With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Ardy]

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. It IS the direct fault of the Police, Hospitals, Arkam, Harley Quinn, any hired goon, and everyone else too. They have the power and the responsibilty to stop him from kill8ng people, yet they choose to do nothing. Again, with great power comes great responsibility, and those who have the power to protect the citizens from the monsters who threaten them have a responsibility to take care of the monsters, The only way to stop The Joker from causing people's deaths, directly or indirectly, is to finish him off once and for all. Yes, people will die if they try to kill The Joker, but they will also die if The Joker lives too, so either way, people are going to die, And if people are going to die no matter what, they might as well make sure that the clown is among the dead bodies rather than the one making the dead bodies.

Also, I call bull on your League of Shadows argument. Even if Batman started killing his villains, he wouldn't join the League of Shadows. For one thing, even for lethal anti-heroes like The Punisher or Red Hood, The League of Shadows is far too extreme by their standards, and Ra's Al Ghul is far too psychotic to be trusted. I'd even go as far as to say that Ra's is just as crazy as the Joker, just a different flavor of craziness. If anything, a murderous Batman would definitely kill Ra's and disintegrate his corpse to ensure he actually stays dead.

And no, I also don't believe that Batman is uniquely guilty of this, I was just using him as an example because he's the most egregious example of the lot. The argument I presented can apply to most superheroes who have this issue too.

Also, when you say "the Joker killed and was caught, thank god he can't keep killing", you're completely missing the point. No, even if you catch the Joker and lock him up, that will not solve the problem. It will NEVER solve the problem. Arkham Asylum cannot hold the Joker to save its life. In fact, we may as well rename it to Arkham Hotel, because at this point, it's more of a place for Batman's rogues to rest and relax between their plans. They can sleep in and are well fed and taken care of, and they can leave whenever they want. Again, like a freaking hotel.

Plus, you say that fixing the system is Bruce Wayne's job, but let me ask you this: In all of Bruce's years that he's spent trying to use his money to fix the system, has that ever actually worked? The answer is a big, fat NOPE. Gotham has proven time and time again that you can't fix the system by throwing a bunch of money and influence at it. It was a corrupt dunghole on the day that Bruce lost his parents, and it's still a corrupt dunghole today.

And lastly, yes, I do believe that almost every other hero should be held responsible for the actions of their recurring villains too, not just Batman. In the Bat-family, Red Hood is the only one who actually makes sense, and the rest of them are crazy. I was just using Batman because he's the most egregious example, but he's not the only one this applies to. I believe that other supervillains like Lex Luthor, Sinestro, Reverse Flash, Black Manta, and the rest of the Legion of Doom should have been slaughtered like cattle a long time ago, and that their respective Nemesises should have executed them. I said it once and I'll say it again: Those who just stand by and let villains do whatever they want are no better than willing accomplices.

That being said, I understand that every rule has its exceptions, and I should also point out that I don't hold all superheroes responsible for this, nor am I always against the heroes adopting a no-killing rule, because there's a few superheroes who, in my opinion, can actually make the no-killing rule work, and usually have very good reasons for not killing their villains. One example I can think of is Miraculous Ladybug, in which the no-killing rule actually makes sense, because almost all the supervillains in that show are innocent civilians who have been empowered and brainwashed against their will, so killing them would be horrifying. Not to mention that a lot of those brainwashed supervillains are close friends and loved ones of the heroes, so expecting the heroes to use lethal force is just unfair and unreasonable. Another example I can think of is Danny Phantom, in which the no-killing rule debate is completely moot, because about 90% of Danny's enemies are ghosts, so they're already dead to begin with.

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It also works in Danny Phantom cause all the writers were murdered before season 3

 

[Mr Zoat]

20th July 2013
16:37 GMT -5

"Thank you for agreeing to see me, Missus Wayne."

Talia dismisses her gofer with a wave of her left hand, prompting the young woman to back out through the office door and close it behind her. She then reaches under her desk and I hear a faint click as… Ah, a room-sized scry ward and a quiet white noise generator activates. Not a perfect defence, but good enough that they'd stop all but the most serious efforts at eavesdropping.

"Do you have information that you cannot pass to Richard?"

"No, I…" I look around, then generate a construct barrier and drop off a ward stone. "I'm concerned about-."

"What you did to my husband's mind."

