Redemption Quest (Exalted/Worm) (Elements of Peggy Sue).

Gandalf_the_Dirty · Aug 15, 2022

MageOhki said:
Little known fact: WHERE and HOW you get the money isn't the IRS's problem. It's that you have it. That's why you *literally* can put down "Murder for Hire" and *it can't be used against you.* as your source of income.

Just as I said. With Mumber Man's help they can be sure no one (but them) will find how much they actually have, so long as they don't spend too much in their civilian IDs. And so long as they "don't have" a lot of money in their civilian ID, IRS almost certainly wouldn't give them troubles.

MageOhki said:
Elite simply pays their taxes. That's it.

Either you mistake them with someone else, or... Wait, you mean in their civilian IDs? Yes, sure. But as parahumans? As organization? Lol, nope. They're gang.

MageOhki · Aug 15, 2022

Gandalf_the_Dirty said:
Just as I said. With Mumber Man's help they can be sure no one (but them) will find how much they actually have, so long as they don't spend too much in their civilian IDs. And so long as they "don't have" a lot of money in their civilian ID, IRS almost certainly wouldn't give them troubles.

Okay... yeah. I'm not even sure where to begin debunking this... but in short? The IRS in the 60's had that problem licked.
Even with the weakened systems compared to RL, and to be fair, Number Man's flair with math, the sheer amount of institutional knowledge and capability to track money, open to the IRS, makes that one a non-starter. While the IRS might not be able to find where (nor do they care, actually, not really) the money is parked, they'd know who earned it, and where it came from. That's the problem the Numberman can't solve. Not won't, can not. Don't care, he's one man.

Either you mistake them with someone else, or... Wait, you mean in their civilian IDs? Yes, sure. But as parahumans? As organization? Lol, nope. They're gang.

Why not? Hate to tell you this, even the Costra Nostra in the 50's and 60's paid their taxes. The IRS was good then, by the 80's it was very good. The only thing really holding them back from getting every cent, is lack of manpower, not institutional knowledge and concept of flow. The headaches for the IRS would come when dealing with international payments and outgoes. That's where the margins can be played, but since supposedly... say, Toybox? Sells to the US Government... they'd pay taxes.

There is also the fact that several people would try to use the stuff they brought as writeoffs/etal, etc. That'd also tip 'em off.

But, since all the IRS can legally do is *go after unpaid taxes* or perjury on your tax return... you can pretty much tell the whole truth on how you earn the money, and the IRS doesn't care. In theory. Usually there's a dodge or two that if you 'squint' that'd cover what you're doing, enough for perjury not to attach, so you don't openly admit what you're up to, since the IRS will unofficially say to the FBI... "W" is doing "X" THAT is what money laundering is all about, cleaning the money enough that you don't openly admit what you're up to. That's really the service Number man provides. Not hiding and making it untraceable. He'd not have enough *time* to do anything else!

Gandalf_the_Dirty · Aug 15, 2022

MageOhki said:
Even with the weakened systems compared to RL, and to be fair, Number Man's flair with math, the sheer amount of institutional knowledge and capability to track money, open to the IRS, makes that one a non-starter. While the IRS might not be able to find where (nor do they care, actually, not really) the money is parked, they'd know who earned it, and where it came from. That's the problem the Numberman can't solve. Not won't, can not. Don't care, he's one man.

We're talking about AU that explictly contradicts canon, not something that supplement it and fills the blank spots, then.
Don't think "one man", think "immensely sophisticated AI with processing power magnitudes higher than everything our civilization have combined".
Shards may give rather limited and weak powers to their Hosts. But that doesn't mean Shards themselves are in any way limited or weak. And Number Man is one of the top "rocketed-through-the-roof" level Thinkers.

MageOhki said:
Why not?

Don't ask "why not", ask "why yes". In their civilian IDs they have to pay taxes, sure. Because they have to explain expenses. But as Capes? Do they have any reason to do it, when they can't, in turn, get their rights protected by laws? I don't think so.
Thanks to Number Man, government can't track money, while they can use it. Why would they pay, or how someone (except Number Man himself, Contessa, and maybe March) can force them?
Sure, if they'd be captured, fines will be there for them. But before that?
Again, real life examples how someone couldn't avoid taxes doesn't really mean anything, when they didn't have superpowers that allow it in play.

And you may want to re-read his interlude, if you genuinely think he can't do it.

P.S. You forget about another possibility: Either Kurt (Number Man), or one of his assistants may be head ot IRS.

gale · Aug 15, 2022

Gandalf_the_Dirty said:
Infernals, basically, are twisted Solars, and most of their Charms are same - twisted version of Solar's Charm.
.

This is wrong, Infernals use Yozi charms. I know, as I have the book and made some characters using it.

Gandalf_the_Dirty · Aug 15, 2022

gale said:
This is wrong, Infernals use Yozi charms. I know, as I have the book and made some characters using it.

*digging books* Indeed. My apologies. There no small amount of resemblances, but not nearly as much, and not nearly as big, as I thought.
My words mostly apply to Abyssals. I haven't played for several years, and rarely encountered Infernals, let alone studied them, when I did.

Akuma-Heika · Aug 16, 2022

MageOhki said:
Essence Materials, have to be *spiritually* active as well to leave Yu-Shan, Autochitiona, Malfeas or the Underworld. Tattoos, actual beings of essence(gods/spirits), soul steel all qualify. Other materials that don't meet that, do not. (And no, can't go around it via Cache egg/elsewhere)

I am assuming the rest of the magical materials (assuming they haven't been christened with Vitriol) could come over as well due to the least gods attached to them (according to MoEP: Infernals, and probably other places as well)

Bit of a slug fest. 17+K words a chapter is a bit much, especially since they seem to be written in segments

gale · Aug 16, 2022

Gandalf_the_Dirty said:
*digging books* Indeed. My apologies. There no small amount of resemblances, but not nearly as much, and not nearly as big, as I thought.
My words mostly apply to Abyssals. I haven't played for several years, and rarely encountered Infernals, let alone studied them, when I did.

It's fine. Abyssal are darker copies of Solars. While Infernals are more well, like spirits. Or rather the Yozi. They also have more permentant charms and play off themes a lot more. Another thing I hope is used here is Devil Tigers, aka Primordials 2.0. I would say use some homebrew but that is more to show the Infernal inner world aspect. But that is me. I do hope to see a Infernal who isn't a enemy tho. Rebles exist after all.

MageOhki · Aug 16, 2022

Gandalf_the_Dirty said:
We're talking about AU that explictly contradicts canon, not something that supplement it and fills the blank spots, then.
Don't think "one man", think "immensely sophisticated AI with processing power magnitudes higher than everything our civilization have combined".

I have noting but respect for the computation capability of the Shards (even though I'm kinda modeling them different, because of 'mechanics!'). What I don't have is an uncritical view of the interface. I never implied that Kurt's shard (or to be fair, Contessa's) couldn't do this.

I implied, and meant Kurt couldn't. The point isn't the capability of the shard. Flat out. It's the capability of the shard's host.

Kurt only has so many hours a day. He wants to do other things. There comes a point where to cover up the money for tax purposes (much harder than cleaning it for other agencies) will physically take too much time.

He also does investing. He also does tasks for Caldron. Yeah, no, the ability to do so for more than a few people is simply not there.

Or more precisely: Have you ever typed so fast it took time for the computer to catch up to what you were typing? That's the problem, in it's own nutshell. The shard itself could do it. (well, at least in theory, it's an complex n+1 problem, where n is approaching a absurdly large number. It'd not surprise me if there is a limit there, too, but for this consideration, I'm presuming it's still below the threshold.)

In fact, by Kurt doing investment work, he makes the problem worse, for this purpose.

Shards may give rather limited and weak powers to their Hosts. But that doesn't mean Shards themselves are in any way limited or weak. And Number Man is one of the top "rocketed-through-the-roof" level Thinkers.

It's the time that he can afford to spend on this purpose, vs the time it takes him. That's the only consideration. The shard, is immaterial, since I'm presuming that it has the capability itself. But it has to work though Kurt.

It's not a simple problem. For each and every individual he does it for.

Don't ask "why not", ask "why yes". In their civilian IDs they have to pay taxes, sure. Because they have to explain expenses. But as Capes? Do they have any reason to do it, when they can't, in turn, get their rights protected by laws? I don't think so.

"This business hasn't paid it's corporate taxes!" "Yours now, IRS!" It's not that they *want* to pay. (While there are people who do want to pay their taxes, I'm pretty sure almost everyone else would be like: "Yay! No Taxes!"

Elite Sells X to Y. Y is then asked by the IRS "Who did you buy X from?" Y: "Elite." IRS: "... Elite didn't pay taxes."

THAT is the problem. Not hiding the money, hiding *transactions*. Unless you do pure cash or trade in business every single time, you will get caught.

