Uncle Quentin's Spy (Harry Potter/Buffy) (Complete)

Ack · Mar 20, 2015

Interesting developments.

Some typos:

She remembered Kit's lesson - dementors, for all their appearance, were as corporal as humans were.

corporeal (and probably lessons, not lesson)

And then, once they were done monsters then had stayed until the unnatural cold they were causing had killed the body.

the monsters

She hoped it was just a disguise, and not an indication of how the interiour looked like.

interior (and either 'what the interior looked like' or 'how the interior looked'.)

Hermione dragged him out of the room and was halfway down the hallways before she remembered that Harry knew where it was, and had to lead her.

hallway

It wasn't the full moon but even in human form that monster had superiour senses, and smelled or saw her right when she was leaving the side alley.

superior

Kit might admonish her for not using it sooner, she thought, but it might have made him go for his wand if he had done.

Maybe this should be 'if she had done'?

Starfox5 · Mar 20, 2015

Ack said:
Interesting developments.

Thanks! I corrected the typos. It was just one lesson - dementors are not that difficult to learn about, being rather simple, and as indicated by India's thoughts, they didn't know that much about them, yet.

alethiophile · Mar 23, 2015

This is a fun thing. Following with interest.

Starfox5 · Mar 27, 2015

Chapter 3: Trouble at Hogwarts

Quentin Travers looked at the the wizard strapped to a chair in front of him. Amycus Carrow was glaring at him, but gagged and bound and in a warded room without his wand. Even so the Slayer was standing at the prisoner's side, ready to intervene. One didn't grow to Quentin's age as a Watcher by taking unnecessary risks. Her Watcher was waiting on the other side, with the recording and interrogation equipment.

"Administer the serum."

The Slayer had the prisoner's head pulled back before Botwell, carrying a vial, had taken one step towards the captive. The Watcher pulled the plug out of the gag, leaving the ring gag holding Carrow's mouth open. The wizard started try to scream incoherently, but all present ignored it, and once Botwell had poured three drops on the wizard's tongue the noise stopped. Botwell checked Carrow's pupils, then nodded. "The serum has taken effect, Sir."

"Remove the gag." Quentin watched the younger man obey, dropping the drool-covered contraption on a tray, then focused on their captive.

"Are you Amycus Carrow?"

"Yes." The wizard spoke with a toneless voice and his eyes didn't focus on Quentin.

"Are you a follower of Voldemort?"

"Yes."

"Is your sister a follower of Voldemort as well?"

"Yes."

"Have you murdered any muggles?" Quentin hated using that distasteful name for normal humans, but one had to use words those wizards understood when interrogating them.

"Yes."

"Do you plan to murder more muggles?"

"Yes."

"Do you have any specific plans yet?"

"No."

"Do you know where Voldemort is living?"

"No."

Botwell readministered veritaserum twice during the interrogation, which took hours, but while Quentin managed to confirm a number of Death Eater identities given by Harry Potter, the captive didn't know where they lived - he only visited them by floo or apparition. It took dozens of questions just to find out where Carrow's own house was located - the man had no idea about geography. He did remember his crimes though. In detail.

"Gag him again!" Quentin ordered with a cold voice. "Call me once he has recovered his wits. I want him to be fully aware when I inform him of his sentence. And when it is carried out."

Quentin left the cell. It was a pity burning the wizard was too much of a bother, given their location and circumstances. Carrow certainly had earned such a death. A slow hanging would have to do.

*****

Molly Weasley was not a happy witch. Getting her children ready so they would make it to the Hogwarts Express in time was always a stressful ordeal. Doubly so in those trying times when she had to worry about Death Eaters preparing an ambush. That her family was currently not at the Burrow, but had spent the last weeks at No. 12 Grimmauld Place wasn't helping either. That house was full of dark items, curses, magical pests and who knows what else that family, or their deranged house elf, had collected over the years. Keeping her children, who were too curious for their own good, especially the twins, from getting into dangerous trouble in such a place had been a trying task for her.

Her original plan to keep the children busy with cleaning and other chores under adult supervision had been wrecked when Harry and Hermione had refused to clean, setting a bad example for her own children. They had been unbelievably rude! She had still tried to keep her children cleaning but after a few disastrous days she had had to abandon that. The resistance from everyone had just been too much.

Ron and Ginny, at least, had then been kept busy for a few days doing their homework, with the help of Hermione, but the twins… she had had no choice but to let Sirius fill their heads with tales from the Marauder's glory days at Hogwarts, to keep them from exploring the rest of the house before Dumbledore had sealed the most dangerous rooms. And that, of course, had meant she had been kept even busier afterwards, dealing with all the new prank ideas her twin terrors had been trying out on unsuspecting visitors and family members.

She still worried about those books Hermione and Harry were reading. Dumbledore had assured her they were safe, but... children should not read such disgusting books. Adults dealt with that. Aurors. No one else needed to know about that. Fortunately she had found a collection of Quidditch journals from the 18th century in the library for Ron, which had kept him from mischief.

But now September 1st had arrived, and the children would soon be off to Hogwarts, where they would be safe - relatively safe - and she would be able to relax some. She glanced at the kitchen table, where Harry and Hermione were sitting, trunks next to them, and smiled. If only her own children were as punctual. Ginny arrived, dragging her trunk behind her, probably scratching up the floor, but at the moment Molly didn't care. They were running out of time if Arthur was insisting on using the car to travel, instead of the floo.

"Ron! Fred! George! Hurry up, we need to go now!" she bellowed, then acted as if she had not noticed the three children in the kitchen grinning.

*****

The train ride to Hogwarts was different, Hermione noted. A sizeable number of the students were eyeing Harry as if he was as crazy as the Daily Prophet claimed he was whenever they saw him. At least they had some peace in their compartment, sitting with Ron, Ginny and her friend, Luna Lovegood. Luna was reading her father's magizoology magazine, the Quibbler, upside down, and apparently believed in all her father's articles. Given how untrustworthy the Daily Prophet had been proven to be, and how lacking Hogwarts' library was when it came to demons, Hermione was not inclined to dismiss Luna's claims out of hand. Besides, it was funny to watch Ginny's reaction at Luna and herself discussing mythical monsters.

"I still cannot believe you refused the Prefect position, Hermione." Ron's voice interrupted their discussion of the feeding habits of D'zrker demons. Hermione suppressed her annoyance at the interruption and turned her attention towards him. He sounded almost angry, though she didn't understand why. He was a Prefect, after all, together with Lavender Brown. He had been talking about her to Harry ever since he had returned from the prefect's meeting earlier.

"Spending so much time enforcing rules would have negative consequences for my grades." she answered primly. In truth spending her nights patrolling after curfew, herding students to class and back, and confiscating items Filch had banned seemed too petty, too meaningless for her, after she had found out about the Council's mission. How could she contemplate wasting her free time preventing pranks when others were risking their lives fighting demons?

"Does that mean you'll not be hounding us to do our homework this year?" Ron's expression looked like he couldn't decide if this was a good or bad thing.

"You wish." She smirked at him, which seemed to please him. She exchanged a puzzled look with Harry, who shrugged subtly.

The door to their compartment was pushed open at that moment, revealing Malfoy and his two "friends" Crabbe and Goyle. "Two Weasels, a loon and a mudblood. Fitting company for a deranged lunatic. Is it true you killed your family in a fit of anger?" The blonde boy was sneering.

Harry and Ron were standing and glaring. Hermione had remained sitting, but had drawn her wand behind her book. Hermione felt like hexing the bigot, but held back. He would run to Snape and that miserable excuse for a teacher would punish them all, no matter what lines his pet bigot had crossed when he taunted Harry with the death of his relatives.

"Shut up, Malfoy." Harry was trembling with rage and stepped up to Malfoy, staring into his eyes. He lowered his voice, almost whispering, but it carried through the compartment. "I found my relatives with their souls sucked out of them. Tortured to death in their home by inhuman fiends. I do not have any tolerance left for an evil little asshole like you. Get the fuck out or not even your pet teacher will be able to protect you."

Malfoy had staggered back, probably without realizing it, in the face of Harry's fury. He had gone paler than Hermione had thought possible, and was trembling with fear. "P-Potter! I-I'll not tolerate s-such t-threats! M-my father will hear of this!" he stammered before turning and walking away.

Hermione stood up and closed the door, then hugged Harry, who was still staring at the door. They remained like that for a moment, until she felt him relax some.

"Blimey, Harry. You scared him off." Ron sounded incredulous. "He'll be running right to Snape, I bet."

"Let him. I don't care about either anymore." Harry stated, then sat down with Hermione. She kept a hand on his shoulder. Knowing that whatever happened, they had a place in the Watcher's Council, had been a big change. No longer was Hogwarts the only place Harry could call home, no longer was Wizarding Britain the only future open to him. Or to her.

*****

"So, Potter. Threatening prefects now, are we? Not even your father was as arrogant as you are." Snape was his usual nasty self, but Harry was not as impressed as he would have been last year. He had seen Cedric Diggory die, had been tortured by Voldemort, had discovered his relatives' soulless husks. Getting bullied by this pitiful excuse for a teacher felt almost familiar to Harry. And the knowledge that he could leave if things went too far, could turn his back on Hogwarts without turning his back on magic, helped a lot to keep his temper. "20 points from Gryffindor."

Harry blinked - he had expected a detention as well. Malfoy, standing behind his Head of House, was surprised as well. He was tempted to ask if that was all, but held his tongue. He knew from years of experience that Snape was just waiting for any hint of protest, and not offering any would irk him more than any amount of words. Snape stared, but Harry simply waited.

"Get out of my sight!" the teacher snarled, then turned away, robes billowing with the movement. Harry stared at Malfoy, who hurried after his protector.

