With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Dur'id the Druid]

Battletech on the other hand is simultaneously too serious and too stupid. You have mechs? I have aircraft with nuclear anti-mech missiles. You have dropships? I copied the Clans and built actual warships, and there went your economy.

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The age of the Battlemech came around explicitly alongside the point where nukes and ortillery became severely restricted by interstellar treaty on account of too many worlds winding up cinders. And they persist largely on a combination of institutional/cultural inertia, a lack of capacity/knowledge to effectively retool, and so forth.

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Weren't they also construction equipment as well? They are simply very versatile and modular. And combine mechs with squads of power-armor, and you have a very effective combined arms miltary. Might not have the speed of anything with treads or wheels, but they can go over torn up ground and navigate cities much easier.

Plus the same factory can be used for both military mechs and construction mechs. *shrug *

 

[Vaermina]

In every practical sense you are correct. Anything you could do with a battlemech you could do with conventional armor or aircraft for cheaper. About the only thing you can get away with is that with the neurohelmet interface you can get away crewing a machine with that level of firepower with a single crewman rather then a team you'd need something from modern day, and even that's a stretch since Battletech has the same equipment used in some tanks, and some mechs make room for a gunner seat.

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In most worlds he would be correct, in Battletech he is not.

See, myomer is the reason BattleMechs are just out right better then tanks. Because of the material's efficiency, it allows more armor and weapons per ton then you would get from conventional armor or aircraft.

 

[Someguy Somewhere]

It makes it effective for replication of muscle for walkers true, but a simple camshaft system could be used to convert that compression strength to rotational movement, and thus drive conventional transmission systems for both tracked and wheeled craft, along with prop driven aircraft...turbine aircraft get by by direct feeds on Battletech's pocket fusion engines.

Though that does point out that battletech's retro future tech has some weird holes in it for development.

 

[ForeverShogo]

I feel like one of the only settings that really tried to justify their existence was maybe Universal Century Gundam, where the Minovsky Particle seriously fucks with a lot of the things that allow modern warfare as we currently understand it.

Well, that and the fact they were originally developed in space where the have the advantage of the AMBAC system. Which uses limb rotation as a more efficient, fuel saving measure to rotate the mech in space instead of using thrusters as you would on a space fighter. With that kind of limb rotation for maneuverability purposes actually being something we've proven that insects, such as beetles, do to quickly rotate while flying.

I mean . . . There are still going to be issues with using mecha, but it's still better than most settings.

 

[Vaermina]

It makes it effective for replication of muscle for walkers true, but a simple camshaft system could be used to convert that compression strength to rotational movement, and thus drive conventional transmission systems for both tracked and wheeled craft, along with prop driven aircraft...turbine aircraft get by by direct feeds on Battletech's pocket fusion engines.

Though that does point out that battletech's retro future tech has some weird holes in it for development.

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Maybe it could, but the fact that they don't suggest there's practical issues that make such a system unworkable.

Mind, you also have to take into account cost per tonnage. Because Battletech does build tanks. And the best case scenario with those is comparable tonnage for millions more C-bills per unit, with maybe thirty percent the firepower, and a lot less armor.

 

[Azure Mirage]

When it comes to Mecha, Rule of Cool applies. Though with the lore dumps I read, I would still want to see Paul in a Mecha setting. Just to see the frustration at trying to sort out the local Mecha loons.

 

[Vaermina]

When it comes to Mecha, Rule of Cool applies. Though with the lore dumps I read, I would still want to see Paul in a Mecha setting. Just to see the frustration at trying to sort out the local Mecha loons.

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No point, Zoat imports laws of physics so the actual reasoning for everything kind of goes out the window.

 

[Someguy Somewhere]

At some point, most giant fighting robot stories come off like this time me.

Spoiler: Everyone has their Kink

 

[Ina_Meishou]

Strong emotions in the post. Whether or not this is true on the facts, for me the emotional valence is the other way. I'm not invested in the SI being able to continue to call himself a god, even if perhaps there are good reasons to continue the charade. I'm not going to get angry about it, like a slight on him is a slight on me as a reader or particularly empathize with him about it. Undermining him in this way was a strategically sloppy choice, but it wasn't offensive. It's hard for me to understand how you can read the chapter and do the posting equivalent of getting all red in the face and shouting "how dare you".

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Try this thought then.

You're the Tau'ri, and your world is in a bad spot. It's a single world under threat by a civilization of vastly larger scale, higher technology, and deeper logistical depth. And that larger civilization is known to be highly aggressive and to be run by egotistical psychotics.

