Pax's Alternate History Snippet repository.

ATP · Dec 5, 2022

Imperator Pax said:
The Krupp in this case is the 1873 model that entered service immediately after the Franco Prussian war. So outside of the export market got completely superseded, but interestingly though the Burmese liked them, and Kiangnan arsenal actually liscened produced copies. I've heard that Japan liscened out production of the 6cm 1873 but I've never seen proof... but this is a casae of Krupp made a lot of guns that ended up on the export market that reflected prussian doctrine of the time, but were then quickly superseded in service (kiangnan would produce these 60lb armstrongs (which was another gun that was out of date had teething problems to start with) some others of good quality. As an arsenal Kiangnan was a good artillery caster)

Doctrine was basically stuck in the early 19th century of the cannons are going to be out front unsupported or minimally supported by infantry rather than in the rear firing indirect. So yeah very obsolete by 1914 never mind 1917 . The other thing that makes it rather a wasted ammunition is that again Xian put this advance forward to see how far the enemy gets before they face meaningful resistance but the royalist forces are already politically collapsing and are about to lose Peking anyway.

I read,that in 1914 russians were best in indirect fire - but so what,when they run out of ammo after few months.....

Imperator Pax · Dec 10, 2022

July 1917
Reports were filtering in... from the Legation, from the papers, from various other businesses, from other papers, from missionaries, from telegraphs. Information. Tsao Kun's 3rd Division had been known to be understrength... and in January that hadn't been a concern... Zhang Xun's wu wei corp being twenty thousand men had been purely academic. What had really mattered was that the Beiyang Divisions were in fact divisions. They had existed as more than simply schemes to steal money from the federal government. That as units they could fight, and were modern implements of war and state.

Percy looked over Zhengzhou's plaza for what sort of was a parade now that the fighting was officially done, and the city was peaceful again. The very tired englishman was conspicuously avoiding looking at the very Manchu dragon banner streaming from the city's flag pole, which was itself a somewhat recent installation a copy of British styles. "John Allen, if could I ask, how many men do you have under arms?"

"Seventy six hundred rifle men." He replied, placing what was already on the books as the portentous 1st division, at half its allotted paper strength and awaiting the men in training. The specialists would take longer to train, and longer to equip... but that was how things were. As for 3rd Reg, well the last batch of their rifles were due to complete training before the cold came. "We've pulled most of first and second regiment here."

" Yes, yes. I can see that." Percy replied shifting uncomfortably as troops from the second's first battalion moved to shift through some of the debris. The Manchu barricades thrown up had been hasty. "What do you make of all of this?" The englishman tugged at his own uniform's sleeve somewhat reflexively. "How did we even get into this morass, this foolish foolish thing."

He shook his head, "Li asked for Qirui's resignation," and Li didn't have any troops of his own... not really, that and the capital guards might well have listened to Duan instead, "Then the circulars went out..." He trailed off and that was where they got into the suspect matter. Zhang was the chairman of the Beiyang Association, and there had been no reason to doubt his offer to mediate no reason to assume it being a ploy...

His bringing five thousand, a fraction, of his Wu Wei corp hadn't struck... really anyone as particularly strange, especially on the notion that Li had wanted reassurance of the capital's safety. The President of the Republic had invited Zhang to bring the troops for the capital.

If anything had been going to be suspected to happen Allen would have honestly expected that Zhang would have arrested the parliament and Li, and not sent them all packing from the city. It wasn't as if Zhang's association with the Royalist party weren't known, he still wore his qeue for god's sake... so his support for a restoration of the old dynasty had been a shock... but ultimately that at least was in character.

"What now?"

"I suppose that depends on what the Beiyang clique, and the" 1913 elected, "Parliament work out from all of this." He shook his head, "I suppose your next step is what, back to trying to swing China into the war."

Percy's lips pursed into a thin line. "Yes, that is about the scope of it."

"John Allen, pardon me, but I only count Three Companies." Of 'Wolf Hunters' from 1st Regiment on the deck.

He grunted, clearing his throat. "That's right."

Percy's confusion didn't abate, "It should be four shouldn't it?"

"No, well, battalions are attached with an artillery battery. We opted when we moved to divisional structure from brigade to to organize battalions as fighting units on that three to one ratio." Then, there was First Battalion presently having even gone so far as to replace a Rifle Squad in each platoon with a lieutenant commanding a four machine gun armed squad. He decided not to mention that as what he said set in, and he exclaimed:

"Good god, I wondered why I had heard so much cannon."

Percy was clearly trying to do math in his head, but it was probably the lack of sleep catching up with him, surely the Englishman wasn't just being dramatic for the sake of it, but it was hard to tell sometimes... Percy had been different after coming back from Europe. "The Division at allocated strength should be about fifteen thousand men." He stated, and most of two regiments present there were nearly seventy pieces of artillery present at this gathering, but he didn't voice that, or that previously battalion level heavy machine guns like the vickers and Maxims had been pushed down to the control of the Company level HQ.

That probably wasn't sustainable not if they were going to build second and third out. The shock factor of so much firepower had paid off, but only being on a rail line had provided them with the ammunition to support the voracious appetites of the red legs' guns. There was no denying Abel Company's lewis guns had been a shock too, but the ammunition they needed was difficult to provide with twenty in the company. Baker, and Charlie hadn't been much easier with their Madsens and in the latter case Potato Diggers.

... and of course there was the fact the Gendarmes in theory fighting as light infantry had been ensconced at their depot, and the hardy brick structures and their reinforced 'factory' in the old term had may as well have been a fort. At least it hadn't been the alamo.

"I need to go, but you are coming to Peking?"

He confirmed, and Percy agained excused himself and allowing him to turn to Shang. "What's the weakness of what we've done?"

"We lack infantry, a strength in rifles to sustain an attack in pitched battle." The Colonel replied with a nod. "We also risk expending ammunition obscenely swiftly."

That was right. That was exactly it. "Indeed Colonel." He raised the glass, "Its important we recognize our own weaknesses even if the enemy doesn't." Because even if the enemy didn't know it they could still benefit from it."

He paused to return the gesture, "Do you really think those silver dollars, do you really think that they came from the Germans."

There had been rumors before, there had been reports... he wondered if the state department had told Percy's superiors about it. If that was the root or if the British had made the accusation independent, and then the question about Qirui's accusation, "I don't know. I don't think we'll ever know for sure."

--
Whatever the truth was, it didn't matter. Not to State, not to the foreign service office, not to the papers... any of the papers. By Jingo it was one more fact... and frankly that was fine. Let Reinsch argue rhetoric about rights of neutral nations that he liked the simple truth was they'd picked side by selling guns and for that matter other supplies to English, and then through them the entente's lot.

The train car continued to roll north pulled by an engine built locally driven by locally dug coal. There was everything here that needed to be so far as resources out of the ground to sustain an industrial society.

... but Industrial -ism had emerged out of the english speaking world. By the time England had exported industrialism to belgium a scottsman was already playing with the forbearer to primers, Shrapnel's shells had born his name had already been adopted been busy scything frenchmen down... and the States had been dreaming already of machined interchangeable parts. Industrialism was already underway in the Isles, and in America.

It came down to money though, wasn't that how it always was? British pounds and American dollars, and it was those tallies of reserves they were looking at. "The fultons did right good."

"Yeah," He grunted, but... They weren't available due to demand state side, "At fourteen miles to the gallon they're useful for moving infantry around. Two tons of truck is uesful, but those are the last of them we can expect to buy until the war ends."

"I was just saying they did good." They weren't the only things that had proven themselves. The Model T was cheaper than the Model A truck... but they both had acquitted well, if not perfectly adding armor put pressure on the front leaf springs, and Ford had never intended for a protected casemate to be put up top to be sure. The Pavesi, of any of the prime movers had arguably done the best, due to its speed overland while under load... but Italy with the Entente and thus at war they were likewise out of the market until the war ended.

There was a ruffling of paper, and Allen looked over his own thick sheets, "Am I not going to like that?"

"Just saying that we need an alternative." Waite replied, but that was a dead letter. There simply wasn't any where to import from and truck production could be covered long term once the deal with Ford executed and gave them a base to work from. That deal was basically agreed to.

There was a knock on the compartment door, "Enter." He called.

The major saluted, "We're almost to the station, sir."

"Thank you major." It was perfunctory. It was by the book. The truth was they had already known that. Peking hadn't been particularly far away anyway. Tietsin had only been twenty odd miles of rail line from the capital. That it had taken a week to get from there to the capital was a demonstration that ... probably that no one had really known what to do.

By the 12th, the previous morning the royalists had already been surrendering positions inside the capital, and things were more or less done... completely anticlimactic. There had been no assault, no serious exchange of fire, just sporadic infantry contacts, and Qirui showing off by having the air school make passes and drop dynamite from the planes a few times. Peking was less modern than Tokyo.. was less modern than a lot of cities, but it wasn't wholly confined to the past. That was visible on the streets beyond just hte handful of cars.

There were people still in traditional dress, lots of people, but the further in they went the more, particularly, younger men in western clothes and with western style short hair cuts, and without any obvious religious affiliation. No obvious crosses, or bibles, but instead attache cases and newspapers, or cigarettes. Men walked, talked, and lived a modern existence surrounded by the streets and shops that had been carved out centuries before with city walls still visible in the distance that dated back to the medieval era.

It wouldn't be hard to imagine what the newspapers had to say about things, no doubt decrying the royalist attempt as the last reactionary gasp of feudalism or something along those lines. It was equally hard though to really take any claims that this was a republican victory when it was Beiyang troops from among others Zhili's native 3rd division sitting on the railway between Tietsin and Peking still. The Navy clique could talk all they wanted to reporters down south, but they hadn't been involved.

... no if there was any clique that needed to be really considered it was the now obvious internal divisions inside the Beiyang army. The communications bank dealing with Nishihara, the two serving as intermediaries, came to mind. Then there was Feng who was already making circulars around clearly attempting to figure who stood where, especially in relation to his home province... and then there was a question of Manchuria now that Zhang Xun had said he was retiring from 'politics' whatever that was supposed to mean.

There weren't going to be any repercussions against Zhang, that much was already clear. The southerners who'd been able to sit the conflict out were talking about it, but no one else was. No one who was actually up here, who actually had the resources to do anything was talking about it. The only people talking about how there should be consequences were the people who didn't have any power to begin with.

There was a good reason for that reluctance, and for a preference among the Beiyang factions for a negotiated internal settlement. Zhang Xun was backing down, but he had also only brought a quarter of his WuWei corp to Peking... if a push came to shove he or a nominal successor would have a good rallying cry or excuse to put a lot more resistance into potentially upending the status quo or rejecting a harsh peace... that would have cost everyone else a lot of resources when the treasuries of Peking, Anwei, and the others were probably scarce enough as it was.

... and of course there were other lessons. Though most of what they had heard was second hand, filtering word of mouth, even through the telephone or newspapers, it seemed to validate their own observations... that in a stand up fight the quality of the old qing traditional style territorial defense units weren't really worth much even if they were willing to fight. While round nose, even round nose blackpowder could still be used on the battlefield of today, blackpowder single shot metallic cartridges simply could not compete effectively against modern repeating rifles, and that was even when they were both confined to a stand up infantry engagement. The sorts of engagements that were no longer the deciding factor on battlefields. Thus, even territorial battalions who had 88s or Type 30s were at a distinct disadvantage when their artillery were large from that same period of 'modernization' undertaken by the Guangxu emperor's hundred days reforms.

The train moved passed a plaza where the zouave drill of one Beiyang brigade was ongoing. The 6th Brigade had come under the command of Wu Peifu two years earlier.
--
Notes: And of course Wu Peifu 'the jade marshal' had a good reputation as an instructor, and disciplinarian in terms of training troops, not the only one among the warlords in the north, and we'll see more of 6th Brigade later on in the coastal conflicts that define the post war years and early twenties

ATP · Dec 10, 2022

Good chapter.Are you using infrantry guns? french arleady had 37mm,and USA used 47mm.It would be probably better.
Or,maybe not? when you get mortars with better ammo and range,it would be cheaper to just made 60,81,120 and 160mm mortars for close support.