"What he's doing now. I fully accept blame for my part in what's happened to him, and if you've got some sort of idea on the appropriate way to make restitution then I'll make it, but I did all I could to right things and it appears not to have worked."

"Then do not worry yourself, Orange Lantern. I think that my beloved is the most productive he has ever been."

I.. shouldn't be surprised.

I take a moment to close my eyes, take a breath and centre myself.

"I'd like to say that I think you've done an excellent job with Gotham, both in economic management and crime fighting."

She narrows her eyes slightly. "Why are you saying that? You are not attempting to appeal to my vanity, and you have made no secret that you do not think that I am a good person or wife."

"There's a little more to my position than that. And having spoken to Selina at length, I… I've come to the conclusion that she isn't actually the strictly superior choice that I originally thought that she was."

"Oh? Tell me of her flaws."

"Um-. Well, aside from your understandable divide in loyalty between your intended and your father, you've always been focused and single-minded in pursuit of the thing or things that you want. Those things weren't always a good idea or morally praiseworthy, but you always knew what they were. Even with Mister Hagen, you pursued that relationship until you were sure that he was just using you, and then without hesitation you tried to kill him."

"I can see why you would admire that approach. Do you mean that Selina Falcone does not measure up?"

"She doesn't. Now that her basic needs are met, she is unhealthily unfocused. She has no reason to strive for a goal and so she doesn't. For someone like me it's actually a little uncomfortable to be around her."

A mild look of curiosity enters her expression. "I had not realised that you were that sensitive."

"It's more an intellectual discomfort than a physical one. And she has no interest in addressing her problem." I shake my head. "So as much as I don't like you, I'm forced to admit that you were probably the better choice for Mister Wayne."

"I appreciate your candour, but I do not understand why you chose to share this."

"I'm just.. trying to emphasise that I'm not opposed to you dogmatically. There are things about you I respect, and I want you to… Consider the content of what I'm about to say rather than just mentally depositing me in the 'outgroup' box."

"Very well. I will hear your counsel with an open mind."

"Thank you."

"So give it."

"Do you not think that Batman making a mind wiped army of supersoldiers is a little out of character?"

"Given that he refused to allow you to augment him and has not sought such things before, yes. It clearly is."

"And he only did it after being exposed to, in no particular order, the Anti-Life, a yellow power ring, and me."

"I think you are mistaken. I remember the Anti-Life influencing him in a different direction."

"Yes. It-. But he continued to be exposed to the Anti-Life after I… Messed with him. It was in the mix." She dismisses the point with a shrug. "And in other circumstances I might well support him raising a militia, except that your father -for example- took on volunteers."

"The members of the Global Peace Agency are volunteers."

"Batman could fake a video. Your father also… Indoctrinated people, but he didn't wipe their minds. Hagen passed that training. Jade passed that training. They both walked away-."

"Hagen was transported-" A faint smile. "-by freight."

"I mean metaphorically walked away. Hagen didn't stay loyal, if he was loyal to start with. Jade turned. Which means that Batman is allowing his army less freedom than Ra's al Ghul did. Does that seem out of character to you?"

She… Actually seems to take that in.

"It… Does. I still do not object to it. If they choose to sacrifice their minds in that manner, why forbid them?"

"Because they're.. sacrificing their minds in that manner. Being a superhero is sort of.. all about saying that you know better, and when people feel so bad that they want to kill themselves, you're… Supposed to try talking them out of it, not hand them a razorblade. I mean… Does that sound like heroic behaviour to you?"

"Perhaps he feels that another hero in that mould is not what the world needs."

"Does that sound like Batman behaviour to you?"

"I think my beloved is capable of a great many things that he would not enjoy doing. You have that in common."

"And then there's the secondary trigger, which removes all their agency. Now, if I squint really hard I could see him accepting using something like that on criminals as an alternative to execution, but upstanding volunteers? That's out of character." I watch her for a moment, waiting for a response. "Yes? No?"

She-. She's actually thinking it over. Gosh. I was expecting her to give me short shrift and then have me thrown out.

"It is a substantial change. That much is true."

"So perhaps you like him taking a more aggressive track. Perhaps you think it's a good practical idea. But… Maybe I don't know all of his reasons… But look at it all, and ask yourself: 'Is this Batman?'."

She bows her head slightly. "I will consider this. Is there anything else?"

"No… No, that's it. Thank you for hearing me out."

