Commercial Break (Worm / Slut Life) (Borderline SFW)

[Guardian54]

Better to have a tool and never use it then need it and not have it. I personally find almost all forms of "psychic" powers as nightmare fuel, but wold be willing to personally sacrifice a lot to get them even if I would probably never have a chance to use them...

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I 100% agree with you. It is always best to keep overwhelming force on-hand, especially when you want to do live captures. Mercy is a privilege, only viable for those who are so overwhelmingly powerful that they can afford such.
If some guy trying to commit crime gets levitated by a Galactic Colossus and instructed to surrender or be taken more forcefully, they will generally surrender with much less fuss or risk to bystanders than doing this without such overwhelming force (a 130m tall mecha using its speakers is listened to more than some random person yelling at you)

If you almost get stomped, and you know you can stomp them one way or another if you actually used your power, then you are obligated to use your power unless you are TOO DUMB TO LIVE. *pant, pant...* don't mind me, I'm just scarred for life by self-righteous morality-wanks like Harry Potter--the first four books were good but the end of the fifth was WTF USE REDUCTO YOU IMBECILE and all the "oh you can do retarded shit and still win" later on made me SICK. Teddy is an orphan because of your inability to put Death Eaters down, Harry, and don't you EVER forget that!

If you are not willing to make compromises on everything about yourself if necessary in a war of survival, then perhaps you are not fit to win. In such a struggle there are in the end two sides: Justified and Dead.

Well, actually, this went from "Harry indirectly inflicted most of his own side's losses" to full-blown PTSD due to The Worm/SupCom Fic That Must Not Be Named, but I do still recommend marathoning said fic for a primer on Epic Scale Tinker Taylors.

For other examples of my agreement, see my most recent infraction on Sufficient Velocity for example of how vehemently I agree. It's in the California ISOT 2018 to 1850 thread. Or, as richly discussed in "The Little Ship That Could" (Worm/KanColle) on SB during the gang war, if a thousand hooligans decide to go lynch one person, the correct option for law enforcement is to mow down the hooligans.

I guess we're disagreed there, because I don't want such superpowers for the same reason why I actively avoid any positions of power, even moderation positions on Discord for example. I don't trust myself, I'm bad at it and I don't want the pressure anyway.

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I recommend reading A Farmer's Tale over on SB. The whole thread, not just story posts.
The thread basically agrees that if you're going to make any changes at all (i.e. not resign yourself to just vaguely existing, and try to live life at all) then you will need to take on power and responsibilities. Doing nothing is just asking to get killed in a random whim by someone with power, and the same applies to Worm. If you don't have powers you're just another collateral damage statistic.

And for choosing to not have the ability to defend yourself (very different from choosing not to use such an ability, which can be considered maskirovka i.e. deception)? That's a Darwin Award.

I recommend you go be a Buddhist monk*, because they seem preach the most about everything being meaningless. You will very quickly find that even monks have the responsibility of working for food.

*NOTE: I started flat-out HATING monks who join before their children are fully grown after watching a documentary in university on this guy, the last Chinese Buddhist Master: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Yi
He decided to have a son with a Japanese woman, at a time when only children fathered by Japanese were allowed into Japan. Tensions against Japanese people were growing in China by the time he decided abruptly that "hey, vacationing in a temple is pretty relaxing" and ran off for his own "enlightenment" and ditch his wife and kid. In other words he threw a tantrum about his life being stressful despite being reasonably well-off and flounced off in a ragequit huff. Then he made a name and money for himself by selling calligraphy.
As far as I am concerned he and others who do such things are not worthy of being considered human. Happily, it seems that you are very unlikely to imitate him as you are more honest to yourself and to others about your desire for the privilege of apathy.

 

[Silvercrystal]

I guess we're disagreed there, because I don't want such superpowers for the same reason why I actively avoid any positions of power, even moderation positions on Discord for example. I don't trust myself, I'm bad at it and I don't want the pressure anyway.

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I guessed that is the difference, I trust myself and my self control, as do others.

 

[The Unicorn]

Jonakhensu
Very nice story, also very interesting how much development you're putting into developing the contract...without actually giving either us or Taylor any additional information about it.
Given that this is in the SFW section how are you planning to handle the actual SL session with Taylor seemingly willing to have sex during it? Just have a timeskip past it?

Looking forward for more of this (although not waiting for you to get past the contract set up, you've managed to keep it quite interesting so far)

The best analogy I can come up with is "I really shouldn't leave myself so open to people touching my skin, but someone might be allergic to the cloth my only workable defence to such would be made of, so..." *GOES STREAKING IN CROWDED SHOPPING MALL*

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You seriously can't think of a better analogy? How about guns? or Martial Arts? i.e "people are at risk of being mugged/attacked so in order to help prevent that I'm going to avoid getting the means of defending myself" You'll note that unlike your "analogy" this does not involve someone doing something they were raised from practically birth to know was wrong and which no one around them does, and instead just has them avoid doing something useful for ridiculous reasons (as Taylor is doing in the story). Also unlike your "analogy" this is something plenty of people do in RL.

I do not disagree with you it's incredibly stupid, but it's something plenty of people do.

 

[CrimsonFate]

While I doubt this would make her get psychic powers but it will make her think more on her choices on it could benefit herself.

 

[Guardian54]

You seriously can't think of a better analogy? How about guns? or Martial Arts? i.e "people are at risk of being mugged/attacked so in order to help prevent that I'm going to avoid getting the means of defending myself" You'll note that unlike your "analogy" this does not involve someone doing something they were raised from practically birth to know was wrong and which no one around them does, and instead just has them avoid doing something useful for ridiculous reasons (as Taylor is doing in the story). Also unlike your "analogy" this is something plenty of people do in RL.

I do not disagree with you it's incredibly stupid, but it's something plenty of people do.

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I chose that analogy to not be so ham-fisted. Also given Brockton Bay operates by the law of the jungle... going around without equipping yourself with whatever defences you can get (especially hidden defences like Psionics) IS a matter of "runs around naked because I'm afraid someone will be allergic to my clothing choices" level STUPID.