Imperator Pax · Dec 11, 2022

ATP said:
Good chapter.Are you using infrantry guns? french arleady had 37mm,and USA used 47mm.It would be probably better.
Or,maybe not? when you get mortars with better ammo and range,it would be cheaper to just made 60,81,120 and 160mm mortars for close support.

Yeah the latter was my thinking with mortars replacing close support guns at lower echelons, and those will predominantly be 81 and 120mm per current draft.

The US used a 75mm British Vickers infantry gun in the Phillipines which they bought in surprisingly large numbers (for the period, and for US procurement), and then went to the French 37, then gave it a longer barrel becoming the 1917, then used a 57mm (a copy of the British six pounders as the M1) and then would eventually Ordinance would in 1940 many years later debut the 37mm M3. I cna't recall what the 47mm was, I know the French and Japanese both had those in the thirties as well.

ATP · Dec 11, 2022

Imperator Pax said:
Yeah the latter was my thinking with mortars replacing close support guns at lower echelons, and those will predominantly be 81 and 120mm per current draft.

The US used a 75mm British Vickers infantry gun in the Phillipines which they bought in surprisingly large numbers (for the period, and for US procurement), and then went to the French 37, then gave it a longer barrel becoming the 1917, then used a 57mm (a copy of the British six pounders as the M1) and then would eventually Ordinance would in 1940 many years later debut the 37mm M3. I cna't recall what the 47mm was, I know the French and Japanese both had those in the thirties as well.

i remember some story from Discovery,about dude who buyed 47mm infrantry gun,and must made ammo for it.
About 120mm mortars - french initially made it as artillery piece on wheels,which of course was mistake.But,160mm mortars/czech and soviet/ were always artillery pieces - and it was right.Just like soviet 240mm - but,i do not think that your China need it - it was basically bunket buster,and your enemies would not have bunkers strong enough to need it.

Imperator Pax · Dec 15, 2022

Q&A
Part 1: The Economics

The following is derived questes asked by unique. So before I begin summarizing that there are a couple of things probably the largest single weakness to Autumn of Empires as a broadline timeline is that the outline was originally written within the framework of an AH format timeline of events on certain days with event dates frequently between them. So Unique has asked questions, i've done my best to address them, and also how this story has changed over time. So first and foremost I work with a lot of primary sources, as well my library at the house has a signficant amount of secondary sources (or primary sources in the case of ethnographic accounts from the period). And by preference if I include something at political or economic level it generally going to be based off something that was done in the period.

So first and foremost, WW1 represents a massive political and economic shift in history. It is a very massive pivot point, in no small part because it represents a significant political change in europe and in particular the massive centralization and growth of national governments and their authorities. Now this was not created by the war, it was accelerated by the war. The British Empire had been attempting to apply greater scrutiny and oversight to its subjects (including large trading houses) for almost a century by this point and this is part of the political discourse in Europe about political organization and economics, which has begun industrializing post-Napoleon. The result of this is a pattern of compromises (made possible with increasing enfranchisment in the British political system, at least within the Isles proper) that ultimately favor stability over anything else. This leads to the gradual nationalization of the various monopolistic trade companies (India, and South Africa, come to mind though they're very different in how those proceeded even though it can boiled down to money.) So the basic summary of the 19th century is that European companies continued to operate private security, warships, armies in the field until world war 1 ended that practice or coopted it to control native populations in the colonies. In the AMericas private armies ranged from almost feudal in hierachy to very similar to their colonial european counter parts.

This was legal often in a dejure arrangement over monopolies, or simply as an accepted defacto arrangement of 'natural rights'. This was changing in opinion over the 19th century within elite social circles, but it takes quite a while for it go away... and thats in governments with strong central systems and an interest in abrogating that process at least at home. [colonies are a different story entirely, and that shapes some of what exists in the timeline].

--
So that answers the question of how is this legal? Because at the time while there were rules, they were very different than the ones we had today. It used to be that governments preferred operating arsenals but didn't so much mind companies abroad actually fielding thousands of soldiers, and now for the most part governments don't build their own cannons any more artillery is built by private corporations, but for the most part those companies don't have expeditionary forces.

In 1910 a large railway company could have everything from police powers and mail delivery responsibility (and in some cases the ability to collect taxes) as well owning armored cars machine guns, and artillery for safety reasons. Of course, the thinking within the US and UK was that a railway company isn't going to overgrow the government (and often were represented in government at all levels). As for abroad? The assumption was that these companies were (and again representation in government) part of grander national ambitions. There were certainly people who even in the 1800s disagreed with this, but really its the expense of armies, especially as European armies at home grow significantly larger than their previous iterations that is the death knell of this practice.

Speaking of other corporate interests. A lot of corporations (and some cases this continued after ww2) who were involved in complex machinery and heavy industry got involved in defense articles. Krupp was not originally a gun manufacturers but as it happens steel (or cast iron originally) gives insight into the industrial process that lets you expanded into a side business that makes a lot of money. (and Krupp got its hand swatted a couple times, so did Armstrong and Vickers)The result is that these corporations in the 19th century (and on) would liscence out patents send experts out to help set up local production like pretty much any other piece of heavy industry. Krupp sent experts to Romania (which they might have regretted later), Thailand, Japan, etc, Armstrong sent engineers to China, and Japan among others. Private Arsenals and the manufacture of artillery were not all the unusual (they're really more now the norm, just reflecting changes in what is normal), nowadays your home government cares what defense articles you sale to foreigners on intellectual property rights than anything else.

Which brings me to licensing and costs. When pming Unique this came up, on costs, and this is really the era of the gold standard and also that costs during this period were very different than they were today. That getsinto inflation. Now I do need to go back and boule check my figures, and primary sources but the technical data packages before world war 1 for artillery really weren't that expensive, and thats again a factor how things were before world war versus after. For example there is the ford deal coming up (which is based on both Ford's deal with the USSR, as well as attempts by ford to set up domestic production in other countries and the costs) which in millions of dollars total over a decade, and thats mostly a cost in tooling, but as insane as it might sound before the Model T a piece of artillery could very be cheaper than an automobile (for reference a modern piece of artillery a field gun is often over half a million dollars) and governments still complained that artillery were expensive and that they needed to be made cheaper using lower carbon steels, and less labor.

ATP · Dec 15, 2022

Imperator Pax said:
Q&A
Part 1: The Economics
The following is derived questes asked by unique. So before I begin summarizing that there are a couple of things probably the largest single weakness to Autumn of Empires as a broadline timeline is that the outline was originally written within the framework of an AH format timeline of events on certain days with event dates frequently between them. So Unique has asked questions, i've done my best to address them, and also how this story has changed over time. So first and foremost I work with a lot of primary sources, as well my library at the house has a signficant amount of secondary sources (or primary sources in the case of ethnographic accounts from the period). And by preference if I include something at political or economic level it generally going to be based off something that was done in the period.

So first and foremost, WW1 represents a massive political and economic shift in history. It is a very massive pivot point, in no small part because it represents a significant political change in europe and in particular the massive centralization and growth of national governments and their authorities. Now this was not created by the war, it was accelerated by the war. The British Empire had been attempting to apply greater scrutiny and oversight to its subjects (including large trading houses) for almost a century by this point and this is part of the political discourse in Europe about political organization and economics, which has begun industrializing post-Napoleon. The result of this is a pattern of compromises (made possible with increasing enfranchisment in the British political system, at least within the Isles proper) that ultimately favor stability over anything else. This leads to the gradual nationalization of the various monopolistic trade companies (India, and South Africa, come to mind though they're very different in how those proceeded even though it can boiled down to money.) So the basic summary of the 19th century is that European companies continued to operate private security, warships, armies in the field until world war 1 ended that practice or coopted it to control native populations in the colonies. In the AMericas private armies ranged from almost feudal in hierachy to very similar to their colonial european counter parts.

This was legal often in a dejure arrangement over monopolies, or simply as an accepted defacto arrangement of 'natural rights'. This was changing in opinion over the 19th century within elite social circles, but it takes quite a while for it go away... and thats in governments with strong central systems and an interest in abrogating that process at least at home. [colonies are a different story entirely, and that shapes some of what exists in the timeline].

--
So that answers the question of how is this legal? Because at the time while there were rules, they were very different than the ones we had today. It used to be that governments preferred operating arsenals but didn't so much mind companies abroad actually fielding thousands of soldiers, and now for the most part governments don't build their own cannons any more artillery is built by private corporations, but for the most part those companies don't have expeditionary forces.

In 1910 a large railway company could have everything from police powers and mail delivery responsibility (and in some cases the ability to collect taxes) as well owning armored cars machine guns, and artillery for safety reasons. Of course, the thinking within the US and UK was that a railway company isn't going to overgrow the government (and often were represented in government at all levels). As for abroad? The assumption was that these companies were (and again representation in government) part of grander national ambitions. There were certainly people who even in the 1800s disagreed with this, but really its the expense of armies, especially as European armies at home grow significantly larger than their previous iterations that is the death knell of this practice.

Speaking of other corporate interests. A lot of corporations (and some cases this continued after ww2) who were involved in complex machinery and heavy industry got involved in defense articles. Krupp was not originally a gun manufacturers but as it happens steel (or cast iron originally) gives insight into the industrial process that lets you expanded into a side business that makes a lot of money. (and Krupp got its hand swatted a couple times, so did Armstrong and Vickers)The result is that these corporations in the 19th century (and on) would liscence out patents send experts out to help set up local production like pretty much any other piece of heavy industry. Krupp sent experts to Romania (which they might have regretted later), Thailand, Japan, etc, Armstrong sent engineers to China, and Japan among others. Private Arsenals and the manufacture of artillery were not all the unusual (they're really more now the norm, just reflecting changes in what is normal), nowadays your home government cares what defense articles you sale to foreigners on intellectual property rights than anything else.

Which brings me to licensing and costs. When pming Unique this came up, on costs, and this is really the era of the gold standard and also that costs during this period were very different than they were today. That getsinto inflation. Now I do need to go back and boule check my figures, and primary sources but the technical data packages before world war 1 for artillery really weren't that expensive, and thats again a factor how things were before world war versus after. For example there is the ford deal coming up (which is based on both Ford's deal with the USSR, as well as attempts by ford to set up domestic production in other countries and the costs) which in millions of dollars total over a decade, and thats mostly a cost in tooling, but as insane as it might sound before the Model T a piece of artillery could very be cheaper than an automobile (for reference a modern piece of artillery a field gun is often over half a million dollars) and governments still complained that artillery were expensive and that they needed to be made cheaper using lower carbon steels, and less labor.

They could made guns cheaper without worst steel - for example germans manage to partially unite production of 77mm guns and 105mm howitzers/they made the same chasis for both/
And,you could always made version with less parts - just like polish engineers for England during WW2 made Polsten 20mm AA gun which was Oeriklion with less parts.
By the way,since construction is from 1914 and used by germans,your China could steal design and made their own cheaper version after WW1.

About sources - i read memories of polish gentry,Hipolit Korwin-Milewski/70 lat wspomnień/ - unfortunatelly there is no english version.
He was rich gentry who was part of Duma after 1905,and,thanks to knowing important russians,knew few things.
More important would be:

1.1905 war started becouse of private interest of few rich russians - and also,becouse nobody belived that some yellow dudes could fight white people.Russian generals excepted easy victory.

2.In 1914 russians fought seriously only A-H,germans was no real enemy for part of commanders,becouse they were germans,too.That is why Samsonow army died in Prussia - dude who was commander of other was german.
Who later in 1914 let 14 german dyvisions slip from encirclent.Nothing happened to him,becouse part of generals were germans,and tsar waifu supported them.