I recover my rune and drop my shields-.

"If Batman was doing something untoward, what would you do?"

"Depends what it was and why. For someone as morally good as him, I.. wouldn't want to do anything… Extreme. Destroy his tools, talk him down, send him on holiday to decompress… Something like that."

"That is a weight off my mind." … "Thank you for talking to me about this."

 

[Ngamer11]

"I can see why you would admire that approach. Do you mean that Selina Falcone does not measure up?"

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When did Selina's lineage become public knowledge? I remember in the In Praise of Eros timeline Selina herself didn't know about it until Paul revealed it to her.

 

[Darko]

gofer with a waves of her

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"wave"

now hand them a razorblade

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"not hand"

 

[Mr Zoat]

@Mr Zoat, I updated the epub for the story, here is the link.

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Thank you, added.

When did Selina's lineage become public knowledge? I remember in the In Praise of Eros timeline Selina herself didn't know about it until Paul revealed it to her.

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It's not public knowledge. Talia is unusual well informed.

"wave"
"not hand"

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Thank you, corrected.

 

[Ngamer11]

It's not public knowledge. Talia is unusual well informed.

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So Selina herself is still unaware?

 

[Coltsguy]

I recover my rune and drop my shields-.

"If Batman was doing something untoward, what would you do?"

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She waited until after he dropped his protections to ask him that. I smell deliberancy.

 

[DAT_NOOB]

She waited until after he dropped his protections to ask him that. I smell deliberancy.

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I mean she probably has access to what He did to Doctor Fate so she's trying to check if Batman is next on the list.

 

[Chojin Patriarch]

20th July 2013
16:37 GMT -5

"Thank you for agreeing to see me, Missus Wayne."

Talia dismisses her gofer with a wave of her left hand, prompting the young woman to back out through the office door and close it behind her. She then reaches under her desk and I hear a faint click as… Ah, a room-sized scry ward and a quiet white noise generator activates. Not a perfect defence, but good enough that they'd stop all but the most serious efforts at eavesdropping.

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It's good enough for most methods of eavesdropping up to and including a Power Ring, certainly. Unless a listener was in the room beforehand and concealed, they would not be hearing anything.

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

"Do you have information that you cannot pass to Richard?"

"No, I…" I look around, then generate a construct barrier and drop off a ward stone. "I'm concerned about-."

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Doubling up the protection, because you just know Batman might well be paranoid enough to have Talia bugged, these days...

"What you did to my husband's mind."

"What he's doing now. I fully accept blame for my part in what's happened to him, and if you've got some sort of idea on the appropriate way to make restitution then I'll make it, but I did all I could to right things and it appears not to have worked."

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Yeah, OL's already made it clear to others that he knows he fucked up with Batman, but this hits that much harder. How was Talia responding to his better state of mind back then, before the Yellow Ring? Glad? Annoyed? Who knows?

"Then do not worry yourself, Orange Lantern. I think that my beloved is the most productive he has ever been."

I.. shouldn't be surprised.

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Ah. No doubt it's clear what she thought of the 'calmer, gentler' Batman. Thinking of the 'Son of the Bat' Elseworlds, she actually got worried he was losing his edge without his anger, when she was pregnant with his child...

I take a moment to close my eyes, take a breath and centre myself.

"I'd like to say that I think you've done an excellent job with Gotham, both in economic management and crime fighting."

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And with all his suspicions, that he can say that and mean it is impressive.

She narrows her eyes slightly. "Why are you saying that? You are not attempting to appeal to my vanity, and you have made no secret that you do not think that I am a good person or wife."

"There's a little more to my position than that. And having spoken to Selina at length, I… I've come to the conclusion that she isn't actually the strictly superior choice that I originally thought that she was."

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Honestly, I think Selina was more interested in the 'being pursued' part of her relationship with Batman. She would have gotten bored when she got her prize, same as any heist she's pulled...

"Oh? Tell me of her flaws."

"Um-. Well, aside from your understandable divide in loyalty between your intended and your father, you've always been focused and single-minded in pursuit of the thing or things that you want. Those things weren't always a good idea or morally praiseworthy, but you always knew what they were. Even with Mister Hagen, you pursued that relationship until you were sure that he was just using you, and then without hesitation you tried to kill him."

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Almost like a decent Orange Lantern, really. 'Want the ends, want the means.' Though not so mono-focused to make a good one.

