Demon had God as a character, and did it in a pretty insulting way. That's going to get a reaction from your players who are faithful.
Me personally, I liked the 1st ed of each of the games the best (except WtA since that was the only one I didn't get 1st ed). There were a lot of plot holes and mistakes, but they were easy to house rule around, and the 2nd ed version of the rules tended to screw things up much worse.
Don't get me wrong, there were a LOT of problems with them, but I found them better then the revisions.

Triumvirate_PHO · Jan 27, 2022

Maragas said:
That's Tzimisce. Some hardcore ones even follow it to the extremes and become Metamorphosists.

Oh yeah. The Tzimisce are like the closest thing to Kain's vampires when it comes to altering their own bodies.

Hey, quick idea:
A young Kindred (VTM) decides to go hunting down the vampires on the Red List in an attempt to diablerize them and gain some measure of their power. Whether they succeed or not is up for debate.

Maragas · Jan 27, 2022

killgore444 said:
Demon had God as a character, and did it in a pretty insulting way. That's going to get a reaction from your players who are faithful.

Personally, as someone who is religious though from Muslim side (which means the whole Fall wouldn't even have happened according to my beliefs

), it can be explained by a single fact, it's written from Demon perspective.

So it's not surprising if it's seen in a pretty insulting way. Though even they can't twist away how their Rebellion was unjustified and was the very reason the future they feared and rebelled against. Every Demon, every House of the Fallen is built upon failure upon failure mixed with bitter irony.

Hmm, you know what, I think I can archive their post sooner than later with all the Demon talk.

Maragas · Jan 27, 2022

It's time to talk about the Changelings or Fae.
You want some deep and insightful TLDR to the whole Changeling business? They are basically Bygones struggling to stay on Earth against ever-increasing Unbelief.

But here are some details for those who want to get their teeth into possibly the most colorful and mystical splat of WoD.

Long long ago, before the humans accomplished great things like "Wheel" we had nightmares, and those nightmares were real. Quite literally as from those nightmares rose the Dark Fae, Fomorians. Against them rose up Nature Fae, born from nature itself from the anguish of humans.
They fought and both sides killed each other until a final and probably very cinematic fight. They both failed to destroy each other but Nature Fae also failed to destroy the Dark Fae.

At this point, our dreams become real and rise up to challenge the Dark Fae, called the Light Fae aka Sidhe. Sidhe and Fomorians fought with Nature Fae joining Sidhe against the Fomorians.
The Dark Fae is defeated in another very cinematic and dramatic fight.

Then in the next few centuries, Fae fought among each other separated by Courts while humanity was quietly developing its own. Until one-day humans realized "Hey, iron is a thing" and bam. All Fae got fucked.
Like, not even joking. The moment the first iron object was created by human hands The Dreaming got separated from the mundane world.

This was the start of the Banality aka Unbelief aka Consensus. Fae likes to use the words "Stagnation" or "Normalization" and yeah, it's that but it's also rationalizing, categorizing, and explaining the fantastic. (Which means funny enough the Order of Hermes should be full of Banality but eh)
This Banality slowly increased through the centuries until it was too suffocating to survive in the Renaissance. (Damn you Order of Reason! Look at what you done! /s)

So all Fae had three options.
-A)Retreat into private realms in the Autumn World aka Mundane World. This resulted in many going mad and becoming Lost Ones.
-B)Retreat into the Dreaming. The rulers and influential Fae mostly choose to go back to their domains in Arcadia the homeland of the Fae. And while doing it they basically cut the line and caused a bunch of commoner Fae to get stuck on Earth as the nobles took their place.
-C)Use the Changeling Way ritual to meld their Fae soul with a human soul and undergo endless rebirth. Using the flesh of mortals as a shield against Banality. (Before this most Changelings were either Fae and Humans breeding or more likely, stolen human babies.)

And we are done. There were other events like Banality increasing and decreasing, wars, and gate to Arcadia opening again thanks to the surge of imagination and creativity from the Moon Landing (Thank you Void Engineers!)
... Which resulted in a bunch of Noble Fae from Arcadia coming in and getting stuck when it closed again. Which caused most of those Nobles to forcefully separate souls from humans to take their bodies to shield themselves against Banality and now tensions are running high between commoners and nobles.

