Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

[Greymere]

That, is because I am not certain that that is the same mechanism that changelings are hiding. I don't know if the fact the changeling that the Bureau caught continually insisted they were that regular stallion to mean that they simply aren't lying to the world, or if they have forgotten what they were, or if they themselves believe to be that stallion. Ect...

Baldomare did something to the Moldywarp stone. I don't know if that permanently altered the way Changelings work, and thus they don't lie to the world, or not.

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The Lie to the World was a property of the Moldywarp's Stone's connection to the changelings, hence why they lost their ability to Lie after its destruction. The Lie wasn't (just) about shapeshifting, it was about making it literally impossible to doubt the imposter or even consider that they could be an imposter.

Edit: Anyway, could still phrase it as something like -[] (WRITE-IN) Reveal the resonance between the Lore of Moth and the changeling's innate abilities, as well as their former ability to deceive the world due to a powerful Moth Artifact, now lost due to the destruction of its source. Explicitly about the changelings and their connection to Moth without making assumptions regarding mechanism, as well as providing a thread for the Bureau to investigate regarding how the changelings managed to infiltrate so deeply and deceive even Celestia for months.

 

[Pittauro]

The Lie to the World was a property of the Moldywarp's Stone's connection to the changelings, hence why they lost their ability to Lie after its destruction. The Lie wasn't (just) about shapeshifting, it was about making it literally impossible to doubt the imposter or even consider that they could be an imposter.

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while, ironically, leaving you able to doubt about any NON actual changeling.

Which means that knowing about changelings was ACTUALLY detrimental, because you'll be paranoid about everyone EXCEPT the actual changelings!

 

[Sveta08]

The Lie to the World was a property of the Moldywarp's Stone connection to the changelings, hence why they lost their ability to Lie after its destruction. The Lie wasn't (just) about shapeshifting, it was about making it literally impossible to doubt the imposter or even consider that they could be an imposter.

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... Right. And I could edit it to that end, but I... I don't know. That feels like too grand a narrative to try and work.

Not to mention....
Baldomare did not tell Velvet about the Moldywarp stone. I don't believe she even knows about it

 

[Limabot]

[X] Nothing.

[X] Plan: Reforging and Warning

[X] Plan: Secrets better left Forgotten

 

[Greymere]

... Right. And I could edit it to that end, but I... I don't know. That feels like too grand a narrative to try and work.

Not to mention....
Baldomare did not tell Velvet about the Moldywarp stone. I don't believe she even knows about it

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Yeah I realized that after I wrote it. I do think "-[] (WRITE-IN) The connection between the Lore of Moth and the changelings' innate abilities, as well as their former ability to Lie to the World" would still work though. It's not really that grand of a narrative. Just "these things have abilities that are connected to this specific Lore, and it used to be even stronger".

Edit: And, if the intent of talking about Moth and the changelings is to 'anchor' the Lores to something known, it's better to tell Bird that we want to explicitly draw a connection between Moth and the Changelings rather than using a reflavored treatise. If you don't want to edit your old plan, I could write up a variant?

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

I'm just happy as long as we reveal the existence of unexploded Eldritch ordinance being around and giving a heads-up on the Lores.

 

[Venerable Ro]

Ah, waking up after a day's sleep to find no interest in one's plan and a huge slap fight over windigoes.

Nice.

 

[Alan975]

...Is there actually a consensus on how many of us want to reveal what? Launder this and launder that, but everyone seems to be on different tracks when it comes to what they want who to know.

I'd thought that the goal was to grow loyalty in LB, then dripp-feed them lore.
Was I wrong on this?
Should we still aim for obscurity as we rush up the stairs of the mansus? Is there enough time left in the quest for inter-department politics and subterfuge?

...I'd like to see the lores spread more, be that as royal decree or yet another cult- illuminati edition!!!

 

[spiderhellian]

...Is there actually a consensus on how many of us want to reveal what? Launder this and launder that, but everyone seems to be on different tracks when it comes to what they want who to know.

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Hahahaha no I do not think this voting indicates much consensus.

Which is fine! The point of voting is to establish a path forward, it's alright if it's contested getting there.

 

[Sveta08]

Hahahaha no I do not think this voting indicates much consensus

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What this vote reveals is people have a great many different focuses. And above all, most are trying to be cautious, but advance our position. There is just disagreement on priorities and how to go about it.

