With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Darko · Sunday at 8:16 AM

Mr Zoat said:
." Dru-Zod looks dazed. "It wasn't… Why did I choose Timaron? It-.
There were better… Targets." He looks angrily at Lesley. "Who did this to me?"

Add a space between the sentences.

Mr Zoat said:
*If it makes you FFeel better, the decision to destroy a world was entirely yours.**

He calms down a little. "Thank you. It does

So...still a bit if a psycho.

Guess Amalak may get to kill him even if he was influenced.

Mr Zoat said:
understand exactly how making neural clones, but

"clones work"

Bigking321 · Sunday at 8:18 AM

I'm getting quite invested in this plot.

Pulling at threads leading to the reveal of a far greater forgotten conspiracy.

It's exciting!

BR549 · Sunday at 8:27 AM

Mr Zoat said:
It seems that I wanted them worried enough to follow my advise, but…

'advice'

and while I didn't detect any sigh in the Rao system

'sign'

Darko said:
So...still a bit if a psycho.

Well, to be fair. If you for whatever reason decided a planet needed to go, wouldn't it be nice to know that that was your conclusion instead of somebody pointing you at them and mentally going 'sic 'em'?

Vaermina · Sunday at 8:32 AM

Mr Zoat said:
Right. Think. Someone was on Krypton, messing around with the minds of the people there. But Krypton was going to explode anyway. Jor-El's model wasn't based on mind control. I checked it myself. It accurately predicted the shape of Krypton post-explosion, the timeline, and there weren't any other residues that would suggest a planet busting weapon. So there wasn't any point in making things worse, because everyone was going to die anyway.

It's very very odd that he doesn't start suspecting Brainiac here given him showing up to take Argo is something of a constant.

Z000 · Sunday at 8:47 AM

Vaermina said:
It's very very odd that he doesn't start suspecting Brainiac here given him showing up to take Argo is something of a constant.

probably cause he think that this DC universe use different origin for Brainiac that don't involve Superman and so far i don't think he found anything that say otherwise

Chojin Patriarch · Sunday at 8:58 AM

Mr Zoat said:
12th August 2013
21:15 GMT

Dru-Zod frowns. "It is. I have no reason to lie."

**MMaybe.** Her horns glow. **But SSomone does.**

So, something about his decision was... Influenced? Modified? by an unknown party? For what reason? Who could have done this, and when? A contact from a pre-withdrawal period? This whole affair has just gotten very complicated indeed.

Dru-Zod looks blank for a moment, then blink-splutters. "Hu-?"

**That was GGood. Very clever. If we had no g-lusca, I don't think I would have NNoticed it.**

So an extremely skilled telepath, or someone using a form of influence that functioned in similar fashion, enough that the genomorphs interpret it as telepathic alterations...

Wait, there actually was something?

Nowan-Lu stares at Lesley. "What? What is it?"

Amazing, even OL is surprised he was somehow right about this.

**The memory is real but the AAssociations were fabricated. He made connections TThat he should not have made.**

Nallam glares. "Meaning what?"

I can understand the anger, given that the 'connections' resulted in the death of her world. And the fact that this may be enough to lessen his guilt, if not clear him entirely.

**Mental networks are NNetworks of association. Ideas and memories are linked together in PPatterns. A telepath can add in links and CChange how thoughts interact.** She pauses, waiting to see if they understand. It looks like the answer is 'no', because if you're not used to psychic phenomena the concepts are a little out there. **Like water. Water flows down CChannels. If you dig a new channel between one stream AAnd another, some water will flow that way instead. And one PPool grows while another shrinks.**

In other words, whatever did this made the connections between 'Timaron' and 'easy target' stronger.

"It-." Dru-Zod looks dazed. "It wasn't… Why did I choose Timaron? It-. There were better… Targets." He looks angrily at Lesley. "Who did this to me?"

Lesley shrugs. **I don't know. I CCould recognise mental alterations similar to that one, but they did not sign their name on your brain. It is Ssomething I could have done, but it does not feel like how Martians work. Human telepaths are TToo variable to say if one of them could have done it.**

So she - and thusly the entire genomorph network once she reconnects to it - will be able to recognise their work if they encounter it in future.

"Did I meet someone? There-!" Dru-Zod's initial rage is getting replaced with confusion. "There weren't any aliens on Krypton, that was the whole point-."