Even pure cash transactions get you. In the end, the amount of work you'd do to avoid getting caught in taxes outstrips the cost of paying taxes. Your goal is to clean the money enough, so that the Other parts of Treasury and DOJ can't nail you for illegal activities. the IRS doesn't care where you get the money from. (Now if you lie on your tax forms... you're fucked.)

Kurt does investment, manipulating economies, laundering money is actually much easier and much faster than actually trying to hide all transactions. In other words, he's a cleaner, not an evader

Thanks to Number Man, government can't track money, while they can use it. Why would they pay, or how someone (except Number Man himself, Contessa, and maybe March) can force them?

Bullshit.
They might not be able to track easily, but once again the Numberman is running up against the physical capability of his own body, vs the number of actions he'd have to take. It isn't the inability to hide individual transactions. It's not the inability to do one, two, 10, even 100 people. It's more, and it's everyone they do business with.

Nor does it say anywhere in Worm, or the Wiki, (and I checked) that Kurt does tax fraud and evasion.
He provides criminals banking services.

Edit: In fact, he flat out states in his interlude how he'd fail, basically.

Sure, if they'd be captured, fines will be there for them. But before that?
[/quote]
Fines? Try everything, plus the IRS would push hard for Birdcage.

Again, real life examples how someone couldn't avoid taxes doesn't really mean anything, when they didn't have superpowers that allow it in play.

Except, he doesn't have the other superpowers (in fact, of all comics, Stan Lee stated how the physical limits work.)
that'd be needed. It's an n body problem, in primus. where the limit to the calculations is his physical body, not the shard.

And you may want to re-read his interlude, if you genuinely think he can't do it.

For one person? No doubt. 'spc if they were simple/easy/were a straight W-2 problem. 10 people? Same. 100 people/businesses... would begin to depend on how complex the situation is that each are in. I won't doubt he can see patterns and flows as good as any IRS team ever. I won't doubt he could automate a fair bit of it. But the question he likely asked, and figured out is below.

And he pointed out and I quote: "Money was the blood of civilized society, its currents running through everything and everyone." And later on... "The Protectorate was still needed". The Protectorate needs money, ergo, tax evasion is not to the benefit of the Protectorate.

What benefit to him and his goals is it for large scale tax evasion?

(Side note, the blurb where Kaiser goes down for it, isn't actually evasion, it's fraud. No excuse, that was a fuckup.)

P.S. You forget about another possibility: Either Kurt (Number Man), or one of his assistants may be head ot IRS.

See above point. Unless in text it states he does so, or has agents, I'm presuming he doesn't. More importantly, he very much likely suffers from the same blind spots most do. His power, in a lot of ways is a form of idiot savant, taken to 12.

Great power for an accountant, government drone, even financial advisor but predicting what people will do en masse at the numbers, he doesn't have the capability to get all the needed data for himself.

In fact: "Contessa is busy" from the same interlude is the clearest counterargument I can make in itself. The power may be willing, but the flesh is weak.

.. and why in hell are we debating this? If it comes up at all in story, it'll be because of individual fuckups (ala what nailed Kasier.), not Numberman. (Plus Danny actually knows how to play the system to get away, and they're not going to use him, since, um, Solar Charms are just that bullshit.)

(Side note: If you've ever heard the term 'no show' jobs, this is exactly why they exist. And have for well upon nearly 80 years at the least.)

Akuma-Heika said:
I am assuming the rest of the magical materials (assuming they haven't been christened with Vitriol) could come over as well due to the least gods attached to them (according to MoEP: Infernals, and probably other places as well)

The least gods are 'attached' when the item is made. not to the raw material. I said Spirits is the key (which is why demon tattoos, Lunar tattoos, Autobot charms make the cut), I should have been more specific: Spirits with defined, and capable of manipulating essence to an extent (hun soul). Soul steel barley makes the cut.

Or more precisely, I wanted a bit of a challenge for the exalts, and avoid the "ALL THE TOYS!" syndrome that can happen with 2e rules.

Not that it's going to help, mind you, but primarily, I'm using the rule of thumb, with the exception of Jade, 1 dot of exotic ingredients can be acquired per 2 months, more or less.

Unless I'm talked into something different.

Bit of a slug fest. 17+K words a chapter is a bit much, especially since they seem to be written in segments

That it is, thank you for doing it.

gale said:
It's fine. Abyssal are darker copies of Solars. While Infernals are more well, like spirits. Or rather the Yozi. They also have more permentant charms and play off themes a lot more. Another thing I hope is used here is Devil Tigers, aka Primordials 2.0. I would say use some homebrew but that is more to show the Infernal inner world aspect. But that is me. I do hope to see a Infernal who isn't a enemy tho. Rebles exist after all.

A: Will depend on the voters. My Infernal expert (I'm not great at them), is not happy with Spacebattles, so encourage him here!

B: Eh, It's possible, or it's not possible. We shall see. Personally, Infernals make great Raid Bosses... but it's what it is.

(Side note, a friendly Infernal was clearly possible, but the questors didn't vote for it. Oh, well.) As it stands, 3 of the 5 Solariod slots are filled.

(Ex-Annette is the Dawn slot, Taylor is Zenith, and Colin got the Twilight. I have no idea about Night or Ec. Slot yet, if they even show.)

Now *to editing* Next snipplet will be up in upwards of an hour.

MageOhki · Aug 16, 2022

What is defined by what will not happen, does not have to Define what will happen

Taylor recoiled back from her mother's words. For a moment, she thought about apologizing, and admitting she had rushed without thinking, then remembered standing at the grave of the woman in front of her. The sheer rage she felt fueled her following words.

"How you would have felt?" Taylor seethed. "How you would have felt? Oh, I don't know, maybe exactly as I did, at your grave!" Emma paled as Taylor built up a fury, but her tugging on Taylor's arm was ignored. "As for Dad, maybe he'd have finally gotten around to seeing me since, you know, he didn't after you pretended to die!"

Shadowy Wings stepped back at the pure fury in her daughter's tone. Taylor ran over any attempt to respond with words of fury and pain.

"You claim you were told by the Neverborn to not even let us know. Okay." Taylor took a deep breath. "If so, then you get no room to try to stop me from doing what Sol Invitius asked me to do!" Danny had walked up and was looking at his daughter with a titled head, and caught her eyes.

"And you!" Taylor's eyes burned into him. "You left me be on my own as it was! What makes you think you get any say now?" Taking a deep breath, she hissed. "I am a Zenith. A Priestess of the Unconquered Sun. He didn't promise safety, he promised I would have a chance to save the world, and you can't stop me from trying!"

Sarah decided to end this conversation for everyone's safety as she seemed to tap away at an invisible keyboard. "Bye now!" She grabbed the two younger Exalts and they disappeared.

"... Dammed Vizers." Shadowy Wings sighed. "Why did she have to inherit your temper?"

Danny sighed as well as he looked down on his wife. "And your stubbornness. Though Sarah was right to pull a fade."

****

The three appeared in the center of the living room of Taylor's house. Taylor staggered for a second, turning green slightly but holding it together, while Emma staggered over to a small trash can, bent over and retched a few times. Finally, the Solar of the three asked. "What the hell was that."

"It was called 'Tattletale and Friends aren't there.' being put into the Loom of fate." Sarah blew out a breath, winded. "Useful, and I didn't want you or your parents going at each other not just with words, but blows and blades…"

Emma straigented up, still a bit shaky. "Yeah… I remember the Memorial Day Merchant Stomp…" Sarah tilted her head. "Let's not have a repeat of that. But… Aunt Murderhappy was right, it was a bit foolhardy."

Taylor turned to look at Emma, fury flaring again in her eyes. "And I'm just not supposed to do what I need to do to help save the world?"

Emma held up her hands, shifting back to human as she did so. "Hey, hey, Tay Tay, not saying that. Just… maybe do it from a bunker next time? Behind a wall at least?"

"Or at least wear armor." Sarah nodded. "Or work on taking hits, or dodging them. We can be killed. And remember, we do things better, and well, sometimes, people just don't want to listen."

Taylor turned to look at Sarah, still angry, but blew out a breath at the last words. "Okay. That… I guess I can do." She paused for a second, then complained. "I thought we could make them listen. That's what Sifu said, I thought…"

"Not… quite." Sarah shook her head. "He stated we have an easier time, both by skill and pumping essence of making people listen. And that it's hard, very hard, to ignore a Solar… but in a lot of ways, the advice on how to deal with Thinkers is the perfect advice to deal with Exalted trying to convince you of something." Sarah smiled ruefully. "Don't let us talk."

"... and I didn't talk fast enough, did I?" Taylor facepalmed.

"Pretty much, yep. Bad form, TayTay." Sarah smirked. "Learn from your Lunar mate. Speed!"

Taylor turned and looked at Emma. "Exactly why did you follow me? Fighting isn't your thing!"

Emma looked hurt. "I wasn't going to leave your back uncovered, TayTay, you're mine."

