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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Discussion in 'Creative Writing' started by Mr Zoat, Jan 27, 2019.

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  1. LordofTentacle

    LordofTentacle Know what you're doing yet?

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    You know what I can see that, this fic has been going on so long with really small changes that it does remind me of classic comics. It's predictable, easily digested, kinda stale but in a good way like a old show you can watch again and again.
     
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  2. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    She started deliberately burning men to death because she came to believe that all men are evil.
    Thank you, corrected.
    No, I think that's okay.
     
  3. Dur'id the Druid

    Dur'id the Druid Know what you're doing yet?

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    FYI, I think brimstone actually put The Devil in charge here. Or at least some multi-aspected entity that can do this and the 1000+ administrative tasks of hell. I still remember the line from him, "I've never loved anyone but God!"

     
  4. ForeverShogo

    ForeverShogo Not too sore, are you?

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    Always fun to see people try to tackle the problem of Hell . . . Not least of which because in my own case I'm part of a denomination that believes in universal reconciliation. Specifically, the idea that everyone will go to Heaven and that Hell is at the very worst a place synonymous with Purgatory. Those sent there are only there temporarily. Some are just there longer than others depending on the severity of their sins.

    Now, obviously Brimstone doesn't roll with that interpretation. As I said, it seems to go with the idea that you need to seek forgiveness for the bad things you did in life. Especially because the main character is outright told that it was a lack of remorse when he killed his wife's rapist that got him sent to Hell, not the killing in and of itself.

    So I guess there's that undercurrent of, "If you can't even be bothered to say you're sorry then you literally chose Hell."

    Plus a little, "Of course you say you feel bad about it now. You're being punished and will say anything to make it stop."

    And I think we only ever see one escapee that feels genuine remorse for the things they did and seeks to repent. Pretty sure everyone else just happily continues doing evil shit or at most just feels bad that they got punished without actually feeling bad about what they got punished for. (The one repentant guy was actually a Nazi.)
     
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  5. FeepingCreature

    FeepingCreature Not too sore, are you?

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    If it's anything, it'd be a "weakman": people who make the argument exist, but they're picked to be easy to refute.

    It's an open question if that's a bad thing.
     
  6. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    I fear that the point is being missed. He's not trying to state what he believes to be true, he's trying to convince the person he's talking to not to burn anyone else to death.
     
  7. FeepingCreature

    FeepingCreature Not too sore, are you?

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    Right, the argument would be something like "the fact that Paul happens to be talking to someone holding a particular flawed belief is the weakman." This is a view of narrative as polemic, where the point isn't inherently to tell a story but to convince readers by proxy of a particular view on Christian theology.

    To be clear, I don't read it like that, but I can see how someone would.
     
  8. RichardWhereat

    RichardWhereat Aia airëa Fëanáro.

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    Not really, because while people holding weak beliefs like thst might be outliers (but definitely not rare, met more than a few from church youth groups) it does tend to be outliers who go violent and start attacking people over those beliefs. Which is what is happening here.
     
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  9. Windona

    Windona Beetle Queen of Crackshipping

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    I don't quite track how a general conversation about theology and hell is supposed to convince her not to burn people, but I suppose it was leading up to a "I can stop you from going to hell if you stop burning people". Interesting discussion on theology though.
     
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  10. FreeGod

    FreeGod If you see a God on the road fuck it!

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    Of course that includes the detective. I doubt that he generally fells remorse for sending those souls back to hell.
     
  11. Stsword

    Stsword Versed in the lewd.

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    To be fair the show only had 13 episodes and had 118 escaped souls.

    So if the show had continued there could have easily been more repentant souls, or souls like the cop who were good people who did a bad thing.
     
  12. RichardWhereat

    RichardWhereat Aia airëa Fëanáro.

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    It depends on their reason for burning people.
     
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  13. Stsword

    Stsword Versed in the lewd.

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    I don't remember her episode, according to wikipedia she came to the conclusion that all men were pigs, so time to start the BBQ.

    I don't know how much that was presented as "Yup, she's crazy" to "Well considering what she went through, no wonder she thinks like that."
     
  14. Threadmarks: Jet Fighter (part 11)
    Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    31st December 2012
    22:53 GMT +1


    "I had another vision."

    Mr. Wasem doesn't look at me. He's sitting opposite me with his body facing me, but his head is turned off to the side. The three pilots I rescued are sitting in that general direction but I don't think he's looking at them.

    "I had another vision, and-."

    "And it was Mannheim. I'm sorry."

