Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

[Shaper47]

Iirc, it was actually a concern that Twilight might off herself if she thought that Celestia casted her aside.

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That would have just been more reason to replace Celestia as mentor then.

Because the Celestia she could have foolishly gone back for would probably have been a Changeling.

 

[DelightedOne]

Despite us already knowing by then that to place trust in Harmony was to suffer and lament.

That the thread choose to continue to have more suffering by following Harmony after Twilight makes me sad. To have Fallen so far by following Harmony and still learned nothing.

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Wow, dark and... darker I guess.

We barely followed Harmony. There were literally like a handful of Harmony choices we had(Selene's awakening and A Memory of Light are the only ones I can clearly remember).

If you meant Harmonic ideals, yes it did cause some issues before(not taking the Names to the Wedding was the most recent one I think) but we currently have a pretty comfortable foundation because of it.

 

[Shaper47]

We barely followed Harmony. There were literally like a handful of Harmony choices we had(Selene's awakening and A Memory of Light are the only ones I can clearly remember).

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I wouldn't call teaching Selene the lores and then performing an eldritch ritual created by a Lore adept following Harmony.

Aside from the Twilight failure there was Soft Sweeps.

We were lucky that the Wolf intervened when Harmony failed there. Otherwise it would have been game over for Velvet.

 

[DelightedOne]

Okay, here we go again.

I wouldn't call teaching Selene the lores and then performing an eldritch ritual created by a Lore adept following Harmony.

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The ritual was sponsored by Harmony. Next.

Aside from the Twilight failure there was Soft Sweeps.

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That was Bird. Next.

We were lucky that the Wolf intervened when Harmony failed there. Otherwise it would have been game over for Velvet.

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The Wolf was actually unwilling to help, Velvet forced him to keep Soft Sweeps alive.

I also would like to remind you that Velvet Covers is a cultist, not an Element, not an Alicorn she is A CULTIST.

She has no knowledge of Harmony besides some things it has done and that it exists, no access to the limited form of the Magic of Friendship that would be present in this time in Canon Equestria and no connection with it at all. The only Harmony aligned power she had was when she performed the Rite of the Mother and the Father with Stormchaser.

 

[Shaper47]

Oh Harmony, your pawn Princess Luna who has loyally followed your will has fallen. Tortured for a thousand years, a sacrifice in your schemes. What will you do now she is back having suffered greatly so you could claim a Victory?

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[Earth-Destroyer]

Iirc, it was actually a concern that Twilight might off herself if she thought that Celestia casted her aside.

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That was never an issue, it was solely people not reading the obvious hints about what would happen. I outright stated Twilight would run back and get captured if we did not take the option to take the place of Celestia. And I was right, frankly the fact Twlight is alive at all is the unbelievable part.

 

[Shaper47]

The ritual was sponsored by Harmony.

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The only Harmony aligned power she had was when she performed the Rite of the Mother and the Father with Stormchaser.

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Do you have any proof to back this wild claim?

Because I highly doubt Jade getting lore based crit and working on a ritual using her lore knowledge. Suddenly means Harmony is responsible.

That was Bird. Next

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Narratively it was morals/Harmony's failure.

 

[DelightedOne]

Do you have any proof to back this wild claim?

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Here is some evidence that the lores were not involved in the rituals that could have been used to wake Selene:

"Rite of Childhood's End"
-CD: None, instant success.
-Cost: A bundle of crocheted blankets, knitted with love. To be mercilessly torn and burnt by the lead ritualist.
-Duration: Instantaneous. Transformation ritual.
-Effect: There is nothing good about this ritual. It is a thing to be done in desperate times only, and its effect is akin to waking up on a cold morning, from a dream of happiness long lost. This will instantly wake Princess Luna, no matter how unprepared she is. And this will be the end of the dream called Selene. (Not a ranged Ritual. Selene must be present.)