I could easily have quoted EdBecerra's revelation from SB on a certain page of The Little Ship That Could. Here's the source https://forums.spacebattles.com/thr...tai-colle-cross.379348/page-124#post-22538303

I once met a young woman who bragged she had solved all the world's violent crime problems, that she couldn't be robbed, raped or killed.

Being stupidly curious, I asked how.

Her reply was that she'd give a robber everything she had before he could rob her, spread her own legs faster than a rapist could rape her, and commit suicide to prevent a murderer from getting his hands bloody. Seriously. She said that.

The level of utter STUPID in that statement made me leave the party immediately.

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That is roughly the level "Because learning to counter Masters requires I get some level of Master capability myself that no one else ever has to know about, I'm going to leave myself wide open to Masters" and other such Typically Taylor Hebert Statements reach to me, before I rationalize them away as "mentally ill".

Then we get to particularly long-winded fics where they make the same mistakes over and over and keep failing to win because they refuse to use their power. Add some serious wangst and I lost my rationality and shift stance to "DIE ALREADY".

If only Darwin wasn't stopped from collecting his due by Author Fiat...

I went back and edited in a less over-nerfed example. I fully expected myself to WILDLY strawman on such an argument so I didn't want to use anything serious to start off.

Imagine fanon Void_Cowboy, give him Spree or Crusader's power but making straw men instead. That's what others have informed me I vaguely post like (any particularly long posts are right, infracted, or both).

 

[GladiusLucix]

Except we have no way of knowing that Taylor picking up telepathy, which was the only psychic power available in the CYOA and only let you send messages to someone else, would actually give her any means of protecting herself from Master powers.

 

[Guardian54]

Except we have no way of knowing that Taylor picking up telepathy, which was the only psychic power available in the CYOA and only let you send messages to someone else, would actually give her any means of protecting herself from Master powers.

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Did you read the new chapter?

"Without being psychic, there is only so much you can do"

Guess what Telepathy is? A FOOT IN THE DOOR OF PSIONICS.
If you gained Telepathy, congrats, you are now a Psionic, and can start learning other Psionic/psychic powers.

But of course Taylor's not going to do the equivalent of secretly bringing a baton or pepper spray, because she could potentially mug or frighten someone with it... *spits on ground*

 

[Jonakhensu]

and that right there shows that Taylor wasn't thinking... if she took the Psychic enhancement she would likely end up being resistant to human type masters, three of which are big nasties. Ziz, Heartbreaker, Valfore (IIRC)

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Unfortunately, there is one thing that makes this idea fall flat... though Taylor wouldn't know it, so... yeah. Anyway, the issue is: There are no will-saves in Worm.

Assuming Fiorenza wasn't actively scanning at the time, it's entirely possible she wouldn't notice the mental attack until it's too late. And, once her mind has been conditioned to love Heartbreaker and to trust him unconditionally, why would she undo the changes he made to her brain? He made them, thus they are good.

The meeting with Taylor was basically to make sure she wouldn't pull a Kephri on any psychic who happened to pass into range. The rest of the tests were just bonuses.

I'd say that she just finds the powers disturbing by default.

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Mostly this. Also, it's entirely possible that Taylor knows about Canary's ongoing trial. Even the slightest resemblance to Ziz is a mark against you in the eyes of the average person on Earth Bet. Honestly, I'm surprised Lisa want's to be thought of as psychic, considering all the prejudice against them. Adding the ability to talk to people telepathically and send them your emotions (the only thing available with the contract Taylor is using) would just make things worse if anyone, and I do mean anyone found out about it.

Better to have a tool and never use it then need it and not have it. I personally find almost all forms of "psychic" powers as nightmare fuel, but wold be willing to personally sacrifice a lot to get them even if I would probably never have a chance to use them...

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You're assuming it's a tool that can be turned off. Taylor has no indication this is the case, and there is a difference between "I can send messages to people" and "I know what everyone around me is thinking, at all times, and can't stop hearing them." One is useful. The other drives you insane at worst and makes you a walking privacy and security violation at best.

Fixes:

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Thanks, I fixed the ones I feel needed fixing.

"myself" implies the subject of the first part is "I", which conflicts with "we've"

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You're right, "we've" should have been "I've", but it's dialog, and no one is perfect constantly, so I don't see a reason to change it. What she meant is "The fact that I can stand next to you without needing to defend myself demonstrates that you are safe to stand next to."

Given that this is in the SFW section how are you planning to handle the actual SL session with Taylor seemingly willing to have sex during it? Just have a timeskip past it?

Looking forward for more of this (although not waiting for you to get past the contract set up, you've managed to keep it quite interesting so far)

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I'm mostly going to focus on relationship stuff and other SFW aspects of the year while acknowledging that sex will and does happen. For instance, I'll write up the set up of the sex scene and then gloss over it or end the scene, depending. If I do feel the need to write a sex scene, it won't be plot-relevant and will go into a second thread.

I'll also be using some time skips, but not over anything plot relevant if I can help it.

I wasn't planning on doing this, but... I feel I need to. And even then, I'm not addressing everything, because I don't care about morality arguments involving Harry Potter.

1. What?
Taylor, TAYLOR, Do you not know that heroes voluntarily confront AKA attack villains and criminals? As in "I see a mugger attacking someone and I decide to attack the mugger verbally/mentally (e.g. threat of violent subdual) and/or physically to stop him."
Every single hero starts out by attacking people!

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Please explain how firefighters, paramedics, search and rescue workers, doctors, etc. don't count as heroes.

Also, even the 'heroes' in Worm tend to start with "Patrol to act as a deterrent and find people who need help." Attacking people comes after that.

Also, it depends on how you define attack. Did Taylor attack Lung, or did she jump to the defense of some unknown children? It might be a fine line, but you can draw it if you want. Considering Taylor was planning on leaving Lung the hell alone until killing kids was mentioned, I know where I'd put that line.

2. The amount of terminal stupidity needed to not ask to get Psychic powers after such a display when you're that paranoid about Masters...
The best analogy I can come up with is "I really shouldn't leave myself so open to people touching my skin, but someone might be allergic to the cloth my only workable defence to such would be made of, so..." *GOES STREAKING IN CROWDED SHOPPING MALL*

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Yes, become a psychic, become confident that you're mind is unassailable. Walk up to Nikos Vasil and become his next thrall, because Worm doesn't care about mental resistance.