I still advocate for Wendigos warning, moth, and low level general information.

 

[Greymere]

[X] Plan: Reforging and Warning
-[X] Plant warning about Wendigos (Details about Wendigos and their jars, not summoning info)
-[X] Plant a basic treaties on the lores (Lore level 0)
-[X] Plant the details of the Forge's Redemption

[X] Plan Historical Precedent
-[X] A basic treatise on the Lores (Lore Level 0)
-[X] (WRITE-IN) Reveal the Lores as the ancestral magic of ponykind
-[X] (WRITE-IN) Reveal the one- and two-circle ritual configurations

[X] Plan Oh Shit They Can Summon Monsters
-[X] (WRITE-IN) Information about Windigos (Details about Windigos, their jars, and their nature as summonable entities - but not how to summon them)
-[X] (WRITE-IN) Information about Ash-Ghouls (Details about Ash-Ghouls, their fuel, and their nature as summonable entities - but not how to summon them)
-[X] A basic treatise on the lores (Lore Level 0)

[X] Plan Connected Secrets
-[X] Plant a basic treatise on the lores (Lore level 0)
-[X] (WRITE-IN) The connection between the Lore of Moth and the changelings' innate abilities and their former ability to Lie to the World
-[X] (WRITE-IN) Information about Windigos (Details about Windigos, their jars, and their nature as summonable entities - but not how to summon them)

 

[Shaper47]

Given the problems with too much false evidence being planted and the investigative skill of the Bureau we shouldn't go to far.

Two is probably safe and three is risky but possible. Any higher then that is kinda courting hubris in my view.

For a bunch of reasons including not wanting to spend up Eclipse/Daybreakers knowledge giving high level lore information such as greater lore knowledge then they have, two circle or three circle rituals. Is probably not wise for our goals.

The Bureau will take time even with our guidance to get the lores. For the goal of getting the Bureau lores we just need the introduction and them not to think it's planted. So we can't place to much evidence if we want the Bureau to get the lores.

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

-[] Plant the details of the Forge's Redemption

Their is literally no point in this anybody that makes into the Mansus automatically learns the forges Redemption. They cannot even understand it until they make it into the Mansus proper.

 

[Greymere]

-[] Plant the details of the Forge's Redemption

Their is literally no point in this anybody that makes into the Mansus automatically learns the forges Redemption. They cannot even understand it until they make it into the Mansus proper.

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That's not how the ritual circles work. As long as you see the base pattern and know the Lores, you can understand the rituals.

Unless you want to try and argue that Jade, who never set hoof beyond the Woods and yet both developed and is a frequent user of Reflection of the Tapestry, doesn't understand two-circle rituals?

 

[Venerable Ro]

Given the problems with too much false evidence being planted and the investigative skill of the Bureau we shouldn't go to far.

Two is probably safe and three is risky but possible. Any higher then that is kinda courting hubris in my view.

For a bunch of reasons including not wanting to spend up Eclipse/Daybreakers knowledge giving high level lore information such as greater lore knowledge then they have, two circle or three circle rituals. Is probably not wise for our goals.

The Bureau will take time even with our guidance to get the lores. For the goal of getting the Bureau lores we just need the introduction and them not to think it's planted. So we can't place to much evidence if we want the Bureau to get the lores.

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I just wanted to fake a set of whatever introductory materials Copper's cult might have produced, but apparently we're chasing rabbits instead.

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

That's not how the ritual circles work. As long as you see the base pattern and know the Lores, you can understand the rituals.

Unless you want to try and argue that Jade, who never set hoof beyond the Woods and yet both developed and is a frequent user of Reflection of the Tapestry, doesn't understand two-circle rituals?

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One of two things will happen if we give them the ritual. 1 they try it and it does nothing and is dismissed as hogwash, or 2 they try it fail because they lack lore knowledge and probably kill someone, label it dark magic. And we go back to being unable to use the ritual to heal the scars.

It is vastly better to let them discover the ritual by getting into the Manaus. Because that means they have the lore knowledge to function as support for rituals. Meaning we can get the boost from a lore trained people backing our rituals.

 

[Sveta08]

Ah, waking up after a day's sleep to find no interest in one's plan and a huge slap fight over windigoes.

Nice.