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"Rite of the Mother and the Father"
-CD: None, instant success.
-Cost: A mother, a father, a daughter who is asleep. (Does not require a ritual circle. Does not cost an action. Velvet Covers will refuse to perform it with a pony who is not Stormchaser.)
-Duration: Instantaneous.
-Effects: "It is time to wake up."

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As you can see there is no mention of any principle being used or needed or even called upon in either ritual.

If there is no lore involved some other power must have fueled the ritual, considering the circunstances Harmony is the most likely candidate.

A Lantern Realization being used to discover/develop the rituals does not imply a connection with the lores as the nature of Lantern is to reveal and give knowledge so whatever is studied/learned with Lantern is irrelevant.

With the confirmation of Harmony using a different power system than the Principles(something we had confirmed since the start of the quest) it is not a "wild claim" to believe the nature of Selene's rituals is tied to that system instead of the lores.

Narratively it was morals/Harmony's failure.

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I'm not completely sure about this, but I remember Bird saying that was something he wanted to do to define what the seventh RA would be. If someone could confirm or disprove this claim it would be very helpful.

 

[Shaper47]

As you can see there is no mention of any principle being used or needed or even called upon in either ritual.

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The issue with this logic is that the rituals counted as a Single Aspect Ritual Circle.

Which by definition draws upon the laws of the Mansus.

Single Aspect Ritual Circle

"This is the simplest configuration in which we may draw the attention of the laws of the Mansus, although its uses are extremely limited. It is not so much of a ritual circle as it is a magnifying lens, through which we may look more easily into the Mansus, or perhaps through which it may see us more easily."

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It's in the description that those rituals draw on the lores.

If the ritual of "Mother and Father" did not draw on the lores then it would have been placed in a separate category.

 

[DelightedOne]

If the ritual of "Mother and Father" did not draw on the lores then it would have been placed in a separate category.

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The Rite of the Mother and the Father also does not use a ritual circle but it is somehow in the single-circle section so I assume that means Bird put them there for convenience.

It wouldn't make sense for Velvet to have a whole section for Harmony rituals when she barely knows what Harmony is.

 

[Rafuki22]

*Snip*

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Shaper, please, just stop, it is obvious that none are changing their minds.

 

[Pittauro]

The Rite of the Mother and the Father also does not use a ritual circle but it is somehow in the single-circle section so I assume that means Bird put them there for convenience.

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I remember him saying as much

 

[Shaper47]

Shaper, please, just stop, it is obvious that none are changing their minds.

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I'm not the one who brought up this Harmony is actually good/Twilight marlaky.

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

I wouldn't call teaching Selene the lores and then performing an eldritch ritual created by a Lore adept following Harmony.

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The Lore Adept did not create the ritual, the Lore Adept discovered the ritual. Two very different things.

Shaper, please, just stop, it is obvious that none are changing their minds.

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Shaper, like the Hour he most adores, never stops. It makes him a powerful ally when interests align, and a most irksome foe when they do not.

 

[Shaper47]

We should probably change the topic and stop beating a dead horse.

For instance:

What rituals do we want Baldomare to create once we've befriended her?

 

[spiderhellian]

We should probably change the topic and stop beating a dead horse.

For instance:

What rituals do we want Baldomare to create once we've befriended her?

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We've got like 5 Baldomare actions left or so.

Of those, one will be a SH influence (or her sacrament), one will be a Lantern influence, one will be her Lantern sacrament.

Doesn't leave much!

But I'd love some temporary HP for All In.

 

[Bakkasama]

What rituals do we want Baldomare to create once we've befriended her?

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I have a better question, what makes you think that her making rituals for us would happen if we befriend her?

 

[Shaper47]

I have a better question, what makes you think that her making rituals for us would happen if we befriend her?

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She's got the ritualist trait and I'm pretty sure when asked the QM said she'd only make rituals if she was befriended first.

 

[Maer]

Spoiler: The topic moved on. Sorry for dragging it back.