"Things never change here, do they?" Hermione sounded resigned rather than exasperated.

Harry nodded. Hermione changed the topic. "I wonder who will be our new defense teacher. maybe Dumbledore found a good one this year."

"We can only hope."

*****

As it turned out, their new teacher for Defense Against the Dark Arts was Dolores Umbridge. Former - or current, Harry wasn't exactly sure - undersecretary of the Minister for Magic. She hadn't impressed him much, at the feast, but he was determined not to judge a book by its cover. Even if she had been glaring at him several times during the evening.

"Good morning, class. I am Dolores Umbridge, your new teacher for Defense Against the Dark Arts. As I have found out my predecessors have been very lax in theory, so we will be focusing on theory this year, to make up for that. The book I have chosen to base my lessons on is an excellent, Ministry-approved resource and will serve you well in my class." She looked around, a fake smile on her face, then stared at Harry. "I will not tolerate unrest in my class, nor the spreading of rumors and lies to frighten students." Harry stared back at her until she looked away.

"Does everyone have the book in front of them?" The pink-clad witch asked in a shrilly voice. "Start reading the first chapter then. There will be a test on it next week."

Harry saw Hermione raising her hand. The teacher seemed to ignore her until she spoke up. "Professor Umbridge?"

"Yes dear?" The witch was smiling, but Harry had seen an expression of distaste flash over her face for an instant.

"I've read the book over the summer." Hermione stated. Harry knew she was fudging the truth a bit - she had read the book a day after they had bought it, a week before school started. After their prior booklist had been invalidated by a new teacher, or so the letters informing them of the change had explained. "It does not contain any information about the spells we should be learning this year." A fact she had complained loudly about at the time she had read the book. Harry hadn't bothered reading it, not after her summary. Useless drivel. "Which spells should we be practising?"

"Dear, I am here to teach you Defense Against the Dark Arts. The best defense is to trust in the Ministry. Our aurors will protect you from any danger, not that there is anything to fear." The woman's patronizing tone was obvious to everyone.

"Surely you can't mean that we will not be learning any spells!" The idea was ridiculous, Harry knew, and he spoke before he could restrain himself.

"Mister Potter, I have no tolerance for delusional liars."

Harry was about to call her a delusional fool, but kept his temper, barely. The witch obviously had it out for him, otherwise her insult wouldn't make any sense. At least several other students were now raising their hands. Voldemort returning was one thing, but the prospect of not learning the spells needed for their OWLs? That drove fear into his classmates.

"Professor, what about our OWLs?"

"Is this History of Defense, or do we learn spells?"

"Are we learning muggle defense?"

"Silence!" The pink witch was shouting, her face red. cowed, the students felt silent. Then Umbridge turned to Harry. "Mister Potter! I stated I would not tolerate unrest in class. You are responsible for this shameful behavior! Detention tomorrow evening!"

Harry was not the only gaping at the witch. She was worse than Snape!

*****

Professor Umbridge was waiting for Harry with an eager gleam in her eyes when he arrived for his detention. "Ah, Mister Potter. Almost late, I see. I would not expect anything else from such a habitual liar."

"Good evening Professor." Harry spit out, already straining to keep a lid on his temper. The ugly witch was very skilled at pushing his buttons. He managed to control himself, mostly because he had promised Hermione he'd do it. McGonagall had warned him that Umbridge was dangerous, but he hadn't taken that warning very seriously. He had faced Voldemort, after all, far more times than he wanted to think about. A fat witch in hideously ugly pink robes simply didn't rate that much in his opinion.

The two of them stared at each other for a moment, Umbridge smiling, Harry frowning. "Hand over your wand, Mister Potter. There will be no spellcasting during your detention." He handed his official wand over, glad for Hermione having insisted he'd carry his untraceable wand with him as well, hidden in a mokeskin holster mounted on his left wrist. He just did not feel safe in this witch's presence without a wand.

"Sit down, boy. You will write lines." She tapped at the blackboard, where she had written 'I will not tell lies' on. "A thousand times this. Maybe that will teach you to keep your filthy mouth from sprouting lies!"

Harry imagined the toad-like witch screaming under Voldemort's Crucio while he sat down. That would teach her to ignore reality and call him a liar. When he opened his bookbag though she stopped him. "You will be using this quill." and handed him a long, ornate quill and well as a stack of parchment.

Shrugging he started to look for an inkwell, but she stopped him again. "The quill will produce its own ink, Mister Potter. Now start writing." Glancing at her, he was taken aback. She was smiling at him with an almost crazed expression, filled with glee. Worse than Snape when he managed to actually catch him breaking a rule. Maybe McGonagall had been correct.

He started to write the first line, but stopped right after the first words when he felt a sudden pain in his hand and saw red lines appear on the back of his hand. With a gasp he realized that the quill was carving the lines he wrote into his skin, drawing blood.

"Don't stop, bow. You've got a thousand lines to write."

"With my blood?" He asked, rubbing his hand, which placed his fingers close to his wrist-holster with his borrowed wand.

"It'll teach you to stop lying."

The witch was a sadist, Harry realized. Or worse - the things one could do with one's blood, the things an enemy could do with his blood… the tomes Hermione and himself had read in the Council's library had been quite explicit how dangerous it was to let anyone get ahold of one's blood. Hermione would understand, he thought, while he drew his second wand.

He whipped up his wand faster and cast before the witch realized what he was doing. "Expelliarmus!" The force of the spell, powered by his own rage, ripped her wand out of her hand and threw her into the wall behind her with a sickening crack. He didn't care about what bones he had just broken and both stunned and bound her with two more spells, then went to fetch Hermione.

*****

Hermione was livid. Not at Harry, of course - not after he had explained why he had hurt and bound a teacher. To think a professor could sink so low as to torture a student and steal his blood… she shook her head. Both of them were on their way to McGonagall's office, Umbridge, still unconscious and bound and wrapped in Harry's cloak of invisibility floating behind them. They'd have gone straight to Dumbledore, if they had known his password.

McGonagall was in her office, busy grading homework already, when the two students entered. "Miss Granger... Mister Potter! Is your detention already over?" She asked, in a surprised tone.

"Yes, Professor. We need to talk to the Headmaster about Umbridge."

"That's Professor Umbridge, Mister Potter. And the Headmaster is busy. What have you done? I told you be careful around Professor Umbridge!"

Hermione was taken aback at the correction, and the anger from her Head of House, and her own temper rose. The Transfiguration teacher had been very disappointed when Hermione had refused the prefect's position, and had let her know that both with a letter during the vacations, and in person last evening. She had not been impressed though, and was less impressed now. What was the witch thinking, talking to her best friend like that when they had such a sadist as a professor? That horrid witch had been planning to torture her Harry, after all, and steal his blood for whatever dark ritual she was planning - Hermione could think of a few that would need his blood!

She noticed Harry growing angry, and before he could give McGonagall a piece of his mind she laid her hand on his shoulder to stop him. Their eyes met, and he nodded. While he took a few deep breaths to control his temper, she addressed their teacher with a cold, clipped tone.

"Professor McGonagall. If the Headmaster is not available to see us at once then Harry and I will leave the school at once. This concerns a grave crime, not some petty complaint." The young witch placed her hands on the old witch's desk, and stared right at her, chin pushed forward.

McGonagall was gasping at the audacity of her best student, but again Hermione was not impressed. She knew she was right and would not budge, not even an inch. Harry depended on her.

"Miss Granger! What are you saying?

"I am stating that if you are not leading us to and into the Headmaster's office right now, Harry and I will be quitting Hogwarts right now. Neither of us will be staying in a school with a teacher torturing a student and practising the Dark Arts."

That, finally, made the old witch cave in, though she was glaring at both of them while she led them to the Headmaster's office. "Chocolate Frogs."

The Headmaster's office had not changed since the last time Hermione had been there, which had been some time ago. Still cluttered with all sorts of mysterious items, old books and pieces of art, Fawkes peering at them from his perch, and the Headmaster frowning at the three from behind his desk.

"Minerva, I said I was not to be disturbed…" he trailed off, his eyebrows rising, and Hermione realized he had spotted the floating bound witch trailing behind them. She wondered what allowed him to see through Harry's cloak - the spells she had tried didn't work on it. "What have you done?"

"Prevented a crime." Hermione stated while she and Harry pulled the cloak off the witch. McGonagall gasped, holding her hand to her mouth at the sight of the battered, bound witch that was revealed. "She was torturing Harry, and stealing his blood." Hermione laid the quill they had taken on the desk. "With that dark item."

Harry showed his hand, faint red lines still visible. "She wanted to force me to write a thousand lines in my own blood, the words carved into my hand. I took her down when I realized what she was planning." Dumbledore looked at the hand, then at the quill while McGonagall was cursing under her breath in gaelic.

"This is a grave situation, Harry. you have attacked the undersecretary of the Minister for Magic. This will have consequences we may not be able to deal with. Cornelius and her have been waiting for such a reaction, to get a pretext to take more serious actions against you. You have just played into her hands." Dumbledore shook his head with regret as he chided Harry for defending himself.

Hermione would not take this. "Headmaster Dumbledore! She was torturing him and stealing his blood! Blood is a powerful substance, and used in many dark rituals. Such a vile witch getting her hands on Harry's blood cannot be allowed. Its far too dangerous!"

The Headmaster frowned. "You seem to know a lot about such rituals, Miss Granger."

"I know enough to realize that one's enemies should not get their hands on one's blood, Headmaster."

He didn't press the point. "Harry… the Minister will have you arrested. My own influence has waned, I might not be able to protect you."