False confidence is worse than no confidence a lot of the time.

Panacea can deal with that no problem.

If someone who only becomes radioactive as he amps up is reasonable otherwise and pretty strong already for most threats, but can amp up to quickly drive off an Endbringer then that's more than worth a little radiation fork for healer capes.

Also, taking gamma radiation projection powers that you never actually use but gives you immunity to radiation would just be a defence stat for Behemoth battles.

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You are assuming Panacea is there, and that the radiation didn't also affect the brain. The Endbringers are also dense enough that Gamma emissions would not seriously damage them without being strong enough to mimic Behemoth's kill aura. Panacea can't fix dead.

I 100% agree with you. It is always best to keep overwhelming force on-hand, especially when you want to do live captures. Mercy is a privilege, only viable for those who are so overwhelmingly powerful that they can afford such.
If some guy trying to commit crime gets levitated by a Galactic Colossus and instructed to surrender or be taken more forcefully, they will generally surrender with much less fuss or risk to bystanders than doing this without such overwhelming force (a 130m tall mecha using its speakers is listened to more than some random person yelling at you)

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Yes, overwhelming force can be useful in capturing people, assuming they don't want to die and don't think they can take you anyway. What being so powerful actually does is put a target on the back of everyone you care about. That is, unless you don't care about anyone. If you care about people, you can be defeated by having them held hostage. And with people who don't care about the Unwritten Rules, it will happen eventually.

If you are not willing to make compromises on everything about yourself if necessary in a war of survival, then perhaps you are not fit to win. In such a struggle there are in the end two sides: Justified and Dead.

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"If you aren't willing to stop being you, you deserve to die." So, at what point are you sufficiently different from where you started to be considered a separate person than when you began? At which point, the initial you is effectively dead. Sometimes it's better to be dead than to no longer be who you are.

And for choosing to not have the ability to defend yourself (very different from choosing not to use such an ability, which can be considered maskirovka i.e. deception)? That's a Darwin Award.

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Where did it say Taylor isn't going to be learning to defend herself? I remember something about Fiorenza agreeing to send her some books?

Ah, here we go.

"Without being psychic, there is only so much you can do," Fiorenza admitted. "Though there are some meditation and mental exercises that can help. If you like, I can see about sending you a book on beginner's techniques."

"I'd appreciate that, thanks," Taylor said, calming down significantly. Simply having the promise of a goal to work toward seemed to do the girl a world of good.

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Why, look at that. Taylor is doing absolutely nothing to defend herself... other than learning how to defend herself. As she learns, it's possible her feelings will change. That's what character development is for, after all.

That is roughly the level "Because learning to counter Masters requires I get some level of Master capability myself that no one else ever has to know about, I'm going to leave myself wide open to Masters" and other such Typically Taylor Hebert Statements reach to me, before I rationalize them away as "mentally ill".

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As far as I can tell, your issue with Taylor is that she doesn't have meta knowledge and isn't Space Battles Competent. At this point, all I can do is suggest you look elsewhere for your perfect Taylor. You aren't going to find her here.

Also, if you dislike what I'm doing with this story so much, why don't you put your keyboard where your mouth is. Write your own version, as mine is likely to be fundamentally incompatible with your expectations. Then again, based on comments you've made both here and in Ack's fic, your expectations are fundamentally incompatible with your expectations.

 

[Da-Guru]

Guys. You're missing the point. Yes, Taylor is being irrational about psychic powers. But she's a 15 year old. Being irrational comes with the territory. Combine that with the prejudice of the world she comes from, and it's easy to see why she didn't want anything to do with psychics.

 

[Heraldoftruth]

and that right there shows that Taylor wasn't thinking... if she took the Psychic enhancement she would likely end up being resistant to human type masters, three of which are big nasties. Ziz, Heartbreaker, Valfore (IIRC)

all in all nice chapter.

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Based on my recollection of Ziz's powers, being psychic is no defence. If I remember correctly, Ziz is a combined pre-cog and telekinetic. She uses telekinesis to manipulate your brain on a physical level and uses precognition to make manipulations that lead to the result she wants. While I'm not sure of the exact mechanism psychics use, I don't think anything could truly protect you from her. I think Alec and Kephri also work on a physical level as those being mastered know what they are doing but can't stop it. It makes me wonder if that was an intentional theme of the author's.

 

[GladiusLucix]

Did you read the new chapter?

"Without being psychic, there is only so much you can do"

Guess what Telepathy is? A FOOT IN THE DOOR OF PSIONICS.
If you gained Telepathy, congrats, you are now a Psionic, and can start learning other Psionic/psychic powers.

But of course Taylor's not going to do the equivalent of secretly bringing a baton or pepper spray, because she could potentially mug or frighten someone with it... *spits on ground*

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Except, here's what the CYOA says you get with Telepathy:

You will be able to share your thoughts and feelings with others telepathically. You can also talk to others in this way, but they can only respond if they also have the same ability. You will be able to talk with your personal AI using telepathy.

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Nothing about psychic potential, nothing about learning to do more with it. It could be entirely mechanical for all we know. You're just assuming it could be more to fit your power fantasy and to shit on Jonakhensu's writing.

 

[Guardian54]

0. Unfortunately, there is one thing that makes this idea fall flat... though Taylor wouldn't know it, so... yeah. Anyway, the issue is: There are no will-saves in Worm.

1. Please explain how firefighters, paramedics, search and rescue workers, doctors, etc. don't count as heroes.
Also, even the 'heroes' in Worm tend to start with "Patrol to act as a deterrent and find people who need help." Attacking people comes after that.
Also, it depends on how you define attack. Did Taylor attack Lung, or did she jump to the defense of some unknown children? It might be a fine line, but you can draw it if you want. Considering Taylor was planning on leaving Lung the hell alone until killing kids was mentioned, I know where I'd put that line.

2. Yes, become a psychic, become confident that you're mind is unassailable. Walk up to Nikos Vasil and become his next thrall, because Worm doesn't care about mental resistance.
False confidence is worse than no confidence a lot of the time.