Arnus makes a 'stop' gesture to his client. "General Dru-Zod. An impossible situation has just become survivable. That is better news than we could have expected."

It won't necessarily exonerate him, but it may mean he could receive a lesser punishment. though i expect his death will still be on the cards.

"This is not good news. I knew that saving Krypton was a long shot. I missed, and I accepted that. Now I find that I might just have-! Just have been some mindworm's pawn?!"

**If it makes you FFeel better, the decision to destroy a world was entirely yours.**

He calms down a little. "Thank you. It does."

I can see why that makes him a little happier. Knowing he was aimed at Timaron like a weapon, that was bad enough. But to think that someone might have made him do that against his normal nature? That's just...

Ick.

I see Arnus sigh a very shallow sigh. "Nowan-Lu? Do you have further questions?"

"I-." She thinks for a moment. "Why did you decide to destroy a world? Why not carry out a smaller strike?"

Ah, that is another good question. Why go to such extremes, to kill another race's home biosphere...

"I needed to ensure that there was no evidence to contradict my version of events. A limited strike might destroy evidence I claimed existed, but other records and witness testimonies might survive."

**True.**

Ah. He needed to make sure the narrative he was planning could be carried through to the end. A single contrary counterpoint might have made the house of cards collapse.

"I needed the Science Council panicked and the population motivated."

**No.**

Dru-Zod doesn't make a noise this time, but he does flinch. "That's not what I remember deciding."

That's rather the point, Dru. someone dicked about with your motives, your sense of... Common Sense? Nudging you into the plan of action they desired of you...

**I KKnow.**

"It-. It seems that I wanted them worried enough to follow my advice, but… Something made me think that I needed more than that. But that's-."

Arnus looks empathetic. "General?"

...Ah, something he wouldn't have done if he'd been in his right mind?

"I couldn't rely on-." Lesley's horns glow, and he twitches again. "I-. Something made me think I couldn't rely on them."

"And in reality?"

Ah, now. What would he have done without this influence? What plans would he have enacted?

"I don't-. I don't know. Krypton under the Science Council was out of the habit of resisting their directives. If an order had come from them to build a larger fleet then it would have happened. My original plan was to manipulate them, not simply take over directly. I considered it, but then decided that the risk wasn't worth it. They would act to preserve their power as they did against Jor-El, whereas if I was merely an advisor advocating a course of action they… Would consider it based on the evidence available."

But something thought that was too little, and pushed him into the coup he engaged in. It's getting a lot easier to see the shape of the plan, but for what reason? Krypton was doomed one way or the other. Why do this? Spite? ...A cover-up?

Right. Think. Someone was on Krypton, messing around with the minds of the people there. But Krypton was going to explode anyway. Jor-El's model wasn't based on mind control. I checked it myself. It accurately predicted the shape of Krypton post-explosion, the timeline, and there weren't any other residues that would suggest a planet busting weapon. So there wasn't any point in making things worse, because everyone was going to die anyway.

...Unless the something that did this needed something specific about the planet's detonation. Something that would not have occurred without Zod's coup?

"How widespread was knowledge of what Jor-El thought was happening?"

"I don't know exactly. He mostly circulated it amongst people he knew, his intellectual peers. He told me that he hoped that with enough peer review it would either be accepted or someone would point out his errors. I doubt that it was more than one percent of our population, mostly around the capital and the younger scientists."

I guess any attempts to disseminate it further were stalled or stifled entirely by the Council in the name of 'preventing panic' or 'stopping rabble-rousing.'

Nallam fixes me with a level glare. "Orange Lantern, you are here as a courtesy-."

"There are kryptonians in the Phantom Zone, and while I didn't detect any sign in the Rao system that anyone other than Kal-El and Kara Zor-El left during that period, there are ways around those scans. I need to follow up on that right away. Excuse me."

Oh? Hopefully the court doesn't object to OL starting an independent investigation.

I raise my right index finger to my forehead

and

12th August 2013
21:18 GMT

home in on the desires which are exactly the same as Lesley's.

Ah, collecting more mind-reading teams?

"Hello, old FFriend!"

"Lisa, I need to hire another g-lusca, a g-pooka and some g-gremlins."

"G-Gremlins are based on g-gnomes. If you wish to interrogate an A.I. then YYou-."

