Rule 8. Politics. Gone. For good.

[Aleh]

Might want to avoid that part. Even satire and mocking can provoke people to respond to it, to defend their pet politics, so that is banned too.

Click to shrink...

I've said it before, no. No real current politics, even with a thin coat of fiction. If it can be recognized as such, then answer is no.

Click to shrink...

Aaaaand my concerns are right back.

No, really. They'd been largely addressed, but this again changes things.

Politics is everywhere in various ways. This has the effect of effectively banning pretty much any realistic depiction of life in modern times. That's a very bad thing for a fiction board, especially one specifically created to give us a place to write without having to police ourselves.

The average character will have political views and opinions about current issues. They will inform his or her behavior and relationships. Forbidding any involvement of politics is... beyond absurd. Yes, that includes the "current" codicil -- just for a simple example, imagine me trying to write a character getting pregnant under these rules, especially if they're not sure they want to keep the baby.

On top of this, it's becoming rather clear that the mods have no real agreement between them as to what this rule actually means. That means that enforcement will likely be inconsistent at best, and so the most expansive interpretations will effectively rule the day (plus, well, chilling effect).

Throw in the fact that the rule wasn't created in response to any sort of issue in the story threads, and you start to see why I increasingly think that it's an overbroad rule created as a kneejerk reaction to an admittedly real problem. I am increasingly reminded of an old legal maxim which applies here.

 

[Cherry Lover]

Have I missed all the contentious political fics? To my knowledge there aren't any fics on QQ, past or present, that are challenged by this ruling. My knowledge of QQ is hardly encyclopedic but I do read quite a lot of stuff here. Given the amount of criticism that has been raised I assume there are some fics that would be banned under the current ruling. If people link them then we can get the staff to demonstrate where the line actually is with real world examples.

I really hope there are some fics in that category, the idea that everyone suddenly wants to write a political fic just because they are banned would be disappointing.

Click to shrink...

It's not so much political fics as incidental political content in other fics. As Aleh says, "real current politics" could be interpreted to include basically anything in modern life, and it is not clear that the mods intend not to do so.

 

[ultima333]

The main purpose of Rule 8 is to reduce the huge shitstorms that came with it. As tehelgee has said before, QQ is a place for lewds and fun, not insulting each other based on political beliefs.

If it's politics in a fic, but absolutely no one is bothered by it, and no insults are flung, then really, there'd be no reason to invoke the rule. But because the userbase has proven to be unable to be civil and polite about it, the rule was created to clamp down on the topic, and to stop people from posting topics that will inevitably incite rage and unwanted behavior.

alethiophile has already spoken on this, as well:

As I said, this rule was not motivated by anything we've seen in fic threads.

We'll discuss instances on a case-by-case basis, but it's not that likely we'll be looking at fics unless they cause a problem. If a disruptive political discussion happens in the fic thread, and we determine the author was inviting it, that may be an infraction. If nothing bad happens, you don't need to worry about what political implications might possibly be read into the story -- as you note, it's not possible to remove all of these.

Don't deliberately court disruption, and there won't be an issue.

Click to shrink...

In summary: If there's no trouble caused by politics in fics, there's no problem. Only if there's a shitstorm caused by it or something, will it be reviewed, and the staff will ask the question "were the politics in this the cause of the flamewar/shitstorm/argument?" If the answer is no, then there's no issue with the fic.

 

[Conu]

Yes, that includes the "current" codicil -- just for a simple example, imagine me trying to write a character getting pregnant under these rules, especially if they're not sure they want to keep the baby.

Click to shrink...

It's not so much political fics as incidental political content in other fics. As Aleh says, "real current politics" could be interpreted to include basically anything in modern life, and it is not clear that the mods intend not to do so.

Click to shrink...

Instead of hypotheticals, how about we just ask if the staff has a problem with Oops ( NSFW https://forum.questionablequesting.com/threads/oops-worm-taylor-amy.3277/). A Worm fic where pregnancy and weed use, both topics debated in politics, are brought up. Also the most popular fic on QQ with more than 300 likes per post.