Lastly, before I end the history segment I should let you guys know that the actual history of Fae might not be this. Or they might not even have history. Fae are creatures of the Dream and like everything about them, nothing is set to stone.
Their history might be as imaginary as themselves.

Anyway, now that you know how Faes came to be and how Changelings exists, let's go over Changeling types!

They are Hobbits mixed with House Elfs. Even Unseelie Boggan are very welcoming and cheerful little buggers. They are born from dreams of Charity, Service and Vengeance. Vengeance may seem strange but remember, voe the person who breaks the rights of hospitality.
Their lifestyle is based on comfort. A well-stocked pantry, drinks, and comfortable furniture is their bread and butter. They have godly talent in the kitchen and an eye for art and design.
They are also busybodies and know all the gossip and intelligence in their court. They are mostly curious about but some are more..."curious" about how to use it for their benefit.

Their primary weakness is the fact that they need to willfully stop themselves from helping someone in actual need as long as it's not their sworn enemy.

You know the leprechauns tales? They may say in-lore it's just distorted tales of these guys but it's basically true. They love telling stories, making jokes, and getting into a brawl. Most importantly, they turn into Smaug when it comes to things they collect.
They also like wearing greenish clothes but not as small as leprechauns described. Though they tend to be on the shorter side. Their residence depends on their source of obsession. If it's portable then it's likely that they are nomadic. If it's not, then they can settle into someplace.

Their weakness, as I said, hoarding. They must collect and increase their collection. And if they are separated from their collection more than a week they go through Banality.

The nomadic Eshu. They are wanderers of the earth, forever searching for new stories, new sights and new secrets. Always in pursuit of some new knowledge. Many people unknowingly share their dearest secrets over campfire later to realize it's now common knowledge.
And funny enough, all Eshu are incredibly private. Not sharing their personal lives and their traditions with outsiders. It's in their nature to search for new things to learn and because of that, it's very hard to keep up with an Eshu. If you are friends with an Eshu, either be prepared to follow them around like a lost puppy or be prepared to be left behind as an Eshu will seek new friends that are more interesting than you now that you have nothing new.

An Eshu can't resist a dare, a bet or an adventure if it means they will learn something new.

Born from legends of dwarfs, kobolds and goblins, toiling endlessly in search of something.
They are basically foul-mouthed dwarfs that can't help but destroy their social network. Because unlike all the tools and machines they can make, people are too mysterious and complex. They are also somewhat grotesque like the legends of the things they are born from but they are still decent looking. No Nosferatu here.
Nockers are incredible craftsmen and innovators but horrible at all social stuff. If you are a Nocker, people are imperfect and most things don't match your idea of perfection.

Which makes their weakness incredibly ironic. Because no matter what they make, how powerful or great it is, it is still flawed. And Storyteller can at any stressful situation ask you to roll for it to see if it screws you and your group as it breaks or fails.

This is it for now. I don't expect to make the next part for Changeling for a long time since it's not my cup of tea but still, people interested in WoD should know about it.
So, which one sounds perfect for you so far? Anything else you would like me to summarize?

Maragas · Jan 27, 2022

It is finally the time to talk about Demon the Fallen. More specifically types of Demons aka Fallen Angels determined by their role in the creation of the universe before they Fell.

There are seven different Houses of Demons you could find in WoD.
(By the way, by Demons I am talking about 100% Actual Demons, not Umbral or Abyssal Demons who largely mimic/take the names and appearances of these Demons. These are the actual Fallen Angels. Any other, say Umbral Lucifer/Satan or Abyssal Lucifer/Satan, ain't same as Demon the Fallen Lucifer. Unless ST makes it so)

Once they were the greatest of God's angels. The standard-bearers of Heaven and champions of Humanity. They are charismatic but deceitful to the core and at that core lies Pride unseen anywhere else. Pride that they were the greatest of the angels, Pride that turned into overwhelming arrogance and Pride that led them to reject the Creator's wisdom for their own wisdom.
And greatest of the Heralds were the Lucifer the Morningstar, and so House of the Devils is also known as the House of the Morning Star.