3.He meet in 1918 aristocrats who run from A-H,and since they were pre-war friends,they said to him why WW1 happened in 1914-
basically,in 1908 King of England meet A-H emperor and tried to made him change sides,claiming that after 1916 russian army would be unstoppable.A-H said it to germans,they belived,and in 1914 both countries seek to start war before it would be too late.

Hipolit Korwin-Milewski do not belived in it.

4.Soviet troops were shit,and most polish units in 1920 was not much better - it was less battles,and more that one side started running and was followed till enemy started running.
He was polish patriot - but,when he wrote about 1920 war,it was not something glorious.At least,not for all polish units.

5.Lithuanian and Belarusian nations do not existed before 1914 - there was 500 lithuanians trained by germans in 1914,and locals who speak various dialects of lithuanian,to the point where they speak polish among themselves to undarstandt what they were talking.
Even worst with belarussia - when germans decided to create Belarus in 1918,locals speaking belarussian dialects asked what it is that Belarus.

Imperator Pax · Dec 17, 2022

July 1917
For a city that had been in 'hostile hands' for two weeks you would have hardly guessed it. Peking looked fine. Certainly the city guardsmen looked exactly the same as they had when he'd been here a month earlier... but then he doubted they had cared who was in charge Qirui or Xun... that didn't seem to worry Qirui any.

His cajoling to bringing along fifty thousand to Zhang's original five had also let him largely muscle past the royalists without any significant damage to eastern Zhili. Zhu Zhibao had been sacked, naturally, but probably for at least as much reason as having lost confidence from significant numbers of troops being lost as having backed the wrong side. Certainly Zhu's decision to go running to the legation quarter for safety had signaled he wasn't confident in the safety of his position before Qirui had officially resumed control of the capital and the office of prime minister.

Offices were another matter up for discussion. There was a lot of chatter in the legation quarter as it was, but gossip was really the only way you'd have known that Peking had been in 'hostile hands' this part of the city looked the same as it always did.

"Was there much excitement here top?" He asked the army's senior non com who'd been in Sulu a lifetime earlier.

"Not at all, sir." Elaborating that the office had seen no trouble, and that like the fifteenth division the China marines hadn't hadn't had any trouble either. "Legation did ask for more men from the Philippines," and had almost certainly been told no, but even if it had been approved it didn't matter, "but Royalists, or Republicans it made no difference. We had it pretty easy"

Allen nodded. That coincided with what he'd been told, "What's that then," He asked raising his glass to the metal case.

"I had thought it would be of interest,"

He knew that tone, "even though Ordinance seems to disagree?"

"Verily so, sir." The gunnery sergeant replied, and Allen's interest piqued. He'd been curious before, the invitation ahead of the soiree the diplomatic community had planned but well... Crozier and his staff really had been making asses of themselves, and he wondered what idea they'd deemed surplus to requirements.

He was a little disappointed as the M1903/6 Springfield came out, but glanced at it more closely as upon taking it his fingers sank into the bottom of the receiver just ahead of the trigger guard.
"What's that then?" He took the metal box, and studied it. The sergeant took it back, picked up an M1903, and then put it on.

"Twenty round magazine." It was charged using the same 5 round stripper clips of 30-06 Government as the original box magazine.

"When did this go out?"

"Ordinance has been tinkering with them for a few years. Think the leathernecks had the idea first, but like most of their queer ideas it never went anywhere,"

He had heard while in the Philippines of a Marine rifle with 10 rounds in the magazine, but he had never seen the butcher's issue. He had assumed that if there was any truth to it it was just Corp gunsmith fooling around with supervision. If anyone in the Army had tried that the tighter wound Ordinance officers would have wanted the offender drawn and quartered for the temerity. "I take it not many of these, top?"

"Shucks, sir. Lucky just to have the one." He responded. "They only gave me this rifle and two magazines." The senior non com showed him where the magazines had the serial number of the rifle and a -2 added for the second magazine.

Twenty rounds of thirty ought six certainly changed the weight of the rifle, but not so much the balance. It made a big difference in the height of the gun too, which was the bigger issue. It was something though. The advantage though seemed evident, especially given the letters from Winchester about modifications to the Model 1907 being made for the war. Of course you couldn't turn a bolt action into a small machine gun.

It was a pity Remington had shown no sign of adopting a detachable magazine into the Model 8. Not that the magazine for the 08 was removable, without taking the screws out. It was a change he would have to have Griswold look at, for the Gewehrs and the Model 8s... maybe if it worked out for other guns.

He grunted loosely, "Why just this one?" He asked. Allen knew this wasn't revolutionary... the truth was they'd been talking about magazines based off of the Lee patents for years on now, "What prompted it?"

"Can't rightly say. Just that they sent them out to the division." The 15th, "And they wanted to know how they fared in the field."

"And?"

"And they want them back, I'll admit to being worried that the Ordinance men intend to do nothing with them." The truth was that magazines would end up going to the signals, or at least that Signals, and the branch's aircrews would be issued special cut down guns... so the sergeants concerns were somewhat overwrought.
--
Griswold hadn't bothered to come to Peking for the soiree of course, though a number of the other staff had. It would have been Sunday best occasion, but tailors kept all of their clothes fitted so that meant less than it would have back home. The international community was in turned mingled with a mix of old, and new. As with before there were traditional costumes, blended with newer Chinese fashions, and western clothes.
The Japanese delegation was conspicuous though, especially with Germany, and Austro-Hungary forced to the periphery. Then again, the Swiss, and Swedes were also on the ascent he was going to need to make rounds with them and the Danes given the moves their people were making against the Belgian concession. They, and the Japanese weren't the only ones of course.

"Minister Hayashi seems rather put off by your appearance Mister Forrest," The portly British man remarked waddling up to the second floor banisters where he had relocated to.

No surprise, "There is some lingering business left over from our mutual time in Joseon." He replied, but decided not to elaborate any further on the topic. "I suppose its not surprise that he'd end up coming into China." The formerly German controlled concession seemed to be his area of interest, not Northern China, at least not right now, which was interesting. Not good interesting, just interesting... but on the other hand Liu was probably right that he was worried about the recent dust ups too near Tsingtao.

"Ah, bit unpleasantness from all that isn't surprising I wouldn't think." The Englishman agreed, "And indeed I would say China is quite busy. I suppose you've heard of course of the nastiness in Russia?"

"I've heard the stories."

The man bobbed his head, "Quite. I dare say they're probably worse than what can be printed in the papers. Frightful rabble." Allen considered what he had heard. Yeah, to the Brits mass labor strikes was probably not what the blue bloods wanted to hear peasants doing. "Of course the Japanese are very interested in Manchuria. So any problems the Russians are having, well,"

It wasn't just Manchuria though that the Russians had concessions. He doubted Hankow was much on the man's mind, but there was a Russian concession in Tietsin. "A Japanese colonel I knew in Korea mentioned to me that World War 1 was divine aid for Japan."

"Ah, yes, I believe that was a quote from the Minister Inoue Kaoru, god rest his soul." The Brit replied with recognizable excitement. "Of course there is contending with the Russians are on the same side of course, even with this unpleasantness. Of course, they have loaned the Tsar's government quite a tidy sum, so that could be their leverage you know." He seemed less pleased at the notion. "So I suppose that makes you and Minister Hayashi" There was a pause, "business rivals, of sorts at least?"

Allen shrugged. "He has friends that I compete with," It was odd to think of it like that, "Japan needs raw materials. Manchuria, Central China," He thought of the 21 Demands made to the now deceased Yuan Shikai, "and us between the two. At the same time, Hayashi's been keeping his focus on Shangdong, and its rails. The Japanese are however funding more railways in Manchuria too. I suspect that they'll want to meet in the middle."

"They'd need support from the Chinese government for that. The minister of transportation at least. Well its doubtful he'd be very hard to convince."

No it really wouldn't. Cao Kun was always happy any time he heard about railroad investment that he didn't have to pay for. It was ironic, since the Dujun of Zhili liked to lavish money around in order to get things done. It was something. "What will the Russians do?" What could the Russians do.

The British man chewed his lower lip. "I," He started, but was interrupted as Percy arrived and for a minute glowered at the heavier set man.

"John Allen, hello there, so very glad you could come. I do hope Johnathan here is not being a bother." The portly man bristled slightly at the dismissive tone, and then shrank back down. "Have you spoken with Minister Reinsch today?"

"We talked a little politics in the state room," He replied leaning back on the bannister, and sipped reminded of how Reinsch had clambered up on his moral soap box, particularly about the recent trouble, and the issue of Duan Qirui's finances and the money had surely would have needed to fix things. He wasn't happy with how the Chinese President and Prime Minister's situation had resolved itself, and especially not with how the subsequent devolution to fighting.

"Yes I was told that the Premier was an unfortunate who only had one division he could truly count on, and the rest was little more than bloody minded feudalism." Percy agreed... "and well speaking of feudal powers, I am afraid the situation in Russia has gotten quite a bit worse of late, while things here have been well lively as they have been of late."

"Johnathan," He turned looking at the round man, "I assume you're here about this trans siberian business then, and a link to Tashkent or some other part of the caspian line?"

"The details, yes sir, quite right." Johnathan Boyle extended his hand, "It is quite nice to make your acquaintance." They shook.

Even though he'd been a tad disappointed by the magazine that would eventually become the basis of the air service rifle, this meeting would prove if not that sort of interesting the finalization of a more lucrative sort.
--
Notes: this is 1917 the US Army does still have a Gunnery Sergeant rank, and a Technical Sergeant rank, and a number of other sergeant ranks that have since been replaced, retired, or otherwise done away with.

[Amusingly the US Navy also in certain specialties had sergeants which of course was discontinued because by this point the navy had been moving increasingly from actually commissioning armed shore parties as it had done in the 19th century, even into ww2 you will occasionally hear Naval enlisted be referred to as sergeants, but in the USN there are not generally sergeants of course in this period the marine corp becomes much larger and continues to grow becoming increasingly expeditionary, but its funny to read this in period sources talking about Sergeants in the Navy in the 19th century, usually in the context of shore parties]
I will be posting the second half of my summary of QA with Unique probably in the next couple days dealing with personnel

Unique · Dec 17, 2022

How large is his army again? And what is the service rifle for his men? I read Mauser 98s, Remingtons and pattern 1914 Enfield rifles. So a hodgepodge of rifles?

ATP · Dec 17, 2022

Imperator Pax said:
July 1917
For a city that had been in 'hostile hands' for two weeks you would have hardly guessed it. Peking looked fine. Certainly the city guardsmen looked exactly the same as they had when he'd been here a month earlier... but then he doubted they had cared who was in charge Qirui or Xun... that didn't seem to worry Qirui any.

His cajoling to bringing along fifty thousand to Zhang's original five had also let him largely muscle past the royalists without any significant damage to eastern Zhili. Zhu Zhibao had been sacked, naturally, but probably for at least as much reason as having lost confidence from significant numbers of troops being lost as having backed the wrong side. Certainly Zhu's decision to go running to the legation quarter for safety had signaled he wasn't confident in the safety of his position before Qirui had officially resumed control of the capital and the office of prime minister.

Offices were another matter up for discussion. There was a lot of chatter in the legation quarter as it was, but gossip was really the only way you'd have known that Peking had been in 'hostile hands' this part of the city looked the same as it always did.

"Was there much excitement here top?" He asked the army's senior non com who'd been in Sulu a lifetime earlier.

"Not at all, sir." Elaborating that the office had seen no trouble, and that like the fifteenth division the China marines hadn't hadn't had any trouble either. "Legation did ask for more men from the Philippines," and had almost certainly been told no, but even if it had been approved it didn't matter, "but Royalists, or Republicans it made no difference. We had it pretty easy"

Allen nodded. That coincided with what he'd been told, "What's that then," He asked raising his glass to the metal case.

