General World of Darkness Discussion Thread QQ Edition

[shadowdice]

So I booted up CK3 on the weekend, including the Princes of Darkness mod, haven't really played that mod since release. Turns out there have been a lot of updates that came out for the mod, since then. It's still as unbalanced as ever (played Goratrix, got learning to 80 and Prowess to 100, as I turned france in a Tremere Empire) , but still a lot of fun. So in case you are like me and haven't tried since release I recommend giving it a try (you can now also play as Demons or Werewolves btw.)

P.s. Also that lead me to thinking about V5 again yesterday... aka I got angry about them ruining all my favourite clans.

Click to shrink...

They are likely to do so with all their settings

 

[heralding_bubble]

would be neat if the wiki had noWoD and oWoD stuff separate.

 

[gereh]

They are likely to do so with all their settings

Click to shrink...

Can you run that by me again, maybe it'S because I'm overworked right now, but somehow I'm not sure which part you referring too.

 

[Skitzyfrenic]

Can you run that by me again, maybe it'S because I'm overworked right now, but somehow I'm not sure which part you referring too.

Click to shrink...

Ruin all of their settings, I assume, is what shadowdice meant.

I cherry pick the fuck out of lore off the Wiki for the most part, for convivence, and so my opinion on the oWoD and WoD5 lore changes are pretty milquetoast.

They didn't do Hunter or (are doing) Werewolf justice from my understanding (Haven't cracked them open). I expect them to flub Mage despite Paradox dice sounding pretty amazing actually, and might do okay with Changeling since they're dredging up nWoD stuff here and there and my understanding of Changeling is that the Lost was better than the Dreaming.

DtF basically requires a lore rework when one of the biggest complaints is that it reaffirmed blatantly that Abrahamic religion was the true mythos, which VtM did by having Caine be the Dark Father, Lilith be the Dark Mother, involving the land of Nod, and interacting with that but whatever. Thought I'm also pretty sure in the same breath they say that all origin stories are true. But the person explaining how the fallen came to be was a pastor's son and he could just be using a familiar framework since the fallen are fucking insane and require a mortal anchor, so, YMMV. I like it so long as I treat it more like 'the creators and architects of the universe had a civil war on whether it was more important to include humanity directly or indirectly' and keep in mind all origin myths are true in some sense.

If D5 ever comes into existence it's very likely to flop.

 

[gereh]

Ruin all of their settings, I assume, is what shadowdice meant.

Click to shrink...

Jokes on them, half of them are so bad you can't ruin them any futher... (imo).

But yeah, if we talk mechanics than all the nWoD stuff is superior to the oWoD. But people like the Lore of the oWoD games more, now 5e combines oWoD mechanics (with some twists that may or not work for you) with nWoD type Lore aspects... Wonder why fans aren't happy with that?

I cherry pick the fuck out of lore off the Wiki for the most part, for convivence, and so my opinion on the oWoD and WoD5 lore changes are pretty milquetoast.

Click to shrink...

I mean 99% of the lore changes are bad (the 1% that aren't is that there are less racist stereotypes), but the problem I have with V5 is that it also made it less fun to play certain clans, by enforcing heavy penalties on them.

On the other hand Hunter is actually fun to play (but it doesn't have anything to do with the previous Hunter splat, so it's a good game just not a good Hunter game and the Lore can be questionable)

I expect them to flub Mage despite Paradox dice sounding pretty amazing actually, and might do okay with Changeling since they're dredging up nWoD stuff here and there and my understanding of Changeling is that the Lost was better than the Dreaming.

DtF basically requires a lore rework when one of the biggest complaints is that it reaffirmed blatantly that Abrahamic religion was the true mythos, which VtM did by having Caine be the Dark Father, Lilith be the Dark Mother, involving the land of Nod, and interacting with that but whatever. Thought I'm also pretty sure in the same breath they say that all origin stories are true. But the person explaining how the fallen came to be was a pastor's son and he could just be using a familiar framework since the fallen are fucking insane and require a mortal anchor, so, YMMV. I like it so long as I treat it more like 'the creators and architects of the universe had a civil war on whether it was more important to include humanity directly or indirectly' and keep in mind all origin myths are true in some sense.

If D5 ever comes into existence it's very likely to flop.

Click to shrink...