"I can see why you would admire that approach. Do you mean that Selina Falcone does not measure up?"

"She doesn't. Now that her basic needs are met, she is unhealthily unfocused. She has no reason to strive for a goal and so she doesn't. For someone like me it's actually a little uncomfortable to be around her."

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I see Talia's been digging into her rival's history. And yes, I can see where a lack of clear desires would be unsettling to OL's Enlightened focus. Like an ADHD flicker of 'I don't know what I want' beamed right into his empathic senses...

A mild look of curiosity enters her expression. "I had not realised that you were that sensitive."

"It's more an intellectual discomfort than a physical one. And she has no interest in addressing her problem." I shake my head. "So as much as I don't like you, I'm forced to admit that you were probably the better choice for Mister Wayne."

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Though it doesn't sound like he's giving up on Selina entirely as a project, he's probably going to wait until she can find something she wants.

"I appreciate your candour, but I do not understand why you chose to share this."

"I'm just.. trying to emphasise that I'm not opposed to you dogmatically. There are things about you I respect, and I want you to… Consider the content of what I'm about to say rather than just mentally depositing me in the 'outgroup' box."

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Ah, that explains a lot. And given their history, she probably would be inclined to be adversarial at first.

"Very well. I will hear your counsel with an open mind."

"Thank you."

"So give it."

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In other words, stop waffling and say it.

"Do you not think that Batman making a mind wiped army of supersoldiers is a little out of character?"

"Given that he refused to allow you to augment him and has not sought such things before, yes. It clearly is."

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No, not out of character for someone like your father, Talia. Out of character for Bruce Wayne.

"And he only did it after being exposed to, in no particular order, the Anti-Life, a yellow power ring, and me."

"I think you are mistaken. I remember the Anti-Life influencing him in a different direction."

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What, becoming lighter and softer? That might well have been defensive, making a resistance to the whispers of the Anti-Life... Bruce sometimes comes form a dark enough place that the Anti-Life would start to feel comfortable.

"Yes. It-. But he continued to be exposed to the Anti-Life after I… Messed with him. It was in the mix." She dismisses the point with a shrug. "And in other circumstances I might well support him raising a militia, except that your father -for example- took on volunteers."

"The members of the Global Peace Agency are volunteers."

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And whose word are you taking on that? Theirs? Batman's? I would want a neutral third party involved.

"Batman could fake a video. Your father also… Indoctrinated people, but he didn't wipe their minds. Hagen passed that training. Jade passed that training. They both walked away-."

"Hagen was transported-" A faint smile. "-by freight."

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Semantics. They turned against the League of Shadows.

"I mean metaphorically walked away. Hagen didn't stay loyal, if he was loyal to start with. Jade turned. Which means that Batman is allowing his army less freedom than Ra's al Ghul did. Does that seem out of character to you?"

She… Actually seems to take that in.

"It… Does. I still do not object to it. If they choose to sacrifice their minds in that manner, why forbid them?"

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Ah, the drawback of her indoctrination into her Father's ideology, even if she turned her back on it later.

"Because they're.. sacrificing their minds in that manner. Being a superhero is sort of.. all about saying that you know better, and when people feel so bad that they want to kill themselves, you're… Supposed to try talking them out of it, not hand them a razorblade. I mean… Does that sound like heroic behaviour to you?"

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It does clash a bit with the idealistic nature of the typical American costumed vigilante.

"Perhaps he feels that another hero in that mould is not what the world needs."

"Does that sound like Batman behaviour to you?"

"I think my beloved is capable of a great many things that he would not enjoy doing. You have that in common."

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Yes, but is it behaviour you would prefer? That you think he would prefer?

"And then there's the secondary trigger, which removes all their agency. Now, if I squint really hard I could see him accepting using something like that on criminals as an alternative to execution, but upstanding volunteers? That's out of character." I watch her for a moment, waiting for a response. "Yes? No?"

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Ah, see, now she's actually thinking about it. Her detective has a certain moral standard to him., things to which he would not stoop.

She-. She's actually thinking it over. Gosh. I was expecting her to give me short shrift and then have me thrown out.

"It is a substantial change. That much is true."

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And it seems she's starting to see OL's concerns for what they are: This is not how Batman should be.