"I had thought it would be of interest,"

He knew that tone, "even though Ordinance seems to disagree?"

"Verily so, sir." The gunnery sergeant replied, and Allen's interest piqued. He'd been curious before, the invitation ahead of the soiree the diplomatic community had planned but well... Crozier and his staff really had been making asses of themselves, and he wondered what idea they'd deemed surplus to requirements.

He was a little disappointed as the M1903/6 Springfield came out, but glanced at it more closely as upon taking it his fingers sank into the bottom of the receiver just ahead of the trigger guard.
"What's that then?" He took the metal box, and studied it. The sergeant took it back, picked up an M1903, and then put it on.

"Twenty round magazine." It was charged using the same 5 round stripper clips of 30-06 Government as the original box magazine.

"When did this go out?"

"Ordinance has been tinkering with them for a few years. Think the leathernecks had the idea first, but like most of their queer ideas it never went anywhere,"

He had heard while in the Philippines of a Marine rifle with 10 rounds in the magazine, but he had never seen the butcher's issue. He had assumed that if there was any truth to it it was just Corp gunsmith fooling around with supervision. If anyone in the Army had tried that the tighter wound Ordinance officers would have wanted the offender drawn and quartered for the temerity. "I take it not many of these, top?"

"Shucks, sir. Lucky just to have the one." He responded. "They only gave me this rifle and two magazines." The senior non com showed him where the magazines had the serial number of the rifle and a -2 added for the second magazine.

Twenty rounds of thirty ought six certainly changed the weight of the rifle, but not so much the balance. It made a big difference in the height of the gun too, which was the bigger issue. It was something though. The advantage though seemed evident, especially given the letters from Winchester about modifications to the Model 1907 being made for the war. Of course you couldn't turn a bolt action into a small machine gun.

It was a pity Remington had shown no sign of adopting a detachable magazine into the Model 8. Not that the magazine for the 08 was removable, without taking the screws out. It was a change he would have to have Griswold look at, for the Gewehrs and the Model 8s... maybe if it worked out for other guns.

He grunted loosely, "Why just this one?" He asked. Allen knew this wasn't revolutionary... the truth was they'd been talking about magazines based off of the Lee patents for years on now, "What prompted it?"

"Can't rightly say. Just that they sent them out to the division." The 15th, "And they wanted to know how they fared in the field."

"And?"

"And they want them back, I'll admit to being worried that the Ordinance men intend to do nothing with them." The truth was that magazines would end up going to the signals, or at least that Signals, and the branch's aircrews would be issued special cut down guns... so the sergeants concerns were somewhat overwrought.
--
Griswold hadn't bothered to come to Peking for the soiree of course, though a number of the other staff had. It would have been Sunday best occasion, but tailors kept all of their clothes fitted so that meant less than it would have back home. The international community was in turned mingled with a mix of old, and new. As with before there were traditional costumes, blended with newer Chinese fashions, and western clothes.
The Japanese delegation was conspicuous though, especially with Germany, and Austro-Hungary forced to the periphery. Then again, the Swiss, and Swedes were also on the ascent he was going to need to make rounds with them and the Danes given the moves their people were making against the Belgian concession. They, and the Japanese weren't the only ones of course.

"Minister Hayashi seems rather put off by your appearance Mister Forrest," The portly British man remarked waddling up to the second floor banisters where he had relocated to.

No surprise, "There is some lingering business left over from our mutual time in Joseon." He replied, but decided not to elaborate any further on the topic. "I suppose its not surprise that he'd end up coming into China." The formerly German controlled concession seemed to be his area of interest, not Northern China, at least not right now, which was interesting. Not good interesting, just interesting... but on the other hand Liu was probably right that he was worried about the recent dust ups too near Tsingtao.

"Ah, bit unpleasantness from all that isn't surprising I wouldn't think." The Englishman agreed, "And indeed I would say China is quite busy. I suppose you've heard of course of the nastiness in Russia?"

"I've heard the stories."

The man bobbed his head, "Quite. I dare say they're probably worse than what can be printed in the papers. Frightful rabble." Allen considered what he had heard. Yeah, to the Brits mass labor strikes was probably not what the blue bloods wanted to hear peasants doing. "Of course the Japanese are very interested in Manchuria. So any problems the Russians are having, well,"

It wasn't just Manchuria though that the Russians had concessions. He doubted Hankow was much on the man's mind, but there was a Russian concession in Tietsin. "A Japanese colonel I knew in Korea mentioned to me that World War 1 was divine aid for Japan."

"Ah, yes, I believe that was a quote from the Minister Inoue Kaoru, god rest his soul." The Brit replied with recognizable excitement. "Of course there is contending with the Russians are on the same side of course, even with this unpleasantness. Of course, they have loaned the Tsar's government quite a tidy sum, so that could be their leverage you know." He seemed less pleased at the notion. "So I suppose that makes you and Minister Hayashi" There was a pause, "business rivals, of sorts at least?"

Allen shrugged. "He has friends that I compete with," It was odd to think of it like that, "Japan needs raw materials. Manchuria, Central China," He thought of the 21 Demands made to the now deceased Yuan Shikai, "and us between the two. At the same time, Hayashi's been keeping his focus on Shangdong, and its rails. The Japanese are however funding more railways in Manchuria too. I suspect that they'll want to meet in the middle."

"They'd need support from the Chinese government for that. The minister of transportation at least. Well its doubtful he'd be very hard to convince."

No it really wouldn't. Cao Kun was always happy any time he heard about railroad investment that he didn't have to pay for. It was ironic, since the Dujun of Zhili liked to lavish money around in order to get things done. It was something. "What will the Russians do?" What could the Russians do.

The British man chewed his lower lip. "I," He started, but was interrupted as Percy arrived and for a minute glowered at the heavier set man.

"John Allen, hello there, so very glad you could come. I do hope Johnathan here is not being a bother." The portly man bristled slightly at the dismissive tone, and then shrank back down. "Have you spoken with Minister Reinsch today?"

"We talked a little politics in the state room," He replied leaning back on the bannister, and sipped reminded of how Reinsch had clambered up on his moral soap box, particularly about the recent trouble, and the issue of Duan Qirui's finances and the money had surely would have needed to fix things. He wasn't happy with how the Chinese President and Prime Minister's situation had resolved itself, and especially not with how the subsequent devolution to fighting.

"Yes I was told that the Premier was an unfortunate who only had one division he could truly count on, and the rest was little more than bloody minded feudalism." Percy agreed... "and well speaking of feudal powers, I am afraid the situation in Russia has gotten quite a bit worse of late, while things here have been well lively as they have been of late."

"Johnathan," He turned looking at the round man, "I assume you're here about this trans siberian business then, and a link to Tashkent or some other part of the caspian line?"

"The details, yes sir, quite right." Johnathan Boyle extended his hand, "It is quite nice to make your acquaintance." They shook.

Even though he'd been a tad disappointed by the magazine that would eventually become the basis of the air service rifle, this meeting would prove if not that sort of interesting the finalization of a more lucrative sort.
--
Notes: this is 1917 the US Army does still have a Gunnery Sergeant rank, and a Technical Sergeant rank, and a number of other sergeant ranks that have since been replaced, retired, or otherwise done away with.

[Amusingly the US Navy also in certain specialties had sergeants which of course was discontinued because by this point the navy had been moving increasingly from actually commissioning armed shore parties as it had done in the 19th century, even into ww2 you will occasionally hear Naval enlisted be referred to as sergeants, but in the USN there are not generally sergeants of course in this period the marine corp becomes much larger and continues to grow becoming increasingly expeditionary, but its funny to read this in period sources talking about Sergeants in the Navy in the 19th century, usually in the context of shore parties]
I will be posting the second half of my summary of QA with Unique probably in the next couple days dealing with personnel

Ten-round magazine seems more practical.And,semi automatic rifles,too.There was many prototypes in this period,they should found something warth producing.

About first russian revolution - according to what i read,it was result of tsarist goverment fuck-up.They basically:
1.stopped issuing food to workers to provoke them
2.Gathered guard troops to massacre those who would protest
3.Guard troops joined workers,becouse they were fresh conspricts,not veterans.
4.What happened to veteran guard troops? after Brusiłow offensive stalled,they sell all of them to storm german trenches without artillery supports.In one case they attacked some bridge in Napoleon style column,marching slowly.Effect - almost all died.
5.Sad thing - they had still veteran,loyal troops - calvary regiments.Which was keep out of Petersburg.

So,revolution would not happen,if tsar officials had brains.Or,maybe they really were german agents?

P.S Why Trocky win later? Kerensky let him send agents to army units,and did nothing when they talked about rebellion.He also do not agree to peace wit germans,who do not liked bolshewiks and preferred deal with somebody sane.
Again,revolution could happen only thanks to incopetence.

Imperator Pax · Dec 17, 2022

Unique said:
How large is his army again? And what is the service rifle for his men? I read Mauser 98s, Remingtons and pattern 1914 Enfield rifles. So a hodgepodge of rifles?

The Service rifle is the Gewehr 98, or what originally a Gewehr 98.

They're manufacturing Pattern 1914 rifles under contract from the Munitions board meant for the Anzac corp, and are thinking about adopting something akin to the Pattern 1914 as a replacement to the larger Gewehr [Now, during white wolf in 1913 it was very much a hodgepodge of different rifles, but still mostly mausers.]

(The Pattern 1914's lineage actually traces back to the US 1903 which in itself which traces back to the Spanish Mauser except shorter and in 3006 and that the US army adopted for US style shooting competitions. So when the British looked at replacing the SMLE and 303 enfield in the timeframe of the Russo-Japanese war they went from there started with a new cartridge, which economics of scale basically killed forcing them to stick with 303 which left them with the pattern 1913 which would then become the 1914 rifle, which the US would then modify back to 06 to make the Pattern 1917 which the US would use in WW1 largely in place of the 1903/06 Sprinfield rifle, confused yet?)

The Remington Model 8 / 1900 is purely a specialist weapon, This is not a line rifle its in the hands of select officers or specialist troops

Currently speaking in nominal paper strength

There is a rifle division, there are two artillery brigades (One of nominally Light Field Guns i.e. Krupp 3 Inch, up to 10.5cm guns, and the Heavy Brigade which is comprised of 15cm guns), there is a nominal regiment (That is to say in the british system of regiments of the period its a regiment on paper but its a single battalion with a very large headquarters) of gendarmes (which are specialist light infantry), and then there is a Corp of Engineers (Corp however basically means its a Brigade of Engineers so its a construction section (your field craft people, i.e. carpenters, loggers), your signals people (field telegraph, field telephone, Motor courier section), and the main body of engineers (these would be your bridge layers, the detachments to lay out your works, or repair railways).

In terms of what would be considered your period fighting strength, with division and the Gendarmes together there are about ten thousand infantry in the ranks by August of 1917 backed by significant numbers of artillery [This goes to most of the cadre are former US Army Field Artillery Officers or US CoE rather than being infantry officers]. What is happening is that your rifle sub units from the battalion and regimental levels are being attached to from your brigades of specialists. The Engineers are attaching to artillery and infantry units at a battalion level to form combined arms teams (again what in the US Civil War would have been called legions), and that the US traditionally used as a combination of the five branches (artillery, cavalry, engineers, infantry and quartermaster.) In Xian case the Corp of Engineers deals with Logistics of all sorts because they're the ones operating the military railcars so quartermasters section, signal sections) and Xian doesn't really do horse cavalry they have some small detachments at this point of specialized motorized infantry tooling around in armored or scout cars that have machine guns [and if you want a hodgepodge of guns, its the machine guns where all the diversity is at]

Imperator Pax · Dec 17, 2022

ATP said:
Ten-round magazine seems more practical.And,semi automatic rifles,too.There was many prototypes in this period,they should found something warth producing.