And this is perhaps why after half of the Heralds followed Lucifer into his rebellion, most also rebelled against him in the Time of Atrocities. Believing their own wisdom was greater than that of the Morningstar.

In the end, all Devils are charismatic masterminds. Confident, deceitful and prone to being arrogant. Which covers their doubts, shames and regrets which they could never actually show to anyone. And thus they are prone to acts of foolish bravery and courage to cover them up.

The Fates, the Oracles and now the Fiends. They were the angels in charge of the very mechanisms of the universe. The directors of stars, masters of patterns, engineers of the cosmos and the weavers of probability. They set the motions and kept the motions going along with its consequences.

Now they are masters of nightmares and curses, now they don't give warnings or wisdom but forbidden knowledge and madness-inducing visions. And from their vain wisdom, one Oracle in particular called Ahrimal shared the news of an uncertain future fast approaching with others against the orders of the Vigil, the leader of the Fates after believing that the future was caused by ignorance of Humanity. A future of doom and a world of darkness. Causing the sparks of rebellion to bloom into a fire.

And so they caused the very doom and darkness they feared. The bleak future they foresaw was born from the very actions of the Fallen Angels. The cataclysm was upon them and they were the instruments of its creation. Lucifer's rebellion was the very cause of the future they wanted to avoid.
Each and every fiend from the lowliest to the highest remember that day, the day where they become full of guilt and shame. The choice to rebel that ruined the creation haunts them to this very day.

But another great regret would also happen, the day Caine killed Abel. They let it happen.

They foresaw Caine killing his brother and this causing a set of concepts to be born like Murder and Deceit. But they also saw it help the Fallen Angels in their war, if they let it happen Fallen Angels were seen as winning the war against Heaven.
The Fiends debated heavily, first thinking they should prevent it as it was their moral duty and what they should have done if they truly loved humanity but...if they let it happen, if they let the First Murder happen, wouldn't it be worth it if it meant Rebels winning? Not to mention the sweet temptation of altering the universe to their own will rather than God's was tantalizing.
Only Ahrimal, the doom bringer attempted to prevent it. He went to see Lucifer but he was dismissed. He tried to avert it himself but he also arrived too late to only see brother killing brother.

Now, they are haunted demons damned by curiosity. They search for people in pursuit of knowledge and depending on the Fiend they either help them with enlightenment or turn them mad with half truths, misinformation and with forbidden secrets that scars the mind. Their favorite targets and the most despised ones are those who seek quick answers, like how to get rich.

The Reapers, the angels of Death, the Afterlife and the Second World. Now they are only known as the Slayers. They were the last House to be created, for some, they were the least of the houses and for some, the greatest.
In the past every time something died a Reaper was there, remembering and recording it and carrying it to the true realm of the dead. A realm barred to all other Angels but the Reapers. From which the souls will pass on to the future Second World.

But they never knew the actual details of the Second World and questioned it. Among them was the leader of the Reapers Usiel, the one everyone thought would rebel first as he was the first one who questioned God and thus he was invited to the meeting of Ahrimal, where the rebellion started.

But as he listened to the concerns of Ahrimal and the others he realized something. The prospect of rebellion on such limited knowledge from incomplete hymns of science and fear, especially from those who can't even understand the world of Death and confused it with the Second World, was chilling.
So he stood against the rebellion, he would not induct the humans into the world of death until God said so and there would be no rebellion from his house until His Plans along with the purpose of the Second World was revealed.

As he left the discussion, Usiel was only worried by the sadness he felt from Lucifer, and not a small amount of fear towards him. Why though?

And so only a few of the Reapers joined the rebellion. But those who did had some core members among them. Such as Azrael, Madisel and Charon*. And those who joined the rebellion did out of getting close to Humans.
This is why they created the Underworld.

Rebel Reapers now called Slayers were barred from the true afterlife but they wanted humans they become so close to continue living like they did after they died. Thus Charon with his host of Slayers began working on a new pocket reality, a reality called Haven that was a repository of all things that had passed away, where aspects of the material world transferred into it at the moment of their dissolution.
This way they could..."save" humans souls and the previous life the souls had from God's plan (Which they still had no idea)
Too bad it was imperfect and was left to rot after they were imprisoned in Hell.