"So perhaps you like him taking a more aggressive track. Perhaps you think it's a good practical idea. But… Maybe I don't know all of his reasons… But look at it all, and ask yourself: 'Is this Batman?'."

She bows her head slightly. "I will consider this. Is there anything else?"

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I wonder if she'll also look further back, at things before the Anti-Life that he did. If this was a slow evolution of where he was heading, because of her or not, or if this is more sudden.

"No… No, that's it. Thank you for hearing me out."

I recover my rune and drop my shields-.

"If Batman was doing something untoward, what would you do?"

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...Interesting that you would wait until that moment before asking that, Talia.

"Depends what it was and why. For someone as morally good as him, I.. wouldn't want to do anything… Extreme. Destroy his tools, talk him down, send him on holiday to decompress… Something like that."

"That is a weight off my mind." … "Thank you for talking to me about this."

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Certainly, he needs to lose the Yellow Ring for a bit. Hopefully it hasn't shaped his mind to suit itself too much, in a lesser way to how OL adapted to the Orange Light...

If even the woman closest to Batman, the one most likely to go 'Super-soldier army? All right' and nod, can look at him and start to think 'This is not right'... Then maybe it isn't. This might be the best way to get the League turning their eyes to What Batman's been doing. Ask them 'Is this the way Batman should be acting? Is this how you remember he would act?' And see how they respond...

 

[Neruz]

The only way to stop The Joker from causing people's deaths, directly or indirectly, is to finish him off once and for all.

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To be entirely fair, depending on the continuity this is not always possible.

There's at least one continuity where the Joker is actually the living embodiment of Gotham's curse, and when you kill him the curse just jumps to a random person in Gotham and turns them into the Joker, for example.

 

[Ardy]

To be entirely fair, depending on the continuity this is not always possible.

There's at least one continuity where the Joker is actually the living embodiment of Gotham's curse, and when you kill him the curse just jumps to a random person in Gotham and turns them into the Joker, for example.

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If only they had an entire continent of magic users they could outsource curse breaking to.

 

[Neruz]

If only they had an entire continent of magic users they could outsource curse breaking to.

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Gotham's curse is the result of like a dozen different curses and sources of evil all layered on top of each other, breaking it would almost certainly require purging the city from existence entirely, and likely digging up the bedrock as well.

 

[Ardy]

Gotham's curse is the result of like a dozen different curses and sources of evil all layered on top of each other, breaking it would almost certainly require purging the city from existence entirely, and likely digging up the bedrock as well.

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C'mon dude, this is DC. Not only is there no reason for that extreme of a solution to be required, but there's a 90% chance a brief ritual summoning the evil spirit followed by punching will solve the problem

 

[Neruz]

C'mon dude, this is DC. Not only is there no reason for that extreme of a solution to be required, but there's a 90% chance a brief ritual summoning the evil spirit followed by punching will solve the problem

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Depending on continuity the curse can be the combined result of:

An ancient indian burial ground.
A lovecraftian elder god.
A sealed ancient evil wizard.
Another sealed ancient evil wizard, who has been buried sleeping underground and passively spreading his evil mojo for 40,000 years.
The city was specifically constructed by its founder to enhance and amplify ambient evil magics for ritual purposes. (Which is why he built it on an ancient indian burial ground.)
An imprisoned bat-demon.
The tormented spirits of centuries worth of crazy people because the asylum predates the city and was built centuries ago by a serial killer.
A portal to hell because the asylum was co-opted by a cultist who decided that the inmates would make a ready supply of human sacrifices.
Decades of industrial runoff seeping into the ground.
Lazarus pit chemicals also seeping into the ground.
Ancient aliems.

And I'm pretty sure there's at least a couple more things that I can't quite remember off the top of my head.


Gotham isn't just cursed, it's cursed.

 

[Mr Zoat]

So Selina herself is still unaware?

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No, Long Good Friday and When in Rome have already happened. She knows.

 

[Signaller]

@Mr Zoat, I updated the epub for the story, here is the link.

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Is there a list of android-compatible epub apps support coloured text?

 

[Darko]

20th July 2013
16:37 GMT -5

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In the spoiler box it says 19th July.

