With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Darko]

The fact that he still does stupid shit when it has proven to bite him in the ass, or sodomize him in the case of the anti life,all without thinking that maybe being less of an asshat could be helpful and putting effort into trying to become less of an asshat can turn some people away.

Chaoswind I am pretty sure that Paul just showed Michael a way he thought would work given his own experience with such an event.
In other words he was winging it.

 

[theaceoffire]

Generosity next

Click to shrink...

I have an open can of whoop-ass, and you can have as much as you want!

 

[Mr Zoat]

Correction:
She takes a moment, then awkwardly rises to her hooves.
I step out of the way...
Then I close my eyes, turn and open them…

Click to shrink...

Thank you, corrected.

 

[Siiracai The Supernal]

Theoretically, one could probably get a Fear, and a Hope enlightenment at the same time. They would have to see what they are afraid of, but hope to overcome. And what they hope for, but fear failing at. If they did manage to get both, they could likely snag a Will enlightenment as well.

 

[Ideomancer]

It's always interesting watching people ignore either branch of the fic dealing with the consequences of their actions, as if Zoat didn't just literally recount Grayven losing access to a stockpile of New God technology and materiel as a direct consequence of being an asshole, or straining his relationship with Robin and the team over his antics in direct reaction and proportion to his assholery and questionable decision making.

I come back to the thought I had back on SV that what people want is not for Grayven to have consequences, because he can deal with consequences and generally does one way or the other. What they want is for Grayven to be punished for his behavior in a way that he can't work his way out of. They want him to be written into a corner to think about what he's done rather than dealing with the consequences he faces for his attitudes and actions.

I'm not sure there are any consequences that will ever be sufficient for that level of spite so long as Grayven remains capable of addressing them or actually correcting his behavior over them, which is all he's ever done (or at least tried to do) in the face of them. Even being hit with the anti-life and having been forced to face his fear of losing everyone he cares about and everything he's worked for doesn't seem to count, because he overcame that, even though he's still fighting it now. This is how characters learn and grow, but some people don't seem to want to see Grayven learn, grow or overcome his challenges, mistakes or the consequences of them. They seem to want to see him beaten into the dust until there's nothing less. They want to see him humbled so badly they miss it every time it happens, or forget it because he does something too prideful later on after he's recovered and dealt with things. They seem to want the anti-life to beat him, either literally or figuratively.

Some people can't seem to stand seeing others facing their pains with a smile.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Click to shrink...

Really more like:

 

[WereDragon]

I feel my own amusement as my former self cracks up, and a blue crystal attaches itself to my armour.

Click to shrink...

Grayven own the tree so many presents for cutting him that much slack.


I can only speak for myself but for me the issue isn't about consequences or anything like that. The problem is that Grayven is legitimately an arsehole and much of his screen time has been spent deriding characters I like better than him.

Watching him give 'the reason you such' speeches is not endearing. Watching him come to equestria for help, repeatedly make an ass of himself for no reason, then solve the problem with no help from anyone (indeed with having to help Luna merely survive while he is at it) is not endearing.
That said we are only on part 14, I trust that Mr Zoat has something more nuanced in the works that Grayven shouting "See how right I was?!" as the conclusion.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Grayven own the tree so many presents for cutting him that much slack.


I can only speak for myself but for me the issue isn't about consequences or anything like that. The problem is that Grayven is legitimately an arsehole and much of his screen time has been spent deriding characters I like better than him.

Watching him give 'the reason you such' speeches is not endearing. Watching him come to equestria for help, repeatedly make an ass of himself for no reason, then solve the problem with no help from anyone (indeed with having to help Luna merely survive while he is at it) is not endearing.
That said we are only on part 14, I trust that Mr Zoat has something more nuanced in the works that Grayven shouting "See how right I was?!" as the conclusion.

Click to shrink...

Yes. He's singing a song.

 

[Awkward]

Yes. He's singing a song.

Click to shrink...

Oh god, that's hilarious. Also, you got gypsy bard stuck in my head again. Still, it's nice to wander down the memory lane.

 

[david]

When he met Darkseid and got hit with anti life after basically destroying the Light was probably one of the first times he faced consequences, at least from what i remember.

Click to shrink...

Well there was that last time he went through a dimensional portal and played a hammy super-villain while going up against the anti-life. That time he got multiple big holes blasted through his body, suffered repeated stabbings, blindness, and at the end he was nuked and got clawed to hell while still in the explosion.