"Then we'll leave Hogwarts before he hears about it." Harry stated, with complete conviction in the feasibility of his plan. Dumbledore sighed, shaking his head.

"Harry, if you run, you'll only make it worse. They will hunt you like Sirius."

"Let them hunt me."

"Us, Harry, us." Hermione wouldn't let her best friend face this alone. Besides, they would be safe at the Council. Study and train, and become Watchers.

"Do you really want to spend your life like Sirius, hunted and and hiding?" Dumbledore leaned forward, hands folded, and his gaze hard. Hermione looked into his eyes. "We won't be hiding. The Minister will not be able to touch us." Not without violating the treaty that was the foundation for the Statute of Secrecy.

Dumbledore jerked back as if he had been struck, and for a moment, they were treated to a rare sight - a baffled, utterly surprised Headmaster. But the moment was quickly gone, and the old wizard regained his composure. "I see you are serious. Then there is no other way than to… hide this incident. Professor Umbridge will be obliviated of this, and we will not speak about it."

"Unless she tries to torture Harry again, or anyone else."

"Miss Granger, this is a very delicate situation. We have to tread carefully, lest we push the Ministry into a course of action that will do half of Voldemort's work for him."

"We will not let this witch torture students. If Harry can easily subdue her, you can easily control her." Hermione was adamant in her conviction. They would not let others suffer just so the Headmaster would have an easier time handling those corrupt fools at the Ministry.

The Headmaster closed his eyes, then nodded. "I guess this is the only way to keep this situation from getting worse."

"Albus!"

"No, Minerva. The children are right. We cannot let such Madam Umbridge torture and maim our students. That's going too far." He looked at Harry and Hermione. "Return to your dorm, I'll handle the rest. She'll believe her plan has worked and Harry is now cowed into silence. You'll have to act the part, of course, Harry. And do not tell anyone about this, not even Mister Weasley."

Hermione exchanged a glance with Harry before both nodded and left the office, taking his cloak with them. They did not return to the Gryffindor dorm right away though, but went into an abandoned classroom to discuss the events.

"I wish we had interrogated her with veritaserum. We could have found out all her plans." Hermione had considered proposing that, but she didn't want the headmaster to know about her vial.

"We might still do that. Just a bit later." Harry sounded unconcerned. "I wonder why the Headmaster gave in so quickly. He must really want to keep us here."

"Do you think he knows about the Council? About our relations to it?" Hermione bit her lower lip again. She had been fired up, passion filling her, driving her on, but now, with the situation behind them, she started to doubt her actions and words.

"He certainly knows about the Council's existence, but I am not sure if he knows about your uncle being a Watcher."

"If he did it would explain some things though." She didn't know what Dumbledore would do about it, but she suspected he would not be happy about them becoming Watchers. "We'll have to be careful though. She might not be the only one wanting to hurt you."

"Wouldn't be a school year without someone wanting to kill me."

Hermione didn't know what to say to that, it was true after all. So she simply hugged Harry. The two remained like that for quite some time before returning to their dorm.

*****

The next day Umbridge kept smiling triumphantly at Harry during breakfast. Obviously the Headmaster's plan had worked. It galled Harry to act as if she had won. but he knew it was the best course of action. He didn't want to leave his fellow students at the mercy of that sadist, after all. She was just the type to hurt his friends if she couldn't get to him, at least in his opinion.

He still wished fervently the witch would get what she deserved. Too many evil people had escaped their just punishment in Wizarding Britain so far. Malfoy. Fudge. Pettigrew. All the Death Eaters named by Voldemort. Hermione had a list, and Umbridge earned a place on it.

McGonagall, looking less angry at the two of them than the day before, handed Harry a note after the transfiguration lesson that morning. The Headmaster wanted to talk to them during the first period of the afternoon. Hermione, reading over his shoulder, nodded. "Umbridge will be in in a lesson with the 6th years then."

The two rejoined Ron, who was waiting outside the classroom for them. Harry didn't want to keep this from Ron, but they had promised the Headmaster to keep it secret even from Ron. Maybe they'd talk in the afternoon about that as well.

*****

"What?" Hermione was sure she had to have misunderstood the Headmaster. he couldn't actually have proposed what she thought she had heard?

"Are you out of your mind?" Apparently he could. Unless Harry had been hearing things as well Dumbledore really had proposed that Snape should teach Harry and herself Occlumency.

"Harry, my Boy. Severus is the only one in Hogwarts that can teach you this. I trust him implicitly. Dumbledore was smiling.

"I do not trust him at all. He hates me, and he never misses an opportunity to insult and punish me, no matter what happened or what I did or did not. He is a foul, loathsome git, and someone I certainly will not let at my mind!" Harry stood with his hands on the desk of the Headmaster and was screaming at the old wizard.

Hermione was pondering the implications of what she head heard. There was a technique to protect one's mind against wizards trying to enter it. That implied that there was at least one technique or spell that allowed wizards to read one's thoughts. Dumbledore had said he wanted to make sure Harry was not influenced by Voldemort, but that was such a unique situation, occlumency wouldn't have been developed just for that. No, mind reading was likely not as rare as he had made it appear.

"Calm down, Harry. Miss Granger, do you see that Harry needs to learn this to protect his mind? It will also help him to control his emotions."

"Certainly Headmaster." Hermione answered. Harry shot her a hurt look, and she felt a stab of pain in her chest at his expression. "But that doesn't change the fact that Snape is the worst possible choice to teach Harry anything." Harry smiled at that and Hermione felt at ease again.

"Miss Granger. Severus has my trust."

"That's fine for you. But in four years, that man has proven that he cannot be trusted when it comes to Harry. He obviously hates him, for no rational reason at all. That alone would be enough to disqualify him, but he also has proven that he is a despicable human being. He torments his students, favors Slytherins and protects the worst bigots against punishments no matter what those cretins do to anyone. And he cannot teach at all. With the possible exception of our esteemed Divination professor, he is the worst teacher I have ever seen. We would make far more progress if you'd give us a book on the subject than if we let this sorry excuse for a professor abuse Harry again under the guise of teaching him. If you are unable to provide us a teacher that has not disqualified himself by his utterly unacceptable behaviour during the last four years, then we might need to look outside Hogwarts for instructions." Hermione had kept a lid on her temper and her voice controlled, but she was trembling with anger and passion.

Even the Headmaster seemed to have noticed, and again he sighed, nodding. "I'll arrange for another instructor, one you have not such… harsh opinions of."

"Pease clear it with us beforehand, Sir. It seems our opinions of what is a good trustworthy teacher are a bit too far apart to trust your judgement in this matter." Hermione smiled, but her eyes were still angry, and this time, Dumbledore too showed anger at her dig. It was petty, but Hermione didn't care, not at the moment. She was just too riled up by the Headmaster's blind faith in that disgusting wizard.

After they had left Dumbledore's office, Hermione was lifted off her feet and gathered in a hug by Harry. It was a surprising show of affection by her best friend - he rarely initiated such gestures himself. Hermione enjoyed it very much and held on to him even after he started to stumble a bit and let her down again.

They looked at each other, smiling.

"Hermi..."

"Harry…"

Both started to talk at the same time, and stopped at once. For a moment they stared at each other, smiling. They were so close, Hermione realized, not just physically. Not just now. He was her best friend, she knew that, but she wanted him to be more. And she didn't know if he felt the same. But she was a Gryffindor. Hermione licked her lips and gathered her courage, then grabbed Harry's head and pulled him towards her head, their lips meeting in a quick, inexperienced kiss.

Hermione was sure she was blushing like a tomato when they broke the kiss, and looked away. She suddenly feared how Harry would react, couldn't bear to look at him. Did he think she was silly to act like this? Or worse, did he feel disgusted by her sudden kiss?

She was about to work herself up into a frenzy of doubts and self-loathing when she felt a hand grip her chin, turn her head towards him, and then felt his lips on hers again, longer this time. When they broke the kiss again, her doubts had fled and she felt happier than ever.

Judging by the silly smile Harry wore, he felt the same.

*****

Kingsley Shacklebolt was tired from a long day of dealing with paperwork and other bureaucratic obstacles when he left his office. The Ministry was still refusing to admit that Voldemort was back, and Fudge's sycophants wasted no effort to make sure no one would do anything that even hinted at preparing for such an eventuality. Not even Amelia Bones, the leader of the DMLE, seemed to be able to do much at the moment.

He sighed, checking his watch - too late for a peaceful dinner at the Leaky Cauldron. It would be filled with the regulars now, and quite loud. But he could go and grab something in Muggle London. They had a far greater selection too, now that he thought of it. No butterbeer or pumpkin juice though - he couldn't understand that.

On the way to the Leaky Cauldron he suddenly felt as if someone was watching him. Grabbing his wand he looked around, but couldn't spot anyone suspicious. But in those trying times he was better safe than sorry. He ducked into a side alley to draw whoever might be following him out in the open. It wouldn't be a strike team of Death Eaters. They were trying to keep the wizarding public from realizing Voldemort was back, and wouldn't attack in Diagon Alley, where they might be seen and recognized. He could deal with a spy or stalker.

A few meters into the alley he turned, wand out, and waited. Instead of the surprised stalker he expected he was greeted with laughter though.

"That was a mistake, auror. A mistake that will cost you dearly." A woman's voice, amused, but with a cruel undertone. Supremely confident. He felt the sweat gather on his neck. He was one of the best aurors, he knew that.

Then a slender figure slid from the shadows and stood in the entrance of the alley, moonlight showing pale skin clad in tight leather clothes. Red eyes - a vampire! "Identify yourself!" Kingsley shouted. Laughter answered him, and the female vampire suddenly charged him.