 

[Duke Long]

No, that doesn't really add up, because if they had hostages and bombs, wouldn't it have made more sense to use those for the distraction instead of the giant plant monsters? Or at the very least, the villains would have announced the fact that they had hostages over their TV broadcast alongside their giant plant monsters to put extra pressure on both the Justice League and the world governments to distract them even more, because why take hostages if you're not actually going to use those hostages at all? If they actually had hostages, they would have announced it in their broadcast too, because a hostage doesn't work on your enemy if your enemy doesn't know that there's a hostage to begin with. When you take someone hostage, you NEED to let your enemy know that there is a hostage, otherwise they won't do what you want. That'd be like if I tried to blackmail someone into doing what I want without actually telling them that I have blackmail material on them. Kind of defeats the purpose, doesn't it?

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I'm just steelmanning Vaermina's argument. I really don't think it's a good argument, I just felt it wasn't as rubbish as I got the impression you believed it was.

I think Vaermina's point is that they might have things set up from long ago, separate from the Injustice League matter. Common Sense might not know this if he hasn't thoroughly read their files (ha, as if). Also, if a villain is sufficiently crazy they might have set something up without announcing it, as a final fuck you rather than a proper deterrent.

Again, I think these are unlikely, and honestly I think that you shouldn't hold off from killing people just because they have a dead man's switch, unless that dead man's switch is extremely nasty, because if you just kill people and eat the losses, you discourage future rational villains from bothering with making dead man's switches (of course ideally you would be able to both kill the villain and defuse their contingency, presumably by mind reading or controlling them before killing them). I don't agree that killing them was a bad decision with the information available to Common Sense.

 

[WereDragon]

Missus Wayne

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OL is still in his 'avoid the issue' stage of intervention I see.
Even if he had managed to convince her, what does he think she could possible do to oppose an insane Batman?

 

[Wivk]

She waited until after he dropped his protections to ask him that. I smell deliberancy.

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I noticed that too.

 

[Kencord]

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. It IS the direct fault of the Police, Hospitals, Arkam, Harley Quinn, any hired goon, and everyone else too. They have the power and the responsibilty to stop him from kill8ng people, yet they choose to do nothing. Again, with great power comes great responsibility, and those who have the power to protect the citizens from the monsters who threaten them have a responsibility to take care of the monsters, The only way to stop The Joker from causing people's deaths, directly or indirectly, is to finish him off once and for all. Yes, people will die if they try to kill The Joker, but they will also die if The Joker lives too, so either way, people are going to die, And if people are going to die no matter what, they might as well make sure that the clown is among the dead bodies rather than the one making the dead bodies.

Also, I call bull on your League of Shadows argument. Even if Batman started killing his villains, he wouldn't join the League of Shadows. For one thing, even for lethal anti-heroes like The Punisher or Red Hood, The League of Shadows is far too extreme by their standards, and Ra's Al Ghul is far too psychotic to be trusted. I'd even go as far as to say that Ra's is just as crazy as the Joker, just a different flavor of craziness. If anything, a murderous Batman would definitely kill Ra's and disintegrate his corpse to ensure he actually stays dead.

And no, I also don't believe that Batman is uniquely guilty of this, I was just using him as an example because he's the most egregious example of the lot. The argument I presented can apply to most superheroes who have this issue too.

Also, when you say "the Joker killed and was caught, thank god he can't keep killing", you're completely missing the point. No, even if you catch the Joker and lock him up, that will not solve the problem. It will NEVER solve the problem. Arkham Asylum cannot hold the Joker to save its life. In fact, we may as well rename it to Arkham Hotel, because at this point, it's more of a place for Batman's rogues to rest and relax between their plans. They can sleep in and are well fed and taken care of, and they can leave whenever they want. Again, like a freaking hotel.

Plus, you say that fixing the system is Bruce Wayne's job, but let me ask you this: In all of Bruce's years that he's spent trying to use his money to fix the system, has that ever actually worked? The answer is a big, fat NOPE. Gotham has proven time and time again that you can't fix the system by throwing a bunch of money and influence at it. It was a corrupt dunghole on the day that Bruce lost his parents, and it's still a corrupt dunghole today.

And lastly, yes, I do believe that almost every other hero should be held responsible for the actions of their recurring villains too, not just Batman. In the Bat-family, Red Hood is the only one who actually makes sense, and the rest of them are crazy. I was just using Batman because he's the most egregious example, but he's not the only one this applies to. I believe that other supervillains like Lex Luthor, Sinestro, Reverse Flash, Black Manta, and the rest of the Legion of Doom should have been slaughtered like cattle a long time ago, and that their respective Nemesises should have executed them. I said it once and I'll say it again: Those who just stand by and let villains do whatever they want are no better than willing accomplices.