 

[Cherry Lover]

In summary: If there's no trouble caused by politics in fics, there's no problem. Only if there's a shitstorm caused by it or something, will it be reviewed, and the staff will ask the question "were the politics in this the cause of the flamewar/shitstorm/argument?" If the answer is no, then there's no issue with the fic.

Click to shrink...

This sounds worryingly like it could turn into "if you don't like a fic, you can start bitching about some political topic and get it removed". Aside from that, though, it seems fair enough. I just think you need to be very careful to avoid putting the blame on the author where it rightfully belongs on the person actually causing the shitstorm....

 

[ultima333]

This sounds worryingly like it could turn into "if you don't like a fic, you can start bitching about some political topic and get it removed". Aside from that, though, it seems fair enough. I just think you need to be very careful to avoid putting the blame on the author where it rightfully belongs on the person actually causing the shitstorm....

Click to shrink...

That's why I said the staff would review whether or not the fic was the cause of the argument.
If a user is trying to get a fic in trouble by bitching about politics, then they'll be the ones getting hit, not the fic's author.

 

[Aleh]

If there's no trouble caused by politics in fics, there's no problem.

Click to shrink...

... ohkay...

Only if there's a shitstorm caused by it or something, will it be reviewed, and the staff will ask the question "were the politics in this the cause of the flamewar/shitstorm/argument?"

Click to shrink...

Well, as noted, it doesn't have to be reviewed for the rule to be an issue. There's a reason I keep mentioning chilling effects.

Secondly, whether the politics were the cause of the flamewar/shitstorm/argument is a really, really poor criterion for this sort of thing. In almost all cases, the obvious answer will be yes: the political elements would at least be the argument's proximate cause. This gets back to the "chilling effect" thing -- making it effectively against the rules for someone to involve politics at all due to having to be concerned about other people's reactions to it.

So, in other words, this does nothing to reassure me.

 

[tehelgee]

So, in other words, this does nothing to reassure me.

Click to shrink...

I'm starting to think nothing will reassure you, because you seem to interpret everything in the worst possible way.

Current events =! current politics. If you intend to slap a thin coat of paint on Trump, Milo, Hillary, Bernie, etc, then try to call it sacrosanct because fiction... you're not gonna have a good time with Rule 8. If you want to write a story about a young female President of the United States having a harem of catbois... that's gonna be weird as fuck, but not fall under Rule 8.

I'm tired of arguing hypotheticals. Give specific examples.

 

[Aleh]

I'm tired of arguing hypotheticals. Give specific examples.

Click to shrink...

I have, with links at several points -- RHJunior's works, for instance, or this part of the Pokegirls backstory. I've also specifically described several plot elements (both backstory and future plot points) of a story I'm working on. None of those are hypothetical. Of them, only the Pokegirls backstory element has been addressed, and the standards have changed depending on which mod is answering.

That said, the hypotheticals are actually critically important. I don't have time to remember or search out examples of each issue I might want to explore -- thus things like my pregnant mother example.

 

[tehelgee]

I have, with links at several points -- RHJunior's works, for instance, or this part of the Pokegirls backstory. I've also specifically described several plot elements (both backstory and future plot points) of a story I'm working on. None of those are hypothetical. Of them, only the Pokegirls backstory element has been addressed, and the standards have changed depending on which mod is answering.

That said, the hypotheticals are actually critically important. I don't have time to remember or search out examples of each issue I might want to explore -- thus things like my pregnant mother example.

Click to shrink...

I'm familiar with Pokegirls, and there is nothing in it that falls afoul of Rule 8. The other link you gave me, other than being about MLP, has nothing wrong with it that I can see.

Let me ask you in turn: what makes you think either of your examples COULD have gone against Rule 8?

 

[Aleh]

Let me ask you in turn: what makes you think either of your examples COULD have gone against Rule 8?

Click to shrink...

Pokegirls deals with the aftermath of a feminist activist breaking into a mad scientist's lab and blackening his reputation in a manner markedly similar to modern webshaming. The fics routinely deal with dystopic sex relations, and two groups (the Limbec Pirates/Mao Shin Mao and the "extreme" elements of the league) are active, if incompetent, deconstructions of the extreme feminist and men's rights groups, respectively.

