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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Reader mode
Mr Hamil and most transgender individuals are not delusional. If a transman says "I am a man" they do not mean that they have male genitalia just as saying that Red Tornado is a robot man does not necessarily imply that Red Tornado has male genitalia. The universe feels no obligation to neatly conform itself to human invented typologies so you get things like platypuses, penguins, a variety of hairless bipeds, individuals that have characteristics of both sexes and the distinction between clinical death and brain death. The meaning of specific words in natural language is fuzzy, changes over time and is dependent on context. You can argue about definitions and word usage but since all words are ultimately made up such arguments need to be done on the basis of practicality and how things will be interpreted by the audience. There should be a reason why you want to use words in a particular way or engage in pedantry.
 
Did you see - they perms-suspended Zoat's account on sv for your final post about transsexuals vs trans people.
 
MrCogmor said:
Mr Hamil and most transgender individuals are not delusional. If a transman says "I am a man" they do not mean that they have male genitalia just as saying that Red Tornado is a robot man does not necessarily imply that Red Tornado has male genitalia. The universe feels no obligation to neatly conform itself to human invented typologies so you get things like platypuses, penguins, a variety of hairless bipeds, individuals that have characteristics of both sexes and the distinction between clinical death and brain death. The meaning of specific words in natural language is fuzzy, changes over time and is dependent on context. You can argue about definitions and word usage but since all words are ultimately made up such arguments need to be done on the basis of practicality and how things will be interpreted by the audience. There should be a reason why you want to use words in a particular way or engage in pedantry.
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Sceptic said:
"Because someone is being wrong on the internet" isn't reason enough?!?
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Please be mindful of rule 8. No discussion of current day politics.
 
I think I may see a bit of a flaw in Zoat's reasoning for burning his bridges with his last SV post and coming here. The rules say that current politics is against the rules. What got Zoat suspended from SV is very much current politics. It all depends on if it means the actual current political system and the people within, or hot button issues like what got Zoat banned that I'm not going to say.

Anyway, his first jump from SB to SV was for a completely bullshit reason that the mods even lied a bit about when defending themselves, this jump from SV to here was quite a bit more of a gray area, so then I can only conclude that if Zoat were to be banned from QQ it would be for something that's actually a pretty huge deal.
 
Just to clarify Poison Pill is term i picked up from my time in MMO's to describe leaving somewhere in a dickish manner.

I originally wanted to link to the story about a man who gets terminally injured and has his brain moved to a helicopter. It was particular relevant as he ends up deciding to be classified as an AI rather than a cyborg in a show of solidarity with oppressed synthetics.
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should have gone with that.

also, and i don't think this was infractionable but here we go, your definition kind of creates the scenario where breast cancer survivors are potentially not women.
 
I can't remember Nabu being referred to with anything but searing hatred, Androids and gynoids do actually have sex (Android comes from Andros, which means male, Gynoid from Gynos for female. They're made in those configurations.) Siskin's spirit pre-Terror Thing assimilation appeared like he did in life, iirc.
 
Sceptic said:
Because they're built with some semblance of gender?
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Also, the very human habit of anthropormism . Why ships, cars, weapons, even tools and instruments get referred to by certain people/languages with a gender or referred to as if they're a living thing.

"She's a beauty ain't she?" Is a well known line in such cases.

Also he/she gives the feeling of being PEOPLE more than it. It's why that planet-lantern is referred to as 'he' rather than it, even though planets have no gender. Stuff like that.
 
Mr Zoat said:
Yes, but given how long it took me to put up the last one I'm really hoping that there's a way to make it easier.
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Seems there is. Anyone who wants a story only thread can press on the top right side of the thread "Reader mode" to get the updates only without any other postings?

Can't link an image for whatever reason but oh well.
 
CrossyCross said:
Also, the very human habit of animism. Why ships, cars, weapons, even tools and instruments get referred to by certain people/languages with a gender or referred to as if they're a living thing.

"She's a beauty ain't she?" Is a well known line in such cases.
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Anthropomorphism, rather than animism. The latter is a religion type.
 