Now, you've found one member of this larger civilization who is:
A: Clearly aware of your world, including modern idiom and cultural referents.
B: Not aggressive.
C: Willing to peacefully interact with you, even to the extent of inviting you into positions of influence in his domains.
D: Apparently not interested in tattling on you or sharing his knowledge of your world with the rest of his civilization.

And the fucking idiot who you sent to that position of influence within his domain gets caught questioning the fundamental basis for his government structure and insulting his species.

Even from the 'emotional valence' of the Tau'ri, that's a serious reason to be rather pointedly annoyed at the moron they sent to that position. Especially since by doing so, it creates an opportunity for said being to reinforce their position (which you as Tau'ri obviously do want to undermine eventually).

This incident will make the Tau'ri look like prejudicial assholes who abuse hospitality and undermine their allies. And it will make Mammon look like a benevolent and reasonable god who takes heresy and personal insult as an opportunity for gentle and public instruction. Which is directly antithetical to the SGC's long term goal of dismantling the Goa'uld as a society.

Teacher-lady just strengthened Mammon's position and prestige, but did it in a way that sacrificed her own rep and the rep of the group she represents. And she did it for free, not as part of a quid-pro-quo agreed upon ahead of time for some trade off on Mammon's part.

 

[Galler]

I hate to be that guy but I think the discussions on mecha belongs in its own thread or over DM's.

 

[Vaermina]

Try this thought then.

You're the Tau'ri, and your world is in a bad spot. It's a single world under threat by a civilization of vastly larger scale, higher technology, and deeper logistical depth. And that larger civilization is known to be highly aggressive and to be run by egotistical psychotics.

Now, you've found one member of this larger civilization who is:
A: Clearly aware of your world, including modern idiom and cultural referents.
B: Not aggressive.
C: Willing to peacefully interact with you, even to the extent of inviting you into positions of influence in his domains.
D: Apparently not interested in tattling on you or sharing his knowledge of your world with the rest of his civilization.

And the fucking idiot who you sent to that position of influence within his domain gets caught questioning the fundamental basis for his government structure and insulting his species.

Even from the 'emotional valence' of the Tau'ri, that's a serious reason to be rather pointedly annoyed at the moron they sent to that position. Especially since by doing so, it creates an opportunity for said being to reinforce their position (which you as Tau'ri obviously do want to undermine eventually).

This incident will make the Tau'ri look like prejudicial assholes who abuse hospitality and undermine their allies. And it will make Mammon look like a benevolent and reasonable god who takes heresy and personal insult as an opportunity for gentle and public instruction. Which is directly antithetical to the SGC's long term goal of dismantling the Goa'uld as a society.

Teacher-lady just strengthened Mammon's position and prestige, but did it in a way that sacrificed her own rep and the rep of the group she represents. And she did it for free, not as part of a quid-pro-quo agreed upon ahead of time for some trade off on Mammon's part.

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You're assigning a lot more care to this then the SGC likely did.

 

[Fallen Gods Rise]

I'm kind of hoping Mammon doesn't just point out that trying to undermine his society by preaching against his godhood to toddlers is unethical, and that she should debate him in the open if she wants to discuss that. But that she used an ethnic slur while talking about him behind his back.

Because when you come at it from the idea that snake-head is a slur based on his race which seems reasonable to me it becomes both difficult and hilarious for the SGC to have to defend it.

The military might not care about it but Daniel would be torn between his morals and disgust and Hammond is political enough to see that it potentially changes the narrative from simply different views shared with poor judgement.

 

[Ina_Meishou]

You're assigning a lot more care to this then the SGC likely did.

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Sure, the SGC has a sustained pattern of that.

The point was to indicate to the poster I quoted why this isn't just a screwup from a protagonist centric 'they aren't letting the protagonist roleplay being a god' perspective. It's a genuine diplomatic gaff, whether the SGC will in story notice they made it or not.

 

[Vaermina]

Sure, the SGC has a sustained pattern of that.

The point was to indicate to the poster I quoted why this isn't just a screwup from a protagonist centric 'they aren't letting the protagonist roleplay being a god' perspective. It's a genuine diplomatic gaff, whether the SGC will in story notice they made it or not.

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It's not a diplomatic gaff.

The people they sent to "Mammom"s world wouldn't be diplomats, they would be sacrificial spies who they fully expect to get snaked.

 

[Galler]

It's not a diplomatic gaff.

The people they sent to "Mammom"s world wouldn't be diplomats, they would be sacrificial spies who they fully expect to get snaked.

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That would be very out of character for anyone on the earth side. Why would earth send people to die deliberately?