"Am I?" Taylor's words caused Emma to turn to look at Sarah, with a raised eyebrow, then return to Taylor. "Why do I remember dreams of you stealing and destroying Mom's flute? Remember dreams where you used everything I said to you in private, to attack me in school!"

Emma stared, shocked. "I would never! You are my sister! We grew up together, we know each other better than anything and you got to know I wouldn't!"

"Actually… hate to say this, Ems… you did." Sarah interrupted.

The Lunar turned and glared at the Sidierial. "BULLSHIT!" Pausing for a second. "I feel her, I feel connected to her. As Sifu said, that's a good sign I have a bond with her. No way, I didn't, I won't!"

Sarah shook her head. "You did, after breaking, Emma Barnes. In fact… tonight, if I remember right, you were attacked by the ABB, threatened with having your face destroyed, raped to death, and your father who was there, unable to do anything. You broke. If you had the potential to trigger, you would have then." Sarah sighed. "I told you both, Taylor is apparently remembering the future that will not be."

Emma stared. Finally she shot back. "Well that didn't happen, anyone who tries that now, gets a pawful of claws to the FACE! Taylor is mine! No one gets to hurt her."

Sarah tilted her head slightly. "Well… this actually explains a few things." She sighed, and held up her hand cutting off the Lunar. "But…" Turning to Taylor she looked at her, and was as serious as she could be. "She's right, you are her Solar. She will protect you, cover your back and kill your foes. Lunars are guardians, warriors and defenders, Taylor. And what Emma might have done in the future that will not be, isn't what she's going to do now."

Taylor looked at them both. "How can I trust that? Everyone has lied to me, or hurt me. Mom?" Taylor snorted, disgusted. "Dad, even when he got some fire back, did his best to ignore me!" Turning to Emma. "Even she admits you would have!" Taylor looks around and shakes her head. "And .. And…"

"Well… fuck." Sarah summed up in two words the situation. The Oracle sighed. Emma was simply staring at Taylor, tears pooling in her eyes. Finally Sarah broke the silence.

"Okay. Okay. I think… well, okay, more hope, you'll listen, Tay." Sarah looked her in the eyes. "Listen to me true. Listen to me completely. This is my oath. This is my pledge. I will never intentionally hurt your heart, hurt your soul. I, in the future that would not be, was and here, I hope, your friend. If you want, the moment we find an Eclipse, or we can go to Yu-Shan, and I might be able to get a Maiden to use the Eclipse oath binding, and I'd swear that oath to you. You know what those oathbindings do."

Emma nodded. "So will I." And she paused. "And maybe we can talk Aunt Murderhappy and Uncle Danny into it as well…" She tapped her chin as she finished that.

Taylor stopped and thought for a moment.

So, what does Taylor do?
[ ] Distrust the Oathbinding (after all Sarah gave her that information…)
[ ] drag everyone to Yu-Shan as soon as possible (with surprise guest star)
[ ] Talk to Dragon.
[ ] Handle the PRT Testing.
[ ] Write in.

AN: Voting is also possible on SB, and remember, Exalted do not do safe as a rule of thumb.

Iron_Bard77 · Aug 16, 2022

[X] drag everyone to Yu-Shan as soon as possible (with surprise guest star)

Alright, then we get it done NOW!

Psyckosama · Aug 16, 2022

[X] Reject the Oathbinding completely. Trust is built on trust.

Gandalf_the_Dirty · Aug 16, 2022

gale said:
It's fine. Abyssal are darker copies of Solars. While Infernals are more well, like spirits. Or rather the Yozi.

No? They are Solars. Whose Exaltations were captured by agents of Neverborn when Jade Prison been broken. 100 went to Underworld to be transformed/corrupted into Abyssals, while another 50 were given to Yozis for their assistance.

"That was the plan, but that wasn't what happened. Maybe, the beast's claw fell at the wrong angle or with too much force. Maybe the Jade Prison wasn't constructed quite the way the Deathlords thought. Whatever the reason, the Jade Prison didn't fracture. It shattered, blinding several of the beast's eyes and destroying the claw that struck it. Exaltations fled in every direction as the beast tried to catch them in its grasping, flailing chains. When the chains could find no more Exaltations, they retracted into the beast's maw and extruded themselves down into the Labyrinth. Altogether, the creature had snagged only about half of the Essences the prison had contained. Disgusted, the Deathlords broke off contact with the beast and took their disappointing haul to their masters. The Neverborn gave the Yozi ambassadors their 50 Exaltations, and the Demon Princes proved as good as their word. They taught the Neverborn how to create the soul-corrupting mechanisms they had designed, then retreated back to their own prison with their new prizes."

"The Deathlords know that they disappointed their masters by offering them only 100 or so Exaltations instead of 250. Nevertheless, the Neverborn taught the Deathlords how to join an Exaltation to a mortal soul. The Neverborn also guided nephwrack slaves in the rites and procedures to create the receptacles that would contain and warp the Solar Exaltations: the Monstrances of Celestial Portion. After a period of rigorous testing with mortals stolen from convenient shadowlands, the first Abyssal Exalted were declared successes. Thereafter, the Neverborn divided the stolen Exaltations among the Deathlords, who imbued them into the Monstrances and set out to find suitable mortals to Exalt."

"The Neverborn's and Deathlords' experiments with their captured bounty resulted in roughly 100 twisted, corrupted Solar Essences bound to Monstrances of Celestial Portion. To call a deathknight nothing more than a tainted Solar Exalt, however, is a vast understatement. Deathknights differ from the returning Lawgivers in the same way the Underworld differs from Creation. One is not simply a reflection of the other captured in polished obsidian, but a total inversion of the other set to diametrically opposing ends. Nearly everything about an Abyssal's experience — from the way he is selected for Exaltation to the ultimate goal of his existence — would seem alien or abhorrent to a Solar Exalt. While the two types of Exalt share some common ground, that ground is thin and cracked and uncomfortable for both."

"One potential field of deathknight recruitment (or impressment) available to the Deathlords is the pool of re-emerging Lawgivers. All a Deathlord need do is build a new Monstrance of Celestial Portion for the Lawgiver, throw him in and torture his body and mind until his Exaltation breaks and twists from Solar to Abyssal."

"Such was their broken nature that they could no longer conceive of a way to build something new and better on their own. All they remained able to do was to change that which already existed to suit their needs." (about Yozi)

"The Deathlords wrapped up the 50 Exaltations they had promised in containers of Yozi design and transferred them to a highly valued akuma belonging to Kimbery. That akuma brought the Exaltations to Hell, and the five conspiring Yozis divided them up evenly. Malfeas snatched up the Dawn Caste Exaltations, and to his sister went the Zenith Castes. She Who Lives in Her Name claimed the Exaltations of the Twilight Caste, and the Ebon Dragon named as his the Exaltations of the Eclipse Caste. The Night Caste Exaltations, the only ones that remained, were granted to Adorjan. The five Yozis then twisted and corrupted their newfound belongings, just as the Solars and the gods had once twisted and corrupted the Primordials into the Yozis."

That's why I thought Infernal Charms are, like Abyssals, are (mostly) twisted version of Solars. Because they are, themselves, twisted version of Solars.

gale · Aug 16, 2022

Gandalf_the_Dirty said:
No? They are Solars. Whose Exaltations were captured by agents of Neverborn when Jade Prison been broken. 100 went to Underworld to be transformed/corrupted into Abyssals, while another 50 were given to Yozis for their assistance.
That's why I thought Infernal Charms are, like Abyssals, are (mostly) twisted version of Solars. Because they are, themselves, twisted version of Solars.

I was talking about how there charms work. Thry are more like spirits then Solars. They are also explicitly not like Abyssal. Infernals are explicitly more like Yozi as they have more souls then another exlated as they can grow a soul hierarchy. Hell they used Essence alone for a minimum need for things. Compared to solars and Abyssal that need a ability.

gale · Aug 16, 2022

[X] Talk to Dragon.

Gandalf_the_Dirty · Aug 16, 2022

MageOhki said:
I have noting but respect for the computation capability of the Shards (even though I'm kinda modeling them different, because of 'mechanics!'). What I don't have is an uncritical view of the interface. I never implied that Kurt's shard (or to be fair, Contessa's) couldn't do this.

I implied, and meant Kurt couldn't. The point isn't the capability of the shard. Flat out. It's the capability of the shard's host.

Kurt only has so many hours a day. He wants to do other things. There comes a point where to cover up the money for tax purposes (much harder than cleaning it for other agencies) will physically take too much time.

He also does investing. He also does tasks for Caldron. Yeah, no, the ability to do so for more than a few people is simply not there.

Or more precisely: Have you ever typed so fast it took time for the computer to catch up to what you were typing? That's the problem, in it's own nutshell. The shard itself could do it. (well, at least in theory, it's an complex n+1 problem, where n is approaching a absurdly large number. It'd not surprise me if there is a limit there, too, but for this consideration, I'm presuming it's still below the threshold.)