3. You are assuming Panacea is there, and that the radiation didn't also affect the brain. The Endbringers are also dense enough that Gamma emissions would not seriously damage them without being strong enough to mimic Behemoth's kill aura. Panacea can't fix dead.

4. Yes, overwhelming force can be useful in capturing people, assuming they don't want to die and don't think they can take you anyway. What being so powerful actually does is put a target on the back of everyone you care about. That is, unless you don't care about anyone. If you care about people, you can be defeated by having them held hostage. And with people who don't care about the Unwritten Rules, it will happen eventually.

5. "If you aren't willing to stop being you, you deserve to die." So, at what point are you sufficiently different from where you started to be considered a separate person than when you began? At which point, the initial you is effectively dead. Sometimes it's better to be dead than to no longer be who you are.

6. Where did it say Taylor isn't going to be learning to defend herself? I remember something about Fiorenza agreeing to send her some books?

7. As far as I can tell, your issue with Taylor is that she doesn't have meta knowledge and isn't Space Battles Competent.

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0. In-character, does Taylor know this? Because if you ask her "do you want these nitrile gloves, knowing that you'll later have to hide them out in public due to lots of people having glove-phobia, or do you want to handle that vial of suspicious liquid bare-handed" a sane or at least reasonably rational person SHOULD want the gloves... when she doesn't know that the liquid in question goes right through nitrile gloves!
Taking the books (safety pamphlets in this analogy) is a good idea, as they talk about safe handling procedures, but she would still absolutely take the gloves with only IC knowledge!

1. Canon Taylor didn't market herself as an extermination service because she didn't consider janitors, preventors of many pandemics, to be heroic enough. Someone hasn't been paying enough attention to the history of Black Death, Leprosy, and Cholera... all quite curious given her backstory should have her bookish enough to know plenty about the former two at LEAST.
It's pretty obvious what Taylor Hebert considers heroing: Running around in a costume beating up and taking in "bad guys".
She consciously decided to exert violent force upon Lung, who was unaware of her presence and certainly not consenting to such force. That is a surprise attack, a type of attack, and therefore, yes, Taylor attacked Lung.

2. This is like wearing a condom. You do what you can to be as protected as you can. If you're dumb enough to just stroll up to a nutter while knowing what he's like as opposed to terminating him from longer range (i.e. knowingly having sex with someone with AIDS while you don't have it yourself instead of staying far, far away), congratulations on your Darwin Award.

3. I was responding with "well, if they were Hulk powers...". According to some Hulk-Taylor story threads on SB, if they get really, REALLY overcharged they start emitting radiation. I argue that in that case it's not an issue as she can fight anyone short of an Endbringer without throwing off radiation, and if she's fighting an Endbringer a relatively minor amount of radiation (compared to what Behemoth routinely slings around) is nothing compared to driving off the Endbringer quickly.
And I DID specify that "even if it's just emission of radiation" (instead of The Hulk) "if it makes you immune to radiation you can still be useful at Behemoth fights"?

4. If you're that powerful you can generally hide your identity, and pity the fools who think they can take you even with hostages. There won't be enough of them after a while by sheer natural selection, kind of like how terrorists haven't generally made it all that far against most powerful governments, which have monopoly of force...

5. This "fundamental, immutable identity" obsession of teenagers utterly baffles me. You are not the same person as you were a second ago. You are not the same person you were yesterday. The child you is very, very dead. If you can't acknowledge exceptions to your self-imposed rules, then you are immutable, and only utterly dead things come reasonably close to being immutable. Life is change. Growing up is change and adaptation to new data. A teenager that remains the exact same identity is going to be rather mentally deficient by the end of their teen years.

6. When you set your mind to defending against something, and there are multiple methods of defence, to only focus on one due to "waaah the others are icky" is a great way to get killed.

7. My problem with Taylor is her backstory.
Danny Hebert could not possibly have kept the DWU in a controlled descent/crash that long as a work gang (needs to have enough critical mass to meet demand surges) without enough legal, contractual, and interpersonal competence to be able to eat Winslow alive post-Locker with his pinky finger. If he couldn't basically loot the school for all they're worth, the DWU would have basically been a mid-air fireball instead.
Annette Hebert was an English prof, which basically guarantees that Taylor would be well-read one way or another. Yet we don't see "I've seen this scenario before in a book..." at all, and the amount of self-reflection is summarized by someone else as "Gee, I really shouldn't do this unpleasant thing" *DOES IT ANYWAYS* "I shouldn't do that again" *DOES IT AGAIN!* which... you don't expect of someone particularly well-read and capable of self-reflection.
And... that backstory does not feasibly bring us Gestation 1.1. Which is a problem.
And if we go by that backstory? Taylor wouldn't start out with what seems like a "Japanese Anime Middle Schooler" (i.e. far tinier and underdeveloped than any realistic 12-year-old) level of black-and-white mentality, unless she used regression as a mental defence mechanism.
Worm is a great setting. Some of the character backstories though... seem a bit closer to shonen mangas than plausibility. Worm seems to be going for a more plausible version of superhero settings, as opposed to "Normal Murica culturally, but with some folks with powers" nonsense, so on this aspect it kind of makes for irritation by readers of basically anyone starting with an Early Canon Taylor, a character who has notable Head-Up-Ass Syndrome. Given the state of Earth Bet and Brockton Bay in particular, Taylor should probably grow up with a mindset that seems more like our world's Somalia than our world's USA.

Since you can't really do anything about Point 7, please focus on Point 0 above. Is it in-character, and does it rely on only in-character knowledge? Because I'm pretty sure with the fear of Masters on Bet, any anti-Master measures are going to be seen as better than none. THAT is part of why I expect what you call hyper-competence.

Nothing about psychic potential, nothing about learning to do more with it. It could be entirely mechanical for all we know.

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The difference between science and any form of "magic" that can be taught at all? How well-studied it is. Because if you have actual laws in science and it can be taught, it's already a science like how alchemy was early chemistry, you just haven't worked out all the details yet, it doesn't mean you can't science the shit out of it.