About first russian revolution - according to what i read,it was result of tsarist goverment fuck-up.They basically:
1.stopped issuing food to workers to provoke them
2.Gathered guard troops to massacre those who would protest
3.Guard troops joined workers,becouse they were fresh conspricts,not veterans.
4.What happened to veteran guard troops? after Brusiłow offensive stalled,they sell all of them to storm german trenches without artillery supports.In one case they attacked some bridge in Napoleon style column,marching slowly.Effect - almost all died.
5.Sad thing - they had still veteran,loyal troops - calvary regiments.Which was keep out of Petersburg.

So,revolution would not happen,if tsar officials had brains.Or,maybe they really were german agents?

P.S Why Trocky win later? Kerensky let him send agents to army units,and did nothing when they talked about rebellion.He also do not agree to peace wit germans,who do not liked bolshewiks and preferred deal with somebody sane.
Again,revolution could happen only thanks to incopetence.

Yeah, my understanding of the failure there was straight incompetence day in day out in terms of handling, the troops who were in the city were familiar with the city's population and were sent to confront women and old men that they had been interacting with on a daily base for months and then the local commander is shocked that these troops (because these were as you point out, were freshly conscripted levies for all intents and purposes) and they don't want to pull the trigger. Pretty much every successful historical example of quashing peasant uprisings along these lines requires you to bring in troops who are dedicated loyal veterans with good leadership or you bring someone in from the neighboring province who already doesn't like the neighboring province and has plenty of reason not to question "Hey these guys are the enemy/fifth column/whatever"

ATP · Dec 17, 2022

Imperator Pax said:
The Service rifle is the Gewehr 98, or what originally a Gewehr 98.

They're manufacturing Pattern 1914 rifles under contract from the Munitions board meant for the Anzac corp, and are thinking about adopting something akin to the Pattern 1914 as a replacement to the larger Gewehr [Now, during white wolf in 1913 it was very much a hodgepodge of different rifles, but still mostly mausers.]

(The Pattern 1914's lineage actually traces back to the US 1903 which in itself which traces back to the Spanish Mauser except shorter and in 3006 and that the US army adopted for US style shooting competitions. So when the British looked at replacing the SMLE and 303 enfield in the timeframe of the Russo-Japanese war they went from there started with a new cartridge, which economics of scale basically killed forcing them to stick with 303 which left them with the pattern 1913 which would then become the 1914 rifle, which the US would then modify back to 06 to make the Pattern 1917 which the US would use in WW1 largely in place of the 1903/06 Sprinfield rifle, confused yet?)

The Remington Model 8 / 1900 is purely a specialist weapon, This is not a line rifle its in the hands of select officers or specialist troops

Currently speaking in nominal paper strength

There is a rifle division, there are two artillery brigades (One of nominally Light Field Guns i.e. Krupp 3 Inch, up to 10.5cm guns, and the Heavy Brigade which is comprised of 15cm guns), there is a nominal regiment (That is to say in the british system of regiments of the period its a regiment on paper but its a single battalion with a very large headquarters) of gendarmes (which are specialist light infantry), and then there is a Corp of Engineers (Corp however basically means its a Brigade of Engineers so its a construction section (your field craft people, i.e. carpenters, loggers), your signals people (field telegraph, field telephone, Motor courier section), and the main body of engineers (these would be your bridge layers, the detachments to lay out your works, or repair railways).

In terms of what would be considered your period fighting strength, with division and the Gendarmes together there are about ten thousand infantry in the ranks by August of 1917 backed by significant numbers of artillery [This goes to most of the cadre are former US Army Field Artillery Officers or US CoE rather than being infantry officers]. What is happening is that your rifle sub units from the battalion and regimental levels are being attached to from your brigades of specialists. The Engineers are attaching to artillery and infantry units at a battalion level to form combined arms teams (again what in the US Civil War would have been called legions), and that the US traditionally used as a combination of the five branches (artillery, cavalry, engineers, infantry and quartermaster.) In Xian case the Corp of Engineers deals with Logistics of all sorts because they're the ones operating the military railcars so quartermasters section, signal sections) and Xian doesn't really do horse cavalry they have some small detachments at this point of specialized motorized infantry tooling around in armored or scout cars that have machine guns [and if you want a hodgepodge of guns, its the machine guns where all the diversity is at]

They lack recon planes,by 1917 they should have 1-2 dyvisions.

Imperator Pax · Dec 17, 2022

ATP said:
They lack recon planes,by 1917 they should have 1-2 dyvisions.

Yeah the plan is that by december of 1917 to stand up second division. 3rd division will follow on paper and then in the spring reaching nominal strength (again for things like specialists) by June 1918 [again theoretically that could be done faster, but the expansion benefits from standing up in qualitative terms on that kind of time frame]

Planes won't really start receiving until 1918, again the war is eating up production, basically all US production is going to France, and England with the US moving to start having the next batches. The US monopolizing all spruce production (by this point US Army Signals Corp is responsible for organizing production in the pacific northwest) which means there is not an abundance of spare airframe material, and almost all engine production is being monopolized for other projects.

Once the war ends oh well then thats different because that ironically is one of the few things that John Jordan didn't think of when he got his dumb arms embargo put into place, and the British government 'eh no, we're okay selling fighter aircraft, and bombers to different provinces in china', also because the Italians, French, Americans, etc etc were all doing it as well. So by 1920 then there will be air planes

Imperator Pax · Dec 18, 2022

Q&A Part 2: The Political Dynamic, and whats coming in the future
Summarized

As I've mentioned previously I make use of primary sources, of historical people and events, and in particular of agreements that individuals, corporations and governments that were entered into in order establish much of the lead up to the present in the timeline. Now this story was originally spun off from a CYOA build and from an out of universe standpoint the build up of characters and plots integrated other ideas. US corporations and their British and French, Japanese and German parts even were capable of acting abroad in frankly means and ways that we would normally associate with a state government. They exercised in the 19th century, and into the early 20th territorial rights and ambitions and were key shaping factors in national policies. That is a keystone, a fundamental building block in the cadre, because the cadre's corporate holdings operate under a notion of extraterritoriality even if during the Qing, and Yuan Shikai, and now nominally speaking Duan Qirui it is with the blessing of the hosting government [That was nominally the case of historical extraterritoriality as at least those conveyed by treaty rights were a recognition by the host country, and thats goes in 19th century treaties]. This also goes into the patronage networks and power and wealth.

Most of the cadre are west point graduates, and represent either in blood, or ties of friendship to the pseudo aristocratic families of means within the states. This directly ties them to the US of the early 20th century's political system. Does this mean Wilson likes what they're doing? No, but as long as Lansing and Colonel House cover for them, Wilson was the sort of president who could be talked around to it, and the Cadre being willing to intervene in things like missionary safety and that being able to during this period be able to reach midwestern papers by the end of the week by telegraph or telephone provides social sanction to what they're involved in. Wilson is also the sort of president who wants to violate the open door policy by treading on US corporations, even if he doesn't like bankers, because he also supports free trade, and thinks that its good for everyone.

At the same time however it is now 1917 the great powers of Europe have been at war for going on three years. That has had tremendous impact on the global trade balance. This has made producers of articles of trade being consumed by the entente very wealthy, especially as demand drives prices up particularly when supply cannot keep up. This in particular hits the French particularly hard, and effects their foreign policy and an evolution of how they interact with their allies, and WW1 is the avenue by which the modern US government centralizes from a federal perspective it is to use a very tired analogy the crucible that forges the late 19th century New America into a new nationalism it basically takes what TDR was trying to do and its under Wilson that the US evolves. This is really what splits the cadre off from the US because Wilson was fundamentally a dreamer president, and when he had his stroke his wife Edith basically seized power, she sacks Lansing (the secretary of state) and Wilsons inability to manage, to recover or even before that get the US Senate on board with his proposals really breaks the international consensus in Europe.

The French and British were planning the division of their victory spoils by 1915, and this culminates in the case of the ottomans with their dictating of Sykes Picot and informing their current cobelligerents (i.e. Imperial Russia), and the Franco-British agreement this division of spoils continues because France still diplomatically is perceived as a great power, as a very influential power. The French through out this period have been (in the early 20th century) able to talk the British around to their position for the most part. This is why the entente survives as long as it does because France takes up for Russian belligerence and keeps the alliance from breaking down by working with francophiles in the British government. France pushes for economic controls and this is in the shape of things like price controls, but more long term things that will still be in effect for the post war market.

Now once 1919 rolls around there is a political break that comes with the end of the war, where its no longer the cadre so much as a corporate entity, but a pseudo governmental one increasingly leaning towards a territorial government. Other parts of the Cadre export this to Middle America and help shape the banana wars but in China, in specifically north China, the end of the war means a change in both politics and economics. This means collecting taxes, criminal justice (no longer just referring things to Peking for review) and other parts of government oversight. That basically means keeping other foreign powers out the Soviets are thing even though the Russian civil war is ongoing. But thats also the next arc.

This arc will wrap up before we get to there, with (most probably) that next arc's opening being 1919 dealing with the restructuring that moves them from a corporation with government like features to an actual administrating government with a constitution. That will take place ahead of things in the east the ZHili and Anhui cliques conflicts, and then Fengtien under Zhang Tsolin in Manchuria becoming involved in the scuffling for who gets to rule over the nominal position of premier or president of China and hold peking.
--
So at present that is to say post July 1917, political positions can be summed up in terms of each's most important goals:
Duan Qirui: Get China to pass a declaration of War on Germany. Additionally secure his present power base, and secure funding for a larger more reliable army.
The UK: Insure that there is secure rail access from Pacific ports to make sure supplies (and if necessary manpower) from pacific ports to shore up the Russian front.
The Terauchi Government: Stabilize relations with China [Yamagata Aritomo is basically chastising the Japanese government, and expressing serious concerns for whats going on with Russia at this point,] repairing and solidifying the ANglo-Japanese alliance is important, but the Japanese government wants to avoid committing troops to the territorial war.
The US: Effectively participate in the European War, in Asia this means bringing in engineers and making good de facto economic spheres of influence concessions in the Russian far east relating to the Trans Siberian, preferably without being required to land troops in the Russian far east to do so.

Feng: Preferably convince the rest of the Beiyang leadership in his role as President that the Beiyang clique needs to reunify weld over their differences and focus on local issues rather than becoming involved in a repeat of the invasions of the south that attritted the strength of Yuan Shikai's government.

Sun Yat-sen: Make whatever deals he has to in order to be recognized as in charge and secure funding for the KMT. Nominally opposes the war declaration on Germany in parliament

[Changes his opinion in September in an attempt to get British recognition for his southern government a month after the declaration for war passes in the north]

Imperator Pax · Dec 18, 2022

Various Unit Order of Battles and Tables of Organization
Large scale units (Continuous)

[Note: Maybe attempt to edit tables in later for Personnel, Light machine guns, HMGs, and artillery]

Unit	Personnel	Rifles [Standards]	LMG	HMG	Kr3IN	10.5cm	15cm
Regimental Level
Battalion Level
Company Level
Platoon Level

2nd Infantry Division (Triangle) [Nominal Organization 1918]

3 Infantry Regiment Divisional Headquarters (CO Brigadier General commanding in practice, there are no major or lieutenant generals at this point) + with Divisional level supporting units
Composition of 5th and 6th Infantry Regiments
3 Infantry Battalion + Regimental Train (Organic, Quartermasters distributing ammunition and supplies within the unit) Regimental Artillery (Attached Battery) Engineer Battalion (Attached, would include the signals company as well as field works personnel) + Regimental HQ
3 Infantry Company + Machine Gun Company+ Battalion Train (Ammunition transportation organic to the unit) Artillery Battery (attached), Field Engineering Company (attached), Logistics Company (Attached, combination of Medical and transportation of personnel, actual would operate trains)+ Battalion Headquarters
4 Infantry Platoon +Machine Gun Platoon (4 Heavy Machine Guns, nominally Vickers Machine Guns in 8mm Mauser, in practice some are still Maxims) + Company Headquarters
4 Rifle Squads+ Mortar Section (4 Sykes Three Inch mortars) + Platoon Headquarters

The above is based off of a nominal arrangement that can be more or less summarized as an evolution of the organization of the US 15th Infantry Division except built on a triangular scale. It still retains a lot of pre war heavy machine guns it still operates on operational logic that dictates that officers should be fighting with rifles rather than having lower level officers commanding/leadership role. [Notably in 1920 2nd Division will be reorganized and move 3 Infantry Platoons to a company with additional newer machine guns, but that gets also into events of 1920]

2nd Division is an Infantry Division, and thus lacks the specialization for offensive action that 1st and 3rd Divisions would have (which I don't have those posted yet, but this goes more into specialist equipment and attached units). 2nd Division is also the nominal lead division of the Reserve component, which is based off of the US National Guard [and I can't say anything more about that barring spoilers until after Yan Xishan actually gets the ball rolling on that, because historically he took the US National Guard model applied it for his home province and was able to field an a hundred thousand man NG by the twenties that could be called up in emergencies as needed).