In fact, by Kurt doing investment work, he makes the problem worse, for this purpose.

MageOhki said:
Except, he doesn't have the other superpowers

Physically possible? Shards often play fast and loose with it. Even when power in question, at first glance, wouldn't look like it breaking these 'rules' in any way.
For example, do I need to quote what he did with european Nazis? That shouldn't be possible in timeframe of thirty seconds. Just by hardware and software limitations, and time to exchange commands between Number Man's laptop and bank PCs. Yet, he does, and don't even think about it as something weird.
Even if we ignore how it shouldn't be possible to substract money from account without either using vulnerability/backdoor in bank system, or owner's consent, or official government (law enforcement) power.

And while he doesn't know he have any other superpowers, doesn't mean he doesn't. See Jack Slash. Hell, see Skitter, sho, just with three months through a bit of running turned from antisportive to fairly athletic person. Without any diet, any chemical support, or even any training beside morning runs. I, for one, suspect minor power to help her along the way.
Parahuman often have supporting powers that help them, and most of time don't notice it.

About "it impossible to make money untraceable":

It was average day for IRS head. Was, until his secretary called him with new problem.
Secretary: "Sir, "Fuckoff Bank" refuse to provide us any information about their internal transactions. They said according to their charter, they do not provide private information in electronic form, and if we want to receive it, then we need to come to their office."
Head: "Damn, we don't have time for that shit. We need this information now, not months later after the court. But why you brought it to me? No one else could send an intern to them to get damn papers?"
S: "Actually, yes, sir."
H: "What? WHY?!"
S: "You see, sir, their only office is located at, I quote, "Russian Federation, Siberia, Middle-Of-Nowhere city, No-Fucks-Given street, 2. Landmark: right across the road of Sleeper's residence". No one willing to go there."
H: "They mocking us. And they think they can get away with it?"
S: "Yes, sir. And they may."
H: *hissing* "What?"
S: "Because even if we prohibit our banks from doing business with them, we cannot prohibit banks from other countries, especially African and . In turn, it is impossible to prohibit our banks from dealing with all banks that use the services of Fuckoff Bank without causing a collapse of the economy."
H: "Damn it."

About Elite (and Toybox) and their taxes:

"Hello. Where can I find Coil?"
Two mercenaries looked at each other and stared at a man in a suit with a briefcase in his hand. After long and awkward pause one asked:
"Who are you, and what you want from Coil?"
Man sighed, and fished IRS employee ID from his pocket.
"I'm here to ask where your boss got this tinkertech from." He pointed on attachements under their assault rifles.
They blinked synchronously.
"I don't think boss would want to talk to you, but I'll pass it to him."
"Thank you, good sir. Honestly, it's not like I want to talk to him either. I suspect it wouldn't be pleasant for me, nor helpful. But I have work, you know. More than many people in this damn city have. And if my boss say 'Go and ask Coil if he brought it from Elite or Toybox, because they don't pay taxes', what would I do, refuse?"
One mercenary nod simpathetically, while other shok his head.
"Maybe you should, next time. Coil is mostly chill, and probably won't torture and kill you. But what if your boss send you to Merchants about their new Tinker next time? Don't sure what would be worse - death of forced addiction."
"Yeah, you're right, probably. Better be broke, but alive. Bye, guys."
"Bye."

"Hello, this is Samuel Brooke, from IRS. Here to see the director."
Secretary looked up from the monitor and nodded: "Okay, Mr. Brooke. Please wait, meeting with Protectorate heroes should end soon."
Indeed, after only a couple of minutes later, trio in colorful costumes left the office, and Samuel was invited.
"Hello, Mr. Brooke. How may I help you?"
"Hello, director. I'm here about city shields. Can you say where you get it from?"
"Oh, that agian. Each time someone got promoted they came to ask the very same questions. Okay, lets not waste each other time. First, yes, I know Uppercrust don't pay taxes. Second, I know he's part of Elite, who don't pay taxes either. Third, I will care about it only when there will be anyone else who can give us these shields."
"But..."
"Do you want to be one who will tell everyone who live here that we won't use shields because person who can give it not paying taxes? I'm not. Nor I want to be one responsible for tens, if not hundreds, of throusands lives that would be lost because we refused to pay for something that could buy them enough time to reach shelters."
"But!..
"Don't care. You may go and bitch about it to your higher ups, to my higher ups, or even to president himself. And everyone will tell you the same: 'we can't turn down his services'. Can you imagine how the insurers will raise their rates, for example? No, we will work with him. And we will pray he will work with us for many, many years."
"But laws..." Mr. Brooke's words was barely audible, man visibly deflated.
"You know what, you're right. Laws are important, of course. So, what about we give him a medal? For his contribution to the safety of the American people. And officially forgive all his debts and exempt him from paying taxes. I'll pass the idea up." Samuel was staring at the director, slack-jawed with eyes almost wide enough to mistake him for anime character.
"Of course," Director continued, "If you'll ask officially, then shields were gifted by Uppercrust to our beautiful city as a sign of gratitude for our hospitality. We have great accountants, good luck with finding any undeclared expenses. Dismissed."

MageOhki said:
Elite Sells X to Y. Y is then asked by the IRS "Who did you buy X from?" Y: "Elite." IRS: "... Elite didn't pay taxes."

"Who did you buy X from?" "From the trief who stole it"
Elite is criminal organization. Gang. Admitting you deal with them is a crime in and by itself.

MageOhki said:
Fines? Try everything, plus the IRS would push hard for Birdcage.

Nah. If they'd be captured by PRT: "No, sir, there's no this 'Dodge' person. No, we have no clue where they may be from... This? This is our new recruit, Evasion. Something wrong?".
And btw, Birdcage is explictly for parahumans that cannot be contained within conventional prisons. Canary, 'Dangerous Human Master' is a stretch, but can be explained. Tinkers? Not so much.

MageOhki said:
See above point. Unless in text it states he does so, or has agents, I'm presuming he doesn't.

I had hope smiley at the end would be enough to point that's joke.
But this argument sound weird from someone who ignore parts that canon explictly state (like Toybox being black market organization).

MageOhki said:
.. and why in hell are we debating this?

Because you said that Toybox is grey market, and operate within the laws. That's where this specific line of debates started.

Gandalf_the_Dirty · Aug 16, 2022

gale said:
I was talking about how there charms work.

Yeah, I got it. I just remember lore better than system, at least about Infernals, at this point. So, I remembered they are twisted Solars, but didn't remember how exactly their Charms looks and works.

MageOhki · Aug 17, 2022

Gandalf_the_Dirty said:
Physically possible? Shards often play fast and loose with it. Even when power in question, at first glance, wouldn't look like it breaking these 'rules' in any way.
For example, do I need to quote what he did with european Nazis? That shouldn't be possible in timeframe of thirty seconds. Just by hardware and software limitations, and time to exchange commands between Number Man's laptop and bank PCs. Yet, he does, and don't even think about it as something weird.
Even if we ignore how it shouldn't be possible to substract money from account without either using vulnerability/backdoor in bank system, or owner's consent, or official government (law enforcement) power.

Given that they have Dragon on their leash, and frankly how much math is in CompSci (I'm getting a migraine remembering my classes... I spent a *lot* of my own money on college classes, had to do something when my first career met a tree...) I'd presume he used a backdoor (or they got SWIFT updated, to allow him access. Wouldn't be that diffcult, in fact)

That scene *alone* proves he knows exactly how the system would catch his clients. And his limits. It isn't him. Nor his power. It's everything else involved. Again, it's not the issue of him being able to play the system, it's in fact, how the system works. He'd have had to redo the system from the ground up.

And while he doesn't know he have any other superpowers, doesn't mean he doesn't. See Jack Slash. Hell, see Skitter, sho, just with three months through a bit of running turned from antisportive to fairly athletic person. Without any diet, any chemical support, or even any training beside morning runs. I, for one, suspect minor power to help her along the way.

Jack Slash is a fair arugement. Skitter's change from lump to runner from hell... 3 months, dedicated? Well within human norms. Plus, honestly, she's at the tail end of her puberty where you can (proven) do exactly that.

Hell, you've likely seen the "Six Week process!" ads here and there over doing shit like that. It does work.

Parahuman often have supporting powers that help them, and most of time don't notice it.

Never said they didn't. Skitter's best example is her frankly insane multitasking. I don't recall when it was pointed out (if at all, in fact) to her, but her multitasking is up there with supercomputers built today. RL ones.

Which Contessa and Numberman also have, or should, to be fair (IF they don't? What we've seen doesn't work). My point on Numberman isn't his powers. Which, are right up there with E5 Solars for bullshit if not higher. (E2 likely E6 or 7, E3, still E5)
It is... he is one person. Limits exist. Physical, hard, limits. (in Exalted, it boils down to how many motes you have and your dice pool).