Sure he healed up, but Grayven basically spent an entire episode getting his shit kicked in while Sinestro mocked him.

 

[Adad64]

He's not really a hero. An anti-hero at best, more accurately he's pretty deep into those shades of gray (hah!). And he has suffered consequences, this arc being entirely about doing something to recover from them. And even if he succeeds, he's living in constant fear of Darkseid for the rest of his life.

Click to shrink...

I mean, living in constant fear for the rest of eternity is one option. I somehow think he's not quite enough of a lump to just shrug and ignore Darkseid until he eats the universe. One way or another, that conflict is going to resolve.

 

[Antares1883]

This might seem out of the blue but how strong does the danner formula make an average healthy adult?

 

[Darko]

When Hugo, who was pretending to be Arnold, pitched the idea to Luthor he said the recepients could rival Diana in terms of strength, so high level superstrength.

I am getting the feeling renegade is going to beat the equation by singing like Supes did.

 

[Mr Zoat]

This might seem out of the blue but how strong does the danner formula make an average healthy adult?

Click to shrink...

Exactly as strong as they were before, because it doesn't work on adults.

If the SI engages in jiggery pokery, about as strong as Diana.

 

[Ace Dreamer]

This might seem out of the blue but how strong does the danner formula make an average healthy adult?

Click to shrink...

A good start might be looking at the publication history... DC Comics is pretty fuzzy on strength, and the answer tends to be 'as strong as the plot requires', though they do tend to have consistent others who are weaker than or stronger than them. Comparable in strength to (early-ish) Golden Age Superman might be a reasonable guess.

 

[The Froggy Ninja]

Probably not. Not because it's theoretically impossible, but because the way an individual ends up thinking strongly discourages it.

Click to shrink...

Didn't you say that the original plan was for Paul to attain fear enlightenment from the Terror Thing but you didn't want to deal with the quotation marks?

 

[Antares1883]

Exactly as strong as they were before, because it doesn't work on adults.

If the SI engages in jiggery pokery, about as strong as Diana.

Click to shrink...

And how strong is Diana exactly in this fic?

 

[Mr Zoat]

Didn't you say that the original plan was for Paul to attain fear enlightenment from the Terror Thing but you didn't want to deal with the quotation marks?

Click to shrink...

I don't remember saying that.

And how strong is Diana exactly in this fic?

Click to shrink...

As strong as it is narratively useful for her to be, limited by previous established feats.

 

[Ideomancer]

Grayven own the tree so many presents for cutting him that much slack.

I can only speak for myself but for me the issue isn't about consequences or anything like that. The problem is that Grayven is legitimately an arsehole and much of his screen time has been spent deriding characters I like better than him.

Watching him give 'the reason you such' speeches is not endearing. Watching him come to equestria for help, repeatedly make an ass of himself for no reason, then solve the problem with no help from anyone (indeed with having to help Luna merely survive while he is at it) is not endearing.
That said we are only on part 14, I trust that Mr Zoat has something more nuanced in the works that Grayven shouting "See how right I was?!" as the conclusion.

Click to shrink...

I kinda feel like you missed the part where it's already more nuanced than that. Remember how he's already been called out for being wrong on the details of the Pinkie Clone Murder Spree? Or how his antics have directly led to Luna invading his dreams, leading to Luna's self-inflicted psychic scars feeding the anti-life and helping set it free? Or how all of this is very likely driven by the AL influencing his approach to dealing with them in the first place, inspiring him to desperation and cruelty instead of diplomacy? And that he's an easy target for that because he's such a hammy jerk to begin with? Which is a huge part of why he has an AL fragment in the first place?

No, his behavior isn't endearing for all that it is sometimes hilarious. This isn't the first time Grayven's propensity for hamatics has bitten him in the ass and it probably won't be the last, but his arcs have basically always been more nuanced than people who can't read past his bluster credit. Yes, he often comes out the other side right and righteous, but only because he manages to correct his course, one way or another, before it kills him. In the end he is generally at least less wrong than when he started, but there are a few particular kinds of mistakes he just can't help repeating because they've become baked into his nature because he started on this path by pretending to be a large ham villain. He made that face so often it stuck.