Ah, going after the Kryptonian engrams? They are a significant point of interest in his suspicions, I bet.

"Four is fine. Please arrange this quickly, I'll pick everyone up when I've gotten hold of the subjects."

**[Smile]** "I am HHappy to help!"

And not even a moment of discussing his payment. I assume they know he's good for it and will cover the cost later.

"Thank you." I.

focus on Jor-El's synthetic desires and

appear in the Fortress of Solitude, and-. "Anyone here?"

At least this one won't take long to bring the probers to, once they're ready.

"No." Jor-El appears nearby. "We are alone. How is the trial going?"

"You said that the original Jor-El didn't update you with anything relating to Lar-On."

"Yes. It was an oversight, but under the circumstances a fairly forgivable one."

Ah, I see... OL's seeing some sort of inconsistency in the data?

"No it's not, because it doesn't make sense. He made you so that he'd have something that could share knowledge of Krypton with Kal-El. A way to vicariously participate in raising his son after he died. But when he apprehended Lar-On he was still doing research. And after that he was still trying to convince the Science Council to take action. He wouldn't have made you until after that. Now, I don't understand exactly how making neural clones works, but you are a clone, right? Not an intelligent system patterned after him?"

As in, based on a complete neurological scan of his brain at that moment? Mimicking the configuration of every synapse, including memories?

Jor-El frowns. "That is.. true. You believe that my programming was altered?"

"We have reason to believe that there was a telepathic alien on Krypton before it exploded. I'd like you to agree to let the genomorphs have a look at your mind to check."

At least he's asking permission. After all, he pushed for the laws covering the personhood of synthetic minds like the Jor-El engram. Of course he's going to do this above board.

"Someone-?" He frowns. "That makes no sense. We were isolationist and xenophobic. Why would an alien come to Krypton?"

"Perhaps they'd been there for a long time and couldn't get away. Please, this is important for the trial. Can-?"

"Yes, of course. We absolutely most find out what happened. I would not see Dru-Zod punished for something he did not do of his own volition."

Bit late on that front, as we know he chose to burn a planet by his own volition. The reasons why are what's in question...

OL's thinking someone fiddled with the engrams' databanks too, doesn't he? Possibly the same being that messed with Zod's mind, depending on the way it was achieved. If it was done by some techno-telepathic means, the genomorph teams will likely be able to recognise any similarities once they compare mental notes. This is getting intense...

Neruz · Sunday at 9:03 AM

This plot do be thickening.

webxro · Sunday at 9:10 AM

An interesting question is if the Jor-El synthetic mind was altered or if his organic mind pre-scan was the one altered and potentially it would be much harder to detect that. also I wonder how potentially possible it will be to access the Kryptonian afterlife. We know the planet had magic and souls.

Darko · Sunday at 9:16 AM

Vaermina said:
It's very very odd that he doesn't start suspecting Brainiac here given him showing up to take Argo is something of a constant.

He may not think it's Brainiac because whoever is doing this is doing something very weird.

I don't see how doing this thing with Zod would help him take Argo or anything like that.

Z000 said:
probably cause he think that this DC universe use different origin for Brainiac that don't involve Superman and so far i don't think he found anything that say otherwise

He knows that Brainiac is a Coluan that turned himself into a robot instead of a Kryptonian AI.

webxro said:
An interesting question is if the Jor-El synthetic mind was altered or if his organic mind pre-scan was the one altered and potentially it would be much harder to detect that. also I wonder how potentially possible it will be to access the Kryptonian afterlife. We know the planet had magic and souls.

The planets destruction may have also destroyed their afterlife.

Mr Zoat · Sunday at 9:38 AM

Ngamer11 said:
That should be in one line.
That should say 'then'.
That space should be removed.

Darko said:
"clones work"

BR549 said:
'advice'
'sign'

Thank you, corrected.

Signaller · Sunday at 10:01 AM

Mr Zoat said:
"Thank you." I.

focus on Jor-El's synthetic desires and

appear in the Fortress of Solitude

Does the fact that the Fortress has acquired enough orange light to have actual desires instead of mere programming indicate that it/he now has the beginnings of a soul, to channel that, either by design or by exposure to Earth's thaumosphere? Otherwise OL wouldn't be able to use that as an anchor to step in, and the only way to get to the fortress would've been to trace ethereal desires-in-place from all the people that have visited, probably the greatest influence being Kal's desire to learn about his heritage.