 

[Vaermina]

That would be very out of character for anyone on the earth side. Why would earth send people to die deliberately?

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They're sending their people to teach on a Goa'uld held world under a reigning Goa'uld.

Normal expectation would be the SGC wouldn't do that because the Goa'uld just snaking them would be too much of a risk.

But that's off the table because Zoat wrote them showing up there. Which means we gotta reason out what type of people the SGC would be willing to send to such a situation. And the only answer to that, is people with no real value who know functionally nothing.

Hell, they wouldn't even have been allowed to know any Earth gate addresses or GDO codes.

 

[Cuchulin]

To be fair, a lot of the Goa'uld system lords pretend they're a god for definitions that are more specifically wrong: omniscient, immortal-as-in-unkillable, to the extent they can't achieve anything they want reflects only the opposition of other 'gods'. That's actually (retconned into being) a big part of Teal'c's defection: that he was able to lie to Apophis and not be caught disproved the beliefs Apophis and Cronus had tried to teach him. There's a lower-level of god that would met their abilities, since they're still extremely strong, long-lived, have access to special tech, so on, but even Yu and Ba'al set their claims much higher than that.

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In my favorite Stargate fics Teal'c reasoning on abandoning Apophis was that Apophis was a false (Oath breaking/unworthy) god and not a false (fake) god, if only because Apophis is still powerful enough and close enough to being immortal that he might as well be a god.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Next

"About nine thousand years ago, System Lord Ra came across a world in his territory. The world had no name, as no System Lord had felt the need to name it and the primitive inhabitants had no real concept of 'world' or 'worlds'. In time, the world would come to be known to their descendants as 'Earth', and the people as 'humans'. Ra found that these people, your ancestors, made excellent servants, workers and warriors, and so he uplifted them, taking a portion of them to live on the worlds that he controlled. He then made pacts with other System Lords, each one being granted dominion over one part of Earth and the right to move its people into their domains. In exchange, they hailed him as Supreme System Lord and master of the galaxy."

"Humans were transported to thousands of worlds across the stars, granted lands to farm and mine. In return, they hailed those who took them there, granted them safety and order, as their gods. A few centuries later, on a world called Dakara, the greatest-" I nod at the Second Prime. "-of human warriors and their families were brought even closer to their gods when the first jaffa were created, humans granted great strength, long life and immunity to disease and poison by their gods in exchange for fighting in their service and carrying their infants in their abdominal pouches."

I focus on Mrs. Duxley.

"Is any of what I just said untrue?"

She hesitates.

I give her a small smile and a shrug. "Missus Duxley, you are not one of my people. Regardless of what you say, the worst I will do is send you home. Answer freely."

"That-. That's.. probably true as far as I know. I hadn't heard of Dakara, but I… Guess that jaffa had to come from somewhere. But that doesn't make you gods."

"The fact that we have entire worlds worshipping us doesn't make us gods."

She takes a breath, draws her self up and looks me straight in the eyes.

"No."

"Alright. What would?"

"Excuse me?"

"You're using the word 'god', so presumably you're attaching certain characteristics to it. How would you define a god?"

She shakes her head. "I'm a Christian. I don't define 'a' god in the sense of an actual thing because there aren't any. A god is a fictional being worshipped by people."

"And I'm not a god because I'm not fictional?"

"You're not a god because you're a… You're a three foot long serpentine parasite attached to that man's brain."

"And Jesus Christ was just a Jewish architect?"

"No, he's the son of God."

"No, come on. That's not how the Trinity works. Even I know that. He was at once the son of God and your god himself, a god made mortal to walk amongst mankind as one of them, to suffer and die as they do."

"That-. You.. should probably talk to a priest. And you're still a parasite."

"Technically, true." I tilt my head back and command Am-heh to crawl out of my mouth. Ow. I make my eyes go vacant as construct Am-heh wiggles at the crowd. For the humans it's the first time they've seen something like this. For the jaffa the only puzzling thing is why 'I'm' orange. Then I pull Am-heh back in. "But is that necessarily all that I am?"

"Yes, because you're not God."

I smile, bowing my head. "Ah, Christianity. You do realise that the Abrahamic religions are a product of folk memories of Ra and El, don't you? Ra's dead, but I can take you to meet El if you like. And his wife, Asherah."

She shakes her head. "The goa'uld left Earth three thousand years ago. Christianity is two thousand years old."

"And was it invented full cloth, or did it draw upon earlier traditions?"

"It-. Early on, it drew on Jewish traditions."

"Ah, there you are. But please don't be offended. I'm not singling your religion out. We were on Earth for six thousand years. There isn't much in Earth religion that isn't related to us."