I don't think they will make a new Demon, there is a reason they never made a D20 version. Pretty sure that after Werewolf they are going to make Mage and then Wraith.

 

[shadowdice]

The story rant thread got sidetracked by explaining werewolves kidnapping wolves to use in eugenics

in in a funnier note I realized that an exaggerated Habsburg jaw could fit as a Nos deformity

 

[Skitzyfrenic]

The story rant thread got sidetracked by explaining werewolves kidnapping wolves to use in eugenics

Click to shrink...

But they actually do that...

in in a funnier note I realized that an exaggerated Habsburg jaw could fit as a Nos deformity

Click to shrink...

In V5 for sure. Where they're about as ugly as the Nossie dude from Kindred the Embrace.

You'd have to add a bit more in older editions.

 

[shadowdice]

But they actually do that...

Click to shrink...

Yes, though 5e gutted it along with most of the lore, plenty of other stuff, and decided to change a lot of the clans while making the Get of Fenris just plain Nazis

meanwhile the Silver Fangs are right there

In V5 for sure. Where they're about as ugly as the Nossie dude from Kindred the Embrace.

You'd have to add a bit more in older editions.

Click to shrink...

I do mean exaggerated when I say exaggerated

like a "That doesn't look human" version of how Charles II of Spain was described

might be funnier if he was just full of genetic problems before the embrace and becoming a Nos is the only reason he is a functional entity physically

V5 Nos all disappoint me and often ignore the lore of how there were already ones that accepted their deformities.

Just, Chicago by night and its many add ons in V5 made me want to bang my head on a wall

 

[heralding_bubble]

Spoiler: big picture

 

[Ragura]

Discovered an awesome quest on SB World of Darkness Noir

 

[shadowdice]

the devs of the new game made it so you have a thin blood stuck in your head asking about how vampires work and explaining modern stuff

Please god no

Ghouls are a thing

They could have just had a ghoul that was some poor schmuck that was near when you woke up and became a combo dinner and manservant

 

[Skitzyfrenic]

Yeah. It's Johnny Vamphand the newb.

My expectations were already low, but they've started tunneling.

A ghoul, freshly turned baby Vamp, or even just a thinblood that was there when you woke up and is now your bitch for your character to explain basic bitch shit to would have been much better. And could go away after the tutorial stage.

 

[shadowdice]

Yeah. It's Johnny Vamphand the newb.

My expectations were already low, but they've started tunneling.

A ghoul, freshly turned baby Vamp, or even just a thinblood that was there when you woke up and is now your bitch for your character to explain basic bitch shit to would have been much better. And could go away after the tutorial stage.

Click to shrink...

The video they showed during that interview had the footage reused for a trailer as well

Assamites/Banu Haqim get released before the Malks

you have dialogue based on the clothes you wear but can't customize your character's appearance that much


but on the Not a Johnny named Fabian (which feels like a name you would get to insult in a lot of games) they are so completely off the mark it is funny

Get a Renfield type character not someone in your head. Have there be a mental connection if you really want by saying it is an elder power but have it be a person that is physically around

companion characters are liked for a reason

make it so you can have your Ghoul/blood bound thin blood carry shit for you and they will be used as a pack mule

there is so fucking much you can do with an elder vampire and their modern servant

like say it is a thin blood or newly turned vamp that frenzied when eating

Baby Vamp: Oh god they're dead. I didn't meant to. I just, wait we can save them. We can turn them into a vampire

Choice 1: That is a breach of our society's rules. One must request permission for siring and if found out you can be given Final Death in any number of excruciatingly painful ways

Choice 2: *crush the corpse's skull* Oh no, they are completely dead. Now, Fledgeling, you need to learn how to clean up when you make a mess eating. First, what comes to mind first in this era when it comes to disposing of a corpse. It will co e up often.

Choice 3: Haha, no

Choice 4: That is an incredibly bad idea, but now is the time to learn from mistakes and try to avoid this situation in the future.

the baby vamp explains the concept of the local version of twilight and you have any number of reactions on how your elder feels about Lupines

that and showing what the fuck your character is actually going to say instead of the goddamn 3 word statements that are just a dialogue wheel

 

[Skitzyfrenic]

Assamites/Banu Haqim get released before the Malks

Click to shrink...