In RHJunior's case, he's politely describable as an extreme right-winger who routinely works versions of real-life conflicts into his stories -- either by having his characters describe how fucked up our world is (see Example One) or by making fantastic versions of them central to his conflicts (see Example Two).

So, to take a few of the more extreme examples, we have this from Chapter 18 of The Rise of Darth Vulcan:

"What sort of world produces a monster like you?" the guard pony said, staring at me.

"You wanna know what my world is like, huh, nancy?" I sneered. "You got it."

I opened my mouth and started talking. I started with the Holocaust, Goebbel's experiments, the gas chambers, lampshades of human skin. Worked my way through the Rape of Nanking, the worldwide slave trade, child pornography rings, Tianenmen Square, Jeffrey Dahmer, Saddam Hussein's favorite pastime with a plastic shredder...

He was pretty tough. I got halfway through describing a partial birth abortion before he started screaming.

Click to shrink...

And while detailing a plot arc would take too long, The Great Alicorn Hunt features one which deals explicitly with thinly varnished depictions of the disability rights movement, the deaf culture movement, college protest movements, college liberals, and so on. This gets... quite explicit, such as in this exchange in Chapter 48:

"--Advocating foolishly heroic efforts," she continued firmly, talking over him. "You are only upsetting the parents and making it more difficult for the children to accept their situation. You may mean well, but you don't know when to quit." She almost sounded sympathetic.

"The discussion is moot, anyway. We and the other senior members have decided to turn down your request for implementation of the new physical and thaumaturgical regimens suggested by our colleagues from Our Lady of Sunrise Hospital. Their work is... innovative. But much of it is just obvious showboating, stuff done to make a quick flash in the medical publications and with their financiers. And that sort of thing.... isn't in the best interests of the Clinic.

She and the other two got to their hooves. "We're going to make this request only once, Doctor. Stick to the approved treatments and therapy, and stop... filling your patients' heads with nonsense." As one they turned and marched single-file out of the room, only stopping briefly in startlement to bow to the Princess waiting outside the door.

Once they were gone she quietly edged inside. "Doctor Hospice?"

Hospice was still sitting at the table, staring at it's surface like he could see the future in the wood grain. "Your Highness," he said without looking up. "Welcome back."

Dash shrugged over her shoulder. "That last bit there was rough," she said. She cocked an eyebrow and waited for him to fill in the details.

"It's the.... new medical philosophy that's taking hold," he sighed. "Spearheaded by some of our local crop of Ivory Tower intellectuals, career students and Liberal Arts ninnies. A whole activist group dedicated to 'protecting the handicapped community.' Except their idea of 'protecting...' " He stopped and thumped his hoof on the table. "They don't want to cure physical handicaps or treat them-- they want to normalize them."

"Normalize?" Dash said.

"It's an idea taking hold in a lot of fields, Princess," he said, getting to his feet. "Psychology, psychiatry, health and nutrition, physical and mental disability... You can't tell a fat pony they're fat, that's 'fat shaming.' You can't say that a retarded pony is retarded, that's 'prejudice against the mentally challenged.' Crazy ponies aren't crazy, they're 'differently sane.' " He snorted. "You can't try and help the lame to walk or the flightless to take wing, because you're 'taking away their cultural identity. ' That would make them feel bad."

"Is this... really a thing?" Dash asked, disbelieving.

"Do you know what Body Integrity Identity Disorder is, your Highness?" he said. "It's a mental illness where someone who is perfectly healthy is obsessed with becoming blind, or deaf, or an amputee. So much so that they'll maim themselves, to try and feel 'complete.' "

"...I once had a patient, a young mare who was so fixated and obsessed with blindness that she poured bleach in her own eyes to make herself 'complete.'" Dash shuddered, horrified. "Well, she got her wish. Incurably blind. Surprise, surprise.

"I had another patient. Son of two deaf ponies, he was hearing impaired too, but not so much that a hearing aid gemstone wouldn't fix it. It's not even outpatient surgery to implant them... he could have had full hearing in a single day. But his parents refused to let him get the implants because he wouldn't be part of their deaf community anymore, they said. He's an adult now, but he still refuses to get the implants because of the brainwashing his parents gave him. He basically inherited BIID from his parents-- He thinks he'll be 'incomplete' if he lets the doctors make him whole.