The tall auror was ready for that though, and his wand spat a cone of fire that filled the entire alley. That wasn't the first vampire he had fought. When the fire disappeared though she was standing there, grinning. Untouched by his fire. Twirling something in her hand. With a sinking feeling he realized the vampire was carrying a wand. A witch turned vampire? There were only a few creatures like that, and all were extremely dangerous.

A red spell shot at him, and was met with his shield. He retaliated with a bone breaker, which the vampiress dodged easily with an inhumane leap. Her next spell shook the alley and sent shards of stone at him. His shield repelled them, but almost broke. He tried to apparate away, but failed - she had cast an anti-apparition jinx. A quick muttered word proved that his emergency portkey was useless as well. And she was between him and the exit of the alley. Behind him was a dead end. He couldn't escape, he had to fight. had to beat her. Or at least get past her.

Kingsley had to box her in, keep her from using her speed and strength. He transfigured the cobblestones at his feet into a wall that cut the alley into two. Another wall next to it formed two lanes, too narrow to dodge anything inside it. He started to run as he was forming a plane of stone to cover both against attacks from above. Five metres from the exit, from Diagon Alley, he cast a Bombarda at the front, in the hope of catching her where she was preparing to ambush him.

Before he could exit the alley he was tackled from behind with enough force to go through his shield and break his ribs. She had not waited at the front, but had circled around him, and entered the makeshift tunnel behind him. He was outmatched in strength, unable to defend himself or push the monster back. His wand arm was pushed aside, hammered at the ground until he had lost the grip on his wand, then he felt her bite into his throat, drinking his blood. Despite the pain and blood loss that made him feel light-headed he managed to shake the small cross he carried on a bracelet inside his left cuff out and press it against her head.

She jerked back with a scream and the smell of burning skin and hair, but then he felt the small cross get ripped out of his weakening fingers in response to a flick of her wand. It had gained him enough time to summon his own wand back though.

One hand pressed to his bleeding throat, growing weaker by the second, apparition and portkey jinxes preventing him from fleeing, he grinned at her, then raised his wand. He would not be turned. She was fast, but not fast enough to stop him before he blew his own head off with a reducto.

*****

Voldemort was in a good mood when he heard the report from Roselyn. Shacklebolt was dead. Dumbledore had lost one of his best combattants, and one of his most useful contacts in the Ministry. Snape's information about the auror members of the Order of the Phoenix had been as useful as expected. His old foe was now left with Mad-Eye Moody and Nymphadora Tonks. Moody would be too paranoid to be taken easily, but the same paranoia would make him less useful to Dumbledore, and less able to influence the Ministry. Not many of Moody's old friends were still active, or alive, and he would be loathe to trust anyone. Nymphadora Tonks… he'd save her for Bellatrix, once he had broken her and the other faithful out of Azkaban. His most loyal Lieutenant deserved the opportunity to remove the stain on her family's honor herself. Besides, she was just a junior auror, hardly of any consequence.

Chapter 4: Changing Plans

alethiophile · Mar 28, 2015

Hmm.

This feels off. In particular, it feels like it's rushing through the whole middle part, from Hogwarts Express through confronting Dumbledore about Snape; the fact that it's fanfic means that you can assume the reader has some familiarity with events, but so blatantly just hitting the high-tension bits, without any structure around it, makes the story feel like a skeleton. There were more things happening during this time period than just confrontations with Umbridge, and you've skipped over a whole several weeks (?) of time in only maybe a few thousand words.

Also, I think the characters are somewhat flanderized. It's minor but noticeable in the case of Malfoy and Snape, but that's tolerable. However, Dumbledore, McGonagall and (oddly enough) Umbridge all feel as if they're coming across wrong. In order: First, Umbridge was not quite so blatant about her agenda; she had more subtlety than to say "the best way to defend yourself is to let the Aurors protect you" outright, and she didn't bring up Harry's story re: Voldemort until he already had. She wouldn't go straight into calling him "delusional liar" when the only thing he had actually said in her class was about the class itself. Similarly, during the detention she should be less outright vitriolic, more fake-sweet. As you've written her, she couldn't even have successfully pretended to be a teacher for a whole year; she's too blatant about her non-teaching-related political agenda.

Second, McGonagall would not act this way. Her main failing with regard to her students (and this basically just applies to Harry's group in particular) is not taking them seriously enough, or believing them when they say something is urgent. Once it's been made clear to her what's going on, or at least the seriousness of it, she would immediately turn on Umbridge; even from the very beginning, she was not well-disposed toward her, and if her protective instincts were activated she would immediately be quite apocalyptically angry at Umbridge, and would not retain residual animosity toward the students for violating her authority or whatever. She's written here as too unresponsive and without her best qualities from canon. (In particular, once she had learned what Umbridge was doing, I quite expect that she would have been the one scrambling to cause her more pain, with Dumbledore having to restrain her — not the other way around, as you have it here.)

Dumbledore, meanwhile, is not bad in the broad strokes, but isn't successfully written as Dumbledore. The tone of speech is wrong, he changes position too quickly and blatantly when they disagree with him, and he isn't quite...Dumbledore-y enough. In canon, Dumbledore is always in control of whatever situation he finds himself in, no matter how dire. It isn't entirely unrealistic writing him as surprised when he (presumably) learns about the influence of an OCP such as the Watchers, but he needs to have handled it with more grace. If he wasn't fazed when they chased him out of the castle in canon, he wouldn't be fazed by this. (This is a hazard of trying to write characters such as Dumbledore; it's rather difficult to write characters with mental qualities that the author himself doesn't have.)

Most of the other nitpicks I noted are along the same lines, either 1. feeling rushed or 2. placing Harry and Hermione in contrived and unrealistic conflict with everyone, which they then win. It feels like it's drifting into the same sort of territory as classic bash-fic, in which characters who are even momentarily opposed to the protagonists are given a villainy upgrade and a competence downgrade. It's not nearly as bad as most things which fall for that failure mode, but I'm rather sensitized to that syndrome in general, it being so common in much of the HP fandom.

steamrick · Mar 28, 2015

Was Voldie getting Shacklebolt's name wrong deliberate?

Starfox5 · Mar 28, 2015

alethiophile said:
Hmm.

This feels off. In particular, it feels like it's rushing through the whole middle part, from Hogwarts Express through confronting Dumbledore about Snape; the fact that it's fanfic means that you can assume the reader has some familiarity with events, but so blatantly just hitting the high-tension bits, without any structure around it, makes the story feel like a skeleton. There were more things happening during this time period than just confrontations with Umbridge, and you've skipped over a whole several weeks (?) of time in only maybe a few thousand words.

According to the timeline, Harry was received his detention on September 2nd, to be served September 3rd. We're not even one week in Hogwarts.

alethiophile said:
Also, I think the characters are somewhat flanderized. It's minor but noticeable in the case of Malfoy and Snape, but that's tolerable. However, Dumbledore, McGonagall and (oddly enough) Umbridge all feel as if they're coming across wrong. In order: First, Umbridge was not quite so blatant about her agenda; she had more subtlety than to say "the best way to defend yourself is to let the Aurors protect you" outright, and she didn't bring up Harry's story re: Voldemort until he already had. She wouldn't go straight into calling him "delusional liar" when the only thing he had actually said in her class was about the class itself. Similarly, during the detention she should be less outright vitriolic, more fake-sweet. As you've written her, she couldn't even have successfully pretended to be a teacher for a whole year; she's too blatant about her non-teaching-related political agenda.

How did I flanderize Snape? He is a sorry excuse for a teacher who bullied children so badly, he became Neville's bogart. He torments and later tortures Harry for things Harry's father has done. I don't know how calling the scumbag out on that is flanderizing him. Malfoy is a stupid idiot who constantly lets his mouth write checks his wand cannot cover, and hides behind his father or Snape whenever something goes wrong for him - which is the usual outcome when he starts something. He was openly calling for the murder of muggleborns as a 12 year old.

I have Umbridge repeat the Ministry propaganda with regards to Harry - he has been called a delusional liar for weeks in the press now, even though he hasn't spoke to anyone in the press, or outside his family and the Order since he left school. I might rewrite the lesson a bit, but she is jumping at the bit to get her hands on him, and if he's not playing along then she'll make up something. Why would she need to be subtle if a brief talk with trusted, pureblood students would have told her that yes, it's all right to give Harry punishments and detentions even if he did nothing wrong, Snape is doing that all the time?

alethiophile said:
Second, McGonagall would not act this way. Her main failing with regard to her students (and this basically just applies to Harry's group in particular) is not taking them seriously enough, or believing them when they say something is urgent. Once it's been made clear to her what's going on, or at least the seriousness of it, she would immediately turn on Umbridge; even from the very beginning, she was not well-disposed toward her, and if her protective instincts were activated she would immediately be quite apocalyptically angry at Umbridge, and would not retain residual animosity toward the students for violating her authority or whatever. She's written here as too unresponsive and without her best qualities from canon. (In particular, once she had learned what Umbridge was doing, I quite expect that she would have been the one scrambling to cause her more pain, with Dumbledore having to restrain her — not the other way around, as you have it here.)