    "He is… Doing something to the world, isn't he? After you took the hel-helmet off, I felt… The crushing despair. All my devotion-. I just wanted to help people-. I-I…"

    "To be clear, Mannheim isn't God. False visions happen, as do lying false prophets. You were trying to do good for good reasons. God knows that."

    "Perhaps… Perhaps it is just the… Shock… But at the moment, I do not know what to think. What I think. To think there is such… Evil in the universe."

    "I realise that Kahndaq-."

    His face turns back towards me, and for the first time I see a little of the real him. "No. That was the evil of men. The sort of evil that happened for all of history. What I feel in my soul, that is something… Something beyond."

    "I know what you mean."

    "I suppose… I suppose that you do." He shakes his head. "I was in the community centre. Then… Then it started. It was like…"

    "Yeah."

    "Like everything I had worked for was… It was a waste of time, like I had made the situation worse and that there was nothing that anyone could have done to make things better. To begin with, it was just… Something external, someone telling me that. People were screaming, panicking, and I tried… Tried calming them down. It… It didn't… Didn't work. I couldn't do it. Then… Then it wasn't outside any more. It was me, I believed it."

    "Was that because they put the helmet on you?"

    He bows his head slightly, then shakes it.

    "No. No, it was not. When they-. When they came, with the helmets, I… I stepped forward. I wanted it, wanted… Wanted to complete the.. change, to… Accept what was happening, to know why it was happening. With the helmet on, I… Felt that I was a.. tiny, completely replaceable part of some… Great machine."

    I nod. "And that was the right place for you, and it was right that the machine was there. And standing-"

    He stares directly at me, his eyes widening slightly as he nods.

    "-over it all is a malevolent divine power."

    "Yes. Yes."

    "If you're worried about anything… Anything blasphemous prayers you might have shouted while under the influence, don't. Heaven knows that mind control exists. God knows your heart."

    "But what if my heart has been corrupted with my mouth?"

    "Then you need to get to work on uncorrupting it. The people who put the helmet on you, were they wearing helmets themselves?"

    "No. I recognized some of them from the Alliance. Superheroes, or just people who wanted to do some good in the world but didn't have faith in God."

    "They weren't wearing helmets?"

    He shakes his head.

    "Were they wearing anything similar? Any… Sort of device that had the same design on it?"

    "No, not… Not that I saw."

    "Were there any other members of the Congregation there with you?"

    "One man. He was affected in the same way that I was."

    "Can you hear the rest of them?"

    "I'm-." He shakes his head, then goes back to looking away. "I'm.. blocking it. We can still have privacy. I'm-. I am afraid of what I would feel."

    I nod. "Understandable. Can you tell me what happened between them putting the helmet on you and you appearing here?"

    "It-. It's not… With… That in my head, being all I could.. think of, where I was, what I was doing… It didn't matter. Just being part of the machine, doing what G-. What he wanted. Shooting you, shooting myself…" He trembles as he shakes his head. "It didn't matter. It was all the same."

    "I don't suppose you got any sort of… Feel, for what other plans he might have?"

    "No. Only that they were great and terrible and inevitable. I..?"

    "Yes."

    "How is..? Gotham? And Kahndaq?"

    "Kahndaq's okay, actually. Teth Adom is able to use his magic to keep the Anti-Life out-."

    "That's what it's called? I suppose it's appropriate."

    "Yes, so Adrianna's leading the defence. It's one of two places in the world that look like they're holding out."

    I look around, trying to get a feel of the mind state of the people of Norway. The Anti-Life is all around, but with a little help from Guy it's… Mostly at bay. I… Maybe Dr. Balewa can use Scandinavia to see what other tweaks he can make to keep things normal? If we can prevent them from physically invading, they can't have an infinite number of helmets. Even if they're getting them from Apokolips, it's just a matter of travelling there and destroying the factory.

    "Look, I need to get back to it. Gotham is even less safe than normal, so I can leave you here or take you to Kahndaq."

    He nods. "Is it a sign of weakness that I want to go to Kahndaq?"

    "I don't think it's that unreasonable, given what happened to you."

    "I would rather shelter under a pagan god…"

    "I'm pretty sure that Kahndaq is going to play a major role when we retake the Earth, so feel free to volunteer when you've recovered a bit. To be honest, from the looks of things you wouldn't be much use at the moment."

    He nods again. "No, I suppose not. Thank you."

    "Orange Lantern to Blue Lantern."

    "Go ahead."

    "Robot defeated, Justifiers… I'll send you the file. One survivor, technique for fighting the robot acquired. I'm heading to Kahndaq now, but if you need me somewhere else..?"