About "it impossible to make money untraceable":
*snipped*

About Elite (and Toybox) and their taxes:
*snipped*

"Who did you buy X from?" "From the trief who stole it"
Elite is criminal organization. Gang. Admitting you deal with them is a crime in and by itself.

1: It really is impossible to make it completely untraceable. Making it 'diffcult', and losing paths? Sure. Completely? Unless you operate completely by cash only, and cash only, and are only operating with people who do only the same, and own no property... and several other things, somewhere, the money will appear.

2: Numberman showed exactly once again, in his interlude, *how it'd fail*.

Flat out. I have seen nothing to say in that interlude, nor in WoG that he provides tax evasion services.

3: As for telling the IRS you brought X from Y, where Y is a criminal organization... for it to be a crime that the IRS can either report or act upon.
Two conditions must exist: A: it must be a direct lie to the IRS, and B: you attested to it.

Once again, the IRS has no authority and in fact is enjoined from reporting any crime but tax fraud and tax evasion related activities.

In other words, you have to break the laws regarding the IRS, first.

It is not illegal to buy services or items from criminals, unless the service or item is illegal or stolen. Try again.
(Nor is it illegal to provide such outside the two conditions above)

Nah. If they'd be captured by PRT: "No, sir, there's no this 'Dodge' person. No, we have no clue where they may be from... This? This is our new recruit, Evasion. Something wrong?".
And btw, Birdcage is explictly for parahumans that cannot be contained within conventional prisons. Canary, 'Dangerous Human Master' is a stretch, but can be explained. Tinkers? Not so much.

Anything "Dodge" or the DBA Dodge is doing, then is seized. That's why Elite, Toybox, et al, pay their taxes for one.
Second: Those who sell and buy to those evading taxes, can be nailed (it's hard, but it has been done) for conspiracy and RICO regarding tax evasion. Most people are going to fucking avoid that.

It's not so much, as noted previously, people want to pay their taxes, as it is, it's too much of a hassle not to.

The risk vs. the reward is so far on the risk side, that once they get a thread on you, they can literally make your life hell.

As for the Birdcage/Tinkers. Bakuda. QED.

I had hope smiley at the end would be enough to point that's joke.
But this argument sound weird from someone who ignore parts that canon explictly state (like Toybox being black market organization).

And then you say Toybox sells to the US goverment. That means they can't be true black market. Pick one, please.

Because you said that Toybox is grey market, and operate within the laws. That's where this specific line of debates started.

They *are* grey market by your own words.

Either this is a terminology clash, or, once again, Wildbow not knowing what the hell he's talking about.

What Grey market is (at least as I was taught, and use it) is in precise: "extralegal economic activities" or "economic activities that are illegal done in a manner to exploit a loophole or a unthought of manner, or economic activities that are illegal, done illegally that the civil authorities choose not to interdict."

RL case example:
Of illegal activities done illegally: Sugar Babies. (If anyone thinks that's not prostitution, I have a bridge to sell them). It's just not prosecuted. (And yes, actually, it can be, it meets the statue)
Of illegal activities done though a loophole: live action porn. They're being *paid* for sex, no?
Extralegal activities done because no one thought it'd be legal done that way: (Tries to think of a sex related one... Bit hard...) Right, my mind's drawing a blank on sex work related ones. ... Oh, Sex Therapists, some of them, maybe. Will have to go look at my notes from a while ago.

It is much easier to exploit the one off/artwork loophole for Tinkers than playing any other games. Does Toybox do black market activities? Ayup. En masse laser guns. Not a question. (Now, if that's a Firearms act violation or is it a NEPEA violation is a good question... Hmm...) Does Toybox also do what is completely legal activities? Ayup, as you point out, they sell to the Government. Therefore, they are *grey* not black.

And in the end, it's beyond the scope of this quest. Since, 'spc, the Exalts are going to operate differently than any parahuman.

Gandalf_the_Dirty said:
Yeah, I got it. I just remember lore better than system, at least about Infernals, at this point. So, I remembered they are twisted Solars, but didn't remember how exactly their Charms looks and works.

There's a *reason* I have my infernal expert...

Lunars and Infernals are the hardest to grok.

Alchemicals once you study them, are understandable. DB's? Easy. Solars/Abbies, *easy*, Siddies base, easy (It's how 2e fucked up with Astrology that makes them a pain)

Infernals... *ugh*

Akuma-Heika · Aug 18, 2022

I have finally caught up with this (still have 580 or so old alerts, and 332 new ones, plus any new chapters added to new threads in my alerts too still go through -_-), so proper review time!

MageOhki said:
"... spine and brain?" Taylor's face scrunched as she worked though it. Tattletale nodded again.

Maybe go with rear and front brain halfs, considering most animals won't function if you remove their brain (at least any vertebrates anyway [and invertebrates that actually have a brain will die shortly after, while spazzing like having a seizure])

MageOhki said:
We're Celestial Exalts, Taylor has the Creation Ruling Mandate.

Technically all traditional Celestial Exalts do (and debatably Dragonbloods as well, but since Gaia [and her Kami] wasn't directly part of Ignis's Celestial Order, her Essence wasn't tied into the mandate. Its why gods have more intrinsic respect for a street urchin than even the most powerful Dragonblood. The Urchin could Exalt as a Solar, Lunar, or Sidereal, the Dragonblood never can [fairly sure this was spelled out in a sidebar in Celestial Compass Vol2: Yu-Shan, but it could have been a sidebar in one of the Five Scrolls)

MageOhki said:
The Titans of your myths, though we called them Primordials

Titans are a reference to Grecian myth, and in their myths, the gods who arose from Chaos (and many of said gods children) were the Primordials, so this statement is not accurate, since the gods of Earth's myths in this scenario were also called Primordials

MageOhki said:
Theion, their king, bade Autochthon, the Great Maker, and Gaia, the Mother, to form it.

FTFY

MageOhki said:
The Sun, the bringer of Hope.. and I broke the rules, and lead all those who created Creation, and those created to rule it to do so. This is a crime. And the Price will be paid."

Guessing it counts as a major suppression of virtue, so he is out of it for a few decades...could be argued that since his rule was established to continue life, he broke no rules, just upheld higher ones that required committing misdemeanors to do

MageOhki said:
"Because, what you call Entities are apparently the escaped Primordials.

MageOhki said:
You will execute protocols for commencement of destruction of false-sibling: Entities. False-primordial parasitic infestation purge data commencing.

So who lied? Ignis Divine or Autochthon?

Edit: small critique about character sheets (two actually, but one is quasi-canon [sheet design]). For someone who argues about the sexualization of Taylor and Emma, you describe their figures with sexually charged wording. Apple instead of saying B-cups unless you were saying Taylor is fat or looks like a professional body builder (apples are thin at the bottom but then grow out, which is descriptive of male physiology)...although I am stretching on the latter, but those are the only non-sexual connotations I can think of, and hourglass figure is a term referring to a perfect female body type...with said concept of perfection based on sexual archetypes. Really through me off when I saw the character sheets and in the first few lines was said descriptions.

A number of text issues with mini-headers they look like, but I have no clue how to fix them. I am appreciative of the character sheets though

gale · Aug 18, 2022

MageOhki said:
A: Will depend on the voters. My Infernal expert (I'm not great at them), is not happy with Spacebattles, so encourage him here!

B: Eh, It's possible, or it's not possible. We shall see. Personally, Infernals make great Raid Bosses... but it's what it is.

(Side note, a friendly Infernal was clearly possible, but the questors didn't vote for it. Oh, well.) As it stands, 3 of the 5 Solariod slots are filled.

(Ex-Annette is the Dawn slot, Taylor is Zenith, and Colin got the Twilight. I have no idea about Night or Ec. Slot yet, if they even show.)
.

I say great call from the Infernal expert reading this over. And while Infernals are great raid bosses they can also be great counterpoint to Solars. I would suggest a Fiend if want to add one. They fill the Eclipse slot. Are a great fun, and open up fun things. As well, if you or your Infernal expert want other yozi more easily then the base 5.

MageOhki · Aug 18, 2022

First and foremost: Vote ends 8/19/22 0100MDT

Akuma-Heika said:
I have finally caught up with this (still have 580 or so old alerts, and 332 new ones, plus any new chapters added to new threads in my alerts too still go through -_-), so proper review time!
Maybe go with rear and front brain halfs, considering most animals won't function if you remove their brain (at least any vertebrates anyway [and invertebrates that actually have a brain will die shortly after, while spazzing like having a seizure])

Not quite sure what you mean here, to be fair.

Technically all traditional Celestial Exalts do (and debatably Dragonbloods as well, but since Gaia [and her Kami] wasn't directly part of Ignis's Celestial Order, her Essence wasn't tied into the mandate. Its why gods have more intrinsic respect for a street urchin than even the most powerful Dragonblood. The Urchin could Exalt as a Solar, Lunar, or Sidereal, the Dragonblood never can [fairly sure this was spelled out in a sidebar in Celestial Compass Vol2: Yu-Shan, but it could have been a sidebar in one of the Five Scrolls)

From the text of the lore, in 2e, Only the Solars got the Mandate. Now, the Mandate is to rule creation, not other exalts.
The reason why the gods don't like the Dragonbloods (and to a great extent a fair bit don't like the Sids) is they stole the mandate.