As for how they function in modern times, well, they are loners and their way of gathering faith is difficult if they aren't a high torment demon. They usually copy another House, such as pretending to be a Devil, and/or create a Death-Cult. Especially at high torment levels.
Their main weakness is that because of their, well...role in existence they are very detached from everything and they are stubborn like a goat. It's very hard for a Reaper to admit he was wrong or he is doing something wrong after they are certain.

*Not Charon of Stygia, though even the Slayers thought it was Demon Charon masquerading as Wraith Charon at first as Charon was never in Hell. But there may be some connections. Ghost of Lance of Longinus was in Charon's palace after all.
They have two leading theories. Either Charon the Slayer is in the Far Shores (and he created them) or Charon became something alien, something eldritch and he lies within this new thing called the Labyrinth that leads to the Oblivion.

killgore444 · Jan 27, 2022

Maragas said:
Personally, as someone who is religious though from Muslim side (which means the whole Fall would even have happened according to my beliefs ), it can be explained by a single fact, it's written from Demon perspective.

That's pretty much what I decided. It was all just self justification and selective memory.
Although in all honesty, even though I love MtA, no one else in my game group at the time did, and I used the rules from DtF to represent mages in my VtM game. For demons I used the rules from Aberrant, and just said magic instead of quantum.

AlphaWolf112480 · Jan 27, 2022

So is this Thread only for World of Darkness, or also Chronicles of Darkness(nWOD)
if yes for both
I do have a question

Which "Mortal" Splat, do y'all think is theoretically stronger, the WOD or nWOD? Also, not stronger in the sense of going 1 v 1 with a Supernatural creature and winning. I'm talking about long term survivability and potentially thriving in the setting.
If you had to make a character build (As to limitations on the build, there kinda isnt any)
You have access to everything a Mortal character can legally get. Supernatural merits, supplement books, Lesser templates, etc
and then are being sent to the world, Survive, thrive, etc.
Becoming a Main Monster Splat of any kind is a lose condition.

But you also have access to hunter splats if you want. Hunter splats, since they are still Human.

Which version of Mortal/Hunter would y'all choose, WOD or nWOD.

gale · Jan 27, 2022

Maragas said:
I

OOC
Ah Samsa, I always wanted to play them at least once.

Pentex doesn't know the golden goose they created. And how it escaped their clutches.

Werecockroaches are incredibly intriguing. They are nearly a match for a Werewolf in their Crinos equivalent. They have one of the best survival abilities in the whole World of Darkness. They are completely immune to Pollution and Radiation and their only weakness is Insecticides. And while they aren't capable of sidestepping to the Umbra, the Cockroach totem is willing to teach them his gifts, along with will all the Cockroach spirits.* They have Gnosis just like Anurana which basically makes them automatically better than War Wolves.

Don't werespiders hate them a shit load?

Maragas · Jan 27, 2022

AlphaWolf112480 said:
So is this Thread only for World of Darkness, or also Chronicles of Darkness(nWOD)
if yes for both
I do have a question

Which "Mortal" Splat, do y'all think is theoretically stronger, the WOD or nWOD? Also, not stronger in the sense of going 1 v 1 with a Supernatural creature and winning. I'm talking about long term survivability and potentially thriving in the setting.
If you had to make a character build (As to limitations on the build, there kinda isnt any)
You have access to everything a Mortal character can legally get. Supernatural merits, supplement books, Lesser templates, etc
and then are being sent to the world, Survive, thrive, etc.
Becoming a Main Monster Splat of any kind is a lose condition.

But you also have access to hunter splats if you want. Hunter splats, since they are still Human.

Which version of Mortal/Hunter would y'all choose, WOD or nWOD.

Yes for both.

gale said:
Don't werespiders hate them a shit load?

Samsa are unknown to Werespiders (and pretty much the whole world) to even hate them. But if their origins are known they probably hate them.

gereh · Jan 27, 2022

shadowdice said:
The latter part always confused me

just, you are playing Demons in a setting which already has figures like Caine, Catholic inquisitions, and more

From what I remembered it wasn't so much the whole Christianity Themes, but the whole "Lucifer created Christianity, to fuck over the Earthbound" Part that got people mad at it.