And getting telepathy to try to work out how it works is a first step toward serious Psionics. Who knows? If it's entirely mechanical that sounds like typical Worm-verse Masters... which means Armsmaster's anti-Master helmet might see some experimentation...

 

[The Unicorn]

Except, here's what the CYOA says you get with Telepathy:

Nothing about psychic potential, nothing about learning to do more with it. It could be entirely mechanical for all we know. You're just assuming it could be more to fit your power fantasy and to shit on Jonakhensu's writing.

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Fixed. I wouldn't go that far, and if you think he went that far you should just click the report button and not reply to him.

 

[Guardian54]

Fixed. I wouldn't go that far, and if you think he went that far you should just click the report button and not reply to him.

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Thanks for defending me.

I've made some revisions in my reply to the author, like adding a point 0. Can you (others are also very welcome please) help point out logic issues I might be having, to save the author some time?

Because the standard method of forum fic debates (unless the author is particularly eager) is AFAIK for the author to only step in for stalemates or once the debate has been resolved, so I'd appreciate if you could raise some counter-points and we could mull over the issues raised by me and Silvercrystal some more before presenting a consensus (or at least a well-outlined stalemate) to the author to consider.

 

[Ack]

Thanks for defending me.

I've made some revisions in my reply to the author, like adding a point 0. Can you (others are also very welcome please) help point out logic issues I might be having, to save the author some time?

Because the standard method of forum fic debates (unless the author is particularly eager) is AFAIK for the author to only step in for stalemates or once the debate has been resolved, so I'd appreciate if you could raise some counter-points and we could mull over the issues raised by me and Silvercrystal some more before presenting a consensus (or at least a well-outlined stalemate) to the author to consider.

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Just gonna make a comment here.

You've been outspoken in both Jonakhensu and my SL fics. In fact, you've been downright vehement in the choices Taylor 'should' have made.

How about you write your own? You seem to know how it should go.

The best form of criticism is demonstrating the proper way to do it, after all.

 

[Malbutorius]

Just gonna make a comment here.

You've been outspoken in both Jonakhensu and my SL fics. In fact, you've been downright vehement in the choices Taylor 'should' have made.

How about you write your own? You seem to know how it should go.

The best form of criticism is demonstrating the proper way to do it, after all.

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Presumably a good reason not to is because they don't have the time to devote to such an involved endeavor to argue against something relatively minor when it's just easier to drop the fic entirely and move on with their life to things they'll actually enjoy or even just ignore the point that bothers them because they know it'll never be fixed let alone actually come up as a relevant story topic?

 

[edale]

If you almost get stomped, and you know you can stomp them one way or another if you actually used your power, then you are obligated to use your power unless you are TOO DUMB TO LIVE. *pant, pant...* don't mind me, I'm just scarred for life by self-righteous morality-wanks like Harry Potter--the first four books were good but the end of the fifth was WTF USE REDUCTO YOU IMBECILE and all the "oh you can do retarded shit and still win" later on made me SICK. Teddy is an orphan because of your inability to put Death Eaters down, Harry, and don't you EVER forget that!

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OK, What the actual fuck are you doing ranting about Harry Potter in a Worm/Slut Life thread?

Doing nothing is just asking to get killed in a random whim by someone with power, and the same applies to Worm. If you don't have powers you're just another collateral damage statistic.

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So in other words...

There is no good and evil. Only power and those too weak to grasp it.

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Good to know you agree with Voldemort so enthusiastically.

Imagine fanon Void_Cowboy, give him Spree or Crusader's power but making straw men instead. That's what others have informed me I vaguely post like (any particularly long posts are right, infracted, or both).

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So if you know you have a problem... You're already a good chunk of the way towards fixing it.

Assuming Fiorenza wasn't actively scanning at the time, it's entirely possible she wouldn't notice the mental attack until it's too late. And, once her mind has been conditioned to love Heartbreaker and to trust him unconditionally, why would she undo the changes he made to her brain? He made them, thus they are good.

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This is actually countered by:

Training the vast majority of the psychics in this region had its advantages, and implanting a suggestion to treat her respectfully at all times into the minds of her pupils was just one of them. It even served as part of their training, as it gave them a goal to work toward: removing the various behavioral modifications and triggers that had been implanted over the years. In fact, doing so was part of the requirements for being considered a Master of the Psionic Arts.

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So yea.... With psionic mastery you would be able to reverse Heartbreaker's programming.

Then again, based on comments you've made both here and in Ack's fic, your expectations are fundamentally incompatible with your expectations.

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So I'm not the only one who noticed that?

1. Canon Taylor didn't market herself as an extermination service because she didn't consider janitors, preventors of many pandemics, to be heroic enough. Someone hasn't been paying enough attention to the history of Black Death, Leprosy, and Cholera... all quite curious given her backstory should have her bookish enough to know plenty about the former two at LEAST.
It's pretty obvious what Taylor Hebert considers heroing: Running around in a costume beating up and taking in "bad guys".
She consciously decided to exert violent force upon Lung, who was unaware of her presence and certainly not consenting to such force. That is a surprise attack, a type of attack, and therefore, yes, Taylor attacked Lung.

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And, yet again, stop talking about canon like you know it when you haven't read Worm!

Can you (others are also very welcome please) help point out logic issues I might be having, to save the author some time?

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People have been pointing out your logic issues since your first post in this thread... You ignore almost all of them and repeat the same flawed arguments.

 

[MissileTeatime]

In contrast with The Unicorn, this was the chapter where I noticed that easily 70% of this fic so far has amounted to "posting a CYOA build".

Now, it's cleverly and smoothly done -- as evidenced by the fact I'm only now noticing it -- and the rest is both exceeding my minimal-competence-standards and doing what's obviously set-up for future plot threads. So this isn't "obviously a problem" at the moment, and it may never be a problem. But if it were a naked "dump of a CYOA build", instead of a cleverly disguised one, it would be a big honkin' warning sign; instead, it's more of a "there is potential for trouble ahead, use increased caution" thing.

So uh. I'm not entirely sure where I'm going with this, beyond a "hey, I noticed this thing. Be careful, alright?"

 

[D'znn-Xy'lll MetaChthonia]

There are no will-saves in Worm.