Titans are a reference to Grecian myth, and in their myths, the gods who arose from Chaos (and many of said gods children) were the Primordials, so this statement is not accurate, since the gods of Earth's myths in this scenario were also called Primordials

Unreliable narrator.

FTFY

Will prod editor.

Guessing it counts as a major suppression of virtue, so he is out of it for a few decades...could be argued that since his rule was established to continue life, he broke no rules, just upheld higher ones that required committing misdemeanors to do

It gets tricky. What Sol and the rest did, was basically break Creation, and everything else, to redo. Remember, the Solars put a no time travel working into place after Cascading Years. And in fact, the only way he could pull it off, was Gaia's creation of 'alternates' (ie, Earths), weren't part of the Working... even then.

Now, to be fair, Sol is not a 'good' guy by our standards today. Not a bad guy, but, yes. But no virtue suppression.

So who lied? Ignis Divine or Autochthon?

"There is your truth, my truth, then the truth." Or more presicely, what each of them knows, may be different.

While I have the mechanics defined for what the Entities are, in a lot of ways, nether really know the whole story.

Edit: small critique about character sheets (two actually, but one is quasi-canon [sheet design]). For someone who argues about the sexualization of Taylor and Emma, you describe their figures with sexually charged wording. Apple instead of saying B-cups unless you were saying Taylor is fat or looks like a professional body builder (apples are thin at the bottom but then grow out, which is descriptive of male physiology)...although I am stretching on the latter, but those are the only non-sexual connotations I can think of, and hourglass figure is a term referring to a perfect female body type...with said concept of perfection based on sexual archetypes. Really through me off when I saw the character sheets and in the first few lines was said descriptions.

To be fair, the sheets are an issue with Ed's Exalted. As for the terms used... whoops. Habit, I suppose, and I wasn't really thinking. Will think about editing it.

A number of text issues with mini-headers they look like, but I have no clue how to fix them. I am appreciative of the character sheets though

Honestly, not sure either, and you're welcome.

gale said:
I say great call from the Infernal expert reading this over. And while Infernals are great raid bosses they can also be great counterpoint to Solars. I would suggest a Fiend if want to add one. They fill the Eclipse slot. Are a great fun, and open up fun things. As well, if you or your Infernal expert want other yozi more easily then the base 5.

As I've said, we'll see. The votes you all make will have the say.

MageOhki · Aug 19, 2022

Vote Closed:
[X] Talk to Dragon won

Gandalf_the_Dirty · Aug 19, 2022

Sorry for late reply.

MageOhki said:
Given that they have Dragon on their leash, and frankly how much math is in CompSci (I'm getting a migraine remembering my classes... I spent a *lot* of my own money on college classes, had to do something when my first career met a tree...) I'd presume he used a backdoor (or they got SWIFT updated, to allow him access. Wouldn't be that diffcult, in fact)

That scene *alone* proves he knows exactly how the system would catch his clients. And his limits. It isn't him. Nor his power. It's everything else involved. Again, it's not the issue of him being able to play the system, it's in fact, how the system works. He'd have had to redo the system from the ground up.

That not access issue - I'm myself gave two options how he could do it without owner's consent. No, problem here is plain, boring physic laws. Kurt here, in thirty second, set up twenty operations. Ten transfers for different accounts, and ten delayed returns. 1.5 second per operation. Not impossible? Maybe. But he did it remotely. No matter how fast your own PC may work, no matter how fast you can work yourself, there's time for signal from your PC to reach target's PC, then be processed, and then travel back.
So, yeah, not gonna happen without bending "physically possible" at least little.

MageOhki said:
It is... he is one person. Limits exist. Physical, hard, limits. (in Exalted, it boils down to how many motes you have and your dice pool).

Indeed. You are absolutely right.

And since, as I learned from comment above, Entities are Yozi in your story, then Shards can make their hosts ignore any pecky "limits" just fine.

(Tbh, they can do it in canon too, but now I don't have to prove it to you)

MageOhki said:
Skitter's change from lump to runner from hell... 3 months, dedicated? Well within human norms.

Key word here is "dedicated". With normal training regime, with normal diet, with trainer to advice how you actually should do it - yes, definitely. But with only some morning runs, even if she did it every day? I see it as stretch. That's not impossible, but nor it plausible. So I suspect her Shard helped her with it.

MageOhki said:
1: It really is impossible to make it completely untraceable. Making it 'diffcult', and losing paths? Sure. Completely? Unless you operate completely by cash only, and cash only, and are only operating with people who do only the same, and own no property... and several other things, somewhere, the money will appear.

Ok, seems like we have some misunderstanding here. Mind to explain what you mean under "completely untraceable"?
I meant "completely untraceable for all practical purposes". I.e. they could, in theory, have some options, but those options are on the level of plausibility of "maybe aliens from the galaxy far, far away will come and do it for us". Maybe a little more, but not much.
Can they hire Contessa to do it? Possible in theory, but not on practice. Can they hire hackers to break into "Fuckoff Bank" databases? They can hire, sure. But can these hackers actually do it? Only in theory, if they'll hire someone who at least comparable with Number Man. And so on.

Sure, one day A money will appear somewhere. But not THE money. So - untraceable for all practical purposes.

MageOhki said:
2: Numberman showed exactly once again, in his interlude, *how it'd fail*.

Where? When he purposefully arranged things to fail for Nazis (who, btw, didn't used his services)? Yeah, great proof.

MageOhki said:
3: As for telling the IRS you brought X from Y, where Y is a criminal organization... for it to be a crime that the IRS can either report or act upon.
Two conditions must exist: A: it must be a direct lie to the IRS, and B: you attested to it.

Once again, the IRS has no authority and in fact is enjoined from reporting any crime but tax fraud and tax evasion related activities.

In other words, you have to break the laws regarding the IRS, first.

Have your own words, and try again:

MageOhki said:
since the IRS will unofficially say to the FBI...

.

MageOhki said:
It is not illegal to buy services or items from criminals, unless the service or item is illegal or stolen. Try again.

So, what make you think purchasing Tinkertech without PRT approval is not crime on Earch Bet? Our laws? Our laws not dealing with three decades of Worm-ness, nor superpowers.
Tinkertech may very well be illegal unless you have permission from PRT to own it.

MageOhki said:
Anything "Dodge" or the DBA Dodge is doing, then is seized.

"His laundry? Yes, you can have it, if you want. This? No, this is Tinkertech, and like anything related to parahumans, it under PRT jurisdiction. His money? We have no clue where it is. Seriously. If you can find it - you can have it, no problem. What, John Smith? Why do you think he's Dodge? Can you prove it? No? Then kindly fuck off from innocent citizen."

MageOhki said:
That's why Elite, Toybox, et al, pay their taxes for one.

"Unless in text it states he does so, I'm presuming he doesn't."

MageOhki said:
Those who sell and buy to those evading taxes, can be nailed (it's hard, but it has been done) for conspiracy and RICO regarding tax evasion. Most people are going to fucking avoid that.

For their civilian ID? Yes, sure. For their Cape ID? Nope. At least not in general. Because if you killed hundreds, or sold equivalent of dozens nuclear bombs, you will have much more problem than tax evasion, unless you can strike deal with PRT. And if you can, then tax evasion wouldn't be problem, because you'll get new Cape ID.

MageOhki said:
As for the Birdcage/Tinkers. Bakuda. QED.

And that'd be up to PRT to say who is safe to hontain in conventional prison, and who - to dangerous and should be put in Birdcage. Not IRS, nor anyone alse.

MageOhki said:
And then you say Toybox sells to the US goverment. That means they can't be true black market. Pick one, please.

I don't think so. Do you really believe government can't ignore laws when they want to (so long as they keep it quiet, of course)?
Btw, not Toybox, although I wouldn't be surprised to find they sold something of other to Protectorate/PRT/government at one point.

MageOhki said:
Either this is a terminology clash, or, once again, Wildbow not knowing what the hell he's talking about.

What Grey market is (at least as I was taught, and use it) is in precise: "extralegal economic activities" or "economic activities that are illegal done in a manner to exploit a loophole or a unthought of manner, or economic activities that are illegal, done illegally that the civil authorities choose not to interdict."

This is terminology clash indeed. Because as far as I know, "economic activities that are illegal, done illegally" is black market, no ifs or buts.

I suspect we have more misunderstanding here. Ok, let's say Elite want to pay taxes. How would they do it? They can't just drop bag with moneys on IRS office and be done with it. They aren't official organization. They don't, can't have any credentials, certifications or anything. So, they can't do it officially.
Did you meant the organizations that work as their storefronts. that do money laundering - to transfer it to their civilian IDs - pay their taxes? If so, you should've mention it, at least. Because I stated multyple times, that their civilian IDs,at least in general, most likely pay their taxes.
But they only need to launder money that they transfer to their civilian IDs. Not all their earnings.