Also my personal problem with the whole DtF backstory is that it's a bit to simple. It's like "okay here is how it was..." instead of "the Abyss tainted everyone's Memory, so everyone remembers the Events leading up to the Fall and the Banishment differently (which would have made sense, with the whole different things happened at the same time, on different layers of reality), also here are three popular theories (which maybe all true and they just have happened on different layers, or maybe non of them is true...). I personally would have enjoyed that a lot more.

Repentant_Dragos · Jan 28, 2022

AlphaWolf112480 said:
So is this Thread only for World of Darkness, or also Chronicles of Darkness(nWOD)
if yes for both
I do have a question

Which "Mortal" Splat, do y'all think is theoretically stronger, the WOD or nWOD? Also, not stronger in the sense of going 1 v 1 with a Supernatural creature and winning. I'm talking about long term survivability and potentially thriving in the setting.
If you had to make a character build (As to limitations on the build, there kinda isnt any)
You have access to everything a Mortal character can legally get. Supernatural merits, supplement books, Lesser templates, etc
and then are being sent to the world, Survive, thrive, etc.
Becoming a Main Monster Splat of any kind is a lose condition.

But you also have access to hunter splats if you want. Hunter splats, since they are still Human.

Which version of Mortal/Hunter would y'all choose, WOD or nWOD.

nWoD/CofD, although note that it's other people who say that Mortals are stronger there; I never experienced it firsthand.

Edit: What I have experienced, though, is that Willpower in CofD/nWoD is easier to gain than in oWoD.

killgore444 · Jan 28, 2022

gereh said:
From what I remembered it wasn't so much the whole Christianity Themes, but the whole "Lucifer created Christianity, to fuck over the Earthbound" Part that got people mad at it.

OK, this part I'll admit I missed, and yes, it would have changed my attitude about the game. Unless it was clearly in in person reference from Lucy himself were he was fucking with someone.

Also my personal problem with the whole DtF backstory is that it's a bit to simple. It's like "okay here is how it was..." instead of "the Abyss tainted everyone's Memory, so everyone remembers the Events leading up to the Fall and the Banishment differently (which would have made sense, with the whole different things happened at the same time, on different layers of reality), also here are three popular theories (which maybe all true and they just have happened on different layers, or maybe non of them is true...). I personally would have enjoyed that a lot more.

They kind of did this anyway. No one ever says it, but when I read the PoV history lessons, each different PoV said something completely different. At the time I thought it was annoying, since I wanted to integrate it into my WoD game, but I later decided it was the best option as it gave me a canon out for saying everything printed in later books was wrong, a lie, or a fantasy any individual demon came up with to justify herself.

Sydonai · Jan 28, 2022

killgore444 said:
No one ever says it, but when I read the PoV history lessons, each different PoV said something completely different. At the time I thought it was annoying, since I wanted to integrate it into my WoD game

IIRC this was because they were all true, simultaneously.
Yes, that makes no sense, so what? Reality fucking broke.
Of course things got weird.

Maragas · Jan 28, 2022

There are several explanations, some of them are even canonical explanations.

Take for example, Demons. They are not only incredibly biased, its been also a long ass time since things happened and they have been in literally Hell for thousands of years in torment. Plus their means of staying out of Hell, possessing people, causes their memories to fragment.

Then we have reality as a whole getting broken and splintering. Then Humans fucking it up even further by Consensus and Reality zones. Maybe not as Caine fucked the reality but it doesn't need to be.

It is surprising that reality as a whole still functions decently. Probably thanks to Consensus ironically, all the Disbelief and Paradox did a great job stoping most harmful aspects of it.

killgore444 · Jan 29, 2022

Maragas said:
]It is surprising that reality as a whole still functions decently. Probably thanks to Consensus ironically, all the Disbelief and Paradox did a great job stoping most harmful aspects of it.

But wouldn't God, per the Celestial Choir, BE Consensus? A Consensus of 2 granted at the time, but Consensus all the same. My old theory was that demons were rogue paradox spirits. Really screwed with the players when I first presented that.