That being said, I understand that every rule has its exceptions, and I should also point out that I don't hold all superheroes responsible for this, nor am I always against the heroes adopting a no-killing rule, because there's a few superheroes who, in my opinion, can actually make the no-killing rule work, and usually have very good reasons for not killing their villains. One example I can think of is Miraculous Ladybug, in which the no-killing rule actually makes sense, because almost all the supervillains in that show are innocent civilians who have been empowered and brainwashed against their will, so killing them would be horrifying. Not to mention that a lot of those brainwashed supervillains are close friends and loved ones of the heroes, so expecting the heroes to use lethal force is just unfair and unreasonable. Another example I can think of is Danny Phantom, in which the no-killing rule debate is completely moot, because about 90% of Danny's enemies are ghosts, so they're already dead to begin with.

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All heroes was a poor extrapolation, I meant all DC heroes. Everyone adjacent to the Batman and his antics.

At this point I don't think we're actually arguing.

You hold that the System is inherently broken as it must be for the story to allow Joker to escape and kill again. If there is no justice in the system built to uphold it, it falls to the people to make their own justice. Batman is just the most equipped and first responding body in most cases where there is a clear delineation between Thief, Superthief, Killer, And Super Killer. To say the second and third group may get second chances, but not thirds. And if anyone drops the ball on dealing with the danger's permanently, its a collective responsibility to pick up the slack.

Fair fine and agreed up to this point.

My point of disagreement is that if the goal is to add justice to a system lacking it, trying to force it out of Batman seems an unkind way to go about it. And the now given recognition that hinging the whole of another murder spree by a madman who was just arrested on the arresting body because they didn't double tap is only approaching 'reasonable' after narrative declarations make every other entity involved incompetent or unwilling.

 

[CrazyNoVa]

My point of disagreement is that if the goal is to add justice to a system lacking it, trying to force it out of Batman seems an unkind way to go about it. And the now given recognition that hinging the whole of another murder spree by a madman who was just arrested on the arresting body because they didn't double tap is only approaching 'reasonable' after narrative declarations make every other entity involved incompetent or unwilling.

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Fair point, but what else is there? I know that I'm being really harsh, but how else would you go about it? Batman is the most equipped to handle The Joker and he's the one who's had the most chances to actually stop him once and for all. I'm just saying, Batman has basically tried literally everything else short of mutilating, crippling or lobotomizing the bastard. And we already know that trusting the authorities and judicial system to stop The Joker is futile too, so what else is there? Unless Batman takes initiative and finishes the fight once and for all, he will NEVER succeed in his mission to make Gotham a better place.

 

[Sordid Snake]

I think Selina was more interested in the 'being pursued' part of her relationship with Batman. She would have gotten bored when she got her prize

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It's right there in her name: Catwoman

(Side note about cats and their chasing behavour: When I used a laser pointer to play with my cat, I always ended it by directing the dot to a piece of food that I had placed while she was otherwise occupied chasing that enticing dot. Ending it by not letting her actually catch something would have felt more like taunting than playing)

 

[Kencord]

Fair point, but what else is there? I know that I'm being really harsh, but how else would you go about it? Batman is the most equipped to handle The Joker and he's the one who's had the most chances to actually stop him once and for all. I'm just saying, Batman has basically tried literally everything else short of mutilating, crippling or lobotomizing the bastard. And we already know that trusting the authorities and judicial system to stop The Joker is futile too, so what else is there? Unless Batman takes initiative and finishes the fight once and for all, he will NEVER succeed in his mission to make Gotham a better place.

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And while I agree, I also say that once Batman has Arrested Joker, ANYONE has the skills and equipment to finish the fight too. We're dispassionately discussing murder as armchair generals, we aren't talking about a killing of passion here.

But if the narrative says the law and citizens are useless, so it must be Batman, you ALSO must accept that the same narrative prevents Batman from killing the Joker.

This all also ignores the 'Multiple Jokers', the 'Dimensional Traveler turns his analogs into jokers by accident' thing (I think that was what that story was about), or that while we consider the Joker and Bat monoliths, every comic run and series is insulated. We see hundreds of Joker attacks, realistically any one dimension has had maybe 10 on the high side before a reboot. Still not great but less then the perfectly revolving door Arkam has led us to believe.