Skelethin · Aug 19, 2022

Number Man is explicitly a Plot Device to Handwavium away any and all economy-related issues in Worm proper. That is his main point of even existing in the story.

He doesn't function so well when you don't just hand wave away all the details.

Gandalf_the_Dirty · Aug 19, 2022

Skelethin said:
He doesn't function so well when you don't just hand wave away all the details.

To be honest, that true to anything in Worm.

gale · Aug 19, 2022

Gandalf_the_Dirty said:
To be honest, that true to anything in Worm.

Endbringers and there we are a what was it? A galaxy in density?

MageOhki · Aug 20, 2022

Gandalf_the_Dirty said:
Sorry for late reply.

That not access issue - I'm myself gave two options how he could do it without owner's consent. No, problem here is plain, boring physic laws. Kurt here, in thirty second, set up twenty operations. Ten transfers for different accounts, and ten delayed returns. 1.5 second per operation. Not impossible? Maybe. But he did it remotely. No matter how fast your own PC may work, no matter how fast you can work yourself, there's time for signal from your PC to reach target's PC, then be processed, and then travel back.
So, yeah, not gonna happen without bending "physically possible" at least little.

Let's see, did I mention a link to SWIFT (ie, the international banking system), Yes, Yes I did. Computers in 2k, much less 2011 or *now* were fast enough to even over networks exceed human ability to perceive. I can think of 3 ways, off the top of my head not requiring Kurt to have additional powers not mentioned, to do what he did. This is of course, not presuming Wildbow just was sloppy on time.

Don't try again.

Therefore: Simple rule: if it's not in Text, it doesn't exist, is the default. Kurt has no additional powers listed, I don't care what you argue. If it's not written in Worm, in clear, it's at best inferred (and I despise that), and unless there's WoG I will not infer. And I've stated WoG is optional.

This comes to this point: No handwavium here. Wildbow consistently failed to detail out things he didn't want to do, and Kurt's a prime example Worse, I'll concede Wildbow didn't think things through (Let's not even talk about what the real conditions of Earth Bet should be losing Kyushu, Newfoundland, et al, just to give an example, much less parts of Switzerland, London (jesus Christ), The hammering NY took... want me to go on? The fact that Wildbow says an international banking network remains, is nearly impossible.

(FYI: Losing London as it was in canon, would gut the EU's banking networks to the point of near impossibility of recovery. NYC's damage would be bad, but not totally crippling, but there's only so much you can do, plus with the de facto loss of space communications, the damage Levvy does to telecom cables (has to) ... how in hell is the network even functioning at all.)

Indeed. You are absolutely right.
And since, as I learned from comment above, Entities are Yozi in your story, then Shards can make their hosts ignore any pecky "limits" just fine.
(Tbh, they can do it in canon too, but now I don't have to prove it to you)

WTF? No. Just no. Entities are not Yozi. If you learned that, you frankly read way too much into the comment I made

What I said, and the way it was to be taken: "Sol knows a few things, Autobot-Kun knows a few different things, the real truth is more than they know." Nothing more, NOTHING LESS. If that's difficult to understand... okay.

They aren't. Because, Yozi means: "surrendered Primordial." Nothing more, nothing less. Therefore, Entities, whatever they are, are not Yozis.

Pro tip: See above about inferences and what I don't like or do. They aren't Yozi because I have never said such. Nor are they Primordials. Haven't said that either.

I flat out stated, that Sol and Autobot *don't know the whole story*. They don't.

EVEN presuming they are Primordials, as such. Your statement is moot, because The shards of the Entity would (and at least functionally, even if they aren't exactly this) function as demons of various circles.

Who don't have the same powers or speed as Yozi (who aren't as fast as you think), and when working though humans are limited to the host's speed.

Don't try again. You are moving goalposts and or arguing to argue, and I'm getting *very* tired of it. As has been said, Wildbow did a lot of handwaving. I am not.

If you haven't quite figured out: Exalted are going to *break the setting* and that's intentional. if needs be? I'll kill Kurt's shard just because of you. And there won't be shit he can do... because Exalted break predictions, math, what have you.

Hell, I've already decided that Contessa is going to at least be crippled physically, if not outright killed, when the timing is right. Because she's dumb enough to rely too heavily on her shard, when her power is even more susceptible to Essence odds cooking than even Kurt's

Let me spell it out. Contessa, Coil's, Dinah's shards are advanced prediction engines, that to some degree ape what the Loom of Fate in Exalted does. Kurt's shard is a mathematical engine.

Essence use disrupts the odds and predictions, by doing things that can't be simulated.

And the Exalted host drives the Pattern Spiders nuts with their breaking of the Loom's prediction, you think something cobbled together to ape the Loom (built by the AutoBot Prime!) won't be?

Key word here is "dedicated". With normal training regime, with normal diet, with trainer to advice how you actually should do it - yes, definitely. But with only some morning runs, even if she did it every day? I see it as stretch. That's not impossible, but nor it plausible. So I suspect her Shard helped her with it.

So what? I know because A: I did it, at 27, in physical therapy, in pain (4 weeks for me, but I was fucking done with being unable to do what I did before) and B: I've seen others, as long as you pick a routine and stay dedicated to it, as in you follow it every day, you'll improve. Taylor has the added bonus of not being exceptionally overweight, picking a routine that functions well with her frame, being in a period where her body is growing and adapting rapidly, and 'fairly athletic' is actually a reasonable goal in six weeks, even without being a gym rat, much less three months.

Again, don't bother. I flat out tell you once, twice, thrice, Not in text, your suspicions are not relevant. Suspect all you want. It matters not.

Ok, seems like we have some misunderstanding here. Mind to explain what you mean under "completely untraceable"?
I meant "completely untraceable for all practical purposes". I.e. they could, in theory, have some options, but those options are on the level of plausibility of "maybe aliens from the galaxy far, far away will come and do it for us". Maybe a little more, but not much.

That is functionally completely untraceable. The thing is, he cannot do such. NOR IS IT MENTIONED IN CANON HE DOES.

Again, there is no word of god, no text in Worm that says he helps people to evade taxes.

Done, move on. Handwavium need not apply, suspicions or implications need not apply.

Can they hire Contessa to do it? Possible in theory, but not on practice. Can they hire hackers to break into "Fuckoff Bank" databases? They can hire, sure. But can these hackers actually do it? Only in theory, if they'll hire someone who at least comparable with Number Man. And so on.

Sure, one day A money will appear somewhere. But not THE money. So - untraceable for all practical purposes.

... you have no clue how IRS/Revenue what have you would view that, do you? They'd ask pointed questions where it came from. As KURT HIMSELF pointed out. Which you didn't challenge.

Yeah, we're done. At this point you're just arguing to argue, and not giving a shit about anything I said.

Protip, *I* have stated I'm a federal employee (Not with the IRS). However, one of my Aunts IS an IRS auditor. (Well, she retired in 2020). I do have a clue of what I speak.

And bluntly? 500k Euros? Just appearing? German Revenue Service (don't feel like looking it up) would have very very pointed audits immediately. As Kurt intended.

I said exactly how you stay out of the IRS's clutches, and the fact of the matter is, Kurt can't keep his clients out.

Once and again: "NO HANDWAIVIUM!" There are hard limits to parahuman powers. Accept it or not, at this point, I don't care.

This is almost *exactly* how they got Al Capone, remember? Money appeared, no 'traceable' source, no proof taxes were paid, and that was in the frigging twenties.

Where? When he purposefully arranged things to fail for Nazis (who, btw, didn't used his services)? Yeah, great proof.

Have your own words, and try again:

If you don't understand how the system works, which you clearly don't, or are showing you don't, for whatever reason, there's no point. Done.

.

So, what make you think purchasing Tinkertech without PRT approval is not crime on Earch Bet? Our laws? Our laws not dealing with three decades of Worm-ness, nor superpowers.
Tinkertech may very well be illegal unless you have permission from PRT to own it.

I can think of nine ways to have it as a non crime. Look, the law is all about loopholes. And they exist. If you can't accept that, move on. Is it illegal to rely on it for major services? Sure, I'll concede that. Is it illegal to mass produce and sell? Also buyable.

But there's too many loopholes in how law is written today, and the crew at Caldron wouldn't want to close every single one.
[qoute]
"His laundry? Yes, you can have it, if you want. This? No, this is Tinkertech, and like anything related to parahumans, it under PRT jurisdiction. His money? We have no clue where it is. Seriously. If you can find it - you can have it, no problem. What, John Smith? Why do you think he's Dodge? Can you prove it? No? Then kindly fuck off from innocent citizen."
[/quote]
Bullshit. Done. I don't care, if you think the IRS or others would tolerate losing their areas without major attacks, you're higher than a kite. Limits exist, and no one is going to piss of the IRS.