Maragas · Jan 29, 2022

killgore444 said:
But wouldn't God, per the Celestial Choir, BE Consensus? A Consensus of 2 granted at the time, but Consensus all the same. My old theory was that demons were rogue paradox spirits. Really screwed with the players when I first presented that.

Per some of the Celestial Chorus perhaps but it's not like they have only one leading theory about it. Though over all they are more correct about the nature of God and Humanity.

But overall lore is this, spread through DTF, VTM, MTAs and Hunter.

God/The One created humans through Angel's, put his divine essence aka divine seed aka Avatars aka "Made in his image" and Fallen Angel's caused our Descension*.

So in technicality, which 99% in WoD wouldn't even know about, God/The One is humans but separate. It is paradoxical yes, but it's the norm**. Just like how Adam and Eve literally split into millions of humans when Lucifer made them leave Eden***. (Which is a nice reference to more Eastern beliefs. The One created Two, Two become Four, Four become Many)

*

**I mean it when I say it's the norm. Why God punished Humans if they are God? Even in ToJ Judgement, it's revealed that everything bad that happened to Humans happened because Humans made it so.

***So really, all Avatars are shards of Two Avatars, Adam and Eve.

killgore444 · Jan 29, 2022

Maragas said:
Per some of the Celestial Chorus perhaps but it's not like they have only one leading theory about it. Though over all they are more correct about the nature of God and Humanity.

But overall lore is this, spread through DTF, VTM, MTAs and Hunter.

God/The One created humans through Angel's, put his divine essence aka divine seed aka Avatars aka "Made in his image" and Fallen Angel's caused our Descension*.

So in technicality, which 99% in WoD wouldn't even know about, God/The One is humans but separate. It is paradoxical yes, but it's the norm**. Just like how Adam and Eve literally split into millions of humans when Lucifer made them leave Eden***. (Which is a nice reference to more Eastern beliefs. The One created Two, Two become Four, Four become Many)

**I mean it when I say it's the norm. Why God punished Humans if they are God? Even in ToJ Judgement, it's revealed that everything bad that happened to Humans happened because Humans made it so.

***So really, all Avatars are shards of Two Avatars, Adam and Eve.

Please remember, I came up with that before Demon even came out, and even after that, we/I played 1sr ed on all the WoD games except Werewolf, so there wasn't any Avatar Storm.
And the whole humans punishing themselves, that was just a paradox backlash from one of the two first Mages.Because once there's more than one, they might disagree on what's possible.

That was after (before?) one of the most powerful paradox spirits, alla lucy, decided to go rogue and convinced others to go with him.

Of course, the creation of Eve was a life/spirit/prime effect, when "HE" split of his female organ and made himself male, and created a female to be his companion. Before that, humanity (Adam) was hermaphroditic.

Maragas · Jan 29, 2022

killgore444 said:
Of course, the creation of Eve was a life/spirit/prime effect, when "HE" split of his female organ and made himself male, and created a female to be his companion. Before that, humanity (Adam) was hermaphroditic.

Sounds like what Zeus did to humanity, splitting them in two, Male and Female where once they were both.

(I mean mythology by the way, not WoD in case you get confused)

killgore444 · Jan 29, 2022

Maragas said:
Sounds like what Zeus did to humanity, splitting them in two, Male and Female where once they were both.

(I mean mythology by the way, not WoD in case you get confused)

It's were I got the idea in the first place (I think, it's been a while).

shadowdice · Feb 6, 2022

having looked through my v5 books again

the writers really continue to fuck things up when it comes to the Setites if it isn't supposed to be them being high on their own farts

Like them referring to Kali and Ahura Mazda as enemies of the divine.

Just

One is easily just due to bad movies, the other though, that is the exact opposite and the only way I can see this is the writer just copy pasting things without reading anything, or intentionally making the Setites look fucking stupid.

General World of Darkness Discussion Thread QQ Edition

Versed in the lewd.

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I, Triumvirate_PHO, just want a lewd life

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I, Triumvirate_PHO, just want a lewd life

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Well worn.

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I trust you know where the happy button is?

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Connoisseur.

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