"I don't need to add anything to 'parasite' to understand what you are. God is all-knowing and all-powerful and he created the universe. You're not, you aren't and you didn't."

I lean back in my chair. "What do you know about goa'uld genetic memory?"

"You.. know everything that your parents knew."

"Ah, everything that our mothers choose to pass on. And because that was true of their parents as well, all the way back to our original home, I have hundreds of thousands of years of memories. Given time, I can build almost any device used in goa'uld space. I have memories of hundreds of civilisations, thousands of species, millions of conversations with people and peoples long dead. I can call them to mind nearly as easily as I can talk to you now. I can concentrate a little and see any part of this world. With a little effort I can see any part of this star system-."

"With technology you try and tell people is 'magic'."

"That's just two different labels for the same thing. When we first encountered humans they didn't have the slightest notion of how our devices work. The word in that early language essentially translates as 'magic', and they kept using it even as we explained how to use it. I'll admit, we haven't been the best at explaining things, but that's not something that any goa'uld has ever had to do for another goa'uld because we're born knowing things like that. So we use a word that makes it sound like some sort of 'spiritually elevated mystery' and you use one that makes a quantum communicator sound like a door hinge." I shrug. "It's literally semantics. We're talking about the same thing. What's the difference?"

"The implication that they can only use it because you let them, whereas technology is something anyone can learn how it works."

"Do you know how your personal computer works?"

"Not in detail, but plenty of people do."

"Ah, of course. So, in summary, I'm a member of species that lives for thousands of years, knows more about everything than your entire species, is responsible for spreading humans to thousands of worlds, has devices that can do things you can't comprehend and is literally worshipped by a religion. Yes?"

"It's not that simpl-."

"Yes?"

"… Yes."

"And to you that doesn't say 'god' because your religion says that gods other than yours don't exist. But to my people it says 'god'. There's no practical disagreement, you're just applying a different label." I mock-frown at her. "And being weirdly insistent on it."

She takes a moment to assemble a reply. "I suppose you could look at it like that."

I smile at the crowd. I think that we've left them a little behind, but the court recorder is dutifully writing everything down. "Good! Good. So, in conclusion-."

I get up and walk up to Kasrin's mother before crouching down and smiling at Kasrin. She doesn't really respond.

"So, in conclusion, I'm both a 'god' and a 'snakehead', because those are one and the same thing. Do you understand?"

She shakes her head.

"Well, maybe you will one day." I reach out and gently pat her on the head. "Thank you for coming here today, Kasrin. Kiss your dolly for me, okay?"

"'kay."

I straighten up and smile at Mrs. Duxley.

"Thank you for coming. Please, return to your school. I'll have the letter for you to pass on to your superior later."

 

[Idkusername]

Whatever else is going on in Paulmon's world and however competent he might be in other areas - this is shit PR. Neurotypicals will not take away the message you want to impart from this speech.

 

[Darko]

Ra found that these people, your ancestors, made excellent servants, workers and warriors, and so he uplifted them

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"Uplift" isn't necessarily the word most would use.

in exchange for fighting in their service and carrying their infants in their abdominal pouches."

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And becoming dependent on them to live.

She shakes her head. "The goa'uld left Earth three thousand years ago. Christianity is two thousand years old."

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But it has been influenced by several other religions from the area.

"It-. Early on, it drew on Jewish traditions

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Which also drew on other traditions.

I'll admit, we haven't been the best at explaining things,

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Probably because the Goa'uld don't want humans to get more advanced because then their next rebellion will be even more bloody.

Honestly the mention of the benefits of genetic memory made me think of an ATLA/SG crossover where a Goa'uld scientist says that the genetic memory wasn't a natural thing for them, and that it apparently actually damaged their development since being born knowing practically everything about the world around you means your curiosity wouldn't really develop, so the Goa'uld are stagnating.

 

[Trickster2002]

I honestly love this Stargate-insert more than I do the Young Justice story!

This latest post is particularly interesting. I'm binge-watching the show now, and I notice that the Goa'uld make a lot of dumb moves. I really like how Paul-mon is engaging SGC in a political battle rather than the classic Goa'uld "wage war and crush them." Your take on Stargate is fascinating and I look forward to reading more.

 

[Nianque]

I honestly love this Stargate-insert more than I do the Young Justice story!

This latest post is particularly interesting. I'm binge-watching the show now, and I notice that the Goa'uld make a lot of dumb moves. I really like how Paul-mon is engaging SGC in a political battle rather than the classic Goa'uld "wage war and crush them." Your take on Stargate is fascinating and I look forward to reading more.