WereDragon · Sunday at 10:09 AM

Mr Zoat said:
Wait, there actually was something?

Why would this be a hopeful thought? A very simple situation which provides a straightforward solution to a problem just became complicated.
Is Paul really that desperate for things to do that he genuinely hopes for new complications?

Mr Zoat · Sunday at 10:17 AM

Signaller said:
Does the fact that the Fortress has acquired enough orange light to have actual desires instead of mere programming indicate that it/he now has the beginnings of a soul, to channel that, either by design or by exposure to Earth's thaumosphere? Otherwise OL wouldn't be able to use that as an anchor to step in, and the only way to get to the fortress would've been to trace ethereal desires-in-place from all the people that have visited, probably the greatest influence being Kal's desire to learn about his heritage.

Yes, as far as the SI is concerned the neural clone of Jor-El is a person. Jor-El disagrees.

WereDragon said:
Why would this be a hopeful thought? A very simple situation which provides a straightforward solution to a problem just became complicated.
Is Paul really that desperate for things to do that he genuinely hopes for new complications?

He really doesn't want to execute a pregnant woman.

Signaller · Sunday at 10:26 AM

Mr Zoat said:
Yes, as far as the SI is concerned the neural clone of Jor-El is a person. Jor-El disagrees.

Huh, and the capacity OL has to step in there functions as experimental evidence. So was that development intentional on original Jor-El's part, or an unpredicted side effect of Earth's thaumosphere? Also, does that mean the Sivanadroids from way back when OL was running the JL exercise would eventually develop sentience, regardless of limitations put in place by the family? Or maybe they use something like a thaumic shunt or other limiter, similar to how Mortalla had an artificial cap preventing her from becoming a proper New God.

Someguy Somewhere · Sunday at 12:32 PM

If the issue is who dun it, the list has to be small. How many people even knew about Jor-Els neural duplicate at all? He made it for his son. He didn't advertise Kal-El's rocket because making it was effectively a crime.

Unless the alterations were done afterwards. While on earth, inferring the conspiracy followed him.

Alternatively, they directly affected Jor-El himself while he made it.

PepeTheFrog · Sunday at 1:14 PM

Now that we have proof someone or something was messing with Zod I would like to theorise that Mr Mxyzptlk has been part of forming a rogues gallery for Superman to fight.

Darko · Sunday at 1:21 PM

PepeTheFrog said:
Now that we have proof someone or something was messing with Zod I would like to theorise that Mr Mxyzptlk has been part of forming a rogues gallery for Superman to fight.

Or Despair.

She convinced Rao to make Kryptonians in the comics.

Mr Zoat · Sunday at 1:47 PM

Signaller said:
Huh, and the capacity OL has to step in there functions as experimental evidence. So was that development intentional on original Jor-El's part, or an unpredicted side effect of Earth's thaumosphere?

Original Jor-El knew what he was doing, and got what he intended. The only thing he didn't take into account is that Kal-El leaves Jor-El on the whole time rather than just consulting him occasionally.

Also, does that mean the Sivanadroids from way back when OL was running the JL exercise would eventually develop sentience, regardless of limitations put in place by the family? Or maybe they use something like a thaumic shunt or other limiter, similar to how Mortalla had an artificial cap preventing her from becoming a proper New God.

No, Sivanadroids are far too mentally simple for something like that to happen.

Darko said:
Or Despair.

She convinced Rao to make Kryptonians in the comics.

To be clear, that's Rao the sun and not Rao the god.

Ngamer11 · Sunday at 2:05 PM

Mr Zoat said:
To be clear, that's Rao the sun and not Rao the god.

How different are they?

mastermenthe · Sunday at 2:09 PM

PepeTheFrog said:
Now that we have proof someone or something was messing with Zod I would like to theorise that Mr Mxyzptlk has been part of forming a rogues gallery for Superman to fight.

Mr Mxyzptlk would not use telepathic methods, he would use direct narrative alterations. Big splashes, not hidden traces.

Attention Counting · Sunday at 2:26 PM

Ngamer11 said:
How different are they?