"Tell me, Princess: is there any real, practical difference between the end result of those two stories?"

"We used to understand that if something was broken, you fixed it," he said, his tone becoming bewildered. "You didn't take it and tell it how wonderful it was to be broken. When did that start becoming sane?"

Click to shrink...

(This quote covers a number of things, but a good bit of it is a thinly-veiled discussion of the social and cultural models of disability and their alleged implications.)

Of course, these were just the first two examples that came to mind -- his habit is longstanding, and even shows up in his relatively well-known webcomics.

 

[Graypairofsocks]

I can't help it if people want to read what I'm saying differently than what the words say.

Maybe gibbousmoons can articulate it better than me.

Click to shrink...

Didn't you used to have more ribbons under your username?

 

[ultima333]

Didn't you used to have more ribbons under your username?

Click to shrink...

Subscriber and Donator ribbons have been replaced by changing the user's name color.
Since the color for Administrator overrides the colors for Donator and Subscriber, they don't show up and are basically hidden.

Read more about that update here.

 

[tehelgee]

Pokegirls deals with the aftermath of a feminist activist breaking into a mad scientist's lab and blackening his reputation in a manner markedly similar to modern webshaming. The fics routinely deal with dystopic sex relations, and two groups (the Limbec Pirates/Mao Shin Mao and the "extreme" elements of the league) are active, if incompetent, deconstructions of the extreme feminist and men's rights groups, respectively.

In RHJunior's case, he's politely describable as an extreme right-winger who routinely works versions of real-life conflicts into his stories -- either by having his characters describe how fucked up our world is (see Example One) or by making fantastic versions of them central to his conflicts (see Example Two).

So, to take a few of the more extreme examples, we have this from Chapter 18 of The Rise of Darth Vulcan:



And while detailing a plot arc would take too long, The Great Alicorn Hunt features one which deals explicitly with thinly varnished depictions of the disability rights movement, the deaf culture movement, college protest movements, college liberals, and so on. This gets... quite explicit, such as in this exchange in Chapter 48:



(This quote covers a number of things, but a good bit of it is a thinly-veiled discussion of the social and cultural models of disability and their alleged implications.)

Of course, these were just the first two examples that came to mind -- his habit is longstanding, and even shows up in his relatively well-known webcomics.

Click to shrink...

The Pokegirls example wouldn't be against Rule 8. Like I said, I'm familiar with that setting. I think I ran the first Pokegirls quest on the board. There's no current political stuff in it.

The other example, yeah, that would trip over Rule 8 because that's a lot of contentious current stuff. Also, those aren't so much fics as they are soapbox rants with a skin of fiction over them.

 

[Snake/Eater]

What about Battlestar Galactica? The show has politics relevant in the show as the President of the fleet and the Cylons are a stand in for religious extremism.

And I wanted to write a fic about this show before rule 8.

Random poster: "and nothing was really lost...."

 

[1986ctcel]

What about Battlestar Galactica? The show has politics relevant in the show as the President of the fleet and the Cylons are a stand in for religious extremism.

And I wanted to write a fic about this show before rule 8.

Random poster: "and nothing was really lost...."

Click to shrink...

Uh BSG doesn't have much religion beyond MORMONS! IN! SPEHSSS! The Cylons were more snarky terminators who reused plots from old westerns and war movies like the Guns of Navarone and........oh you meant the cruddy remake instead of the original.

 

[tehelgee]

What about Battlestar Galactica? The show has politics relevant in the show as the President of the fleet and the Cylons are a stand in for religious extremism.

And I wanted to write a fic about this show before rule 8.

Random poster: "and nothing was really lost...."

Click to shrink...

Did you not recall the example I gave a few posts ago about a fictional female President being okay to write about? If your President isn't recognizable as Trump/Hillary/Bernie/real person in current politics, then it will be okay.

You realize that seemingly everybody else gets the rule? I don't know if you're being willfully obtuse about it as a means of protest or not, but cut it out and use your head.