This is a bit understandable. To do Malks right you have to redo all the dialogue. Just like doing Nossies means you have to make the underways more interesting than VTMB1.

I don't like it, but I can understand why we have to wait on Nossies and Malks. What I'm not a fan of is that they went with Ventrue instead of Lasombra, imo.

But it's PDX so they're going to milk us for that sweet, sweet overpriced DLC money.

you have dialogue based on the clothes you wear but can't customize your character's appearance that much

Click to shrink...

Yeah, that's dumb. But very on brand for modern gaming. Focus on things that matter much less, lines of dialogue, instead of things that do matter, character customization. Sure, there was basically none in VTMB1, but this is [Current Year] and VTMB2 is somewhere between AA and AAA. Not that niche cult game of the first one.

but on the Not a Johnny named Fabian (which feels like a name you would get to insult in a lot of games) they are so completely off the mark it is funny

Click to shrink...

Don't forget the Elder is named Fyre!

the baby vamp explains the concept of the local version of twilight and you have any number of reactions on how your elder feels about Lupines

that and showing what the fuck your character is actually going to say instead of the goddamn 3 word statements that are just a dialogue wheel

Click to shrink...

A much better choice but you know what it isn't?

Easily copied derivative bullshit. Given the absolute hell that was the Dev cycle I wouldn't be surprised if this is just as rushed as CP2077 was. Making the in head Thinblood even more laughable.

 

[shadowdice]

This is a bit understandable. To do Malks right you have to redo all the dialogue. Just like doing Nossies means you have to make the underways more interesting than VTMB1.

I don't like it, but I can understand why we have to wait on Nossies and Malks. What I'm not a fan of is that they went with Ventrue instead of Lasombra, imo.

But it's PDX so they're going to milk us for that sweet, sweet overpriced DLC money.

Yeah, that's dumb. But very on brand for modern gaming. Focus on things that matter much less, lines of dialogue, instead of things that do matter, character customization. Sure, there was basically none in VTMB1, but this is [Current Year] and VTMB2 is somewhere between AA and AAA. Not that niche cult game of the first one.


Don't forget the Elder is named Fyre!

A much better choice but you know what it isn't?

Easily copied derivative bullshit. Given the absolute hell that was the Dev cycle I wouldn't be surprised if this is just as rushed as CP2077 was. Making the in head Thinblood even more laughable.

Click to shrink...

Part of the thing is that there are a lot of games you could easily make with VTM

Like, people made a world of darkness ck2 mod or whatever and that works.

And a lot of them would even be cheap

You could make a business/intrigue manager game with minimal cutscenes and voice acting that people will play so long as it has a good gameplay look.

There is a vampire mode for Plague Inc and that is genuinely one of the more fun ones (I hit a wall on plague inc later for one of the modes for like virus or something and been unable to unlock the stuff after that one. Plus the vampire one is more fun)

The purely text games annoy me due to the price and choices they make (I have yet to find a great female love interest in any of them) and Swansong was a mess.

It shouldn't be this hard for Paradox to put out a good game yet they seem to repeatedly fire a mini-uzi into their balls.

 

[gereh]

But it's PDX so they're going to milk us for that sweet, sweet overpriced DLC money.

Click to shrink...

That doesn't work if the base game isn't good. Like the whole business model is to make a great base game and then bring out over priced dlcs later, but the people are already hooked on your game so they will be willing to pay 20 bucks for a dlc that is worth 10.

Part of the thing is that there are a lot of games you could easily make with VTM

Like, people made a world of darkness ck2 mod or whatever and that works.

Click to shrink...

A mod that was so popular they gave them early access to ck3 so they could release the mod at the same time as ck3 released. I*m still astound nobody was like "wait, we could made money with this"

The purely text games annoy me due to the price and choices they make (I have yet to find a great female love interest in any of them) and Swansong was a mess.

Click to shrink...

I never even thought about looking for a love interest in those games. I guess you have the car in the first(?) one, and I forgot most of what was going on in the other ones. Which doesn't sound good for them, since story is all they have, so me not remembering it doesn't speak to well off them.

It shouldn't be this hard for Paradox to put out a good game yet they seem to repeatedly fire a mini-uzi into their balls.

Click to shrink...

Shadow of New York was great, despite suffering from V5'ness (I will stand by that take). A clear step up from Coteries of New York. I don't understand why they haven't give the studio another project.