    "It looks like the Justifiers sent some people to your place in Bir Tawil. I think maybe you should take a look at it."
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2022
  15. Vaermina

    Vaermina Well worn.

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    Wow... That's sure a boatload of confidence for a guy who just got his ass kicked and had to be saved by Guy.
     
  16. Coltsguy

    Coltsguy Colts fan. Anime fan. Breast and back fan.

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    Gotta be confident in front of the civvies. Besides, I doubt it would only be him going to do that anyway.
     
  17. Chojin Patriarch

    Chojin Patriarch Veteran Lurker

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    Probably still feeling that feeling of helplessness and worthlessness, since there's nothing between it and his conscious mind but a little bit of determined focus. Sadly, there's no real way to protect him from it fully. Even Kahndaq isn't completely resistant.

    Yeah, seeing that ugly mug in your mind would suck hard enough to haul a golf-ball through a garden hose. And he's only a pale imitation of the real thing.

    I have the feeling a lot of people are going to be feeling like this even after they clear the Anti-Life away. Would not be surprised to find a rise in conversions and atheism overall.

    Hmm... Can't remember for sure, but the name suggest he's an immigrant from Kahndaq? Been a long time since we saw this guy, after all... <Checks the link in the post two days back.> Ah, yes, That makes things clearer.

    Yes, OL's seen true evil, evil beyond the capability of mortal men. And he has rejoiced, because there's less of it after he finished...

    Like being smothered in a deep depression, so deep that it felt like a physical blow? Yeah, Anti-Life's like that.

    Oooh, that's a complex mixture of Anti-life Factors. And probably the ones that resonated most with him, since I doubt it's just something simple like Effort=Futility.

    Ah, the insidious whispers. Making you start to believe what they say, to the point that it feels more like you're the one thinking it and they're just agreeing with you.

    And that's what the whole universe would feel if Darkseid ever completed the equation the way He wants it to be. All life, kneeling and bowing their head to Him, moving at His will... Terrifying.

    Which would hit all the harder, because he's already disposed to bow to a Higher Power.

    Now, if he wanted to keep feeling that way, to knowingly and willingly do evil... That's a ticket Downstairs.

    And depending on how hard this hit him, he may spend the rest of his life trying to atone...

    Oh, that's worrying. I'm guessing because they had blobs of Anti-Life inserted directly into them via the teleportation system, it worked faster and stronger to control them.

    Maybe some kind of Alliance badge that acted as an additional focus?

    Not that they'd be in any shape to use their gifts...

    Ooh, good idea. He was being marinated in Anti-Life by the helmet, so of course he's have been directed by it.

    Thank you, Guy, for that buff to willpower...

    Nasty stuff. Anti-Life: not even once...

    Well, that goes without saying. How much of that 'great, terrible, inevitable' plan is Mannheim's and how much is his masters' remains to be seen...

    Impressively so. Amazing what being on pleasant terms with your patrons will do for you.

    Norway being the other, of course. Good Guy keeping his girl's homeland safe.

    ...You say that so casually. Given that the League's previous operation on Apokalips was more of a 'sneak in, smash, grab and run', I don't foresee it being that simple.

    No, old fellow. Not at all. It's your homeland, after all, and probably the safest place for you right now.

    ...Than one that seems to be sitting back and waiting for people to save themselves?

    Clever, giving him an out to avoid the fight if he feels the need. And to be fair, I suspect he needs it.

    Time to call for a Tube, then.

    Oh, indulging a in a bit of Home Invasion, eh? Wonder if it's a general rummage, or if they're looking for anything specific?

    Well, Norway's in safe hands, even if they're giant green-glowing ones. Time to see where else he can offer help. ...Once he sees off some burglars. Not sure what he might have there they'd be interested in, unless it's a case of the Dark Side thinking 'maybe there's some big alien guns to find'. Though I doubt OL would leave anything dangerous laying around there.
     
  18. Ngamer11

    Ngamer11 Experienced.

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    Didn't Paul leave a spare body there just in case?
     
  19. PepeTheFrog

    PepeTheFrog Not too sore, are you?

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    Evil Twin Mirror Match Time!
     
  20. Chaoswind

    Chaoswind Lord of nonsense

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    Yes, its a clear chekovs gun. Paul should have secured his clone and sent it to Maltus.

    Would be funny if Paul gets the same issues Grayven had, with a clone of his being turned into a new God in the service of Darkseid (sent the clone there to be awakened) and then his power being split with the clone.