Glory is Ancient, older than the world, and The Mansus is its House- the Principles and Lores are the hands with which it bids mortals and immortals alike to do its will, and the Filters through which its light is shared with the World.

Harmony is going, inexperienced, and blind to the nature of the world. It knows not its enemies, only its purpose, to fill the role that Glory no longer can. To provide guidance and power where Glory cannot. To be what Glory was blocked from being.

Harmony is a blind and deaf child with few if any hands, in a world that is scary, dangerous, and cruel. It does its best and tries its hardest, but fails and draws disaster because it Does Not Know Any Better.

That is why our task for Harmony, was to teach it. To guide and shape it so it would know and understand.

Harmony is not inherently harmful, evil, or bad. However the world it lives in, and the world it THINKS it lives in, are VERY different, and that leads to the tragedies and terrible consequences that we have seen caused by its efforts.

Because a baby does not know that its screams draw in the wolves and will kill its mother. It only knows that something is wrong, and it needs help to fix it.

A toddler does not realize that the knife is sharp and will cut it.

A child does not realize the Light will draw Worms, and the Heat of the Flames will set the dry grass ablaze; only that its friends and the younger children around it are cold and blind, and it wants to help them.

Harmony is not the problem. Harmony's ignorance is the problem. Just like our own ignorance of Sacraments was the problem with the Master. Just like our own ignorance of his whereabouts was the problem. Just like our ignorance of her motives, or its intentions was the problem. Just like ignorance has ALWAYS been the problem.

Lantern to illuminate, Moth to Hide, Grail to invite, Forge to provide, Edge to protect, Heart to Survive, Winter to soothe, SH to thrive, and Knock as the central and external guide.

Harmony has… Love. Laughter. Kindness. Honesty. Generosity. Loyalty. And Magic. Possibly others, but… none of those help it know of the dangers, protect against them, or hide from their sight. Except maybe Magic… which is broken.

Harmony is the source of so many problems, but it is not malicious. By my best guess? It is akin to Glory- a source of power, and a means to shape the world. It may have a purpose that is more active than Glory, but at BEST we're dealing with an ignorant Hour-level being, at Worst an ignorant Glory-equivalent. In either case… even the Hours has to discover the Worms before they could do anything about them.

Harmony has not had that chance.

Where Harmony is ENTIRELY focused on friendship and cooperation and Light, Glory was more balanced and had the Edge to fight them, the Lantern to learn of them, and the Moth to hide from them.

Harmony lacks all three.

Do not blame Harmony for its lack, any more than you blame Glory for creating The Wolf. Be angry, be furious, demand it do better- sure. But do not assume maliciousness, where ignorance and inability are more likely.

 

[Shaper47]

Clap clap, beautifully written Maer, beautifully written.

Sigh, I too wish it were just pure ignorance. But the deal the one-who-was-divided-into-two has very clear references to knowledge of the threats of the Outside.

That and if you don't know of the dangers why are you hiding and have broken the key so you can't be found?

Why the memory blocks leaving Luna vulnerable?

And I suspect Harmony knew the risks it was taking.

Harmony might have made a kinder world, a brighter world.

But if the days couldn't be fun nor free. If the future isn't filled with magic, of dreams and wishes brought to life. If the lives of all are not touched by kindness and love. If the world does not belong to Harmony... then why should there be a world at all.

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

Why the memory blocks leaving Luna vulnerable?

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I can answer this one: because of turbo-trauma that can make Luna insane, suicidal, or taken over by Worms again. Shit came down to a d100 roll when the Cult did what it did and the memories came roaring back, if you recall.

 

[Maer]

1. Could you link those? I don't remember that deal fully, though I doubt it was made with a Wolfish aspect. Dividing is typical of the Wolf, but not exclusive to it, I think. Regardless, if it knew of a danger, I should like to know what specifically the deal mentioned- the Worms by name? Or an unknown, unnamed threat that Harmony did not understand and needed Outside assistance in dealing with?