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Agreed. Finding this more interesting than recent Young Justice parts. Might be because I'm a Stargate fan and not a Young Justice fan though.

 

[Z000]

i wonder how much of a debate this would have started back in ye day had this been an actual SG episode

 

[joha4270]

I have never seen an episode of Stargate before and have also been enjoying these.

If I had to analyse, it's probably anti-life. The main story has been anti-life this, anti-life that and while it is a big event that will inevitably have big consequences felt for a long time, it's getting very stale.
These episodes are a breath of fresh air.

 

[Turalon94]

I did not know I needed more star gate in my life but now I am re watching the series just because of this. Please keep this going.

 

[Chojin Patriarch]

Next

"About nine thousand years ago, System Lord Ra came across a world in his territory. The world had no name, as no System Lord had felt the need to name it and the primitive inhabitants had no real concept of 'world' or 'worlds'. In time, the world would come to be known to their descendants as 'Earth', and the people as 'humans'. Ra found that these people, your ancestors, made excellent servants, workers and warriors, and so he uplifted them, taking a portion of them to live on the worlds that he controlled. He then made pacts with other System Lords, each one being granted dominion over one part of Earth and the right to move its people into their domains. In exchange, they hailed him as Supreme System Lord and master of the galaxy."

Click to shrink...

Not inaccurate, since the 'uplift' was not entirely willing on the human's part. But Paulmon's painting it as a noble, higher power choosing a worthy people and guiding them into greathood. How many religions have things like that as a central tenet, again?

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

"Humans were transported to thousands of worlds across the stars, granted lands to farm and mine. In return, they hailed those who took them there, granted them safety and order, as their gods. A few centuries later, on a world called Dakara, the greatest-" I nod at the Second Prime. "-of human warriors and their families were brought even closer to their gods when the first jaffa were created, humans granted great strength, long life and immunity to disease and poison by their gods in exchange for fighting in their service and carrying their infants in their abdominal pouches."

Click to shrink...

And talking up the worthiness of his soldiers, of course. Though admitting that the goa'uld symbiote is an 'infant god' might be a little controversial. Then again, that's what the Jaffa are told, is it not?

I focus on Mrs. Duxley.

"Is any of what I just said untrue?"

Click to shrink...

"...From a certain point of view." Shush, Obi-Wan.

She hesitates.

I give her a small smile and a shrug. "Missus Duxley, you are not one of my people. Regardless of what you say, the worst I will do is send you home. Answer freely."

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Which is parsecs more permissive than many of his colleagues would allow.

"That-. That's.. probably true as far as I know. I hadn't heard of Dakara, but I… Guess that jaffa had to come from somewhere. But that doesn't make you gods."

"The fact that we have entire worlds worshipping us doesn't make us gods."

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To quote someone upthread...

Omnipresence? He can teleport anywhere he needs to be in an instant.
Omniscience? He can know anything he wants so long as his Ring isn't blocked by Plot Armor.
Omnipotence? There isn't anything his Ring can't do as long as he wants it hard enough.

Click to shrink...

Hard to argue he isn't a god with performance like that.

She takes a breath, draws her self up and looks me straight in the eyes.

"No."

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Ooh, courageous, to beard the serpent in his lair. (The second verb meaning, to confront and/or oppose)

"Alright. What would?"

"Excuse me?"

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Heh. Nice legalistic trick. Get her to define the term as she means it, and show how you meet all the criteria.

"You're using the word 'god', so presumably you're attaching certain characteristics to it. How would you define a god?"

She shakes her head. "I'm a Christian. I don't define 'a' god in the sense of an actual thing because there aren't any. A god is a fictional being worshipped by people."

Click to shrink...

...Ah. And there we see one of the issues, then.

"And I'm not a god because I'm not fictional?"

"You're not a god because you're a… You're a three foot long serpentine parasite attached to that man's brain."

Click to shrink...

And for any regular Goa'uld host, that would be accurate.

"And Jesus Christ was just a Jewish architect?"

"No, he's the son of God."

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He can be both. Had to do something until the divinity woke up, after all.

"No, come on. That's not how the trinity works. Even I know that. He was at once the son of God and your god himself, a god made mortal to walk amongst mankind as one of them, to suffer and die as they do."

"That-. You.. should probably talk to a priest. And you're still a parasite."

Click to shrink...

In Paulmon's defence he is technically an atheist himself, and his knowledge of bible canon is probably a bit fuzzy, yes.

"Technically, true." I tilt my head back and command Am-heh to crawl out of my mouth. Ow. I make my eyes go vacant as construct Am-heh wiggles at the crowd. For the humans it's the first time they've seen something like this. For the jaffa the only puzzling thing is why 'I'm' orange. Then I pull Am-heh back in. "But is that necessarily all that I am?"