 

[january1may]

I think I've stated it pretty succinctly at the bottom of page 7: West Wing is fine (just), South Park is not, ask the mods for anything that comes in between.
Is that right, or did I misstate something again?

 

[Aleh]

The other example, yeah, that would trip over Rule 8 because that's a lot of contentious current stuff. Also, those aren't so much fics as they are soapbox rants with a skin of fiction over them.

Click to shrink...

I picked the most extreme excerpts out of more than a hundred chapters (between the two stories) to quote. I can assure you that the fics in question are both legitimate pieces of fiction. That said, there's a reason why I picked his works as examples.

Namely, while he doesn't comment on modern politicians or specific political events, he does comment on issues and movements. I'll have to take your statement as a resounding statement that yes, you are applying the rule to depictions of, well, movements and issues... which gets back into the whole point that characters exist within the context of social movements and have opinions about issues.

To step back a bit, however:

I'm starting to think nothing will reassure you, because you seem to interpret everything in the worst possible way.

Click to shrink...

The thing is, that's exactly how you interpret laws and rules when judging their quality or looking for issues -- potential or otherwise. You don't assume that the rule will only forbid what the people making it intend it to; you look at the problems it could cause.

You won't be the only person enforcing the rule, and even if you were, nobody's judgement is perfect. Every person who's doing so will have their own views, and their own interpretations, of it. Every person will make their own mistakes. This fuzziness gets worse when the "were the politics in this the cause of the flamewar/shitstorm/argument?" criterion is added in, as this means that I could be held accountable for what someone else does in response to my depiction of a character or a story event.

I've noted repeatedly that I think that the rule, as written, is poorly conceived and overly broad even as I've been getting at its boundaries. I suppose I should illustrate by subjecting it to an actual legal test... well, modified somewhat to deal with the fact that this is a forum and not an actual government, and we have a purpose for the forum rather than an actual constitution or the like.

When evaluating a law, the (American) courts use three types of tests, depending on the circumstances: the rational basis test, intermediate (or heightened) scrutiny, and strict scrutiny. The first is used most of the time. The second is used when a suspect classification and an equal protection claim is involved. The third is used when a fundamental right is implicated.

In a forum analogy, the second would apply when the rule is questioned as being unfair to a specific group. When the forum's very purpose is involved, the third would be the relevant test.

To pass strict scrutiny in court, a law must be three things:

1. It must be justified by a compelling interest.
2. It must be narrowly tailored to achieve the rule's goal or interest.
3. It must use the least restrictive means to achieve that interest.

Now, obviously these aren't requirements here. This is a forum, not a court. Still, it's as good a starting point as any.

I understand that the general clusterfucks you've been dealing with are enough to bog down the moderating teams and threaten the forum; thus I concede that your rule serves a compelling interest.

It is not, however, even remotely narrowly tailored. Simply put, your statements make it pretty damned clear that there's neither need nor extant cause to extend the rule into fics and quests themselves... which, as I've mentioned several times and provided examples about, is really thorny territory.

It's not the least restrictive means to achieve that goal either. While the above overbroadness is the reason why I regard the rule as bad, this is why I think it's a kneejerk response -- it, the multiple revisions since you posted the original version of the rule, the various often-differing interpretations in this thread, and the general fuzziness of the rule itsenf generally show a marked lack of thought and consideration.

And no, I don't mean thought and consideration about whether you should do this -- I believe you did put in that thought. I mean thought and consideration about what you should do and just what the new rule should be.

And I keep mentioning the "chilling effect" bit for a reason. People will avoid things that even touch on politics or political issues. You write to ask the mods... but people often don't do that and simply alter their plans instead. Having to ask the mods is a pain... and, as noted, the interpretations of the rule are somewhat... variable.

As things stand, I wouldn't be comfortable writing a teenage mother on this board -- they'd probably be considering or at least thinking about abortion, and abortion is very much a current political issue. I wouldn't be comfortable writing someone from a family of illegal immigrants. I wouldn't be... well, you get the idea.

I think that's a very bad thing for this forum, given its purpose.

 

[alethiophile]

Aleh:

This forum is not the US government. Nor do we have SV's fetish for lawyer role-play. Quoting standards from American law at us is not likely to do anything except annoy us.