Also I think there is a cardgame in the making, like one of those phone card games we have already a million off (and clearly Elder Scrolls: Legend was the best one, it's a shame really that they cut that one). Also everyone can make a "Vampire the Masquerade" game, since they have some license thingy with itch.io, meaning anyone is allowed to male a vtm game, as long it's v5 and is (only) published over itch.io (of course pdx will automatically take part of the earnings when you do so).

 

[shadowdice]

That doesn't work if the base game isn't good. Like the whole business model is to make a great base game and then bring out over priced dlcs later, but the people are already hooked on your game so they will be willing to pay 20 bucks for a dlc that is worth 10.

A mod that was so popular they gave them early access to ck3 so they could release the mod at the same time as ck3 released. I*m still astound nobody was like "wait, we could made money with this"


I never even thought about looking for a love interest in those games. I guess you have the car in the first(?) one, and I forgot most of what was going on in the other ones. Which doesn't sound good for them, since story is all they have, so me not remembering it doesn't speak to well off them.


Shadow of New York was great, despite suffering from V5'ness (I will stand by that take). A clear step up from Coteries of New York. I don't understand why they haven't give the studio another project.

Also I think there is a cardgame in the making, like one of those phone card games we have already a million off (and clearly Elder Scrolls: Legend was the best one, it's a shame really that they cut that one). Also everyone can make a "Vampire the Masquerade" game, since they have some license thingy with itch.io, meaning anyone is allowed to male a vtm game, as long it's v5 and is (only) published over itch.io (of course pdx will automatically take part of the earnings when you do so).

Click to shrink...

The Canada game has no good love interests and gives a Nos that looks normal along with me looking at V5 as they give us an implied teenage boy blood doll that we pay to scare the shit out of and feed on while simultaneously having the writers say we don't write about child abuse

None of the love interests are good and the choices somehow result in me accidentally getting anarch endings several times and not the ones I want. It also locks you out of certain routes with a single early choice because it can't let you progress multiple plotlines (trying to get info from elders locks you out from 2 routes)

hunter is counterintuitive, none of the characters are memorable aboutside of a sassy teenage black girl whose character art doesn't look like a kid to me

they had a Greek one and it wasn't interesting enough for me to go for

they also did stuff like add in art after the release and releasing DLC for text novels

 

[Skitzyfrenic]

Like the whole business model is to make a great base game and then bring out over priced dlcs later, but the people are already hooked on your game so they will be willing to pay 20 bucks for a dlc that is worth 10.

Click to shrink...

You know, that makes me think you've never dealt with Paradox. Or only started with them very, very recently. And probably none of their 4X games except for CK3. CK3 was their best release in a very long time, and it still wasn't as good as it could have been.

That's the normal model, creating a decent to great base game to hook people and then gouge them in DLCs. Not the PDX one. The PDX DLC model is like the Anti-CDPR DLC model. It's not quite microtransaction hell, but it can be a bit close.

CK3 released like 5/6ths done, Imperator Rome was blatantly unfinished with very little flavor, Victoria 3 has had to have multiple system reworks and had only like three nations with any flavor at launch.

Then they use pricey DLC to add in base mechanics that should have been there from the start. Like EUIV with no DLCs might as well be EUVI compared to EUIV at launch. But EUIV with no DLCs might as well be EUII compared to with DLCs it plays so different.

And so on.

HBS Battletech released a single mech skin at full price. A single, unimpressive skin. For a single mech.

A consistent complaint about PDX across pretty much everything they do is how predatory and expensive their DLC policy is. I mean, sure, they say they're going to do better, but I still see people complaining about it, I still see high DLC prices and after reading it go 'this is a $5 DLC they want me to pay $20 for I don't need that in my game*.'

*Prices off the dome to prove my point, not necessarily reflective of actual costs or perceived costs. I didn't bother looking to be sure.

Now, let's disregard PDX's consistently dogshit DLC policy, shitty release states, and consider only that VTMB2 is going through Development Hell. That alone means your best expectation should be 'Alright, it's okay.' And then be not surprised when they offer Clan DLCs like Lasombra that have a small change in game play for Oblivion and charge out the wazoo for something that's 7/8ths little more than a reskin with some small dialogue changes to reflect being Lasombra. Because that's, bare minimum, industry standard.