"Yes, because you're not God."

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Bet that got a few gasps from the rubes. Though Bastet will be interested to know how he managed it. Probably be explained as 'An illusion. My symbiote I never actually left its my rightful place.'

I smile, bowing my head. "Ah, Christianity. You do realise that the Abrahamic religions are a product of folk memories of Ra and El, don't you? Ra's dead, but I can take you to meet El if you like. And his wife, Asherah."

She shakes her head. "The goa'uld left Earth three thousand years ago. Christianity is two thousand years old."

Click to shrink...

Few religions spring fully formed from the mind of a single creator. Those that do... Usually said creator is very charismatic and persuasive.

"And was it invented full cloth, or did it draw upon earlier traditions?"

"It-. Early on, it drew on Jewish traditions."

Click to shrink...

Entirely true. The classical Bible is even an adapted version of the Hebrew holy books with some editing and some new bits. Though discussion of it might be beyond the bounds of this thread, so let's leave it at that?

"Ah, there you are. But please don't be offended. I'm not singling your religion out. We were on Earth for six thousand years. There isn't much in Earth religion that isn't related to us."

"I don't need to add anything to 'parasite' to understand what you are. God is all-knowing and all-powerful and he created the universe. You're not, you aren't and you didn't."

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Ah, and now he refutes her argument, hmm?

I lean back in my chair. "What do you know about goa'uld genetic memory?"

"You.. know everything that your parents knew."

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Well, at least they know that much.

"Ah, everything that my mother chose to pass on. And because that was true of their parents as well, all the way back to our original home, I have hundreds of thousands of years of memories. Given time, I can build almost any device used in goa'uld space. I have memories of hundreds of civilisations, thousands of species, millions of conversations with people and peoples long dead. I can call them to mind nearly as easily as I can talk to you now. I can concentrate a little and see any part of this world. With a little effort I can see any part of this star system-."

Click to shrink...

Time and the resources. It's not like a Goa'uld can build a warp drive out of rocks directly.

"With technology you try and tell people is 'magic'."

"That's just two different labels for the same thing. When we first encountered humans they didn't have the slightest notion of how our devices work. The word in that early language essentially translates as 'magic', and they kept using it even as we explained how to use it. I'll admit, we haven't been the best at explaining things, but that's not something that any goa'uld has ever had to do for another goa'uld because we're born knowing things like that. So we use a word that makes it sound like some sort of 'spiritually elevated mystery' and you use one that makes a quantum communicator sound like a door hinge." I shrug. "It's literally semantics. We're talking about the same thing. What's the difference?"

Click to shrink...

Clarke's Third Law. Or to put it another way: One man's magic is another's advanced science.

"The implication that they can only use it because you let them, whereas technology is something anyone can learn how it works."

"Do you know how your personal computer works?"

Click to shrink...

And not just in the 'move mouse, press buttons, see results' angle, either. Modern technology is rather arcane to those not learned in its principles...

"Not in detail, but plenty of people do."

"Ah, of course. So, in summary, I'm a member of species that lives for thousands of years, knows more about everything that your entire species, is responsible for spreading humans to thousands of worlds, has devices that can do things you can't comprehend and is literally worshipped by a religion. Yes?"

Click to shrink...

"If someone asks if you're a God, Ray... You say 'YES'!" Turns out the Goa'uld follow that logic well.

"It's not that simpl-."

"Yes?"

"… Yes."

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Joy of being able to apply a bit of intimidation to prevent 'qualifying' arguments... "Yes, but..." "It's not that simple..." "Well, actually..." So annoying when people try that stuff to avoid giving an inch.

"And to you that doesn't say 'god' because your religion says that gods other than yours don't exist. But to my people it says 'god'. There's no practical disagreement, you're just applying a different label." I mock-frown at her. "And being weirdly insistent on it."

She takes a moment to assemble a reply. "I suppose you could look at it like that."

Click to shrink...

If they're happy to call him a god, whatever the reason, then he's a god. It's that easy. The problem is largely that earlier Goa'uld didn't give people the option of debating the point.

I smile at the crowd. I think that we've left them a little behind, but the court recorder is dutifully writing everything down. "Good! Good. So, in conclusion-."

I get up and walk up to Kasrin's mother before crouching down and smiling at Kasrin. She doesn't really respond.

Click to shrink...

Probably confused by all the grown-up talk. Most kids probably tune out when adults start talking about things the kid doesn't understand much.