I am not sure where you get those protective instincts from. McGonagall didn't show any such in the books, she let Snape abuse Harry and Neville, and let the school bully Harry in 2nd and 4th year. Either she was blind, or neglecting her duties as a head of house, and as deputy headmistress. She only stood up to Umbridge at the end of the year, she didn't do anything about her torturing Harry or any other of her lions. Canonically, she was very hard on punishments, sending students into the forbidden forest and removing 50 points each for being out after curfew. Further, she pretty much follows Albus orders, who had given her strict orders not to let students get too close to him - he believes Umbridge is mainly after him, and would not go after children he has no contact with. In this scene though she had not seen the invisible bound Umbridge, and Hermione and Harry didn't present any proof, so yes, she was, like in canon, not taking them seriously until Hermione pulled out the "do this or we quit" line. I do not see her as attacking Umbridge when she was already unconscious and bound and wounded. Even if she wanted to cause her more pain, what would be the point when she doesn't feel it?

alethiophile said:
Dumbledore, meanwhile, is not bad in the broad strokes, but isn't successfully written as Dumbledore. The tone of speech is wrong, he changes position too quickly and blatantly when they disagree with him, and he isn't quite...Dumbledore-y enough. In canon, Dumbledore is always in control of whatever situation he finds himself in, no matter how dire. It isn't entirely unrealistic writing him as surprised when he (presumably) learns about the influence of an OCP such as the Watchers, but he needs to have handled it with more grace. If he wasn't fazed when they chased him out of the castle in canon, he wouldn't be fazed by this. (This is a hazard of trying to write characters such as Dumbledore; it's rather difficult to write characters with mental qualities that the author himself doesn't have.)

Dumbledore here read Hermione's mind, and found out about her Council ties. That pretty much showed him he is not in control anymore, which is a big shock to him. He did not expect that at all, and now is scrambling to respond. The Watchers are not a minor thing, their presence literally concerns the fate of the world according to prophecy. He did expect to be chased out of the castle - he surely had such contingency plans - but he didn't expect to find out that the Slayer is active, and watchers are meddling, and that the boy-who-lived has a standing offer to join the Watchers. Most of his plans concerning Harry just went out of the window (and I am not talking about "mold him into a sacrifice" or other stuff, just his plans to keep Harry safe. A Harry influenced by the Watchers will act very differently than a Harry mentored by Dumbledore, who has not the "kill it with fire, cut off his head" mentality when it comes to enemies.) Also, he might have just now realized just how much of a genius and how ruthless Hermione is (I don't see him as reading minds casually), and that will shake him up too since he underestimated her for years.

Though canon Dumbledore is not written well. He acts far too often as a stupid idiot instead of a wise, experienced wizard, just so kids can save the day. He is described as a very smart man, but his actions do not match that. He is, in short, turned into a plot device instead of a character too often to take him seriously without some changes.

alethiophile said:
Most of the other nitpicks I noted are along the same lines, either 1. feeling rushed or 2. placing Harry and Hermione in contrived and unrealistic conflict with everyone, which they then win. It feels like it's drifting into the same sort of territory as classic bash-fic, in which characters who are even momentarily opposed to the protagonists are given a villainy upgrade and a competence downgrade. It's not nearly as bad as most things which fall for that failure mode, but I'm rather sensitized to that syndrome in general, it being so common in much of the HP fandom.

What else is feeling rushed and placed into conflict? Umbridge is going after Harry, that was clear from the start. It is also clear that no, Harry and Hermione won't let her torture Harry, nor steal his blood (which, actually, wasn't happening. Hermione just is paranoid after her primer on "blood magic and why it's bad" from the Council, and Harry's on the same wavelength. So, no matter how subtle Umbridge was, once she used a blood quill, the only response they would be thinking of was treating her as a clear danger, and dealing with her. And that means the canon rails are broken. There won't be torture sessions for weeks while no one helps Harry and no one can reach Dumbledore to complain, or even thinks of complaining. Umbridge would not be left alone now, since the alternative - Harry and Hermione leaving for the Council - was far worse for Dumbledore. The boy-who-lived, and the brightest witch of her generation, working with witch-hunters and the Slayer while the Ministry is hunting them as criminals? That's a recipe for a disaster.

Also I am going for a competence upgrade for the villains. Voldemort here is actively using Snape to take out Order assets and push his agenda safely, not sitting on his butt. Dumbledore and the Order might need a competence upgrade too, his actions in book 5 were stupid and useless. I was pondering whether or not he'd even want to propose Snape as a teacher, seeing as no one sane would even consider that, but he does trust Snape far more than anyone else - another of his failings.

But odds are that faced with the threat of the Watchers messing things up and starting a war, he'll stop holding back and start to show who beat Grindelwald and why he is seen as the greatest wizard of his age.
Because honestly, if a single appearance by Voldemort in the Ministry in canon suddenly convinced everyone that Voldemort was back and restored Harry's and Dumbledore's reputation, then I don't see why he would be waiting for Tom to make an appearance in the DoM (that's the point of the guards there, they cannot stop Tom anyway, and no one else but Harry can even touch the prophecy) if Dumbledore can simply fake an appearance or two.

But, and this is important: Dumbledore is not the smartest character around, nor the one with all the answers. He is not as incompetent as in canon but far from knowing everything. The Council has archives that go back to the dawn of time, and much more experience in dealing with Dark Magic than Dumbledore.

steamrick said:
Was Voldie getting Shacklebolt's name wrong deliberate?

No, I keep writing Shackleton instead of Shacklebolt. Corrected.

Edit: Rereading the scene with Umbridge, it's quite clear it's their first lesson - she presents herself as their new defense teacher. So, no time skip there. She also does the "I require discipline" line to set boundaries new teachers usually do, though aimed at Harry. The answer to Hermione's question is less than subtle, but I am not sure she would be openly lying about her course goals, which do not include spell casting. She tried to be evasive, which didn't work well when faced with "I care about schoolwork and want to work ahead" Hermione. And then Harry's comment set off the panic about their OWLs, which caused unrest in class, which Umbridge blamed Harry for. Just like Snape usually blames Harry for anything that happens in school or his class.

alethiophile · Mar 28, 2015

Starfox5 said:
How did I flanderize Snape? He is a sorry excuse for a teacher who bullied children so badly, he became Neville's bogart. He torments and later tortures Harry for things Harry's father has done. I don't know how calling the scumbag out on that is flanderizing him. Malfoy is a stupid idiot who constantly lets his mouth write checks his wand cannot cover, and hides behind his father or Snape whenever something goes wrong for him - which is the usual outcome when he starts something. He was openly calling for the murder of muggleborns as a 12 year old.

Malfoy and Snape both had only bit appearances, so it wasn't that significant a thing. I think you're writing Malfoy too much to the stereotype, though. For one thing, I don't think he's ever used the literal line "My father will hear about this", or overtly threatened other students with political action by his father. (Boasted about his influence, sure, and pulled him in for stuff like Buckbeak. But this is somewhat different.)

Starfox5 said:
I have Umbridge repeat the Ministry propaganda with regards to Harry - he has been called a delusional liar for weeks in the press now, even though he hasn't spoke to anyone in the press, or outside his family and the Order since he left school. I might rewrite the lesson a bit, but she is jumping at the bit to get her hands on him, and if he's not playing along then she'll make up something. Why would she need to be subtle if a brief talk with trusted, pureblood students would have told her that yes, it's all right to give Harry punishments and detentions even if he did nothing wrong, Snape is doing that all the time?

Umbridge was very much not in league with Snape. I'll remind you that Snape was, throughout the entire story, on the good guys' side. An ass, yes, and an incompetent and nasty teacher, but never actually a traitor. And again, you're confusing a fanon flanderization for canon. Snape has a certain style about his interactions with Harry, and this is very much not it. Similarly, Umbridge had a style about how she went after Harry. It involved waiting for Harry to talk about Voldemort, then stomping on him with the Ministry line — not just immediately jumping to "YOU LIAR! DETENTION!" literally as soon as he's opened his mouth about anything. There's no evidence to suggest that she was motivated by a deep and personal desire to cause Harry specifically pain regardless of contingent circumstances; if he had shut up and gone along with the Ministry's line, she wouldn't have kept going after him. And since, in this story, he hasn't said anything about Voldemort, she similarly shouldn't be going after him as she did in canon. There, she retained plausible deniability at least; here, she's not even acting with agency, just like a robot who's stuck on "Attack Harry".

Starfox5 said:
Dumbledore here read Hermione's mind, and found out about her Council ties. That pretty much showed him he is not in control anymore, which is a big shock to him.

Granted he has reason to be surprised. He still needs to handle it better. He's a ridiculously powerful wizard, has basically run most of the world for the prior multiple decades up until months ago, and is something like a hundred and twenty years old. No matter how surprised he is, he won't be visibly taken off guard like this. (I consider this to mostly be a failure of prose writing rather than characterization; the broad strokes aren't bad.)

Starfox5 said:
What else is feeling rushed and placed into conflict? Umbridge is going after Harry, that was clear from the start. It is also clear that no, Harry and Hermione won't let her torture Harry, nor steal his blood (which, actually, wasn't happening. Hermione just is paranoid after her primer on "blood magic and why it's bad" from the Council, and Harry's on the same wavelength. So, no matter how subtle Umbridge was, once she used a blood quill, the only response they would be thinking of was treating her as a clear danger, and dealing with her. And that means the canon rails are broken. There won't be torture sessions for weeks while no one helps Harry and no one can reach Dumbledore to complain, or even thinks of complaining. Umbridge would not be left alone now, since the alternative - Harry and Hermione leaving for the Council - was far worse for Dumbledore. The boy-who-lived, and the brightest witch of her generation, working with witch-hunters and the Slayer while the Ministry is hunting them as criminals? That's a recipe for a disaster.

I don't really have a problem with the fundamental plot re: Umbridge. Her behavior just needs to be grounded in something like reality, as in canon. There, she pulls him in for detention after he publicly defies her and accuses the government of lying. Here, it's after...what? He states a single complaint about the class, in the middle of a flurry of others doing the same? It lacks the subtlety she showed in canon (what little of that there was).