The biggest and most worth DLCs are going to be Malks and Nossies, which they basically have to do, and both require new dialogue and new behaviors as well as ensuring that the Nossies don't have to Oblivion their way everywhere; Tzimisce and Gangrel because they transform and have animalism; and maybe Hecata because necromantic Oblivion would be a very different play style as well.

They'll probably still be overpriced because instead of Malks+Nossie+Gangrel Clan packs, each one will be doled out seperately.

I strongly doubt that we'll actually get all the Clans, anyways.

 

[shadowdice]

It really should not be that hard to make a good VTM game

like when it comes to swansong. The idea of vampires investigating and uncovering the conspiracy would work

making it spread over three protagonists was a mistake as they should have focused on developing one and making their story great

the main gameplay issue is how they handled skills

they really should have had the persuasion and investigation be dependent on choices instead of skill points there as what they ended up with was terrible

 

[gereh]

You know, that makes me think you've never dealt with Paradox. Or only started with them very, very recently. And probably none of their 4X games except for CK3. CK3 was their best release in a very long time, and it still wasn't as good as it could have been. [...]
CK3 released like 5/6ths done, Imperator Rome was blatantly unfinished with very little flavor, Victoria 3 has had to have multiple system reworks and had only like three nations with any flavor at launch.

Click to shrink...

I actually started with CK2, played EU4 and AoW3 (I think it was 3), before moving onto to CK3, Stellaris and the newer AoW titles and I stand by my take that those where good games (even if I have to say that I didn't play Stellaris on launch, so it could have been a mess). To be fair I never played Victoria, Imperator or HoI, so I can't say much about them. But then again Imperator didn't get the PDX dlc treatment, I mean it got Dlc's but like 5 of them.

A consistent complaint about PDX across pretty much everything they do is how predatory and expensive their DLC policy is. I mean, sure, they say they're going to do better, but I still see people complaining about it, I still see high DLC prices and after reading it go 'this is a $5 DLC they want me to pay $20 for I don't need that in my game*.'

Click to shrink...

Best example is a little gem called "Across the Obelisk" the studio was picked up by PDX, since then they made a lot of questionable dlc's on is priced 20 bucks, which is as much as the base game did cost and only adds one new zone (the base game has 6). I still don't get why anyone would buy that.

But I digress. Let's return to VTMB2

The biggest and most worth DLCs are going to be Malks and Nossies, which they basically have to do, and both require new dialogue and new behaviors as well as ensuring that the Nossies don't have to Oblivion their way everywhere; Tzimisce and Gangrel because they transform and have animalism; and maybe Hecata because necromantic Oblivion would be a very different play style as well.

They'll probably still be overpriced because instead of Malks+Nossie+Gangrel Clan packs, each one will be doled out seperately.

I strongly doubt that we'll actually get all the Clans, anyways.

Click to shrink...

I assume we will see them released based on Disciples, so I assume we will get a Toreador (Presence/Celerity) and "Ministry" (Presence/Obfuscate with some flavour changes that are mostly just different visual effects) first, since those Disciplines already exist in the game. Followed by a "big Dlc" featuring Nos (Obfuscate/Potence).

I would be surprised if we see Gangrel, since both Animalism as well as Protean needs some level of set up, I guess they could release with Nos and have the same Masquerade breach like a Nos when someone sees them with Protean active.

Don't think we will see any "Oblivion" powers, because V5 Oblivion sucks.

I could see Ravnos work and be fun for a stealth focused playthrough, but I'm unsure how they would bring Amalgam powers to the game.

With how beloved Malk was in the original game, they would be stupid not to bring it to VTMB2 (this will most likely be the second "big dlc")

It really should not be that hard to make a good VTM game

Click to shrink...

But why would you really, most games that would work well as VTM game would also work as a stand alone game where you don't have to pay for licenses and I don't think VTM is a big enough of a pull that it would be worth it to buy the license

 

[shadowdice]

Having watched several of the trailers they've released with a friend, both of us were just baffled by the way a lot of the NPCs were talking to an Elder who they KNOW is an Elder

like there is the one that was scared, but that was in a scene where that character was supposed to come off as pathetic

My friend: Wait, you just woke up. Why would you assume it was the mark and not just torpor. Why is a thin blood in your head.