"So, in conclusion, I'm both a 'god' and a 'snakehead', because those are one and the same thing. Do you understand?"

She shakes her head.

Click to shrink...

Hah. Well, it'll make sense when you're older and wiser...

"Well, maybe you will one day." I reach out and gently pat her on the head. "Thank you for coming here today, Kasrin. Kiss your dolly for me, okay?"

"'kay."

Click to shrink...

See, now that command, she can get behind.

I straighten up and smile at Mrs. Duxley.

"Thank you for coming. Please, return to your school. I'll have the letter for you to pass on to your superior later."

Click to shrink...

And it had better be passed on, or he might get irritated.

Not exactly the greatest debate in the history of the System Lords, but neither participant was especially talented in that respect, Paulmon's showmanship aside. Still, he got some measure of agreement out of the lady, and set a precedent about certain derogatory terms visitors might use for Goa'uld. Now, how will Bastet react to hearing of this discussion...

 

[hance1986]

I honestly love this Stargate-insert more than I do the Young Justice story!

This latest post is particularly interesting. I'm binge-watching the show now, and I notice that the Goa'uld make a lot of dumb moves. I really like how Paul-mon is engaging SGC in a political battle rather than the classic Goa'uld "wage war and crush them." Your take on Stargate is fascinating and I look forward to reading more.

Click to shrink...

Completely agree. This whole thing is so wrong and yet I'm captivated. The Goa'uld are slanted towards greed so Mammon is just speccing that way and helping them be better gods.

I kind of want a cutaway to the SGC briefing room and Hammond and SG-1 listening to a recording of Mammon's quietly insane speech and their reactions. Because this is actually more dangerous than if Mammon was just another snakehead trying to kill them. Because this speech indicates Mammon will not roll like a cartoon villain.

With what has been said about Goa'uld and their racial memory and affinity with advanced technology which was mentioned here, Paul accepting buffing Bastet and her side because he identifies with them enough to do his own Sim Civilization thing is what I see. This conversation with the teacher has reinforced his position, not weakened it. A long elegant explanation of things his humans and Jaffa only understand parts of has washed over them and seemingly binds them closer to him.

 

[Vaermina]

Next

"About nine thousand years ago, System Lord Ra came across a world in his territory. The world had no name, as no System Lord had felt the need to name it and the primitive inhabitants had no real concept of 'world' or 'worlds'. In time, the world would come to be known to their descendants as 'Earth', and the people as 'humans'. Ra found that these people, your ancestors, made excellent servants, workers and warriors, and so he uplifted them, taking a portion of them to live on the worlds that he controlled. He then made pacts with other System Lords, each one being granted dominion over one part of Earth and the right to move its people into their domains. In exchange, they hailed him as Supreme System Lord and master of the galaxy."

"Humans were transported to thousands of worlds across the stars, granted lands to farm and mine. In return, they hailed those who took them there, granted them safety and order, as their gods. A few centuries later, on a world called Dakara, the greatest-" I nod at the Second Prime. "-of human warriors and their families were brought even closer to their gods when the first jaffa were created, humans granted great strength, long life and immunity to disease and poison by their gods in exchange for fighting in their service and carrying their infants in their abdominal pouches."

I focus on Mrs. Duxley.

"Is any of what I just said untrue?"

She hesitates.

I give her a small smile and a shrug. "Missus Duxley, you are not one of my people. Regardless of what you say, the worst I will do is send you home. Answer freely."

"That-. That's.. probably true as far as I know. I hadn't heard of Dakara, but I… Guess that jaffa had to come from somewhere. But that doesn't make you gods."

"The fact that we have entire worlds worshipping us doesn't make us gods."

She takes a breath, draws her self up and looks me straight in the eyes.

"No."

"Alright. What would?"

"Excuse me?"

"You're using the word 'god', so presumably you're attaching certain characteristics to it. How would you define a god?"

She shakes her head. "I'm a Christian. I don't define 'a' god in the sense of an actual thing because there aren't any. A god is a fictional being worshipped by people."

"And I'm not a god because I'm not fictional?"

"You're not a god because you're a… You're a three foot long serpentine parasite attached to that man's brain."

"And Jesus Christ was just a Jewish architect?"

"No, he's the son of God."

"No, come on. That's not how the trinity works. Even I know that. He was at once the son of God and your god himself, a god made mortal to walk amongst mankind as one of them, to suffer and die as they do."

"That-. You.. should probably talk to a priest. And you're still a parasite."