2. Why would Glory allow itself to be locked away and The Mansus forgotten? Some things are beyond the ability of anyone to prevent. The Forge made her choice, and Glory was forced to abide by it. None could prevent or undo it, until this modern day and age- the moment danger became immanent, Glory's hands began to take more active a role in the defense of the world- and started pushing more actively for someone to find a way past its confinement. And yet still, it could only do as it has always done- and it never was capable of directly moving TO someone, it could only lay out the path and provide the tools for the climb. Harmony, as far as we can tell, seems to follow many of the same beats. Almost as if it took after Glory and followed that same pattern when it was crafted/formed/created/birthed/forged.

3. I have a sneaking suspicion that it was burning away the Worm entirely incidentally, and was instead locking away anything that related to whatever caused her to act so un-harmoniously. It doesn't need to understand WHY those memories caused it, just that they DID. And Dino added another good reason.

4. I seriously doubt it. Else the Harmony ending of teaching it to hide would not be possible. If it was aware of the danger, it would not actively worsen its problem. Unless it planned to become a light so bright and potent that it could kill any Worm that came near No Matter How Powerful, I do not believe that it knew of them. And if that was its aim… It clearly did not truly understand the risk, nor the danger. Again, not malicious- ignorant.

Harmony is the essence of cooperation and unity. It will work towards that purpose, else it could not be Harmony.

Glory is truth, perfection, enlightenment, and Power. It could not be otherwise. Much the same, if Harmony is like Glory, it cannot be other than it is. If it is akin to an Hour, it could not be other than it is. Harmony would stretch out its hand for unity and cooperation until the bitter end, as is its nature and purpose and design.

I do not expect the Colonel to seek peace, nor the Baldomarian to lie. To go against the essence of one's nature is not possible for beings once they've reached certain tiers of power and responsibility and understanding, as we've seen with Every Single Name. Harmony has no reason to be different.

Once again: do not ascribe maliciousness to that which is more easily and reasonably explained away with ignorance or misunderstanding.

Edit: This is how I view things, at least. I'm enjoying the discussion, and I do find your own views insightful, if entirely at odds with my own. :3

 

[Shaper47]

1. Could you link those?

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No problem

A "Repetition of that most abominable of fates" just screams of copying the Intercalate though.

Worms aren't mentioned by name but the Master didn't mention them by name either when she first warned about them.

That thing is-
THE CERTAINTY THAT ONE BECAME TWO.
That thing-
A REPETITION OF THAT MOST ABOMINABLE OF FATES.
That-
IT CAME FROM THE OUTSIDE. PERFECT. COMPLETE. ALONE.
IT WAS ALLOWED ENTRANCE, SHELTER FROM THE DARKNESS. ON ONE CONDITION.
HALF A DOOR CANNOT BE OPENED. HALF A PATH CANNOT BE TREAD. HALF A BRIDGE LEADS NOWHERE.
BUT THE DOOR, AND THE PATH, AND THE BRIDGE, IF MADE WHOLE ONCE AGAIN, MAY STILL LEAD BACK TO THE THING THAT DIVIDED IT.

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2. Why would Glory allow itself to be locked away and The Mansus forgotten?

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Oh I'm not talking Glory but about Harmony.

The key to Harmony was divided in two, allowing Harmony to hide away.

Which I find kinda sus.

I'd respect Harmony a lot if it was actually willing to fight and put itself at risk for taking over the world.

3. I have a sneaking suspicion

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Maybe, but what's stopping it from just happening again then?

That situation leads to Luna set up as the golden calf upon the altar of the worms.

Sticking your head in the sand would only lead to history repeating.

Though I suppose it's possible Harmony didn't have a way to deal with mental damage unlike anybody with the lores.

4. I seriously doubt it. Else the Harmony ending of teaching it to hide would not be possible.

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The way I see it the Harmony ending isn't really what Harmony wants. It's a bargain forced upon it. It's having Harmony stop subverting the lores/Mansus under the threat of a blade at its heart.