This does not include specific equipment, we will get to that later, but I will basically be dividing table updates for Regimental Brigade and Division level units here, and using the first table threadmark for Battalion and below including tallying specialist formations, which will likely include any core equipment.

And of course what follows, in how this is stood up goes back to the core of unit model. Xian's basic unit is the Regiment, so this is also why the Gendarmes are a Regimental formation on paper when in practice they are a mildly overstrength light infantry battalion. So when Xian goes to establish 2nd and 3rd Divisions they do so by splitting off the 2nd Rifle Regiment, and then a few months later 3rd Rifle Regiment to serve as the corp of these new divisions with subsequently obviously 1st Division also receives two new Rifle Regiment. [and in the future this will after 1920 change in that there is a difference in Rifle versus Infantry Regiments rather than the distinction between Division types being just what specialists are being attached, but you have to have actual division formations first]
--
3rd Division (Proposed, 1918)

3rd Regiment, 7th Regiment, 8th Regiment
[Details to follow]

--
Brigades versus Independent Brigades
Original Xian Brigades refer to 1st and 2nd Artillery, and the Corp of Engineers, Independent Brigades are small combined arms groups, and the distinction of independent in this case refers to their mixed combat capability not to their arm of service

ATP · Dec 18, 2022

Imperator Pax said:
Various Unit Order of Battles and Tables of Organization
Large scale units (Continuous)
[Note: Maybe attempt to edit tables in later for Personnel, Light machine guns, HMGs, and artillery]

2nd Infantry Division (Triangle) [Nominal Organization 1918]
3 Infantry Regiment Divisional Headquarters (CO Brigadier General commanding in practice, there are no major or lieutenant generals at this point) + with Divisional level supporting units

3 Infantry Battalion + Regimental Train (Organic, Quartermasters distributing ammunition and supplies within the unit) Regimental Artillery (Attached Battery) Engineer Battalion (Attached, would include the signals company as well as field works personnel) + Regimental HQ
3 Infantry Company + Machine Gun Company+ Battalion Train (Ammunition transportation organic to the unit) Artillery Battery (attached), Field Engineering Company (attached), Logistics Company (Attached, combination of Medical and transportation of personnel, actual would operate trains)+ Battalion Headquarters
4 Infantry Platoon +Machine Gun Platoon (4 Heavy Machine Guns, nominally Vickers Machine Guns in 8mm Mauser, in practice some are still Maxims) + Company Headquarters
4 Rifle Squads+ Mortar Section (4 Sykes Three Inch mortars) + Platoon Headquarters

The above is based off of a nominal arrangement that can be more or less summarized as an evolution of the organization of the US 15th Infantry Division except built on a triangular scale. It still retains a lot of pre war heavy machine guns it still operates on operational logic that dictates that officers should be fighting with rifles rather than having lower level officers commanding/leadership role. [Notably in 1920 2nd Division will be reorganized and move 3 Infantry Platoons to a company with additional newer machine guns, but that gets also into events of 1920]

2nd Division is an Infantry Division, and thus lacks the specialization for offensive action that 1st and 3rd Divisions would have (which I don't have those posted yet, but this goes more into specialist equipment and attached units). 2nd Division is also the nominal lead division of the Reserve component, which is based off of the US National Guard [and I can't say anything more about that barring spoilers until after Yan Xishan actually gets the ball rolling on that, because historically he took the US National Guard model applied it for his home province and was able to field an a hundred thousand man NG by the twenties that could be called up in emergencies as needed).

This does not include specific equipment, we will get to that later, but I will basically be dividing table updates for Regimental Brigade and Division level units here, and using the first table threadmark for Battalion and below including tallying specialist formations, which will likely include any core equipment.
--

Artillery - buy/steal newer versions of germans gun and ammo - for example,77/35 instead of 77/27.
Buy their 20mm AA gun which later become Oeriklion - and turn it into Polsten/cheaper version with less parts/
Here:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...0_mm_Polsten&usg=AOvVaw1CtL6Fx5fsYs_qP4be6B-K
I am sure,that american engineers could do that after 1920.
To be honest,it is strange WHY nobody did not try it before WW2

planes - buy one german/A-H new fighter and engineers who made it - you could choose Pfalz D.XII,Roland D.VI,Albatros D.III,Siemens-Schuckert D.IV,Dornier-Zeppelin D.1 from Germany.
Fokker was going to Holland,and Junkers DI was made from metal - bad idea in 1918.

AiH - Albatros D.III,Aviatik/Berg D.I/only oryginal construction -Julius von Berg made it/,Phoenix D.II - modified version of german Brandenburg D.I

Buy their engines - but not Austro-Daimler,choose Otto Hieronymus,his stronger engine had 169kW power,compared to 138kW german engines.
And,Porsche engine had,of course,problems.
Another reason to choose him - you would save his life,he would not die in stupid accident in 1924.

Imperator Pax · Dec 18, 2022

ATP said:
Artillery - buy/steal newer versions of germans gun and ammo - for example,77/35 instead of 77/27.

This has basically already happened with the new 3 inch field guns [because it is such an obvious thing to the caliber 27 guns, It astounds me that Krupp didn't already have these in production before the war broke out]

Buy their 20mm AA gun which later become Oeriklion - and turn it into Polsten/cheaper version with less parts/

Here:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwif2_-ZkoT8AhWRlYsKHaSHCn8QFnoECBoQAQ&url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20_mm_Polsten&usg=AOvVaw1CtL6Fx5fsYs_qP4be6B-K
.

This is also useful for another reason we were talking about cost of artillery which is what the oerlikon is,

quoting from the article:

. The cost of one Oerlikon cannon was about £350, while the cost of the Polsten was between £60 and £70

That is in 1944 Pounds but still, that should give a good idea of what [small] caliber automatic cannons could cost in bulk manufacturing. At that point your ammunition for combat costs more than the gun itself

ATP · Dec 18, 2022

Imperator Pax said:
This has basically already happened with the new 3 inch field guns [because it is such an obvious thing to the caliber 27 guns, It astounds me that Krupp didn't already have these in production before the war broke out]

This is also useful for another reason we were talking about cost of artillery which is what the oerlikon is,

quoting from the article:

That is in 1944 Pounds but still, that should give a good idea of what [small] caliber automatic cannons could cost in bulk manufacturing. At that point your ammunition for combat costs more than the gun itself

Another reason,why i wonder why nobody did polsten before WW2.They were bitching about costs of guns,but never made cheaper version? where is the logic?
The same about howitzers and fieldguns built o the same frame to cut costs.
Everybody should do that.Well,soviets did.

Imperator Pax · Dec 18, 2022

ATP said:
Another reason,why i wonder why nobody did polsten before WW2.They were bitching about costs of guns,but never made cheaper version? where is the logic?
The same about howitzers and fieldguns built o the same frame to cut costs.
Everybody should do that.Well,soviets did.

The Polsten I would guess is because the Olerikon's development can be summarized as change it to a longer cartridge, they kept changing it. The first iteration is from 1916 and its a by 70R, and by the late 20s its a x110R and I suspect that required adjustments to the internals so when they finally settled on a caliber. This is definetly what we're gonna use, they start production of the Oerlikon in the mid to late 30s thats when they start looking at simplifying it. Everyone complains cost, but Ordinance also insists on then changing what bullet it shoots and you have to then go back and reworks.

But that is my guess. I know when the US started production on the Bofors they made changes for simplification... but there is also this US stereotype of Sweden's arsenal system of being santa's workshop full of christmas elves making every thing by hand and one of the first things the US does is make a chassis for the gun and then mass produce that... but its still a reasonably complex system they didn't change the gun so much as how they were making them. (To the point Chrysler made sixty thousand of them under budget and ahead of schedule).

Clearly its doable, so again my suspicion is procurement kept changing design requirements on the builders which forced them to rework things, which meant no one had time to focus on just simplifying things (and we're too busy making sure that new cartridge doesn't kaboom the gun)

and yeah the chassis thing, that should have been something that didn't take a major war to figure out they would be useful (with as much complaining about costs). If you have a limited number of chassis for gunmount that's less training your mechanics have to do (they don't have to learn a dozen systems, they have to learn 3), which means retention is easier and that means keeping the guns in service

/i digress, because some of this obviously hindsight looking back at stuff I really think should have been obvious.

ATP · Dec 19, 2022

Imperator Pax said:
The Polsten I would guess is because the Olerikon's development can be summarized as change it to a longer cartridge, they kept changing it. The first iteration is from 1916 and its a by 70R, and by the late 20s its a x110R and I suspect that required adjustments to the internals so when they finally settled on a caliber. This is definetly what we're gonna use, they start production of the Oerlikon in the mid to late 30s thats when they start looking at simplifying it. Everyone complains cost, but Ordinance also insists on then changing what bullet it shoots and you have to then go back and reworks.

But that is my guess. I know when the US started production on the Bofors they made changes for simplification... but there is also this US stereotype of Sweden's arsenal system of being santa's workshop full of christmas elves making every thing by hand and one of the first things the US does is make a chassis for the gun and then mass produce that... but its still a reasonably complex system they didn't change the gun so much as how they were making them. (To the point Chrysler made sixty thousand of them under budget and ahead of schedule).

Clearly its doable, so again my suspicion is procurement kept changing design requirements on the builders which forced them to rework things, which meant no one had time to focus on just simplifying things (and we're too busy making sure that new cartridge doesn't kaboom the gun)

and yeah the chassis thing, that should have been something that didn't take a major war to figure out they would be useful (with as much complaining about costs). If you have a limited number of chassis for gunmount that's less training your mechanics have to do (they don't have to learn a dozen systems, they have to learn 3), which means retention is easier and that means keeping the guns in service

/i digress, because some of this obviously hindsight looking back at stuff I really think should have been obvious.

Seems logical - but,your China still could have Polsten before WW2.And the same chasis for many guns,too.
I think,that new 76 guns and 105,150mm howitzers would be enough for WW2.
All your artillery need is Long Tom,and MAYBE naval 127mm gun for long distance bombardment./in army,of course,and on wheels/Maybe german 170mm long distance gun,too.
Mortars/60,120,160,maube 240mm/ and missile launchers - i think,that your engineers could made Grad..

P.S in Poland case - we do not have enough money,so we keep old french 75mm guns and czech 100mm howitzers.When we made prototypes of new howitzers and guns on the same chasis,it get not enough money,and would be produced in 1940.
In the end,we tried to save money,failed in it/still need to produce ammo for old,and maintain it/,and still had obsolate guns.Soviets were smarter.

Imperator Pax · Dec 19, 2022

ATP said:
Seems logical - but,your China still could have Polsten before WW2.And the same chasis for many guns,too.
I think,that new 76 guns and 105,150mm howitzers would be enough for WW2.
All your artillery need is Long Tom,and MAYBE naval 127mm gun for long distance bombardment./in army,of course,and on wheels/Maybe german 170mm long distance gun,too.
Mortars/60,120,160,maube 240mm/ and missile launchers - i think,that your engineers could made Grad..