People don't enjoy Grayven because he's an arrogant jerk, people enjoy Grayven for his sheer dynamism and the fact that he is on every level so much more outwardly energetic than the Paragon. Yes, a certain percentage of that time is inevitably spent watching him sail himself directly into the next catastrophe as hard as possible. Some people even enjoy him for the way he manages to constantly, as he already has in this sequence, to troll both everyone around him and himself.

The man is a walking petard factory that still manages to get shit done. It's almost like Zoat is channeling the American stereotype version of himself and the contrast with Original Edition is delicious.

 

[SebazuD]

I kinda feel like you missed the part where it's already more nuanced than that. Remember how he's already been called out for being wrong on the details of the Pinkie Clone Murder Spree? Or how his antics have directly led to Luna invading his dreams, leading to Luna's self-inflicted psychic scars feeding the anti-life and helping set it free? Or how all of this is very likely driven by the AL influencing his approach to dealing with them in the first place, inspiring him to desperation and cruelty instead of diplomacy? And that he's an easy target for that because he's such a hammy jerk to begin with? Which is a huge part of why he has an AL fragment in the first place?

No, his behavior isn't endearing for all that it is sometimes hilarious. This isn't the first time Grayven's propensity for hamatics has bitten him in the ass and it probably won't be the last, but his arcs have basically always been more nuanced than people who can't read past his bluster credit. Yes, he often comes out the other side right and righteous, but only because he manages to correct his course, one way or another, before it kills him. In the end he is generally at least less wrong than when he started, but there are a few particular kinds of mistakes he just can't help repeating because they've become baked into his nature because he started on this path by pretending to be a large ham villain. He made that face so often it stuck.

People don't enjoy Grayven because he's an arrogant jerk, people enjoy Grayven for his sheer dynamism and the fact that he is on every level so much more outwardly energetic than the Paragon. Yes, a certain percentage of that time is inevitably spent watching him sail himself directly into the next catastrophe as hard as possible. Some people even enjoy him for the way he manages to constantly, as he already has in this sequence, to troll both everyone around him and himself.

The man is a walking petard factory that still manages to get shit done. It's almost like Zoat is channeling the American stereotype version of himself and the contrast with Original Edition is delicious.

Click to shrink...

I have to disagree.
Because even if Grayven does end up in trouble, it doesnt reverse all the shitty way he treats other.

Like, all those rumours he started, do you think they are gonna magically dissapear?

That's what makes him unpeasant to watch.

 

[Ideomancer]

I have to disagree.
Because even if Grayven does end up in trouble, it doesnt reverse all the shitty way he treats other.

Like, all those rumours he started, do you think they are gonna magically dissapear?

That's what makes him unpeasant to watch.

Click to shrink...

It certainly can be cringe inducing at times, but pretending there are no consequences for him, or that he never acts to follow up on the consequences of his actions, especially where they affect people he in any way cares about is an absurd product of willful disregard for every line of the story that isn't comprised of Grayven making an arse of himself. Which is, in fact, most of them.

No, the rumours don't just magically disappear. That's part of the point. His actions have consequences. Very rarely do such things occur in a vacuum. The consequences of someone's actions and attitudes rarely only ever affect just that one person. Work will need to be done to set things even close to right, and the harm will always have been done, and people who could have been his friends and allies are already straining under his presence. This will have consequences for him dealing with Equestria going forward, and may even result in him becoming cut off entirely whether he likes it or not, among other issues. People make mistakes. Paragon makes mistakes too. Sometimes their mistakes affect people far, far out of scope of their intentions.

What do you actually want? For him to change into a completely different character who never makes the kinds of mistakes we know he's prone to making? Who makes different mistakes that never involve making personal attacks on others? Who just plain doesn't affect the world around him for fear of hurting people?

Yes. It can be unpleasant to watch. Sometimes people are unpleasant. If he weren't, he would be a shallower character than he is now, and less interesting to read about. This is the land of fan fiction... what would you replace his unpleasantness with?

 

[Maxx Crowley]

I'm saying he gets no real consecuences of being an asshole.

Click to shrink...

Most assholes never do. That's why they are assholes.

Because even if Grayven does end up in trouble, it doesnt reverse all the shitty way he treats other.

Click to shrink...

As someone who doesn't like Grayven, and indeed hasn't even been reading this arc, why would you expect it to?