 

[Steelplaza]

My solution to the Joker is that he hasn't actually escaped from Arkham that many times, and each time was a unique occasion arising from circumstances that make sense on their own. Moreover, he doesn't actually have any particular goal to kill people and is in some ways less dangerous than many of the people walking around Gotham. His focus is on putting together elaborate, impractical crimes to entertain and astound.

Wait, wait... don't cite continuity! What I mean by "my solution" is that I would simply use that version of the Joker in any DC Universe fanfiction I chose to write, and then everyone could just drop all the Joker killing arguments because I'd say "not in my continuity bub".

 

[Mr Zoat]

My solution to the Joker is that he hasn't actually escaped from Arkham that many times, and each time was a unique occasion arising from circumstances that make sense on their own. Moreover, he doesn't actually have any particular goal to kill people and is in some ways less dangerous than many of the people walking around Gotham. His focus is on putting together elaborate, impractical crimes to entertain and astound.

Wait, wait... don't cite continuity! What I mean by "my solution" is that I would simply use that version of the Joker in any DC Universe fanfiction I chose to write, and then everyone could just drop all the Joker killing arguments because I'd say "not in my continuity bub".

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Congradulations, you just invented Jarvis Poker. I prefer him, too.

 

[Austin Pharos]

She waited until after he dropped his protections to ask him that. I smell deliberancy.

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Can you blame her? Paul has already killed one member of the Justice League because he disagreed with their actions. It's quite prudent for her to be concerned Paul will try to assassinate Batman.

 

[CrazyNoVa]

My solution to the Joker is that he hasn't actually escaped from Arkham that many times, and each time was a unique occasion arising from circumstances that make sense on their own. Moreover, he doesn't actually have any particular goal to kill people and is in some ways less dangerous than many of the people walking around Gotham. His focus is on putting together elaborate, impractical crimes to entertain and astound.

Wait, wait... don't cite continuity! What I mean by "my solution" is that I would simply use that version of the Joker in any DC Universe fanfiction I chose to write, and then everyone could just drop all the Joker killing arguments because I'd say "not in my continuity bub".

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Congradulations, you just invented Jarvis Poker. I prefer him, too.

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So, basically just Cesar Romero Joker, then? I mean, yeah, he's tried to kill someone a few times, but he's still far less homicidal than his mainstream counterpart.

Although, I guess the most monstrous version of The Joker would probably have to be DCAU Joker. I'm saying this because of that one JLA Unlimited episode where he tried to use a TV broadcast with Ace to kill over 70 million people by driving them into a homicidal rage. To give you an idea of how fucked up that is, World War One had approximately 40 million casualties, and what The Joker tried to do in that episode was a terrorist attack that would have resulted in about twice as many deaths. That's a level of carnage that even the darker versions of the Joker like Nolanverse Joker or Injustice Joker could only match in their dreams. Ironic, considering that this is a G-rated Joker from a kids cartoon, isn't it?

 

[xSieg]

"That is a weight off my mind."

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Ha. Talia is rational enough to know OL would absolutely murk a JL member if pushed too much. I wonder how many of them, beyond Batman, understand that? It's pretty funny seeing how most of them try to interact with Paul as colleagues while Batman constantly tries to leash him with guilt or responsibilities so he can stay a bonafide hero.

 

[Mr Zoat]

So, basically just Cesar Romero Joker, then? I mean, yeah, he's tried to kill someone a few times, but he's still far less homicidal than his mainstream counterpart.

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No, Caesar Romero Joker was trying to profit from his crimes, as far as I remember. For Jarvis, the performance is its own reward.

Although, I guess the most monstrous version of The Joker would probably have to be DCAU Joker. I'm saying this because of that one JLA Unlimited episode where he tried to use a TV broadcast with Ace to kill over 70 million people by driving them into a homicidal rage. To give you an idea of how fucked up that is, World War One had approximately 40 million casualties, and what The Joker tried to do in that episode was a terrorist attack that would have resulted in about twice as many deaths. That's a level of carnage that even the darker versions of the Joker like Nolanverse Joker or Injustice Joker could only match in their dreams. Ironic, considering that this is a G-rated Joker from a kids cartoon, isn't it?

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He also drove an orbital laser through Gotham in Batman of the Future, actually killing several thousand people.