It's a minor victory for Harmony in that it retains it's rule and influence over the Wake.

In comparison to the major victory Harmony seeks in which the lores and Mansus is subverted. Unmade and devoured to by replaced with Harmony alone.

Once again: do not ascribe maliciousness to that which is more easily and reasonably explained away with ignorance or misunderstanding.

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Maybe.

I ascribe not so much malice but reckless kindness.

Harmony wants it's perfect victory, it's perfect world. Not matter what it risks and sacrifices for it's designs.

The Greater Good one could say.

This is how I view things, at least. I'm enjoying the discussion, and I do find your own views insightful, if entirely at odds with my own. :3

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Same

I might disagree with your reasoning at times but I do enjoy having such a civil discussion about this type if thing.

In truth I prefer the certainly of other powers.

The knowledge that there goal is to protect the world from the worms is comforting compared to the uncertainty regarding Harmony's intentions.

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

I don't think Harmony is capable of reaching out and directly fighting people any more than Glory is, at least in its current state. They both work through entities, artifacts, and infrastructure for basically everything as they sit around existing.

 

[Solace2117]

Oh I'm not talking Glory but about Harmony.

The key to Harmony was divided in two, allowing Harmony to hide away.

Which I find kinda sus.

I'd respect Harmony a lot if it was actually willing to fight and put itself at risk for taking over the world.

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I kind of get where you're coming from, but honestly this line of thought is where you start to loose me. I think you tend to lay the intent of a lot of things on the feet of Harmony. It was the Forge of Days the broke the Mirror Door and more then likely sealed the path to Glory. It's just as likely that the Forge of Days created Harmony and sealed the path to Glory leaving Harmony to act. We know from the notes left behind that the Alicorns weren't taught anything about the Manse and the Worms. It seems much more likely that Harmony doesn't really understand anything about them either which is why the Master's plan was to teach it to hide.

 

[Sveta08]

It wasn't that it was deemed to high a price it was that foolishly trust was placed in moral self righteousness and Harmony.

Despite us already knowing by then that to place trust in Harmony was to suffer and lament.

That the thread choose to continue to have more suffering by following Harmony after Twilight makes me sad. To have Fallen so far by following Harmony and still learned nothing.

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... You know what? Nah.
I was gonna lead with an opener, a discussion, a hope towards something brighter and then examination. But nah.
I'm tired of this message.



Harmony is not ignorant.
Harmony once was, but is not ignorant. This, I believe quite wholeheartedly and firmly. There are things that it once knew that it no longer... articulates, but it is not ignorant. The concept, the metaphysical representation, the embodiment in force, the Thing We Call Harmony is not ignorant to the nature of the Worms.

It's inarticulate. And it's difficult to work with. But that's because we are ignorant of Harmony. We have not followed Harmony one bit.

We know it's a thing, and that it has force in the world, but that's it. We don't know whether it is supposed to be or act as a Reflection of the Lores, or an Addition to the Lores, or a Subversion of the Lores, or anything. The only practisioners of Harmony were mere dabbling novices at the faintest edges of Harmony, the Mane Six, and their "studies" into Harmony were thrown off course in a serious way with how Velvet has touched "Canon." Their "Cult Leader" of Celestia was thrown off the deep end and was made to fear for Luna's sake.

For goodness sake, there were Locks! Locks on each and every one of the doors in the mind of Luna once upon a time. Locks emblazoned with symbols we represent and associate with Harmony. The world itself is not consumed with Worms! For a thousand years, Harmony and it's practitioners, and those it influences, managed to keep away the Worms, where Baldomare herself said the world would be for naught if it hadn't!
It acts! It acts in ways we cannot see and cannot look at because we don't know where to look!