 

[Antares1883]

Wondering if Alan's blue power ring can create constructs or is it limited like other blue rings you'd see in post crisis etc

 

[Coda]

Wondering if Alan's blue power ring can create constructs or is it limited like other blue rings you'd see in post crisis etc

Click to shrink...

No, Alan's ring is not artificially nerfed. It's damaged, but it hasn't lost any functions as a result of the green-to-blue conversion.

 

[SebazuD]

As someone who doesn't like Grayven, and indeed hasn't even been reading this arc, why would you expect it to?

Click to shrink...

Remember when Sunset got hit, in EG, by the the elements(kinda)?
And it gave her perspective of what a bitch she had been?

That's what I was hoping for.

 

[topin89]

Just do what I do: get a free account on imgBB.com, take a screenshot of the image, copy it into Paint, crop it, save it to your computer and then save it to imgBB and then use the imgBB link. Simple.

Click to shrink...

If you're on Win 10, there's a faster way.
1. Win+Shift+S to select part of a screen. Options for arbitrary, window and fullscreen selections also there. If no cropping needed, skip to the last.
2. "Snip saved to clipboard" Notification should appear in about 2 seconds. If no edit is needed, just skip to the last.
3. Click on notification, "Screen sketch" window should appear. Do some changes and copy again.
4. Open imgbb.com and just Ctrl+V then download.

It's surprising how many sites today accept images from the clipboard. Or messengers, for that matter.

 

[Belenus]

Wondering if Alan's blue power ring can create constructs or is it limited like other blue rings you'd see in post crisis etc

Click to shrink...

No, Alan's ring is not artificially nerfed. It's damaged, but it hasn't lost any functions as a result of the green-to-blue conversion.

Click to shrink...

OL went and got a Blue Ring made for Alan by one of the Weaponers of Qward with a full database and AI assist and neither Paul not the Weaponer would have been willing to nerf the construct creation. It's brand new, and thanks to Alan's state as a partial Will elemental, a bit OP compared to the normal Greenies.

 

[Coda]

OL went and got a Blue Ring made for Alan by one of the Weaponers of Qward with a full database and AI assist and neither Paul not the Weaponer would have been willing to nerf the construct creation. It's brand new, and thanks to Alan's state as a partial Will elemental, a bit OP compared to the normal Greenies.

Click to shrink...

I thought he got a blue lantern made and recharging his ring off of it changed its alignment. Am I remembering wrong?

 

[Shotiegun11]

OL went and got a Blue Ring made for Alan by one of the Weaponers of Qward with a full database and AI assist and neither Paul not the Weaponer would have been willing to nerf the construct creation. It's brand new, and thanks to Alan's state as a partial Will elemental, a bit OP compared to the normal Greenies.

Click to shrink...

The SI had Orange Lantern Weaponeer Kalmin build a Blue Lantern for Alan.

The Lantern fixed, upgraded, and then turned Alan's drained Green Power Ring to a Blue Power Ring.

Ninja'd by Coda:

I thought he got a blue lantern made and recharging his ring off of it changed its alignment. Am I remembering wrong?

Click to shrink...

No, you are correct.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

Remember when Sunset got hit, in EG, by the the elements(kinda)?

Click to shrink...

I don't even know what a Sunset (minus the real thing clearly) an EG, or the "elements" are. So how in the world could I remember it?

But we've been over this about a million times on three forums with both Para-Paul and Rene-Paul. Zoat is not operating on Saturday morning cartoon "what I learned today" morals.

Grayven is an "asshole" to certain characters because he legitimately enjoys doing so. Both he and OL tend to believe they are right, because they are surrounded by comic book characters trapped in status quo stasis. Considering both of them have moved the human race farther in their time on their respective Earth 16's than either the heroes or the villains have....why would they change? Their methods CONSTANTLY get them the results they want.

This is to say nothing of the fundamental basis of who they are.

OL is basically the Ophidians avatar. With a soul comprised of her heart, and a very specific mindset he drilled into himself even before he became a humanoid part of the Orange itself.

Grayven has been soaking up orange and yellow light, used a Father box to Darkseid himself up a soul, and "awoke" to a certain type of godhood.

Whatever you're hoping for, I don't know why you've been hoping it.

Batman's a paranoid, rude, rich boy asshole control freak who drives away all his allies and loved ones, even as he formulates plans to crush them all, who never changes his ways even as it costs him everything and leaves him broken and bitter. Yet all I hear is how awesome he is.