    You want to have a place that can flash clone you when you die, getting the clones ahead of time is just asking for trouble.
     
  21. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    Hmm, wonder why that is.

    They either could have been even more brainwashed and the helmets were for people that were likely to be able to resist.

    Or the helmets were put on people with unique characteristics.

    Wasem is basically a prophet so his soul may be greater than the average person.

    Finality Man drained the Justifiers to heal itself, so maybe the helmets were put on people with strong metaphysical characteristics so that they can provide more energy.
     
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  22. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    The number of suicides will be on the rise.

    Not atheism, since they have proof that God exists.

    Granted, having proof has never stopped people from doing the opposite.

    Antitheism may be on the rise, though.

    If God allowed something like that to exist, then he doesn't deserve faith.

    After Anti-Life, Hell may be preferable.

    Plus it's getting better since Mammon took over.

    Though I am worried if all the people that die during this end up in Hell because of guilt.

    We know from Lucifer and Sandman that feeling guilt can send a person to Hell, and Anti-Life can bring out guilt.

    Or the idea I had above about strong souls.

    Okay, now I'm worried.

    Wasem has a connection to Heaven, so he can get messages from them.

    What if the helmets can send Anti-Life through his connection to Heaven.
     
  23. Bud-E

    Bud-E Stand up so I can push you down!

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    I'm pretty sure antitheism was already on the rise after Heaven set the earth on fire and killed untold millions of people and then it was revealed that Angels don't have direct communication with God. So faith in a just God has taken a serious hit.
     
  24. Windona

    Windona Beetle Queen of Crackshipping

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    Given Wasem's talk about pagan gods, this might result in an even greater boon for non-monotheistic religions. Or just do what non-religious Jews did after the Holocaust, going "I don't care if God exists or not He's not taking my traditions away from me". clearly this is the time for a rise in Raoism the one true religion

    Looks like Paul is getting recalled early. A Justified Paul clone... but would he have an orange ring? It can't be that simple.
     
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  25. PDV

    PDV Revelation That Uncertainty Is Itself An Answer

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    Proof that a jumped-up elemental with delusions of morality and relevance exists.
     
  26. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    Didn't think of that, but good point.

    Not necessarily.

    Even if God is not the creator of the universe in this setting, people may have known that and still worshipped him believing him to be an incredibly powerful force, but this may shake that faith.
     
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  27. FreeGod

    FreeGod If you see a God on the road fuck it!

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    The sliver city is certainly not sending forces to help right now.
     
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  28. Chaoswind

    Chaoswind Lord of nonsense

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    They caged the earth with holy fire and killed tens of thousands of demon worshippers and thousands of bystanders that didn't move away fast enough, don't let Paul experience with the Host paint what the Host actually did to earth (pretty much nothing).

    Remember the earth split? That killed hundreds of thousands directly (mostly children) and can be argued to have killed hundreds thousands more indirectly (adult suicides after losing their children), the host of heaven killed a lot less than that and most of the people they killed had it coming and that is before you remember the Host revived the people they wrongly killed, so a net positive by all accounts.

    Of course the Sheda killed tens of million directly and likely caused the death of tens of millions more due to exposure as people fleed population centers, the host in comparison killed nothing. With developing nations with poor organization being hit harder than developed better armed and organized ones.

    The current Anti Life is mind controlling people into despair, but Paul already mentioned that people with a better standard of living are taking the artificial dose of despair significantly worse than those that learned to live with some despair in the developing world. So the kill count is of the anti life is unlikely to get as high as the Sheda.


    So no there is no interpretation that ends with the Host killing millions of people, not even as hyperbole.
     
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  29. Alasnuyo

    Alasnuyo I am always here

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    You know. one thing that might help with the situation right now other than the white light is the black light. Considering that anti-life is basically adjacent to the black light, a sufficiently skilled user of black power rings might be able to wrestle control of the anti-life broadcast away from Mannheim.

    However, considering that the only black lanterns shown in the fic doesn't even live in Universe-16, the Cthonian gods might be the next best bet. Those guys basically all have black quotation marks whenever they speak. And Paul is pretty chummy with Hades, after all.
     
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  30. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    Which could mean that they're either infected themselves, Manheim is somehow blocking them, or they're confident that the situation will resolve itself.

    Last time we saw Hades, he was preparing to get his mind wiped so that he could try to save а marriage that should have ended thousands of years ago.

    If he's still lacking his memories then he may not know what to do, and even if he gets them back, his mental state may not be sufficient to do anything without significant risk.
     
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