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Apologies.
Both of your presented plans include the cult focusing on Velvet for more than just her being the head of the Bureau. That feels like an unnecessary risk.

The Wendigos however, Baldomare spoke of being not present, but that she knew Copper had. And unless Baldomare is lying directly, then I consider that a dangerous problem that will crop up sooner rather than later.
Again, those urns cost bits to upkeep. A cult going to ground or scattered... Probably won't think and focus on that.

 

[Pittauro]

ok, picking from Graymere's post, let's see which plans I like...

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[x] Plan Basic Int Test
-[x] A very vague treatise about the Mansus, and the Lores. (This will have no inherent "Lore level", but attempt to point your investigation towards the existence of the Lores)
-[x] (WRITE-IN) The details of the Forge's Redemption

acceptable, though I worry that introducing ALL lores together with the Forge's Redemption would also quickly reveal all (except tapestry) other rituals. I suppose it's not THAT big of a deal? I'd rather avoid Celestia learning of PtN yet though.

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[x] Plan A Gentle Nudge
-[x] A very vague treatise about the Mansus, and the Lores. (This will have no inherent "Lore level", but attempt to point your investigation towards the existence of the Lores)
-[x] A detailed treatise about one of the Lores. One, or several of them. (KNOCK 1, MOTH 1)

it's fairly basic, but they're both pretty important lores for the Bureau. we do a lot of stealth work and breaking-and-entering...

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[x] A Foundation To Build On
-[x] A detailed treatise about one of the Lores. One, or several of them. (You will leave a basic compendium of the essential Lores, a sort of primer seemingly intended to instruct new inductees to the cult and help them identify their personal affinities)
-[x] Another pamphlet, detailing basic Lore-related hazards such as Fascination, again seemingly directed towards a prospective cultist making the jump from level 0 to level 1 in a prospective Lore.
-[x] Evidence that perpetrators planned not only to kill Velvet but also replace her (detailed study of her behavior, evidence of training in hoofwriting similar to hers and so on).

I actually really like THIS idea to deal with Velvet's manuscripts.

After all, she's above all suspicion, so if we find manuscripts with her hoofprints AFTER we already found evidence they planned to replace her and/or implicate her... well, then even if someone were to look at the Manuscripts it would be easy to dismiss any "no, look, they're really written by Velvet" with "it seems they made really good fakes then".

And warnings about Fascination and Dread make sense.

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[x] Plan Other Velvet
-[x] You planted a cache of false information, meant to throw your investigations off any trails they might pick up. (Attempt to make the investigator's job more difficult, on all fronts)
-[x] (WRITE-IN) Evidence that perpetrators planned not only to kill Velvet but also replace her (detailed study of her behavior, evidence of training in hoofwriting similar to hers and so on).

this is basically a "no lores for them, only less suspicion on Velvet", which fair enough.

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[x] Plan Historical Precedent
-[x] A basic treatise on the Lores (Lore Level 0)
-[x] (WRITE-IN) Reveal the Lores as the ancestral magic of ponykind
-[x] (WRITE-IN) Reveal the one- and two-circle ritual configurations

and, again, a foundation + historical background. And hey, there's probably SOME proof of "lore-related magic" in the royal archives, and the Bureau could cross-check. Things that previously didn't make sense, like spells and rituals that don't follow the modern "rules" of magic and were dismissed as fake or superstition could now gain context.

Who knows, maybe Celestia will remember things Starswhirl did that no other modern mage can do and connect the dots.

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A reminder for everyone:

EVERY ITEM ADDED TO THE REVEAL MAKES IT MORE LIKELY WE DO SOMETHING WRONG, AND EACH MANUSCRIPT COUNTS AS AN ITEM.

so, for an example, this plan

[] Plan: Loring up the Night lights.
-[] A detailed treatise about one of the Lores. One, or several of them. (You will leave pre-prepared copies of Lore manuscripts
-[] A detailed treatise about one of the Lores. One, or several of them. (Everything, the entire library and the kitchen sink)
-[] (WRITE IN) General warnnings about the dangers of The Lores and The Mansus (Worms in your Dreams, Wolves at your heels, etc...)
-[] (WRITE IN) A journal filled with vauge rambelings about the disaperance of Luna after "The attack" (Reveal Copper's attack against/ the possession of Luna).