Based on established metaphysics, the god is a being seemingly formed from the Kryptonian connection to the Dreaming like most gods are. Stars, on the other hand, were alive since birth and can seemingly allow or influence species and planets in its solar system, like Rao or Sto-Oa.

Edit: Rao the god correlates to Rao the star the same way gods like Ishtar and Aphrodite correlate to the planet Venus. They aren't actually the celestial body in question.

Sordid Snake · Sunday at 2:55 PM

Chojin Patriarch said:
OL's thinking someone fiddled with the engrams' databanks too, doesn't he? Possibly the same being that messed with Zod's mind, depending on the way it was achieved. If it was done by some techno-telepathic means, the genomorph teams will likely be able to recognise any similarities once they compare mental notes. This is getting intense...

What if the ultimate culprit is Jor-El? Wouldn't that be a kick in the (underwear on the outside) pants for Kal-El?

My thinking goes like this: Jor-El is frantically trying to confirm or disprove his theory that Krypton will explode. He is so frantic that he makes an AI without the usual safeguards to have it double-check his data and reasoning. The AI (Lets pretent he named it Brainiac

) quickly becomes self-directed and also wants to survive, so it tries different schemes. Like manipulating Zod to manipulate the Science Council to save Krypton. However all those schemes fail.
(Finally when Jor-El is building the rocket it would be easy for the AI to use hacked construction bots to make its own copy of it... Or it could have replaced Jor-Els mind upload with its own...)

And the result of this whole shit-show would not be a placated Amalak, it would be an Amalak focused on taking revenge on Kal-El...

BartlettMagic · Sunday at 3:25 PM

loving the swerve here.

Neruz said:
This plot do be thickening

that do be spoken like a true Illianer, or i do be a silverpike

Mr Zoat · Sunday at 3:27 PM

To be clear, in this story Brainiac is a coluan upload whose origin owes nothing to Krypton.

Someguy Somewhere · Sunday at 6:22 PM

BartlettMagic said:
loving the swerve here.

that do be spoken like a true Illianer, or i do be a silverpike

Wheel of Time Reference?

PDV · Sunday at 7:04 PM

BR549 said:
One set of fan sketch-comics/short fics I followed some time ago had the headcanon that Kryptonians actually got easily drunk...on milk.
As did Time Lords.

(Only Kryptonians had super-sobering-up powers, though.)

Time Lords have the ultimate in sobering-up powers: go back three days and only come back when you're sober.

Signaller · Sunday at 8:34 PM

Mr Zoat said:
Original Jor-El knew what he was doing, and got what he intended. The only thing he didn't take into account is that Kal-El leaves Jor-El on the whole time rather than just consulting him occasionally.

And that wasn't in the manual for the fortress when Kal-El set it up the first time? Or did he just not bother checking? (Did Young Justice establish how the fortress was created? I only know the Smallville and Superman 1978 versions.)

Vaermina · Sunday at 8:52 PM

Z000 said:
probably cause he think that this DC universe use different origin for Brainiac that don't involve Superman and so far i don't think he found anything that say otherwise

Sorry, meant Kandor not Argo.

Darko said:
He may not think it's Brainiac because whoever is doing this is doing something very weird.

I don't see how doing this thing with Zod would help him take Argo or anything like that.

The end result was Krypton dismantling the entirety of their defense fleet.

Mr Zoat said:
To be clear, in this story Brainiac is a coluan upload whose origin owes nothing to Krypton.

Well, it's nice to get Nerf confirmation at least since "copy" Brainiac lacks a lot of the original's capabilities.

Mr Zoat · Sunday at 9:26 PM

Signaller said:
And that wasn't in the manual for the fortress when Kal-El set it up the first time? Or did he just not bother checking? (Did Young Justice establish how the fortress was created? I only know the Smallville and Superman 1978 versions.)

Oh sure, Kal-El knows that kryptonians didn't regard neural clones as people. But Jor-El didn't leave a specific 'don't leave my neural clone active for more than half an hour at a time' instruction because it wouldn't occur to him that he'd need to.

Sordid Snake · Sunday at 10:30 PM

Mr Zoat said:
Original Jor-El knew what he was doing, and got what he intended. The only thing he didn't take into account is that Kal-El leaves Jor-El on the whole time rather than just consulting him occasionally.

Looks like Jor-El didn't watch Star Trek Voyager

With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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