P.S in Poland case - we do not have enough money,so we keep old french 75mm guns and czech 100mm howitzers.When we made prototypes of new howitzers and guns on the same chasis,it get not enough money,and would be produced in 1940.
In the end,we tried to save money,failed in it/still need to produce ammo for old,and maintain it/,and still had obsolate guns.Soviets were smarter.

There will be a batch of Eight Inch/50 as railway guns, single run of them used in the late thirties I can't say much more than that for spoilers [which you wouldn't need for more than that because relining them is comparatively easy and cost efficient for them]

I know the US built Five/38s for Merchant ships (these sales were done in the 30s) so yeah 127 should certainly be a thing. I'm not familiar with the German 170, but I'll check that. Grad style rockets will start showing up in the twenties when we get to rockets

ATP · Dec 19, 2022

Imperator Pax said:
There will be a batch of Eight Inch/50 as railway guns, single run of them used in the late thirties I can't say much more than that for spoilers [which you wouldn't need for more than that because relining them is comparatively easy and cost efficient for them]

I know the US built Five/38s for Merchant ships (these sales were done in the 30s) so yeah 127 should certainly be a thing. I'm not familiar with the German 170, but I'll check that. Grad style rockets will start showing up in the twenties when we get to rockets

railways gun - you could take them from russians,after defeated whites start coming to your China.They loved armored trains,and railway guns,too.
I once read about whites using 406mm railway gun on Siberia,dunno if it is true or not.
They certainly started building superbattleship with 406mm guns,so it is possible.

Imperator Pax · Dec 24, 2022

July 1917
The englishman handed him a glass, it was brandy but he'd drink it since the other two men were. "Minister Reinsch has been informed of the way things need to be from here on out."

Allen grunted, recalling the conversation with his father at the legation, prior to his own meeting with Reinsch, "You mean State told him that it prefers a unified china than a necessarily democratic one." He replied... oh yeah he'd been told exactly what the professor thought of that. Of the ideas of 'rule through the old dynasty'... "So you know then?"

"That he was the one who told President Li about the loan," in January "Premier Duan was making with mister Nishihara, yes Minister Reinsch was quite curmudgeonly about the prime minister's behavior."

John Jordan behind his great desk looked over at them looking as much school master as Reinsch looked a mid west professor, "The fighting was unavoidable, and our esteemed American colleague did allow his optimism to blind him to that." John Jordan remarked. "My larger concern as plenipotentiary are the weapons Sun Yat-sen is receiving through Canton from Japan, and how it may lead to further unpleasantness." Old Ser John sighed tiredly, "But that is unfortunately not my greater responsibility, I have spoken of it, but we must focus the greater effort of our day on the matter of the war effort."

Edward Gray had been kicked out of the Foreign Service and Lloyd George had begged Reinsch to go back to Asia... the British Parliament, the unified government had its mind on the situation of the empire, and was engaged in a war for the sake of its Empire's prestige and honor. They were committed to fight it.

... and the papers, the photographs, the telegrams painted a bleak picture. Not the least made clear that the Foreign Service was now coming to grips with both a distrust of the French, for previously covering for the Tsarists in the entente, among other complaints, on the basis that either French or the Russians had been lying about the political situation.

This had gone well beyond the pessimism of the Russian Army's ability to sustain itself. In British isms 'no longer an effective ally'. There was a question of how much Kerensky was lying... that should have been asked earlier. There was a now prevailing belief that socialists of any sort were suspects of troublemaking. Certainly the prevailing mood was to suspect any Russian socialist of being a potential German patsy. Doubly so given the labor unrest in England since May.

A paranoia that was apparently contagious since the state department was putting it word for word to Washington and to Wilson where the Virginian was working himself up to fitful episodes of nervousness. There were other developments, but they were hard to read from across the pacific. American grain shipments could reach Petrograd and then Moscow , but the interior of the country side had largely been stripped of manpower, and of the draft animals the year before, and the railroads which were unreliable and slow would make it hard to see grain make it into the far interior. Demand was high, supply was low, prices were thus high.

"Sir Alfred has no confidence that Russians will make it through the winter if thing keep the way they are."

A prophetic warning as it turned out... but not in the way Knox had intended it to be. He'd been looking at the details of the 'southwest', Russian, front, of the conditions of the twelfth army, and of other matters he'd been privy to.

But with Duan secure in power, or at least as secure as he could be, they could turn towards dynamiting through mountains , and laying track with labor crews... if the price was right.
--
This luncheon would have been nothing but an afternoon to laugh an afternoon away if not for recent hostilities. The mug clinked down on the table, "How soon until they mention it to Reinsch?"

That was the question. Reinsch was not nearly as esteemed in his european counterparts eyes as he thought he was.... on the other hand Reinsch did have Wilson's ear. "Not quickly, I imagine. The papers are signed, once the bank drafts are confirmed we can start the work."

"Dollars?"

"Yes."

There was a shocked look, "They didn't try and haggle?"

"Morgan is underwriting from what I'm told." He shrugged. There was a low whistle. "London must be sore about it." He replied in agreement, "Can we do it?"

"Ten miles a day? Certainly." There was a pause, "But well you know, how these things go. Its not going to be completely straight, you can't dynamite a river. We'll make up some time in some parts one of our good crews can manage double that in short bursts." Well you could divert it but, that wasn't exactly the same thing. "And the Russian side of the border? What then, we'll have to change over," John Paul paused, "You know Elliot has the idea that given Powell's Nicaruaga job that we could train up a lot of railway men, and then when this job is done send them over there." He reached for the lobster in front of him before it was barely even on the table good, "I mean it won't be exactly the same, but."

"We're going to have to send people over, its not the worst idea." He replied reaching for the steak knife. It would expand their labor force, "He knows Powell wants to get into mining over there right?"

"It won't compete with us shipping steel to them."

"Oh I know that." It would take time for a mine to get up and running, and it'd take longer before Powell could hope to get any kind of heavy industry, he'd need electricity... hopefully by that point this nastiness in Europe would be over the markets would have normalized, and they could stop fretting about the in-between of right now and back to normal.

In hindsight they would look back on that and realize normal was an illusion, really the idea of normal, normal was just the wrong word. Chasing normal was a mistake, the pivot that the weight was balanced on had shifted, and a new stability was needed. "Whats the word how's that tax business going?"

The Ma clique had made the decision to continue sending the taxes Peking was owed. It was one of the stickler points that the Ma clique was holding to in talks. "We've put an offer to Duan Qirui about it." There were potential sticking points about the salt gable, and such, but they were striking while the iron was hot, and they knew that the beiyang governor's association, the government in peking needed the money. "It preliminary, Griswold is digging through the archives right now, something about the tax system doesn't make sense." Which in hindsight, was the mother of all understatements, but underscored a truly ancient problem... "But if Qirui takes its confirmation of status in being."

"Foreign currency." It wasn't a question.

He paused to swallowed down the morsel of steak, "He's going to take British Pounds. We're pretty confident that he'll accept a fix annual payment upfront. The same thing every year."

Part of it probably was Duan was short on cash, but probably just as much as needing cash now he wanted a reliable amount... and he didn't likely want to start a problem with other provinces about trying to raise tax rates given the fragile state of government.

One thing would lead to another, and by 1919, long after the attempt to restore the last Manchu emperor had faded from popular consequence in favor of then more pressing matters in Peking... well they'd' move on to an actual modern tax system for the provinces covered by the agreement and Peking would still receive a fixed annual lump sum for several years after that regardless of who was actually in power. The coastal warlords would leave things along. Anhui, Zhili, Fengtian would fight and they would sit in the interior as the world changed.

The medieval taxes that the Qing Emperor in the 18th century had frozen were to be a lingering hold over of an arrangement that reflected a simpler time, and arrangement of the powers in north china. Qirui for his part was eager for a potential reliable source of foreign currency by which to build up a newer stronger army for his already planned attack into the southern provinces. Qirui was fundamentally operating on the mistaken assumption that the Beiyang governors association were united in keeping the whole country together which Feng would soon deflate after being offered the presidency... but that and other matters would be in the future.

For the time being, "Its one less thing to have to worry about."

"It is that." Allen agreed in between mouthfuls. They might have been able to get Qirui to agree to an arrangement like this anyway even without Zhang xun's misadventure, but it probably wouldn't have been considered a necessary step... but the consensus was that things were not good right now and were probably going to get worse in the future because Qirui and Li had had such a public falling out. "I'm glad Shan didn't run into any trouble on the border while this was going," It was late in the second week of July but the time had stretched out, two weeks of fighting, and train rides had mutilated the sense of time.

"We were lucky." Allen acknowledged the comment with a nod as he chewed, and JP dipped another piece of lobster in a cream colored sauce, "The work in Suiyuan is done, so a couple more days and we can start training people."

"Really? Thats good. We're ahead of schedule then, it would be nice if they could build steam cases for the locomotives." They were going to need more engines. It'd been the whole reason for another shop... well that and SIW had been planned to take advantage of the area's existing iron mines to fuel said iron works.
--
Notes: We may either have one more July update, or just go ahead and skip to August of 1917, because while there is content written taking place on the 28th of July dealing with the fallout of the Beiyang civil war for lack of a better less cliche description it can be referred to in dealing with the communications clique, and Feng becoming President in the august chapter. And also the research probably gets introduced, or at least mentioned, I'm about half way through august dealing with the declaration of war on Austria-Hungary and Germany.

Unique · Dec 24, 2022

So he is going to be the only person among the warlords in China who can repair as well as rebuilt a railway line? Cause during the warlord era destroying railway lines was like cutting your income and all and they only do it to to deny their enemies income or something along those lines. Btw so he is going to start making the trains? How much money will he be making? And how large of a territory does he control? Also Merry Christmas : )

Imperator Pax · Dec 24, 2022

Unique said:
So he is going to be the only person among the warlords in China who can repair as well as rebuilt a railway line? Cause during the warlord era destroying railway lines was like cutting your income and all and they only do it to to deny their enemies income or something along those lines. Btw so he is going to start making the trains? How much money will he be making? And how large of a territory does he control?

Not technically. Zhang tsolin up north in Manchuria has the personnel to do it (but he also is very friendly with Japan), Sun Yat-sen knows the people to do it, but he doesn't have the money ussually (especially given how the southern spheres of influences work, both in international terms as well as provincial cliques in spheres of influence. The Yunnan clique can maintain their own railways but they can't really extend them which was by design Yunnan railway made it difficult to invade the province.

Technically they're already manufacturing rolling stock further east, Suiyuan is further in the interior its a larger possible yard space, Zhili has a lot less space to build these things.

As for money, actual income would be distorted by the war export of things like pig iron, which as already been mentioned market price for that in demand terms are so significantly inflated by war demand that it is really profitable to be exporting even unrefined metal products to the British empire, I think in 1917 price per ton hit 81 USD in 1917 money which is in terms of profit a lot even factoring shipping that to Canada or the two months to the UK proper. I don't have those papers handy at the moment, holiday travel, I will probably have to look for them in January.

Territorial control in 1917 is basically the western half of Zhili province, Zhengzhou township, and the eastern half of modern Shaanxi directly. Indirectly there are significant rail corridors that have been built into the interior but these are trunk and branch lines there is not at this point direct provincial control. This will change in 1918 especially where basically all of Shaanxi province is under formal administration, also because certain people stir up Szechwan's militarists and they start declaring independence causing more trouble and that gets into both Duan Qirui as well as the Ma Clique through the spring of 1918.

Merry Christmas

ATP · Dec 24, 2022

Why somebody in USA want united China? for them,another 100 years of cyvil war would be ideal.Or three Kingdoma for next 300 years.