I'm a fan of the webcomic Skin Horse where they have a character whose brain was transferred to a helicopter and he ended up identifying with that to the point that after being put back into a human body he's feeling dysphoria. For a moment I thought Zoat was talking about, but it doesn't fit. It's done respectfully. Most attack helicopter memes are not.
 
MrCogmor said:
Mr Hamil and most transgender individuals are not delusional. If a transman says "I am a man" they do not mean that they have male genitalia just as saying that Red Tornado is a robot man does not necessarily imply that Red Tornado has male genitalia. The universe feels no obligation to neatly conform itself to human invented typologies so you get things like platypuses, penguins, a variety of hairless bipeds, individuals that have characteristics of both sexes and the distinction between clinical death and brain death. The meaning of specific words in natural language is fuzzy, changes over time and is dependent on context. You can argue about definitions and word usage but since all words are ultimately made up such arguments need to be done on the basis of practicality and how things will be interpreted by the audience. There should be a reason why you want to use words in a particular way or engage in pedantry.
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In that case, both arguments should be valid and at most Zoat should have been shamed by a small portion of readers - those 10 or so (at most from what it seemed) who cared about his opinion on the issue, not suspended. Saying that this is the meaning of the word as defined by trans people is different from saying that this is the meaning of the phrase as defined by the actual majority of people. Being as people have pointed out WOKE enough to use proper vocabulary that changes every few years should not be a requirement to be a good writer. While the attack helicopter thing might have gone a bit far - especially if it's a meme, we shouldn't necessitate the use of correct vocabulary - I mean really, since when is transsexual considered an impolite thing to call someone instead of just the semi-scientific term? Likewise remember that Zoat is an atheist and doesn't believe in a soul - therefore the soul doesn't have a gender as far as he is concerned and the only gender that can possibly scientifically matter is the physical, even if someone is uncomfortable with it and wants to be something else.
 
Also in one or both timelines (it has been awhile), OL/Grayven campaigned hard enough for AI rights that, in the US, they are legally "people." So "it" may not be correct, regardless, when the various examples all present one way or the other (and have been referred to accordingly).
 
@Zoat , followed your story here because i really like it and want to know how it progresses. (Does the @-plus-name even work here)

That said, I know myself well enough that i'll soon get curious enough to look what other stories there are around here and i'm far from sure if i'll thank you for that.;)

As for the reason of your move;....
Frankly i'm quite baffled, the whole gender-issue is something that completely went by me until now.
It simply didn't affect me or my friends. (Still doesn't really)

I had to google why people use attack-helicopter in conjunction with that discussion. I'm still baffled after the google-spree, perhaps even more so now.

But that's neither here nor there.
I'm just happy the story goes on.
 
I have a question orange lantern considers Mr.Harris a woman because he currently has a female body despite previously being a man and still considers himself as such yet orange lantern thinks of himself as 30 year old man when he has the body of a seventeen year old isn't that hypocritical?
 
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bobsimmo said:
I've seen many a dysphoric friend get their feelings out on their issues with their... condition, only to get the conversation shut down with "hurr durr Attack Helicopter! get dunked on!" to the extent that they get jumpy at images of the apache.

the worst his Noodly Appendages does is mock the "theirs only one faith all others can die" mentality
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So your experience has people use the attack helicopter to be jerks to trans people more than people use the FSM to be jerks to Christians, fine. Mine is the opposite.

The point is that the two rhetorical devices are very much parallel. They take someone's sincerely held belief, and apply the same principle to something absurd (and NOT sincerely held) to confront the form of the argument.

Do you want me to respect your faith-based belief in the Biblical God? Fine, then you have to respect my faith-based belief in a creature made of spaghetti.

Do you want me to respect your self-identification as a woman? Fine, then you have to respect my self-identification as a non-human vehicle.

I don't have a personal problem with using either of these devices, but my point is that anyone who wants to ban one and sees no problem with the other, is clearly not being ideologically neutral. It's the typical double standard.
 
Biigoh said:
Hello, this is ye olde friendly mod reminder.

Since you're new on the site please be aware that QQ does have a no current day politics thing. And gender politics does count for such.