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While I understand what you mean since all powers are basically Hand Waved as interdimensional nonsense that makes it so psionic defense wouldn't matter because it's physically screwing with the brain, it breaks for two individuals in Worm:
1: Goddess.
She got Will Saves against Khepri till Canary could circumvent her.

2: Regent.
He gets Will Saves against emotion control (hypothetically the whole Vasil family is this way due to their torture of each other. Not sure how it affects other Master powers)

I suppose Alexandria would also count and Bonesaw and Armsmaster could potentially make a defense...

The child you is very, very dead

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And I wish I could go into the past and strangle them for ruining my life. This is also one of the reasons like to see the past and future versions of myself as separate from me.

 

[Jonakhensu]

So yea.... With psionic mastery you would be able to reverse Heartbreaker's programming.

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Well, yes, you can, by why would you, when you think they must have been put there for good reason? The problem with emotions are that they aren't always rational, so it'd take longer to sort it all out, by which point Vasil would probably have other layers of control set up. So, you could do it, but it wouldn't be an immediate fix, you'd have to work on it, and he could probably replace it faster than you can remove it.

Now, it's cleverly and smoothly done -- as evidenced by the fact I'm only now noticing it -- and the rest is both exceeding my minimal-competence-standards and doing what's obviously set-up for future plot threads. So this isn't "obviously a problem" at the moment, and it may never be a problem. But if it were a naked "dump of a CYOA build", instead of a cleverly disguised one, it would be a big honkin' warning sign; instead, it's more of a "there is potential for trouble ahead, use increased caution" thing.

So uh. I'm not entirely sure where I'm going with this, beyond a "hey, I noticed this thing. Be careful, alright?"

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I knew what I was doing the whole time... which is one of the reasons I had a ten chapter buffer when I started posting. Unfortunately, real life has gotten in the way, so I only have a complete 5 chapter buffer right now.

If it helps, there's only one more chapter to this arc, and then things will start moving faster.

I don't think I ever actually list out the exact CYOA in story, actually... though I will be posting it as an extra at some point.

1: Goddess.
She got Will Saves against Khepri till Canary could circumvent her.

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She's also a trump with adaptive protections. I'm not sure she's a good counter example, since her defenses are also space whale based.

2: Regent.
He gets Will Saves against emotion control (hypothetically the whole Vasil family is this way due to their torture of each other)

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I always took Regent's resistance as a mixture of shard nonsense making it harder to effect family members and actual brain damage. I don't remember if he ever resisted any emotional manipulation that didn't come from his family.

 

[Guardian54]

How about you write your own? You seem to know how it should go.

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Don't have the time.

1. OK, What the actual fuck are you doing ranting about Harry Potter in a Worm/Slut Life thread?

2. So in other words...Good to know you agree with Voldemort so enthusiastically.

3. This is actually countered by:So yea.... With psionic mastery you would be able to reverse Heartbreaker's programming.

4. And, yet again, stop talking about canon like you know it when you haven't read Worm!

5. People have been pointing out your logic issues since your first post in this thread... You ignore almost all of them and repeat the same flawed arguments.

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1. Same Black and White Mental Blindness/Idiocy.

2. Oh there is a difference. "Good" guys tend to have a noticeably lower tendency to randomly decide to stick their nose in your stuff and rob you than "Evil" guys, but when they do decide to do so are far more committed (i.e. Evil has opportunity cost calculations, Good has obsessive DEUS VULT).
But overall? Not having powers in a superhero setting means you're most likely at best a redshirt, and more probably won't even rate an on-screen death, unless you have a serious in with some cape or capes.

3. According to some people, curing someone of brainwashing is just brainwashing them differently and thus should never be attempted. Curiously, exactly none of those who claim that are behind the barbed wire of an isolation camp, or a Simurgh Quarantine Wall.

4. The "pure canon" phenomena annoys me because it's not like you have to actually read Harry Potter to know the Hogwarts Express departs platform 9 and 3/4. Similarly, one need not ever actually read Worm to know that Lung talking about shooting "the children" is what got Taylor to decide to attack instead of sneaking away.

5. The explanations have never gone beyond "mental illness". Which is generally acceptable, but doesn't preclude me from gloating at new in-character decision-making failures.
When the author decides to get mad at me for tongue-in-cheek in response to another guy's talking about a gamma radiation emission/immunity power, yeah, uh, I'm not going to just roll over. YOU were the exact person who went "all the Hulks you could make" which led me to noting that Hulk would actually be worth dealing with a bit of gamma radiation when he's ramped up in service to Earth Bet i.e. fighting off Endbringers.

A good analogy for taking the books and refusing Telepath in an attempt to protect herself form Masters (regardless of it works) is "I'm going to look into getting a Changer power to avoid the Trio. Oh, you're offering a completely controllable Stranger power too if I want? Nah, people are scared of Strangers, so Changer's enough for me." Which is about the same as claiming that a video game unit that can get a Cloak upgrade for some minor research cost... should see the pros all not use the Cloak.

In contrast with The Unicorn, this was the chapter where I noticed that easily 70% of this fic so far has amounted to "posting a CYOA build".

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I'm pretty sure you can find that point first being raised by someone (not me) back after like the 3rd or 4th chapter.

She's also a trump with adaptive protections. I'm not sure she's a good counter example, since her defenses are also space whale based.

I always took Regent's resistance as a mixture of shard nonsense making it harder to effect family members and actual brain damage. I don't remember if he ever resisted any emotional manipulation that didn't come from his family.

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It seems to me quite unreasonable to make it so that only space whale bullshit can beat space whale bullshit. But hey, your story.

 

[The Unicorn]

Thanks for defending me.

I've made some revisions in my reply to the author, like adding a point 0. Can you (others are also very welcome please) help point out logic issues I might be having, to save the author some time?

Because the standard method of forum fic debates (unless the author is particularly eager) is AFAIK for the author to only step in for stalemates or once the debate has been resolved, so I'd appreciate if you could raise some counter-points and we could mull over the issues raised by me and Silvercrystal some more before presenting a consensus (or at least a well-outlined stalemate) to the author to consider.