Me: I think it is from tasting his blood given you tasted it when you woke up, so maybe there was some diableriie

My friend: Actually, if you were asleep for like 200 years I think you'd see people with exposed ankles and consider them all harlots

Me:...I kind of want that to be an option but know it won't. Wait, pause and read what that person said about the PC being boring

My friend: This woman has got to be old or else that is asking for suicide.

Us: *looking at battle gameplay where celerity makes it so you can see the bullets freeze in midair* No

My friend: If this is us weakened, then the younger vampires should be shitting themselves when they see us. Like, where is the option to take these people by the throat in dialogue

Me: I was watching the video waiting for an option to actually assert dominance as an elder and say that the favor is us having the graciousness to remember their name

My friend: It should be "I am doing you a favor by letting you be in the same air as me."

Just, unless you are hiding being an elder the way dialogue goes should be incredibly different from what they went with.

Me: Like, if an elder walks up to you and is talking, you should be thinking things like. How old is this elder, do I recognize their name, what clan is he? Because if you mouth off to the level this one has with back sassing and elder, you might get dominated by or in worst case, make a Brujah Frenzy. And now you have a frenzying Elder Brujah]

Friend: Yeah, a brujah frenzying would kill everyone *goes back to the combat scene* Just no. No.

 

[Nervaqus987]

So what I'm getting is that this scene should be happening;

 

[shadowdice]

So what I'm getting is that this scene should be happening;

Click to shrink...

Yes, entirely that.

People joked about how in VTMB the game was mainly just you enforcing horrible new breeds of violence on people.

That was your absurdly Killy 8th gen fledgeling that woke up that day and spent like a week as a vampire (with Cain possibly pulling bullshit on you)

This is a very blood hungry Elder that woke up. The response a lot of people should have is internally wondering if you have methuselah's thirst or might eat them to shake off the drowsiness

 

[shadowdice]

The Coffin of Andy and Leyley fits in fairly well with the weirdness of WoD with adds like "Suicide, is it right for you?" and demon worshipping corporations putting diseases in their soda

And vampirism wouldn't even make all that much of a difference in their already toxic relationship.

 

[shadowdice]

The concept of a recently awoken elder reacting to the insanity of V5 is kind of hilarious to me

Neonate she made: Why did you kill dozens of thin bloods?

Elder: They butchered the story of Caine and made up a lot of idiotic explanations for what they think vampires are while saying they can tell their families about our curse

later upon hearing anarchs say they fed vitae to a baby

Elder: I want to go back to hearing thin bloods fail to comprehend our nature

neonate: did they turn a baby into an addict?

 

[Skitzyfrenic]

Iunno, I think an Elder could come across one of those Thinbloods that do their alchemy in people and be like, 'Tell me more.'

 

[shadowdice]

Iunno, I think an Elder could come across one of those Thinbloods that do their alchemy in people and be like, 'Tell me more.'

Click to shrink...

That's where vivisection and blood bonds come in

 

[shadowdice]

on an unrelated note i've been looking into mage because a friend of mine wants to run a game of that in the victorian era

I ended up creating a nobleman who doesn't trust the poor to look out for themselves and uses hyper economics with a cigar, whiskey, industrial materials, and esoteric absurdity for his tools.

the concept of a guy burning money with expensive tobacco and a glass of whiskey feels both like it came out of voodoo but also like a political sketch from the victorian era about the excesses of the rich, so it is kind of hilarious to me.

 

[Repentant_Dragos]

on an unrelated note i've been looking into mage because a friend of mine wants to run a game of that in the victorian era

I ended up creating a nobleman who doesn't trust the poor to look out for themselves and uses hyper economics with a cigar, whiskey, industrial materials, and esoteric absurdity for his tools.

the concept of a guy burning money with expensive tobacco and a glass of whiskey feels both like it came out of voodoo but also like a political sketch from the victorian era about the excesses of the rich, so it is kind of hilarious to me.

Click to shrink...

I love Mage, yes.

 

[shadowdice]

There are other WoD books for 5e I never even heard of

they are all over 40 bucks for a pdf

the preview of the romance one leaves me incredibly disappointed as everything was dudes with other dudes despite there being a fair number of what might have been traced/ai art

Downloading the free material is counterintuitive