Posting stories where stuff like politics happen because they're part of a story and not a soapbox platform to expound on politics from, is fine... but discussions of current day politics isn't.

You can check out the rules here - https://forum.questionablequesting.com/threads/rules.1/
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Mquz said:
In that case, both arguments should be valid and at most Zoat should have been shamed by a small portion of readers - those 10 or so (at most from what it seemed) who cared about his opinion on the issue, not suspended. Saying that this is the meaning of the word as defined by trans people is different from saying that this is the meaning of the phrase as defined by the actual majority of people. Being as people have pointed out WOKE enough to use proper vocabulary that changes every few years should not be a requirement to be a good writer. While the attack helicopter thing might have gone a bit far - especially if it's a meme, we shouldn't necessitate the use of correct vocabulary - I mean really, since when is transsexual considered an impolite thing to call someone instead of just the semi-scientific term? Likewise remember that Zoat is an atheist and doesn't believe in a soul - therefore the soul doesn't have a gender as far as he is concerned and the only gender that can possibly scientifically matter is the physical, even if someone is uncomfortable with it and wants to be something else.
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9adam4 said:
So your experience has people use the attack helicopter to be jerks to trans people more than people use the FSM to be jerks to Christians, fine. Mine is the opposite.

The point is that the two rhetorical devices are very much parallel. They take someone's sincerely held belief, and apply the same principle to something absurd (and NOT sincerely held) to confront the form of the argument.

Do you want me to respect your faith-based belief in the Biblical God? Fine, then you have to respect my faith-based belief in a creature made of spaghetti.

Do you want me to respect your self-identification as a woman? Fine, then you have to respect my self-identification as a non-human vehicle.

I don't have a personal problem with using either of these devices, but my point is that anyone who wants to ban one and sees no problem with the other, is clearly not being ideologically neutral. It's the typical double standard.
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Queshire said:
I'm a fan of the webcomic Skin Horse where they have a character whose brain was transferred to a helicopter and he ended up identifying with that to the point that after being put back into a human body he's feeling dysphoria. For a moment I thought Zoat was talking about, but it doesn't fit. It's done respectfully. Most attack helicopter memes are not.
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That sounds like the one. I can't find links to the particular bits I remember reading, though.

I suppose that the point of differentiation is that while many people might say that identifying as another sex is wrong because identifying as a helicopter is wrong, I think that identifying as a helicopter is every bit as valid as identifying as another sex. Ideally, a person could be whatever they want to be. The fact that we don't have the technology for some of the things people want to be doesn't have any relation to the validity of that desire.

As they said in Life of Brian, you can have a right to do a thing which is physically impossible for you to do.

On a slightly more Young Justice note, I thought that Victor Stone's transformation was much better here that in the Justice League animated film. And now you all know what those ploongs sounded like!
 
MrCogmor said:
Mr Hamil and most transgender individuals are not delusional.
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Most young adults identifying as gender fluid or transgender today, are not actially suffering from gender dysphoria. They are responding to a trend.

The unwillingness of many to distinguish between those actually suffering from a brain-body mismatch (who need our support and care), and people who just want to put others off by messing around with their wardrobes and pronouns, is a big part of the problem.

The idea that even mentioning this is "hateful" and "transphobic" is a bigger part of the problem.
 
Mr Zoat said:
That sounds like the one. I can't find links to the particular bits I remember reading, though.

I suppose that the point of differentiation is that while many people might say that identifying as another sex is wrong because identifying as a helicopter is wrong, I think that identifying as a helicopter is every bit as valid as identifying as another sex. Ideally, a person could be whatever they want to be. The fact that we don't have the technology for some of the things people want to be doesn't have any relation to the validity of that desire.

As they said in Life of Brian, you can have a right to do a thing which is physically impossible for you to do.

On a slightly more Young Justice note, I thought that Victor Stone's transformation was much better here that in the Justice League animated film.
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Sure, and the swastika is a buddhist holy symbol rotated 45 degrees.

Honestly in a transhumanist space future I'd love to try out what being a space ship would be like. I do agree with you. I really do, but that still doesn't mean that it wasn't a bad idea.
 
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