"Technically, true." I tilt my head back and command Am-heh to crawl out of my mouth. Ow. I make my eyes go vacant as construct Am-heh wiggles at the crowd. For the humans it's the first time they've seen something like this. For the jaffa the only puzzling thing is why 'I'm' orange. Then I pull Am-heh back in. "But is that necessarily all that I am?"

"Yes, because you're not God."

I smile, bowing my head. "Ah, Christianity. You do realise that the Abrahamic religions are a product of folk memories of Ra and El, don't you? Ra's dead, but I can take you to meet El if you like. And his wife, Asherah."

She shakes her head. "The goa'uld left Earth three thousand years ago. Christianity is two thousand years old."

"And was it invented full cloth, or did it draw upon earlier traditions?"

"It-. Early on, it drew on Jewish traditions."

"Ah, there you are. But please don't be offended. I'm not singling your religion out. We were on Earth for six thousand years. There isn't much in Earth religion that isn't related to us."

"I don't need to add anything to 'parasite' to understand what you are. God is all-knowing and all-powerful and he created the universe. You're not, you aren't and you didn't."

I lean back in my chair. "What do you know about goa'uld genetic memory?"

"You.. know everything that your parents knew."

"Ah, everything that my mother chose to pass on. And because that was true of their parents as well, all the way back to our original home, I have hundreds of thousands of years of memories. Given time, I can build almost any device used in goa'uld space. I have memories of hundreds of civilisations, thousands of species, millions of conversations with people and peoples long dead. I can call them to mind nearly as easily as I can talk to you now. I can concentrate a little and see any part of this world. With a little effort I can see any part of this star system-."

"With technology you try and tell people is 'magic'."

"That's just two different labels for the same thing. When we first encountered humans they didn't have the slightest notion of how our devices work. The word in that early language essentially translates as 'magic', and they kept using it even as we explained how to use it. I'll admit, we haven't been the best at explaining things, but that's not something that any goa'uld has ever had to do for another goa'uld because we're born knowing things like that. So we use a word that makes it sound like some sort of 'spiritually elevated mystery' and you use one that makes a quantum communicator sound like a door hinge." I shrug. "It's literally semantics. We're talking about the same thing. What's the difference?"

"The implication that they can only use it because you let them, whereas technology is something anyone can learn how it works."

"Do you know how your personal computer works?"

"Not in detail, but plenty of people do."

"Ah, of course. So, in summary, I'm a member of species that lives for thousands of years, knows more about everything that your entire species, is responsible for spreading humans to thousands of worlds, has devices that can do things you can't comprehend and is literally worshipped by a religion. Yes?"

"It's not that simpl-."

"Yes?"

"… Yes."

"And to you that doesn't say 'god' because your religion says that gods other than yours don't exist. But to my people it says 'god'. There's no practical disagreement, you're just applying a different label." I mock-frown at her. "And being weirdly insistent on it."

She takes a moment to assemble a reply. "I suppose you could look at it like that."

I smile at the crowd. I think that we've left them a little behind, but the court recorder is dutifully writing everything down. "Good! Good. So, in conclusion-."

I get up and walk up to Kasrin's mother before crouching down and smiling at Kasrin. She doesn't really respond.

"So, in conclusion, I'm both a 'god' and a 'snakehead', because those are one and the same thing. Do you understand?"

She shakes her head.

"Well, maybe you will one day." I reach out and gently pat her on the head. "Thank you for coming here today, Kasrin. Kiss your dolly for me, okay?"

"'kay."

I straighten up and smile at Mrs. Duxley.

"Thank you for coming. Please, return to your school. I'll have the letter for you to pass on to your superior later."

Click to shrink...

Either she's pandering to Mammon out of fear, or she's an idiot.

Because there are so many ways someone even half way intelligent could have picked that little speech apart. That there's really not other options.

 

[Osiris]

Sort of a weird, recursive argument showing that the goa'uld memory download effected him quite badly.

"Of course when I spent my entire life telling those mud farmers I was a magician, I meant I was very practiced at slight of hand. It's very narrow minded of you to insist that I don't really know magic, you couldn't build the retracting blade guillotine from scratch the way I did. No, it isn't important that everyone from my culture is a genocidal, maniacal serial rapist because we killed everyone who wasn't."

 

[Peanuckle]

Having done some religious debates in my time, I have to say that Paul's argument is pretty shallow. Semantics is just... semantics, and you're not addressing the real issue, which is whether he is a being worth worship and respect. And equalizing the terms "god" and "snakehead" seems like a remarkably bad idea; people might start using them interchangeably, which will greatly offend the other Goa'uld.

This conversation would be best kept as suppressed as possible, since it really just undermines Goa'Paul's dignity without meaningfully convincing Duxley of anything.