Russia - Kerensky basically made suicide.I read many memories of polish troops in russian or polish armies in those times/they were formed in Russia/,and all dascribed the same:
Kerensky come with passionate speach about Mother Russia,soldiers cheered for him,he leaved and come Lenin agents taking about peace.
Which was free to doing so,becouse Kerensky belived that only Right is bad.And,after few months,soldiers mutinied or just go home.

If Kerensky made peace,Russia would survive.If he killed bolshewiks and only defend,Russia would survive.
But - he let bolshewik works,and started offensive.He killed Russia as much as Lenin.

I read,that he do not made peace,becouse he was low-rank french mason - when he wanted to,french ambassador come and ordered him to fight in the name of french masons.Could be true

P.S On Siberia,except czech traitor legion was also polish dyvision.They fought in rearguard,till Czech destroyed rairoads,so they could not retreat.And gave Admiral Kolchak to soviets,and all russian refugees.Soviet let them go with russian gold.
About 10% of polish soldier which surrender died in prisons.1000 manage to breakthrough to allied positions.

Imperator Pax · Dec 24, 2022

ATP said:
Why somebody in USA want united China? for them,another 100 years of cyvil war would be ideal.Or three Kingdoma for next 300 years.

Russia - Kerensky basically made suicide.I read many memories of polish troops in russian or polish armies in those times/they were formed in Russia/,and all dascribed the same:
Kerensky come with passionate speach about Mother Russia,soldiers cheered for him,he leaved and come Lenin agents taking about peace.
Which was free to doing so,becouse Kerensky belived that only Right is bad.And,after few months,soldiers mutinied or just go home.

If Kerensky made peace,Russia would survive.If he killed bolshewiks and only defend,Russia would survive.
But - he let bolshewik works,and started offensive.He killed Russia as much as Lenin.

I read,that he do not made peace,becouse he was low-rank french mason - when he wanted to,french ambassador come and ordered him to fight in the name of french masons.Could be true

P.S On Siberia,except czech traitor legion was also polish dyvision.They fought in rearguard,till Czech destroyed rairoads,so they could not retreat.And gave Admiral Kolchak to soviets,and all russian refugees.Soviet let them go with russian gold.
About 10% of polish soldier which surrender died in prisons.1000 manage to breakthrough to allied positions.

Kerensky was both an ideologue and beholden to French money. Also probably to some degree walking a tight rope between himself getting potentially couped by the army. Initially because of French support Kerensky has support from the US State Department, and the British Foreign Office when he comes to power the secretary of state and his people are thrilled (fast forward a couple months and reality has unfortunately set in)

As for China, its about US goals, and ideology in this period . the US commitment to a unified china goes back to the 1860s as a foreign policy ideal and this is buttressed by an English commitment to not allowing China to be divided up territorially (now to be fair this is also because of the French being the french, and going around playing games behind Englands back [1]) but by 1870s and beyond there is an institutional US interest in the state department aimed at a central chinese government that the US can both trade with, and be involved with without being bogged down in European problems. (this is why the US legation and concession are run in conjunction with the British Legation. The US territorial concessions in China are merged with that of the UK), and a key part of this is both agriculture policy, and its also manufacturing. US tabacco, US Standard Oil, a lot of US rail companies, get together with state and are in consensus for goal if not for motives that a united china is better for US interests than a disunited one

and this goes to especially with how the Qing ran businesses... or more accurately that they didn't. Nominally speaking Qing business reforms were based off of German corporate law, but in practice they never seriously in force versus the Qing allowing foreign corporations to act, and since customs and duties was internationally managed it was financially beneficial for there to be a unified china. [This is also the reasoning the Terauchi government in Japan took in that it was more profitable to have a single market rather than a bunch of unsafe fractious smaller markets] and again this goes to international competition. In a single large secure market the US firms of the period are absolutely going to outcompete everyone, numbers two and three will be the UK, and Japan if there is no legal chicanery. (And it is that which France resorts to to make up for the lack of competiveness for french railway companies in this period rather than trying to have them be more competetive, the French diplomatic corp will call the lawyers and read extremely deeply and taken any clause as far as they're allowed to in order to try to stop projects that france might have any hope of getting the contracts for)

[1] Not in regards to things like the treaty of london where Napoleon III blatantly lied about french policy goals regarding Mexico, but also regarding competition in Africa, as well as in Asia. While there were certainly pro French politicians France was still the de facto historical enemy and its really only after 1900 that German supersedes the French fully as the rival, and of course it doesn't help that France is allied to Russia and Russia makes the British angry for things like the great game particularly in India

As for the czechs while I don't normally write ATL which might be perceived as righting historical wrongs for the sake of righting them (generally because they requie a lot of hand waves, the tsar's gold, the czech legion, frankly most of the foreign legion troops and the whole course of the Russian civil war in the far east will be altered significantly by the events of 1918 and that western rail line the British want built as a contingency to link into the Trans caspian and trans siberian lines

ATP · Dec 25, 2022

Imperator Pax said:
Kerensky was both an ideologue and beholden to French money. Also probably to some degree walking a tight rope between himself getting potentially couped by the army. Initially because of French support Kerensky has support from the US State Department, and the British Foreign Office when he comes to power the secretary of state and his people are thrilled (fast forward a couple months and reality has unfortunately set in)

As for China, its about US goals, and ideology in this period . the US commitment to a unified china goes back to the 1860s as a foreign policy ideal and this is buttressed by an English commitment to not allowing China to be divided up territorially (now to be fair this is also because of the French being the french, and going around playing games behind Englands back [1]) but by 1870s and beyond there is an institutional US interest in the state department aimed at a central chinese government that the US can both trade with, and be involved with without being bogged down in European problems. (this is why the US legation and concession are run in conjunction with the British Legation. The US territorial concessions in China are merged with that of the UK), and a key part of this is both agriculture policy, and its also manufacturing. US tabacco, US Standard Oil, a lot of US rail companies, get together with state and are in consensus for goal if not for motives that a united china is better for US interests than a disunited one

and this goes to especially with how the Qing ran businesses... or more accurately that they didn't. Nominally speaking Qing business reforms were based off of German corporate law, but in practice they never seriously in force versus the Qing allowing foreign corporations to act, and since customs and duties was internationally managed it was financially beneficial for there to be a unified china. [This is also the reasoning the Terauchi government in Japan took in that it was more profitable to have a single market rather than a bunch of unsafe fractious smaller markets] and again this goes to international competition. In a single large secure market the US firms of the period are absolutely going to outcompete everyone, numbers two and three will be the UK, and Japan if there is no legal chicanery. (And it is that which France resorts to to make up for the lack of competiveness for french railway companies in this period rather than trying to have them be more competetive, the French diplomatic corp will call the lawyers and read extremely deeply and taken any clause as far as they're allowed to in order to try to stop projects that france might have any hope of getting the contracts for)

[1] Not in regards to things like the treaty of london where Napoleon III blatantly lied about french policy goals regarding Mexico, but also regarding competition in Africa, as well as in Asia. While there were certainly pro French politicians France was still the de facto historical enemy and its really only after 1900 that German supersedes the French fully as the rival, and of course it doesn't help that France is allied to Russia and Russia makes the British angry for things like the great game particularly in India

As for the czechs while I don't normally write ATL which might be perceived as righting historical wrongs for the sake of righting them (generally because they requie a lot of hand waves, the tsar's gold, the czech legion, frankly most of the foreign legion troops and the whole course of the Russian civil war in the far east will be altered significantly by the events of 1918 and that western rail line the British want built as a contingency to link into the Trans caspian and trans siberian lines

1.Well,that explain why Kiereński was giving speeches instead of taking heads.French from 1914 was far from their 1789 roots.
2.So,USA capitalist saved China.Lenin was right in their case - they really sell rope on which China could hung them.
3.Napolen III tried to be next great Emperor,and failed.One of many cases,where leaders tried that and lost power.
But - that not explain,why England was so silly after 1871.It was obvious from that point,that their next enemy would be germans,not french.
But - that is old british problem.They still fought spaniards,when they should fight french,and still fought french,when they should fight germans.
Russian games in India - another british idiocy,what tsar could do? send 30.000 cossacks? if so,so what? they would accomplish nothing.Russians could not send real army there,so why bother?
Yet idiot british feared that for most of 19th century.
4.Czech - they were practical people.They betrayed Kolczak,russians and poles becouse they profited from that.If they could get more for being honest,they would remain honest.
They knew how to fight,but their definition of honour was very flexible.

Imperator Pax · Dec 25, 2022

ATP said:
1.Well,that explain why Kiereński was giving speeches instead of taking heads.French from 1914 was far from their 1789 roots.
2.So,USA capitalist saved China.Lenin was right in their case - they really sell rope on which China could hung them.
3.Napolen III tried to be next great Emperor,and failed.One of many cases,where leaders tried that and lost power.
But - that not explain,why England was so silly after 1871.It was obvious from that point,that their next enemy would be germans,not french.
But - that is old british problem.They still fought spaniards,when they should fight french,and still fought french,when they should fight germans.
Russian games in India - another british idiocy,what tsar could do? send 30.000 cossacks? if so,so what? they would accomplish nothing.Russians could not send real army there,so why bother?
Yet idiot british feared that for most of 19th century.
4.Czech - they were practical people.They betrayed Kolczak,russians and poles becouse they profited from that.If they could get more for being honest,they would remain honest.
They knew how to fight,but their definition of honour was very flexible.

In the English's case, thats a basically due to how victorian parliamentary ping pong worked. Not just prime ministers but also the changes in the late victorian era and the FSO as a result. The British fundamentally wanted a 'do not rock the boat' foreign policy internationally and yes part of that goes to Napoleon III overreached and had to contend with a fight he then proceeded to lose, but in losing that fight he definitively killed the existing concern of Europe that had defined the post Napoleonic wars order of thing as a result Parliament plays dumb games but this comes out of basically late victorian conditions

we take it for granted today that in the 20th century that Britain and Germany were enemies that wasn't implicitly true in 19th century when most policies were fermented. In the Victorian age the Prussians and the Swedes were still considered allies (I mean technically Sweden provided iron and timber to England even into this period, this is actually referenced regarding iron prices earlier) but any annoyance the British felt at the Germans during the latter half of 19th century was almost always overshadowed by the Russians or the French. Particularly for India, but also the French attempted to instigate a war over Egypt (and thus the suez canal which in particular threatens British trade empire) and in about 1900 that was still apparently on the mind of the public now to be fair what quickly happens is the Germans go from annoying to well you have the Boer war (which Kaiser Bill decides to shove his nose in) you have the Russo-Japanese War, and Tirpitz Naval league (and the subsequent bills) on top of things like the Moroccan crisis. [Also that Edward Gray was very pro French, and was a shrewd political operator, Asquith and Lloyd George could be considered also part of this francophile wing in parliament]. Wilhelm the second just repeatedly makes a mess of things antagonizing British sensibilities

This goes to British foreign policy of deterrence, the British did not like spending money on the army. and the Boer in particular had repeatedly been the embarrassment of the British army who otherwise had significant colonial victories (as a result result the British leadership especially after 1902 when the second boer war ends, never mind memories of the Crimean war in terms of cost (and particularly how that made British leadership feel about journalists and talking about the war to the public at home)) were very loath to get into any kind of stand up fight with another major power [As an example of this the Japanese alliance required that if Britain or Japan were engaged in war, the other part would be neutral, unless a third party intervenes at which case the other party enters the war] the British made an agreement and stuck to it because of a policy of what can be described as incrementalism, you very very rarely see revolutionary changes in British systems or policies in this period.

Its like watching grass grow, change is very slow and WW1 is where most of those big significant changes take place but compared to WW2 its war cabinet is very small very very different compared to the one in ww2 (and again this goes to the changes in the British system of parties in parliament due to ww1)

Especially in this period, Institutional Inertia thy name is the United Kingdom.

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