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While I agree with your point about Taylor's backstory specifically:
1)You've made a bunch of unsupported assumptions about what "psychic" is and how those powers work in this story. I'm not saying you're wrong, but we, and more importantly Taylor, do not know it works like you suppose it does. Some of the other possibilities about how it works would make it difficult to impossible for Taylor to return home in any sort of timely fashion.
2)Human beings are irrational. What they're irrational about, and how they react to that is largely dependent on their culture. Taylor is from a culture that's more different from yours than that of a person from the other side of the world, your posts seem to be assuming that anyone who has different hangups than you do is too stupid to live.
3)While Taylor (or anyone else from Earth Beit) is not likely to know "there's no will save in Worm", they are likely to know there are many different types of Master that some rely on sound to carry the effect (Canary) or some sort of Pheromone, or require touch, etc. Basically Taylor knows enough not to automatically assume becoming a psychic would protect her from human masters.

Please note I'm not arguing that Taylor isn't acting illogically in regards to psychic powers in not trying to find out all the stuff she has no idea about, but the thing is we all have issues we are completely irrational about , even if we risks our lives because of them. Taylor is being illogical in a way that fits her culture and does not fit ours, that doesn't make her stupid.

 

[Guardian54]

While I agree with your point about Taylor's backstory specifically:
1)You've made a bunch of unsupported assumptions about what "psychic" is and how those powers work in this story. I'm not saying you're wrong, but we, and more importantly Taylor, do not know it works like you suppose it does. Some of the other possibilities about how it works would make it difficult to impossible for Taylor to return home in any sort of timely fashion.
2)Human beings are irrational. What they're irrational about, and how they react to that is largely dependent on their culture. Taylor is from a culture that's more different from yours than that of a person from the other side of the world, your posts seem to be assuming that anyone who has different hangups than you do is too stupid to live.
3)While Taylor (or anyone else from Earth Beit) is not likely to know "there's no will save in Worm", they are likely to know there are many different types of Master that some rely on sound to carry the effect (Canary) or some sort of Pheromone, or require touch, etc. Basically Taylor knows enough not to automatically assume becoming a psychic would protect her from human masters.

Please note I'm not arguing that Taylor isn't acting illogically in regards to psychic powers in not trying to find out all the stuff she has no idea about, but the thing is we all have issues we are completely irrational about , even if we risks our lives because of them. Taylor is being illogical in a way that fits her culture and does not fit ours, that doesn't make her stupid.

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I mostly wrote it off as pretty much what you said, hence I was just doing what was mild grumbling by my standards.
Then the author got mad because I played along with edale's joke about The Hulk.
I started getting more invested in the problem in direct response and started jabbing at how TAYLOR doesn't know IN-CHARACTER that Psionics wouldn't help!

I have problems with the canon character, but I can put that aside. What I didn't put aside was behavior that didn't seem to make sense to me in-character unless you apply "mental illness" i.e. handwavium.

1 and 3. The problem is that as you said in 3 she doesn't know it won't help against Masters, or won't help against any Masters (note the difference in emphasis). I'm pretty sure she still remembers her last tetanus booster or flu shot despite not really thinking she'd get tetanus or get serious issues with flu... So if it has any chance of helping against the sort of loss-of-control she finds UTTERLY TERRFIYING ARRRRGGGGG)!(D$@JRMXE(Mrd*(e1@R#M(uXENFXQICWMVJF<
...You get the point.
Grasping at straws is something Taylor is supposedly good at, so... lack of grasping at straws makes me think of the story of God and the drowned man. In the end of the story, the man died in a flood, then asked God why he didn't provide. And God said to him "I provided a jeep, a boat, and a helicopter". Taylor's letting this obvious "hey, this could help" float by because of her own convictions, like the man in the story telling the sheriff (warning came with jeep to warn him) that God would provide, and then telling the boat driver that God would provide, and then telling the helicopter pilot that... and then he drowned as the floodwaters rose again.

2. You are right. I have no clue what the hell Taylor's culture is like... because it makes no sense!

I have a mix of Canadian ("As Canadian as... possible under the circumstances") and Chinese ("Winners write history" in Chinese comes out to "Winners kings, Losers outlaws" if you want to be literal in the four-word idiom translation) culture. Both of my cultures intensely value pragmatism (Canadians were basically considered savage shock troopers for both world wars and even now are still "nice, but don't get them angry, you won't like them when they're angry" and China has been evolving pragmatism by repeated Malthusian Traps since before Jesus, regardless of what the state propaganda tries to teach people to do).
Then again my uncle and grandmother are so insanely bad at pragmatism that I think the being related to someone so absurdly inflexible has contributed to my stance on the matter.

A death world like Earth Bet should very much value pragmatism more instead of their United States looking like "American culture, but uglier". The pragmatism level should soar right past me to well beyond Somalia's. Instead, I'm still racing ahead of it and looking back over my shoulder in confusion.
The sort of idealism you see in early canon Taylor is "lolwut OK guess the author didn't pay that much attention to cultural worldbuilding? Oh well still an interesting setting." i.e. utterly incomprehensible to me, even if it was kept at a "black and white morality" level, let alone everything else I've seen attributed to her in fanfics.

In fact the common teenager "they're only interested in what I can do for them" angst trope in fiction is beyond my ability to grasp, and by my social circles in high and even middle school school, literally everyone understood this by the time they were like 10-12, and didn't give a flying fuck about it as long as hanging out with someone was fun enough and low-risk enough to be bothered with. And these weren't necessarily all particularly well-read people either (though they were brighter than average according to with diverse interests), so... how the hell can fanon (and IIRC canon) Taylor ever have some of these common teenage angst tropes which are quite unrelated to reality? I mean sure I'm 2 years older than her canonical age cohort but given Worm culture is literally "Murica, but shittier" which means... I can't see Taylor's mental symptoms being anything but "regression to an earlier mental state" as a defense mechanism.

TLDR: cultures on death worlds should be under intense selection for pragmatism.
Worm doesn't seem to reflect this all that well, and the fanfics tend to generally ignore this issue.
I can deal with that.
It results in me getting to lol a lot at bad decision-making (my first post after the new chapter is best backdropped by certain laughter memes, Nicholas cage is a possible candidate. That one where a moustached guy in a uniform laughs, looks at the seemingly oblivious kid standing in front of his desk and to his left, laughs some more, then slaps his knee--or the desk--while the black man in a suit sitting across from him (and beside the kid) is also grinning would also work.)