Similarly, the train of events with McGonagall and Dumbledore isn't a problem. It's the way it's filled in. It's taking the standard fanon flanderization that turns them from real characters, with flaws and virtues which interact with the plot, into caricatures who only have flaws that the protagonists can berate them for. This confrontation can and should be really interesting, since it's setting the canon rails all asunder and far derailing the plans of everyone involved. But instead, it's just Harry and Hermione Being Right, while everyone else is reduced to People for them to Be Right At.

Starfox5 · Mar 28, 2015

alethiophile said:
Malfoy and Snape both had only bit appearances, so it wasn't that significant a thing. I think you're writing Malfoy too much to the stereotype, though. For one thing, I don't think he's ever used the literal line "My father will hear about this", or overtly threatened other students with political action by his father. (Boasted about his influence, sure, and pulled him in for stuff like Buckbeak. But this is somewhat different.)

This is the first time the Ministry has declared open season on Harry for months. Malfoy would feel far more powerful now.

alethiophile said:
Umbridge was very much not in league with Snape. I'll remind you that Snape was, throughout the entire story, on the good guys' side. An ass, yes, and an incompetent and nasty teacher, but never actually a traitor. And again, you're confusing a fanon flanderization for canon. Snape has a certain style about his interactions with Harry, and this is very much not it. Similarly, Umbridge had a style about how she went after Harry. It involved waiting for Harry to talk about Voldemort, then stomping on him with the Ministry line — not just immediately jumping to "YOU LIAR! DETENTION!" literally as soon as he's opened his mouth about anything. There's no evidence to suggest that she was motivated by a deep and personal desire to cause Harry specifically pain regardless of contingent circumstances; if he had shut up and gone along with the Ministry's line, she wouldn't have kept going after him. And since, in this story, he hasn't said anything about Voldemort, she similarly shouldn't be going after him as she did in canon. There, she retained plausible deniability at least; here, she's not even acting with agency, just like a robot who's stuck on "Attack Harry".

Umbridge is not in league with Snape, but if she asks a few Slytherins how Hogwarts is run and how Harry is treated, she'll hear from everyone what Snape is doing to the boy-who-lived and has been doing for years. Snape has belittled Harry for years. Has punished him for things that were not his fault, prodded him to make him lose his temper, and has always taken Malfoy's side no matter what happened. Snape may not be a traitor, but he has done more damage to the good guys than anyone else at this point, with him actively turning kids into Death Eaters by not punishing them when they bully and attack others, and contributing to everyone hating Slythering with his blatant cheating with points and protection of his cretins.

Also, Umbridge in canon sent dementors after Harry to kill him, even though he did not have any contact with anyone since he left Hogwarts and effectively, has been silent about Voldemort. No, she would not let him in peace if he went along with the party line, not until she is sure she has broken him. And as I pointed out in the edited part - she said she wanted a peaceful class, and now suddenly the students are revolting, panicing, after Harry said something about not learning spells. Enough of a plausible excuse - "school discipline, not politics" - for her to punish him.

alethiophile said:
Granted he has reason to be surprised. He still needs to handle it better. He's a ridiculously powerful wizard, has basically run most of the world for the prior multiple decades up until months ago, and is something like a hundred and twenty years old. No matter how surprised he is, he won't be visibly taken off guard like this. (I consider this to mostly be a failure of prose writing rather than characterization; the broad strokes aren't bad.)

Sorry, I do not buy into fanon Dumbledore. In canon he was removed from all his posts by Malfoy's gold in a month or so. That's not a wizard who has run the world for decades and built up favors and influence. If he had been as powerful as you claim he would have nipped this into the bud and crushed Fudge and Malfoy both, probably before they became a problem. Or he'd have made Fudge into his puppet and controlled him instead of letting Malfoy sway him. And a quick look at his actions in canon shows he is not nearly as wise and competent as you claim either. That is because he was not a character for those, but a plot device. But I am not retconning all his stupid mistakes with Harry in this story - that's what I am doing in Patron, to make Dumbledore actually closer to as wise as he should be. So, there was no abused Harry there, no evil Dursleys, no bullied Harry, nor Dumbledore leaving childish traps for Voldemort. Here though we have the Dumbledore who bungled up so much and was blindsided by Malfoy and Fudge. And yes, he was shocked. He did not even consider the Watchers getting involved, they have not been involved for decades. The stakes just went up a lot. It's like hunting for drugs in a basement, and discovering a nuke.

alethiophile said:
I don't really have a problem with the fundamental plot re: Umbridge. Her behavior just needs to be grounded in something like reality, as in canon. There, she pulls him in for detention after he publicly defies her and accuses the government of lying. Here, it's after...what? He states a single complaint about the class, in the middle of a flurry of others doing the same? It lacks the subtlety she showed in canon (what little of that there was).

As I said, she puts him into detention for disrupting the class with his claims they'd not learn spells. Right after she said she'd not tolerate unrest. Good enough as an excuse in my opinion, and even less political than in canon.

alethiophile said:
Similarly, the train of events with McGonagall and Dumbledore isn't a problem. It's the way it's filled in. It's taking the standard fanon flanderization that turns them from real characters, with flaws and virtues which interact with the plot, into caricatures who only have flaws that the protagonists can berate them for. This confrontation can and should be really interesting, since it's setting the canon rails all asunder and far derailing the plans of everyone involved. But instead, it's just Harry and Hermione Being Right, while everyone else is reduced to People for them to Be Right At.

Sorry to correct you, but McGonagall and Dumbledore were caricatures in canon, ruined by the need to make them stupid to allow kids to save the day. Here I have taken their canon stance - let Umbridge be and hope she does not do anything bad. Hermione isn't actually right, as I said, since Umbridge wasn't planning some dark blood magic, but her and Harry's actions are forcing Dumbledore's hand. He is not shown to be wrong per se, but due to circumstances, his options are very limited right now. Harry and Hermione made a mess, and the least damaging way out is to take care of Umbridge. If he had known about Umbridge's plans, and Harry's reaction - in canon, Harry let himself be tortured, something that is not the case here - he'd have acted differently.

When I am writing, I am always using the point of view of the character in question, and their views are not my own. Most of them think they are right and the others are wrong.

macdjord · Mar 28, 2015

Starfox5 said:
I have Umbridge repeat the Ministry propaganda with regards to Harry - he has been called a delusional liar for weeks in the press now, even though he hasn't spoke to anyone in the press, or outside his family and the Order since he left school. I might rewrite the lesson a bit, but she is jumping at the bit to get her hands on him, and if he's not playing along then she'll make up something. Why would she need to be subtle if a brief talk with trusted, pureblood students would have told her that yes, it's all right to give Harry punishments and detentions even if he did nothing wrong, Snape is doing that all the time?

I'm with alethiophile on this. She simply isn't this blatant in canon. The fact that Harry didn't give her an opening should mean that event slow down, not that she steps up to compensate.

Starfox5 said:
she let Snape abuse Harry and Neville

My impression of that was that she had been at loggerheads with Snape over his obvious biases and misbehaviour for a long time, but, since they were both of equal rank, there was nothing she could do about it as long as Dumbledore didn't act on her complaints.

Starfox5 said:
let the school bully Harry in 2nd and 4th year. Either she was blind, or neglecting her duties as a head of house, and as deputy headmistress.

I'm not really sure what you think she should have done about that. It's not in her power to make students like him or treat him well, and there wasn't really much being done to him that was against the rules.

Starfox5 said:
She only stood up to Umbridge at the end of the year, she didn't do anything about her torturing Harry or any other of her lions.

IIRC, she didn't actually know about the Blood Quill, at least not until later. She assumed that they were merely complaining about Umbitch being generally horrid and openly biased, which there was really nothing she could do about and was under orders not to make waves about. Later, when she did learn about it, Umbridge was already consolidating her power over the school - anything McGonnigal could have done about it then would only have given Umbridge an excuse to replace her, thus making things worse.

Starfox5 said:
sending students into the forbidden forest and removing 50 points each for being out after curfew.

I got the impression most of that was because Ron talked back to her, rather than for the original crime. He implied she couldn't or shouldn't punish them because they were in her own house; instead she assigned an especially tough punishment to make it clear that she, unlike, say, Snape, would not favour her own house.

Starfox5 said:
Further, she pretty much follows Albus orders, who had given her strict orders not to let students get too close to him - he believes Umbridge is mainly after him, and would not go after children he has no contact with. In this scene though she had not seen the invisible bound Umbridge, and Hermione and Harry didn't present any proof, so yes, she was, like in canon, not taking them seriously until Hermione pulled out the "do this or we quit" line.

True, though I like to think she'd have listened as soon as they mentioned that they were there about a crime, rather than just a complaint.
More relevant, though, is her attitude after the whole story is out. You mention that when she gives them that note, she looks 'less angry' (which imples she still looks somewhat angry). Is that supposed to be anger at Umbridge? If so, fine, but you might want to edit it to make that clearer. But it seems like maybe she's still angry at them, and that would be an unfair characterization for her.

Starfox5 said:
What else is feeling rushed and placed into conflict?

I think it's mostly just the total absence of anything but the conflict. The books had lots of low-tension plot- and character-building moments interspersed between the moments of conflict; omitting that makes the conflict feel compressed even though, in calendar days, it's taking the same amount of time.

Starfox5 said:
but he does trust Snape far more than anyone else - another of his failings.

Er, what? Snape is a petty bastard and a horrible human being, but in the end he was on their side. He killed someone he respected, spent a year in the enemy camp with every one of his true allies sincerely gunning for his head, then engaged in a suicidal attack on Voldemort - all on Dumbledore's orders. For all Dumbledore's foolish hopes and rose-tinted glasses towards Snape, his trust was not misplaced.