Think with me, a moment, just a moment.
Were we not familiar with Cultist Simulator, what then would Lantern mean? Pretend you know nothing, and look with blind eyes. What then would Lantern mean? It's a force that's not a force but more akin to a law, that is something about brightness, about revealing things, about seeing things? Is that what we would think?
But we are not ignorant to Lantern. We are not ignorant to the system that this is drawn. Called by name Artifacts and Lores and Histories and Paths. I would wager that Velvet was made with a Wound because we knew it could be healed. We Knew Things and that shaped what we picked.
We learned Lore because we knew it would provide bonus. We knew it would assist on our path. We Knew, and acted with that knowledge.

Harmony is an unknown.
Harmony is an unknown that by some unknown means, kept the Worms at bay for a thousand years.
Harmony is an unknown that somehow imbued itself into living Alicorns, not Hours, not Names. Creating its own rites of ascension.


It exists and we are blind to it. And it is not blind to Glory. It could not be. How else would it turn the eyes of the world from it?



Lay the fault of the world at Harmony's feet if you wish. Hate and decry and make malice towards it.
We do not know it. We have ever sought the recourse of actions and plans and ideas that we Knew would work. The Wolf is that idea at an absolute. Taking the Guarantee that it will do exactly what we want, in exactly the way we hope it won't.
We do not know what Harmony is, how it works, how it's rites work, what it does, or even where it is. It is an unknown, and as Biedde has warned us, the Unknown is what will kill you.

I do not know the right path. I won't pretend to...

But if the days couldn't be fun nor free. If the future isn't filled with magic, of dreams and wishes brought to life. If the lives of all are not touched by kindness and love. If the world does not belong to Harmony... then why should there be a world at all.

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But Nihilism serves Nothing in a very literal sense.

 

[Shaper47]

For a thousand years, Harmony and it's practitioners, and those it influences, managed to keep away the Worms, where Baldomare herself said the world would be for naught if it hadn't!

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Harmony is an unknown that by some unknown means, kept the Worms at bay for a thousand years.

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Your reaching here.

We have absolutely no proof it's Harmony that has protected the world.

It's far more likely it's some old Wards set up by the Hours.

Wards Harmony has been sabotaging.

 

[Maer]

No problem

A "Repetition of that most abominable of fates" just screams of copying the Intercalate though.

Worms aren't mentioned by name but the Master didn't mention them by name either when she first warned about them.





Oh I'm not talking Glory but about Harmony.



Maybe, but what's stopping it from just happening again then?



The way I see it the Harmony ending isn't really what Harmony wants. It's a bargain forced upon it. It's having Harmony stop subverting the lores/Mansus under the threat of a blade at its heart.




Maybe.



Same

I might disagree with your reasoning at times but I do enjoy having such a civil discussion about this type if thing.

In truth I prefer the certainly of other powers.

The knowledge that there goal is to protect the world from the worms is comforting compared to the uncertainty regarding Harmony's intentions.

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The only danger mentioned- in any capacity- is the dark. Space is dark and empty, there are a many possible dangers in the dark- Harmony only has to know it is dangerous, to be in the dark, it has every chance of not knowing why the dark is dangerous.



I know you were talking about Harmony. I was using Glory as a comparison. They are, to the best of our awareness, closer to being like Glory than an Hour. It offers tools and power, but cannot act on its own. So I used Glory's abilities and limitations as an example. On top of that, Luna and Celestia being reunited is or Mei's of finding Harmony- however claiming they're the only way ignores that they weren't always there. There are other paths to finding Harmony, but that is the fastest and most certain that we have access to- unless MoL offers a path.

Regardless, it splitting the Outsider mashes sense- Harmony requires more than one being, and there's two celestial bodies, not just one. Plenty of reasons other than hiding- especially since their arrival would've provided another path, added another method of finding it- not hidden it. Harmony isn't hiding, not actively, and it isn't seeking to be hidden. Otherwise it wouldn't have offered an additional path to finding it. It wants hands, people to serve its interests since it can't act on its own to fulfill its desires and purposes.