Fundamentally, this forum, like all forums, is an autocracy. We endeavor to be reasonable, and it seems have generally succeeded. But by being a member of this forum at all, you are already trusting us to enforce the rules in a reasonable manner.

We are also not bound to setting down the letter of a law which will be interpreted by someone else. The people deciding how to apply Rule 8 in any particular case are the same people who instituted and formulated it. We will, in fact, endeavor to apply the rule in a manner that effectively fulfills its purpose while not catching harmless things.

Write your fic, whatever it may be. Don't write fics just as a way to sneak in political points. And if some problem appears, trust us to act like reasonable people. Don't extrapolate the rule to its most unreasonable possible application and assume we're going to do that. We aren't going to start blanket-banning worthwhile content because of one small part of it, even if we decide the author stepped over the line.

Most of all, stop nitpicking. This isn't a court, and you aren't a lawyer.

 

[gibbousmoons]

All this lawyer roleplay does is make me grumpy. There are rules. Follow the rules. If you can't understand a simple to understand rule after it's been explained multiple times then that's not our fault.

Or to be snippy because somebody started the lawyer RP and now I'm irritated, that sounds like a personal problem.

 

[Snake/Eater]

All this lawyer roleplay does is make me grumpy. There are rules. Follow the rules. If you can't understand a simple to understand rule after it's been explained multiple times then that's not our fault.

Or to be snippy because somebody started the lawyer RP and now I'm irritated, that sounds like a personal problem.

Click to shrink...

So does that mean the Mods are going to start a mafia Rp?

"It's a nice active status you got there, it would be a shame if something were to happen...."

Maybe you have a point and the rule Eighter Haters could be making a stink to troll you.

 

[Seru]

I believe the way our glorious admin phrased it, his intent is to treat the material like this:

10: Fic begins a shit storm.
20: Begin analysis on fic after silencing shit storm
30: Ascertain if the fic is 1. FICTION with a dash of POLITICS or 2. the Inverse
40: IF 1: hand out punishments to Users for being morons
50: IF 2: Punishments to Users and Writer for creating said problem.
60: Go To 10

 

[snthsnth]

I believe the way our glorious admin phrased it, his intent is to treat the material like this:

10: Fic begins a shit storm.
20: Begin analysis on fic after silencing shit storm
30: Ascertain if the fic is 1. FICTION with a dash of POLITICS or 2. the Inverse
40: IF 1: hand out punishments to Users for being morons
50: IF 2: Punishments to Users and Writer for creating said problem.
60: Go To 10

Click to shrink...

My understanding is that it would be: 30 Ascertain whether the fic is 1. Fiction with politics -or- 2. Political commentary disguised as fiction for the purpose of evading the ban on politics

 

[Seru]

I am trying to avoid an assumption of Malice in my flowchart. But that is also a valid reading of the information.

 

[Snake/Eater]

I am trying to avoid an assumption of Malice in my flowchart. But that is also a valid reading of the information.

Click to shrink...

But Malice from who, The Writer, The Mods or The Readers?

 

[Seru]

Any Malice. I do my best to embody the hypothetical Illuminati Death Bots that would be perfect Moderators if I provide information like this.

 

[snthsnth]

Any Malice. I do my best to embody the hypothetical Illuminati Death Bots that would be perfect Moderators if I provide information like this.

Click to shrink...

The issue with that is that the mods have pretty much directly said that malice is required. They are looking at intent, as far as politics in fiction.

 

[Seru]

Indeed. But I am taking the most benevolent view I can of the situation, which should hopefully be the most common occurrence of the issue.

 

[snthsnth]

Indeed. But I am taking the most benevolent view I can of the situation, which should hopefully be the most common occurrence of the issue.

Click to shrink...

That would actually be a more malevolent result. You could, under my interpretation, write a nBSG fic focusing on the politics of the twelve colonies, as the cylons infiltrate to destroy them. Under yours, that theoretical fic couldn't be written.

You flowchart is a blanket ban on real and fictional politics if the work focuses on them, while mine is banning only thinly veiled political speech, and it's clear about the distinction.