Starfox5 · Mar 28, 2015

macdjord said:
I'm with alethiophile on this. She simply isn't this blatant in canon. The fact that Harry didn't give her an opening should mean that event slow down, not that she steps up to compensate.

Again, Harry did give her an opening by - appearing to be - causing unrest among the students in her class with his blurted out claims that they'd not be learning spells. She can honestly claim he is lying about that and causing unrest, right after she told them she'd no tolerate that.

macdjord said:
My impression of that was that she had been at loggerheads with Snape over his obvious biases and misbehaviour for a long time, but, since they were both of equal rank, there was nothing she could do about it as long as Dumbledore didn't act on her complaints.

She was the deputy Headmistress. If that's equal rank to a teacher, then something's wrong. In any case, Snape was perfectly able to protect his bullies from serious punishment. She could have stepped in and done the same for her innocent lions.

macdjord said:
I'm not really sure what you think she should have done about that. It's not in her power to make students like him or treat him well, and there wasn't really much being done to him that was against the rules.

She could have made it clear that he was not guilty of cheating or being the heir of Slytherin. She cannot make the students like him, but she can counteract the rumors spreading.

macdjord said:
I got the impression most of that was because Ron talked back to her, rather than for the original crime. He implied she couldn't or shouldn't punish them because they were in her own house; instead she assigned an especially tough punishment to make it clear that she, unlike, say, Snape, would not favour her own house.

Or she simply doesn't like students talking back or making demands. In any case, her punishment was insane.

macdjord said:
True, though I like to think she'd have listened as soon as they mentioned that they were there about a crime, rather than just a complaint.
More relevant, though, is her attitude after the whole story is out. You mention that when she gives them that note, she looks 'less angry' (which imples she still looks somewhat angry). Is that supposed to be anger at Umbridge? If so, fine, but you might want to edit it to make that clearer. But it seems like maybe she's still angry at them, and that would be an unfair characterization for her.

She is still angry at the two kids for messing up so much. Dumbledore's thoughts on the matter will likely explain that a bit more. But Harry and Hermione basically forced Dumbledore and herself into becoming criminals by mind-controlling Umbridge. That's not something she is forgetting easily, even though she realizes the two didn't plan to do that.

macdjord said:
I think it's mostly just the total absence of anything but the conflict. The books had lots of low-tension plot- and character-building moments interspersed between the moments of conflict; omitting that makes the conflict feel compressed even though, in calendar days, it's taking the same amount of time.

There should be more slower scenes coming again. But overall, the story will be faster than canon.

macdjord said:
Er, what? Snape is a petty bastard and a horrible human being, but in the end he was on their side. He killed someone he respected, spent a year in the enemy camp with every one of his true allies sincerely gunning for his head, then engaged in a suicidal attack on Voldemort - all on Dumbledore's orders. For all Dumbledore's foolish hopes and rose-tinted glasses towards Snape, his trust was not misplaced.

Snape is, in my opinion, someone who hates everybody, including himself. He simply hates Voldemort more than anyone else. That doesn't change the fact that as a spy he was horrible, and as a teacher, he did more harm than good - far more harm - and as a human being, he was a failure. Dumbledore was right to trust his allegiance and loyalty, but his failure was trusting in Snape's competence.

This Snape though is different, and while he wants to see Voldemort dead, he would like to see a number of his enemies die as well. Like Sirius and Remus, for example. He is a man warped by his hatred, not a hero, nor even an anti-hero. The Snape that willingly joined a terrorist group who wanted to kill his only friend for being born never changed much here, he simply re-prioritized his goals.

Starfox5 · Mar 28, 2015

I edited Umbridge's last line in class to make it clearer what her pretext to persecute Harry is.

alethiophile · Mar 28, 2015

The edit makes Umbridge's behavior in class better. I think she's still off-tone during the detention; as I said, at this point she's less "vitriolic" and more "false-sweet". She doesn't get pushed into that kind of demented raving until far later on. Doesn't really affect the events, though.

preier · Mar 29, 2015

hmm. yes umbridge is more rushed here.
could be explained by the consequences of actual proofs of the dementor attacks?
she may have had to spend much time/effort here to keep the heat on harry.

macdjord said:
Er, what? Snape is a petty bastard and a horrible human being, but in the end he was on their side.

Really? then please spare me from such allies. from third book on, whatever rowling may have said/intended, snape's
actions and inactions paint quite another picture. oh, he wanted voldemort dead, that's true. but the enemy of my enemy
is NOT my friend.

not liking the ubervampwitch very much given the similitude to a meme i hate that goes frodo/lightsaber/sauron/deathstar.

Ack · Mar 29, 2015

Something that people may be not paying attention to here is the fact that people react differently to different stimuli. Different things are happening in this fic than happened in canon. Perhaps the Ministry feels more pressure to shut people up about Voldemort being back?

I will state now that I am enjoying the fic, and do not consider the characters to be acting unusually.

Starfox5 · Mar 29, 2015

preier said:
hmm. yes umbridge is more rushed here.
could be explained by the consequences of actual proofs of the dementor attacks?
she may have had to spend much time/effort here to keep the heat on harry.

Well, as I see it, she already tried to kill Harry without any good reason other than "he might say something sometime in the future". That's not the action of a rational woman, nor a subtle one.

preier said:
Really? then please spare me from such allies. from third book on, whatever rowling may have said/intended, snape's
actions and inactions paint quite another picture. oh, he wanted voldemort dead, that's true. but the enemy of my enemy
is NOT my friend.

Yeah. People keep calling him a spy, but in canon, we never see his spying amount to much until the farce in book 7. We do not see Order teams taking out Death Eaters he has identified, we do not see Death Eater strikes running into ambushes, we do not see Voldemort's plans foiled. Snape's more like a sleeper agent who was waiting far too long to be activated, and whose actions that actually mattered (giving the trio the sword of Gryffindor) could have been duplicated by anyone else, and would have been totally unnecessary if Dumbledore had not been too damn stupid to give Harry the sword and all the information he needed before he died, instead of passing information hidden in cryptic clues through Ministry scrutiny after his death. After all, the Ministry wouldn't have been able to meddle with anything he gave away while still living. As a spy, Snape was a total failure.

preier said:
not liking the ubervampwitch very much given the similitude to a meme i hate that goes frodo/lightsaber/sauron/deathstar.

Roselyn is not a Death Star. She may seem to be powerful, but both Dumbledore and Voldemort would be able to defeat her with ease. The main thing she has going for her compared to a "normal" witch is vampire speed and strength, and that can be countered by teamwork. Problem is, not many wizards have such team work.

Ack said:
Something that people may be not paying attention to here is the fact that people react differently to different stimuli. Different things are happening in this fic than happened in canon. Perhaps the Ministry feels more pressure to shut people up about Voldemort being back?

I will state now that I am enjoying the fic, and do not consider the characters to be acting unusually.

Thanks. I do not like to follow canon too closely, especially when it concerns the last three books. I feel just about all characters were ruined there, reduced to plot devices in many cases, without any consideration given to their development in the earlier books.

macdjord · Mar 29, 2015

Starfox5 said:
Well, as I see it, she already tried to kill Harry without any good reason other than "he might say something sometime in the future". That's not the action of a rational woman, nor a subtle one.

She tried to have him assassinated in an indirect, difficult to trace way.

Starfox5 said:
We do not see Order teams taking out Death Eaters he has identified, we do not see Death Eater strikes running into ambushes, we do not see Voldemort's plans foiled.

Correct. We do not see them doing this. But then, we don;t see them doing anything except guard the prophecy, guard Harry, and extract Harry from the Dursleys'. And we only learn about those because Harry was directly involved. Some people interpet this as them being utterly usefless, but I prefer to interpret this as them doing lots of useful things to combat the Death Eaters - they just aren't telling the children about it.

Starfox5 said:
Snape's more like a sleeper agent who was waiting far too long to be activated, and whose actions that actually mattered (giving the trio the sword of Gryffindor) could have been duplicated by anyone else,

No, there's one thing no one else could have done: taken over Hogwarts after the Ministry fell. Hogwarts under him was horrible - he had to keep up appearances

Starfox5 · Mar 29, 2015

macdjord said:
She tried to have him assassinated in an indirect, difficult to trace way.

She still tried to kill a boy just to make sure he would not, at some point in the future, speak out against the minister. That's insane.

macdjord said:
Correct. We do not see them doing this. But then, we don;t see them doing anything except guard the prophecy, guard Harry, and extract Harry from the Dursleys'. And we only learn about those because Harry was directly involved. Some people interpet this as them being utterly usefless, but I prefer to interpret this as them doing lots of useful things to combat the Death Eaters - they just aren't telling the children about it.

The mere fact that Malfoy and the others who were identified by Harry at the resurrection ritual are still free, and alive at the end of book 5 proves that the Order didn't do anything useful. Taking out those could have been done without endangering Snape even, since Harry knew their names. It wouldn't have hurt anyone either, to tell Harry "Hey, those you named, we took them out. Good work."

macdjord said:
No, there's one thing no one else could have done: taken over Hogwarts after the Ministry fell. Hogwarts under him was horrible - he had to keep up appearances

If Snape had been used properly, no one would have taken Hogwarts over because the Death Eaters would have lost before that happened. Voldemort might have been still alive, but his supporters would have been gone, leaving him pretty much a lone terrorist, and much less of a threat.

preier · Mar 29, 2015

macdjord said:
No, there's one thing no one else could have done: taken over Hogwarts after the Ministry fell. Hogwarts under him was horrible - he had to keep up appearances

so you're defending snape by saying he was part of a plot intended to offer a mesure of protection to the pureblood children when riddle took control of the country?
while the muggleborns were sent to umbridge's camps?
that's... interesting.

preier said:
hmm. yes umbridge is more rushed here.
could be explained by the consequences of actual proofs of the dementor attacks?
she may have had to spend much time/effort here to keep the heat on harry.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Well, as I see it, she already tried to kill Harry without any good reason other than "he might say something sometime in the future". That's not the action of a rational woman, nor a subtle one.

i only intended to show that the contrast between timelines (regarding her actions) could be explained by the differences in the results of the attack on privet drive.
multiple kissed muggles being very probably harder to attribute to harry. umbridge's (lack of) sanity was not my point.