Here's a specific point of law: The IRS has absolute and primary jurisdiction over tax crimes involving the federal government, period, dot, the PRT can't do shit, I don't care. The IRS might involve the PRT as backup, but besides that? They remember who punched out Al Capone. It wasn't the FBI. It wasn't the Marshalls. It was THEM.

Don't like, don't agree, I don't care. As I've stated at least twice, I have worked for the federal government and are working for it. I know how it works, and what it is.

There are physical, hard, cold limits to what people can do, even backed up by powers. Even Exalted will have a hell of a time fixing the system.

And they got the charms to do so. Even if say, Colin dedicated a year to unfucking the PRT, he might not be finished in that year, much less the rest of the federal government.

(Pause to reboot computer, will edit to finish, fuck you IT...)
Resume:

"Unless in text it states he does so, I'm presuming he doesn't."

For their civilian ID? Yes, sure. For their Cape ID? Nope. At least not in general. Because if you killed hundreds, or sold equivalent of dozens nuclear bombs, you will have much more problem than tax evasion, unless you can strike deal with PRT. And if you can, then tax evasion wouldn't be problem, because you'll get new Cape ID.

And the moment they try to spend, transfer or use any money from their cape ID as a civilian, into their hands, *Boom* *done* The IRS has them. Again, this is how they got Al Capone.

No more. We *are done* arguing this, you clearly want things and powers that are not stated in canon, nor activities stated in canon.

Ain't happening, I'm the Quest master. You don't think that's right, go write your own story, run your own quest. I cannot please everyone, and I'm not even going to try. Sorry.

And that'd be up to PRT to say who is safe to hontain in conventional prison, and who - to dangerous and should be put in Birdcage. Not IRS, nor anyone alse.

You don't get how jurisdiction works, do you, in common law nations. It's not the criminal, that matters. It is the crime.

To be fair, that is a simplification of the actual system but, it is actually how it really does work. Or are you trying to tell me, the PRT has the jurisdiction over traffic tickets? Seriously?

In the case described in quest, where the IRS agents arrest (with PRT backup, to be fair), Max Anders, yes, custody will be remanded to the PRT, as correctional and holding pending trial authority.

Not as the agency with the authority to investigate crimes or refer for prosecution not using parahuman powers. The PRT would not have (in fact, Becky tries, she'd be slapped down so hard) any authority to prosecute crimes. Period, Dot, that's black letter law older than the United States.

If you can't accept that, there is no point.

I don't think so. Do you really believe government can't ignore laws when they want to (so long as they keep it quiet, of course)?

No, I know they do. Remember who I work for. However, the easiest way for them to do so, is write their own loophole in. Why break the law, when you can exclude yourself from it. Pretty common. Or, as the way I'm defining NEPEA, they can asset they're using the 'artwork' or 'experimental' loophole.

And there are other specific buying loopholes that exist in laws (I actually had to learn this, oddly enough...), that'd do it as well.

Btw, not Toybox, although I wouldn't be surprised to find they sold something of other to Protectorate/PRT/government at one point.

Was misinformed, then, but indepdents do sell.

This is terminology clash indeed. Because as far as I know, "economic activities that are illegal, done illegally" is black market, no ifs or buts.

Except... it gets quirky.

Law is that way. The thing is:
Black market: is illegal sales (of services or goods) done illegally, and that will be charged.
Grey market: is illegal sales that either are ignored, as a matter of course (Sugar Babies, remember?) OR are done in a manner that cannot be charged.

I'll give you a recent example. Rhode island. Did a sting on a strip club. Woman got off on the charge they tried to nail with her, because she didn't use the specific words of the statue.

Everyone knows what is what, but law is that way. Ergo grey market. Because it's a loophole.

I suspect we have more misunderstanding here. Ok, let's say Elite want to pay taxes. How would they do it? They can't just drop bag with moneys on IRS office and be done with it. They aren't official organization. They don't, can't have any credentials, certifications or anything. So, they can't do it officially.

That is where you're basically *wrong*.

Once again, you don't understand how the law works here. You can literally put down sex on your independent income form, as what you're selling, and the IRS as a matter of law, cannot report it to anyone else. (I wouldn't, the usual dodge is personal companionship, or entertainment services.)

The IRS explicitly has primary and overall jurisdiction over tax crimes, and only tax crimes, and lying on your tax form is perjury. But, because of that, The IRS is not supposed to report other criminal activities to the appros authority. (But depending on what you're saying, they just might do it under the table.)

So, basically... there's just giving a vague description that if you squint, will cover what you do.
Then there is the below.

Did you meant the organizations that work as their storefronts. that do money laundering - to transfer it to their civilian IDs - pay their taxes? If so, you should've mention it, at least. Because I stated multyple times, that their civilian IDs,at least in general, most likely pay their taxes.
But they only need to launder money that they transfer to their civilian IDs. Not all their earnings.

And that's not tax evasion. That's what I'm referring to all along. Form an S-class corp, keep what you say vague on the forms, do all your business though it, pay yourself out of it. Everything is kosher as far as the IRS is concerned. (Why do you think a lot of nightclubs are associated with the various OC, and why Casinos were as well?)
They'll also pay sales tax, property tax, etc.

What I've stated, all along, is Kurt provides money laundering services. Not Tax evasion.

It's really not worth his time to try.

Because if he loses one customer to that, they'll get more, and start really really looking. Tax Evasion is a PITA to successfully do. Laundering money, isn't the IRS' authority, oddly enough.
(International banking actually makes it worse to get away with tax evasion even early on...)

But, I've come to the conclusion that you want this to go your way, and I'm flat out telling you: No, just no, I'm the one writing this, I'm the one who has to make it work, and I'm not playing handwavium games.

Exalted rules win, for the fusion/crossover. And Kurt, Contessa, et al are not exalted.

Accept it or not.

gale said:
Endbringers and there we are a what was it? A galaxy in density?

>> That actually strangely enough works in Exalted.

Psyckosama · Aug 20, 2022

I'd like to add this...

No, the IRS will not go after capes.

They will however go after the cape's normal self.

No IRS agent is going to go after Kaiser, but if Max Anders suddenly had a million dollars more than he should then suddenly he's attracted the attention of some humorless men in black suits with calculators and if those men should just happen to come down with a sudden case of SWORDS... well...

He just fucking unmasked himself now didn't he?

About the only capes immune to the IRS we see in canon are the Teeth and the fucking Slaughterhouse 9.

I'd bet you dollars to fucking donuts even the fucking Fallen pay their taxes.

Gandalf_the_Dirty · Aug 20, 2022

MageOhki said:
Therefore: Simple rule: if it's not in Text, it doesn't exist, is the default.

Therefore, if it not in text that villains pay their taxes, then they don't. If it not in text that Kurt used backdoors or anything - then he didn't.
Therefore, I don't think we have anything to talk about at this point, when you simultaneously says "only canon text matters", and "I don't care what canon text says".

Good luck with your quest.

Psyckosama said:
No, the IRS will not go after capes.
They will however go after the cape's normal self.

Yep. Exactly what I said.

MageOhki · Aug 20, 2022

Gandalf_the_Dirty said:
Therefore, if it not in text that villains pay their taxes, then they don't. If it not in text that Kurt used backdoors or anything - then he didn't.
Therefore, I don't think we have anything to talk about at this point, when you simultaneously says "only canon text matters", and "I don't care what canon text says".

Good luck with your quest.

Yep. Exactly what I said.

Okay, I see your problem

You love twisting words. You love reading things into statements that don't exist. You love ignoring what people say, and adding what you do want them to say. I specifically stated: "If it's not in the text don't assume." You are A: twisting words, B: being a pedantic ass, and reading far more into canon than was written. That's you, not me.

I must presume that you are doing this intentionally to drive me away from writing, since you aren't voting. Ignore.

MageOhki · Aug 20, 2022

Oh. And my editior hasn't finished Editing, so sometime tomorrow the next post goes up.

Redemption Quest (Exalted/Worm) (Elements of Peggy Sue).

You shall not pass... on this opportunity!

Versed in the lewd.

You shall not pass... on this opportunity!

Well worn.

You shall not pass... on this opportunity!

The Devil Exists Within

Well worn.

Versed in the lewd.

Versed in the lewd.

Versed in the lewd.

Connoisseur.

You shall not pass... on this opportunity!

Well worn.

Well worn.

You shall not pass... on this opportunity!

You shall not pass... on this opportunity!

Versed in the lewd.

The Devil Exists Within

Well worn.

Versed in the lewd.

Versed in the lewd.

You shall not pass... on this opportunity!

The Archfriend

You shall not pass... on this opportunity!

Well worn.

Versed in the lewd.

Connoisseur.

You shall not pass... on this opportunity!

Versed in the lewd.

Versed in the lewd.

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