But if you decide to have Taylor's head that far up her rear end, you had better have a plan to handle that same level of idiocy or willful blindness later on, whether it's "oops, bad things happened" or "Cranial-Anal Extraction 101", make sure you have SOMETHING. Don't just use "mental illness" as handwavium.

 

[The Unicorn]

2. You are right. I have no clue what the hell Taylor's culture is like... because it makes no sense!

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There are stuff that don't make sense, what you're complaining about is that they aren't identical to your culture, and things that actually make perfect sense.

T

LDR: cultures on death worlds should be under intense selection for pragmatism.

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No. They shouldn't. Or more specifically it would be very unusual for them to do so in practice. Them CLAIMING to be pragmatic? Sure, actually being the sort of supreme pragmatism and managing to overcome their own blind spots? Not likely. You seem to have formed your own opinion about what Taylor should do, and are ignoring any reasons why she shouldn't/won't do that, then attribute Taylor not behaving like you think she should as being an idiot.

 

[Guardian54]

No. They shouldn't. Or more specifically it would be very unusual for them to do so in practice. Them CLAIMING to be pragmatic? Sure, actually being the sort of supreme pragmatism and managing to overcome their own blind spots? Not likely. You seem to have formed your own opinion about what Taylor should do, and are ignoring any reasons why she shouldn't/won't do that, then attribute Taylor not behaving like you think she should as being an idiot.

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I would shrug off Taylor being even a small fraction of the way to the sort of pragmatism that I'd expect from a Death World. The problem is that she's completely haring off in the opposite direction of that from the current American culture, which seems questionable.

...Probably because my idea of Death World culture may or may not have been calibrated by Borderlands...
...Hmm, I think I need to recalibrate things. Gimme a moment...

AHEM... anyhow, it's the frequently-depicted "thinks 60s comic book morality is real" syndrome that gets my head scratched, a lot.
It was the "heroes don't start their careers by attacking people" thing that really got me to comment this chapter in the first place. Because stopping a crime kind of absolutely requires the deliberate verbal, visual physical, etc. threat of or application of violent force. In other words, heroic cape activity by Taylor's standards involves attacking people, possibly mentally (i.e. scare them into not committing crime due to cape patrol presence).

I DO shrug off Taylor having blind spots, but that doesn't stop me from laughing at dumb decisions resulting from such when I have something else to comment on (e.g. the above "heroes don't attack people" LOLWUT moment and later on being called out for responding to edale's HULK joke).

 

[edale]

2. You are right. I have no clue what the hell Taylor's culture is like... because it makes no sense!

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Wanna know how to make Taylor's culture make sense? Read Worm.

TLDR: cultures on death worlds should be under intense selection for pragmatism.

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MLP:FiM disagrees.

and later on being called out for responding to edale's HULK joke

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You keep saying this happened... I'm not seeing it.

 

[Guardian54]

But all the Hulks you could make!

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MLP:FiM disagrees.
You keep saying this happened... I'm not seeing it.

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That feeling when someone tries to use My Little Pony as a proof for their ideas on sociological evolution...

See above for me quoting your Hulk joke.

 

[Jonakhensu]

I just need to set the record straight because I'm tired of the libel.

I DO shrug off Taylor having blind spots, but that doesn't stop me from laughing at dumb decisions resulting from such when I have something else to comment on (e.g. the above "heroes don't attack people" LOLWUT moment and later on being called out for responding to edale's HULK joke).

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I'll grant you that stopping muggers and such can be considered attacking, though I take a more nuanced view than you do of the subject. On that point, I think we'll have to agree to disagree, because it's not worth the argument. I see self defense and defense of others as separate from attacking and you don't. That's all there is to it.

Now, the part I need to clarify. I never got mad at you for responding to edale's Hulk comment, considering you edited it in after I grabbed the quote. My issue was with you saying Panacea would magically fix things, despite multiple reasons why she, or other healing capes, might not be able to help. You decided to ignore those points and focus on something I didn't even mention.

For clarity, here's your original quote (I'm skipping the edit again, as it wasn't there when I first took it).

To a quote from SystemSearcher, below:

Not worth all the littlest cancer patients.

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You responded with:

Panacea can deal with that no problem.

If someone who only becomes radioactive as he amps up is reasonable otherwise and pretty strong already for most threats, but can amp up to quickly drive off an Endbringer then that's more than worth a little radiation fork for healer capes.

Also, taking gamma radiation projection powers that you never actually use but gives you immunity to radiation would just be a defence stat for Behemoth battles.

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To which I replied with the following.

You are assuming Panacea is there, and that the radiation didn't also affect the brain. The Endbringers are also dense enough that Gamma emissions would not seriously damage them without being strong enough to mimic Behemoth's kill aura. Panacea can't fix dead.

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Please note that this response was posted at 1:30 PM EDT.

You then edited your post at 3:02 PM EDT with the following.

EDIT: I'm referring to Hulk powers, where in some depictions he ends up radioactive at extreme high ends, by this.

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Without the edit, there was no indication you were continuing with the comment chain based on edale's joke, so I had no reason to think you were talking about a hulk character powering up, especially when edale's joke was about spewing forth enough gamma radiation to turn other people into hulks... which only works in the Marvel universe, and, even then, only sometimes.

Please stop putting words into my mouth.

 

[edale]

That feeling when someone tries to use My Little Pony as a proof for their ideas on sociological evolution...

See above for me quoting your Hulk joke.

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You can't argue that MLP isn't a death world.

And I never said you didn't quote my hulk joke (which, btw, you didn't actually link to), I said no one called you out for responding to it.

 

[The Unicorn]

Wanna know how to make Taylor's culture make sense? Read Worm.

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No, that just makes it worse...Worm culture makes absolutely no sense because Wildbow didn't keep it consistent and preferred focusing on the plot and character development than trying to make the culture of the setting make sense (which in the abstract is a good thing, even if it occasionally leads to annoying contradictions).