New elements of Harmony, the light being brighter and Harmony assuming that would chase the darkness back further. It isn't right, but Harmony only knows that light kills the darkness and pushes it back. It knows the darkness is dangerous. So in its limited understanding, it's trying to push the danger away by growing brighter. It may have THOUGHT it wouldn't be a problem anymore, or simply not had the tools to solve the issue- unlike us.



The way I see it, Harmony is afraid of the dark and doesn't understand what is dangerously out why everything keeps going wrong- it certainly doesn't know what The Lores are, much less The Mansus or Glory. It is expanding, subverting and claiming dominion without understanding or knowledge. It is blindly seeking the power to protect Equestria from the only source it can sense or is aware of- if that encroaches on The Mansus, it isn't intentional or even something it is necessarily aware of.

The Harmony ending is, therefore, teaching a child what the truths of the world are, and WHY the darkness is dangerous- as well as why hiding is the safest course of action, and how to do so.




This… I could see reckless kindness, maybe.



Same. :3
———

Then came Delighted and pointed out many things. So minor thoughts to change:

It knows of the dark and that there are dangers creatures there. It knows that light hurts, kills, and pushes away the monsters therein. So it seeks to make as much light as possible, either not knowing that it draws the Worms, thinking that being able to kill then is better than rushing a strong one chancing across them, or simply not knowing how to hide and chasing strength and power as it sees no other option.

It likely knows Glory is… there. It likely is aware that some great and tremendous peer is 'in that direction'. However Glory was abandoned by ponies after racing it became impossible, and that fact became common knowledge. Harmony had little, if any role in that. The Lores risks and dangers were worth it to reach Glory… but if Glory can't be reached… is it truly worth it at all? If Harmony was involved, it offered less dangerous and deadly options for reaching power- that's all it would take.

Harmony and Glory are in similar states- Glory by the actions of another, Harmony because it was and is ignorant- less than it was at the start, but still more ignorant than not. It only JUST learned of the Lores, or only JUST learned how to study and make use of them. In either case, after 1,000 years that is a horrifying gap for its knowledge of the world to have. It had no hands to act, or mouths to speak until the sister. They were its first true agents with major power invested in them, and the Worms took one. That is when I suspect Harmony learned of what exactly the danger in the dark was.

Then, the mane Six. If it truly took 1,000 years for it to get another set of agents that it could work with, and save its lunar agent, then what limits it is working under are concerningly strict.

That is, again, ignorance and limitation, not malice. Especially when we've neutered almost every attempt it's made to set things to right. It is trying, but what options does it have to work with? Especially given its limited knowledge and understanding?

Reckless kindness… more like kindness without realizing the consequences. Seeking the only option it knows to combat the monsters in the darkness. Until its agent discovered Lantern. Luna is trying to save Celestia, but has access to powers that neither she nor Harmony yet understand. Until we finish teaching her.

Even then… no guarantee it reaches Harmony. Hope, but no guarantee…

———

Shaper again. We know that the wards were there. We know that they are failing or have failed. We know Harmony was here before the Wards fell (more evidence it didn't know what the Outsider was fleeing) and we know that Harmony- lacking knowledge of the Wards- only knows that something changed, and it doesn't know any other way to try and fix things.

As for Harmony fighting the Worms… that's a passive effect of the light it produces. Even if it didn't know about them, it passively killed the Worms that got through the Wards. With those gone, its light is NOW a problem, but was not then. After all, Luna was meant to protect Equestrian's dreams. If that was her Harmony given duty, then what else could she be protecting them from, other than the monsters in the Dark? The Worms? What other threats are there in the Dreamlands? Aside from Nightmares.

I just… Harmony is l, in my understanding, less competent/knowledgeable than Delighted claims, but also FAR from malicious or dominating like you seem to think. Again… it is Harmony. Friendship is the magic it seeks to spread. It doesn't dominate, its entire point odd to work alongside others, to support and encourage and strengthen through cooperation. To grow the light.

We need to reach Glory, if only so we can actively fix things.