Starfox5 · Mar 29, 2015

preier said:
so you're defending snape by saying he was part of a plot intended to offer a mesure of protection to the pureblood children when riddle took control of the country?
while the muggleborns were sent to umbridge's camps?
that's... interesting.

I never bought Snape's "have to act like an ass in public to keep my cover" excuse. One would have thought that Voldemort would have expected his spy to act as a good, caring wizard in public, not showing his "true feelings" towards muggleborns.

preier said:
i only intended to show that the contrast between timelines (regarding her actions) could be explained by the differences in the results of the attack on privet drive.
multiple kissed muggles being very probably harder to attribute to harry. umbridge's (lack of) sanity was not my point.

True. Though in canon and here she gave him a detention right in the first lesson.

alethiophile · Mar 30, 2015

Starfox5 said:
I never bought Snape's "have to act like an ass in public to keep my cover" excuse. One would have thought that Voldemort would have expected his spy to act as a good, caring wizard in public, not showing his "true feelings" towards muggleborns.

It is manifestly the behavior of Voldemort's faction to be an ass to muggleborns in public, and the behavior of Dumbledore's faction to be nice to them. To act as a good, caring wizard in public would be to visibly align with Dumbledore's faction. And before fourth year, Snape was not a double agent anything; he was plainly and straightforwardly either a Death Eater (before the prophecy was made) or Dumbledore's spy among the Death Eaters (after). He only started acting as a double/triple/whatever agent after the resurrection, when he could pretend to Voldemort that he was pretending only to join Voldemort on Dumbledore's orders, when in fact he was only doing it on Dumbledore's orders. At this point, changing his behavior would have been breaking character, and drawn scrutiny.

It makes perfect sense.

preier · Mar 30, 2015

alethiophile said:
And before fourth year, Snape was not a double agent anything; he was plainly and straightforwardly either a Death Eater (before the prophecy was made) or Dumbledore's spy among the Death Eaters (after)
...
It makes perfect sense.

not really no. if snape's official status at hogwarts is "dumbledore's spy"
that makes him a terrible spy for dumbledore

the "post-resurrection" point doesn't change a thing

there's a basic contradiction between the "face" he should wear to be a credible spy

,whichever side he actually works for,

and the way he behaves.

i'll grant you, it's perfectly in line with the general level of competency in the books.

or for a children's book decoy villain...

macdjord · Mar 30, 2015

Starfox5 said:
She still tried to kill a boy just to make sure he would not, at some point in the future, speak out against the minister. That's insane.

I'm not defending her sanity, only her ability to be subtle.

Starfox5 said:
The mere fact that Malfoy and the others who were identified by Harry at the resurrection ritual are still free, and alive at the end of book 5 proves that the Order didn't do anything useful. Taking out those could have been done without endangering Snape even, since Harry knew their names. It wouldn't have hurt anyone either, to tell Harry "Hey, those you named, we took them out. Good work."

So the fact they weren't able to assassinate a bunch of highly-placed dangerous wizards, who could draw on the resources and wards of noble houses, any of whom could warn the Dark Lord instantly if they were in danger... means they did nothing?

alethiophile · Mar 30, 2015

preier said:
there's a basic contradiction between the "face" he should wear to be a credible spy
,whichever side he actually works for,and the way he behaves.

Not at all. As Dumbledore's spy within the Death Eaters, he should credibly behave as one of the Death Eaters. It is fairly clear that, at Hogwarts, he is behaving in a manner credible for a Death Eater. Thus, he is doing his job right.

macdjord · Mar 30, 2015

Snape's roles and behaviours:

Before the prophecy:
- Role: Genuine Death Eater
- Cover: N/A
- Expected behaviour: Evil bastard
After the prophecy:
- Role: Dumbledore's double agent in the Death Eaters
- Cover: Loyal Death Eater
- Expected behaviour: Evil bastard
After Voldemort's fall:
- Role: Dumbledore's spy among the Blood Purists and Ex-DEs, with an eye towards resuming his double agent role should V return
- Cover: Blood purist who has managed to fool Dumbledore into thinking he's reformed
- Expected behaviour: Evil bastard (remember, it's the ex-DEs he has to convince of his loyalties, and they think Dumbledore a blinkered old fool)
After Voldemort's return:
- Role: Triple agent for Dumbldore among the Death Eaters
- Cover: Double agent for Voldemort among the Order
- Cover's Cover: Loyal Death Eater
- Expected behaviour: Evil bastard
After Dumbledore's Death:
- Role: Unsupported agent among the Death Eaters
- Cover: Loyal Death Eater
- Expected behaviour: Evil bastard

Ack · Mar 30, 2015

preier said:
or for a children's book decoy villain...

And that was Snape's role through basically every book. To be the straw-man villain. Nasty to Harry, unfair to Gryffindor, and when the villain is working his machinations, it always looks like Snape's in it up to his neck ... until he isn't.

After about the second book, I simply started looking past Snape to whoever the real villain was supposed to be.

macdjord · Mar 30, 2015

Ack said:
And that was Snape's role through basically every book. To be the straw-man villain. Nasty to Harry, unfair to Gryffindor, and when the villain is working his machinations, it always looks like Snape's in it up to his neck ... until he isn't.

After about the second book, I simply started looking past Snape to whoever the real villain was supposed to be.

What? That's his role in the first book, obviously, up to the Big Reveal where it's actually Quirrel. But that doesn't happen again until he kills Dumbledore. Sure, he'd set up as an antagonist, but not 'the villain' - it's never (seriously) suggested that he is the Heir of Slitherin, or Black's ally, or the one who put Harry's name in the Goblet.

Edit: Okay, there is one brief exception: In Order of the Pheonix, when Harry tells him that Sirius has been kidnapped and he appears to ignore the message, the reader is encouraged to think that he has genuinely gone over to Umbridge's side. But even then, he's suggested to be a secondary villain - there's no 'hidden real villain' to look past him to find.

Starfox5 · Mar 30, 2015

alethiophile said:
It is manifestly the behavior of Voldemort's faction to be an ass to muggleborns in public, and the behavior of Dumbledore's faction to be nice to them. To act as a good, caring wizard in public would be to visibly align with Dumbledore's faction. And before fourth year, Snape was not a double agent anything; he was plainly and straightforwardly either a Death Eater (before the prophecy was made) or Dumbledore's spy among the Death Eaters (after). He only started acting as a double/triple/whatever agent after the resurrection, when he could pretend to Voldemort that he was pretending only to join Voldemort on Dumbledore's orders, when in fact he was only doing it on Dumbledore's orders. At this point, changing his behavior would have been breaking character, and drawn scrutiny.

It makes perfect sense.

That Voldemort would believe Snape was could spy on Dumbledore for Voldemort while acting like a Death Eater in public turns Voldemort into an even bigger fool than his overly complicated plans already did.

macdjord said:
So the fact they weren't able to assassinate a bunch of highly-placed dangerous wizards, who could draw on the resources and wards of noble houses, any of whom could warn the Dark Lord instantly if they were in danger... means they did nothing?

If Dumbledore cannot assassinate Malfoy and co. then he has no business even trying to fight Voldemort, since even if Harry managed to take out Voldemort, obviously the Death Eaters would still be beyond Dumbledore's reach, and Voldemort's faction would still win just without him. Those Death Eaters were out and about, not holed up in their mansions. Malfoy was visiting Fudge regularly. If you can't assassinate Malfoy, you are too damn weak to face Voldemort.

alethiophile said:
Not at all. As Dumbledore's spy within the Death Eaters, he should credibly behave as one of the Death Eaters. It is fairly clear that, at Hogwarts, he is behaving in a manner credible for a Death Eater. Thus, he is doing his job right.

If Voldemort believes Dumbledore would keep a DE openly acting as a DE at his side, and lets him torment children, then that says a lot about the intelligence of either wizard. And nothing of it would be good.

preier · Mar 30, 2015

we're getting rather afar from the story. is there a forum for those kind of discussions, here?

macdjord said:
Snape's roles and behaviours:

before the first fall and after dumbledore's death, you're perfectly right.

between the two, it doesn't hold any water.
oh, don't get me wrong, it's exactly what jkr wrote and said later. still ... less than well constructed.

you're actually saying it yourself :
Cover: Blood purist who has managed to fool Dumbledore into thinking he's reformed

that's the face he should present to the DE in, you know, secret? NOT to the public at large.

if snape had been presented as a DE whom dumbledore was forced to employ by the board of governors?
his behavior would have been coherent with that.

if his whole public identity is only coherent if you accept that dumbledore is a fucking moron? (and you just said that's the case here for the Death eaters and voldemort.) Well, that's kind of a problem because tommy and his fanboys don't behave that way.

alethiophile · Mar 30, 2015

Starfox5 said:
That Voldemort would believe Snape was could spy on Dumbledore for Voldemort while acting like a Death Eater in public turns Voldemort into an even bigger fool than his overly complicated plans already did.

Not at all. Because Voldemort believes Dumbledore believes Snape is loyal to Dumbledore while pretending to be loyal to Voldemort and also that Snape is actually loyal to Voldemort while pretending to be loyal to Dumbledore while pretending to be loyal to Voldemort.

See? Perfect sense.

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