—— personal thoughts and random ideas ——

If we had sought Harmony, we could have helped it hide and support Glory instead of overtaking it. But… that's just conjecture and baseless theorizing.

Still… it makes sense to me. Perhaps the Forge of Days' greatest creation was an entity akin to Glory, and created to support and enhance it, designed and entirely embodying the concept of Cooperation and Harmony so it would not conflict with or combat Glory.

Of course, that's even more baseless and half baked. But still. The idea is interesting to me.

 

[Shaper47]

The only danger mentioned- in any capacity- is the dark. Space is dark and empty, there are a many possible dangers in the dark-

Click to shrink...

The Master described the Worms in terms of creeping darkness.

So I'm pretty sure it's a known synonym for the Worms.

There are other paths to finding Harmony, but that is the fastest and most certain that we have access to- unless MoL offers a path

Click to shrink...

I'm very sure this isn't a thing as the QM has been very clear about this.

Each possible ending has a door and a key.

Glory's door is the crucibles-ward and the key is the trait "Blood of the Outsider"

Harmony's door is unknown but probably found though memory of light research and the key is Luna/Selene + Celestia.

The Old Mansus door is found at the old moon, no idea about that key.

The Wolf is the door as a wound is a door and the key is Velvet Covers.

So there are no other ways to Harmony just like there are no other ways to Glory.

 

[Maer]

The Master described the Worms in terms of creeping darkness.

So I'm pretty sure it's a known synonym for the Worms.



I'm very sure this isn't a thing as the QM has been very clear about this.

Each possible ending has a door and a key.

So there are no other ways to Harmony just like there are no other ways to Glory.

Click to shrink...

Known for us, yes. For Harmony? Not so sure. After all, if I speak to someone from Equestria about Atoms, or War, we will each have VERY different understanding of what that is or looks like. War may be an understood concept in Equestria, but only in a clinical, technical sense. There has not truly been a war there in over a thousand years.

There is active war in our modern day.

Atoms are known to us in far greater detail than they likely are in Equestria- if they even exist in the same way in a realm with magic.

What Harmony understands darkness to mean may not be what it truly is. Or may lack the fullness of what we understand it to be. Danger in a more abstract sense than we know it. Though, after Selene was interred on the moon, it may have had more insight and understanding.





Yes, for US. However, that's due to the circumstances and the Mechanics of the game. Glory? Literally only one option- you need power from Outside. Blood of the Outsider, or an Outsider themself- though the second option is a no-go thanks to the danger inherent in giving an Outsider access to Glory.

So Blood is the only valid option for us, though that has more than one option. Celestia, Luna, and now this third source. It can be obtained from multiple sources- multiple keys to the lock.

Harmony? That doesn't have a Mansus. There is no known 'House of Harmony'. No path to climb. Celestia and Luna are the only known keys to the lock, but there could be more than one, given the Elements are also potent examples of Harmony's power. Or were.

The Moon? That is a location that has only one access and a simple requirement. One that can be achieved from personal or Baldomare options. Multiple keys to the lock.

The Wolf has the most options- so many ways to Unmake that will Stain us if we choose to seek those out.

Even if there is only one destination, there are multiple paths to reach it for each one. Potentially even more, if we had the time and inclination to find them all. Which we don't. I would love to have more Harmony, but that's already being worked on.

I would love to have less darkness- but we're working on a solution that will make such things more safely possible.

I would love to see it all turn out right…
But when has it ever?



In short: There are many paths through the Mansus, though they all lead to the next step up the climb. There are many keys to each lock, though there is only one lock. Luna and Celestia are not the lock, they are one set of the keys. The lock is discovering Harmony and communing with it. The Elements may possibly be an alternative, or maybe the Tree. But one thing is for certain:

It doesn't matter because it is FAR too late to go after that or even investigate it much. With free actions that have few other uses? Like Jade this turn? Sure. Not a problem to investigate since it costs almost nothing.
On almost any other turn it wouldn't be worth it, though…