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is adding... well, I'm not even counting them all, but definitely more than TEN different items, maybe even more than that depending on how you count the manuscripts.

we don't count the lores, we count THE BOOKS. each book is an item.

HERE'S OUR LIST

KNOCK
-Level 1 – "A handbook that tells the tale of a thief"
-Level 2 – "An absolutely boring encyclopedia about how the tunnels, on the mountain in which Canterlot is perched, were dug. Reading this will be a challenge…"
-Level 3 - "An encyclopedia about poisonous snakes, with several artful illustrations"

GRAIL
-Level 2 – "It's a book. About food. It has food on the cover, so that's what it is. If your daughter ever finds it, that's what you'll tell her. If your husband finds it, however…"
-Level 3 - "A novel telling the forbidden romance between a foreign spy and a soldier. The writing is not as spicy as the theme would suggest, but the details is goes into to describe the conflict they feel is intriguing."

SECRET HISTORIES
-Level 3 – "A curious scroll, a copy from the original of course, detailing the appearance of King Sombra, centuries ago."

FORGE
-Level 2 - "A book about ingenious farming equipment, and how they function". (EFFECT DOUBLED)
-Level 3 - "A real guide to beginner's level blacksmithing. The bookstore owner almost seemed excited in having this reach your hoofs via your servants."
-Level 3 - "The book is simply titled 'Chemistry', and your servants reluctantly admitted that was the only word they understood in it. Of course you know they were being dramatic, but that also means that the contents of the book must be way, way beyond what they teach at schools."

MOTH
-Level 1 - "A poetry book. Amateur work, really, but one of them talks about masks…".

WINTER
-Level 2 - "A book on the benefits of Meditation, and why you should try it".

EDGE
-Level 3 - "A posthumous, and rather contentious, biography of the legendary pegasus called Flash Magnus".

HEART
-Level 2 - "A novel about a mare who fell in love with a drummer, the romantic parts all written in rhyming poetry".
-Level 3 - "A study about yak culture. The part about their history and folklore is of little use. The chapters about their songs, however…".
-Level 2 - "An essay on how even the unlikeliest rumor might become the truth, if it is repeated with sufficient insistency. Written in the form of a manual." (MANIFEST, not a book that was read)

LANTERN
-Level 6 - "An ancient, and enormous, hardcover tome written in an unknown language. You are not even sure what its title is, if it even has one, but the symbol laid on its front was enough for you to understand what it is about. On its cover you can clearly see the icon of a Sun, Divided. Its elusive text filled with allegories about the past and about mirrors."

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THAT'S 16 BOOKS.

and as a note, plans to add forge 2 should keep in mind that "Forge 2" is actually THREE items, not 1.

@OurLadyOfWires can you confirm this? Is "Forge 2" treated as one item worth of complexity, or three? Better be sure about this.

[] How to build basic defenses.
-[] A detailed treatise about one of the Lores. One, or several of them. (FORGE: Level 2 )
[] Plan Let's waste their time
-[] You planted a cache of false information, meant to throw your investigations off any trails they might pick up. (Attempt to make the investigator's job more difficult, on all fronts)
-[] (WRITE-IN)You planted an encrypted treatise about Lores that are decodable but meant to delay/complicate their study (Grail: Level 1, Heart: Level 1 Moth: Level 1, Grail lvl 1 )

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on a different note, Greymere, is this one single plan, or two plans and you forgot to add an empty line of separation?

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ANOTHER NOTE: Ideally I think we want to keep to 2 or 3 pieces of evidence added. maybe 4, even if it makes me a bit uncomfortable, but beyond that it's likely too risky.

 

[Greymere]

on a different note, Greymere, is this one single plan, or two plans and you forgot to add an empty line of separation?

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Forgot to separate.

Also technically there's one more plan that I haven't added yet, since I made a variant of Sveta's plan which explicitly states the intent to draw a connection btwn changelings and Moth, instead of throwing a treatise at them and hope they connect the dots, since the stated reason was to anchor the Lore discovery to something known (i.e. changelings and their ability to shapeshift)

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

I really think people are not considering who is going to discover this, the best mortal detectives in the nation. Giving them the details The Forge's Redemption is a terrible idea.

Again these are the best detective in the nation they will have already discovered that Velvet suffers from an old terrible injury that permanently effected her, just from being around her for a week. They are going to notice if Velvet suddenly stops walking without her minor limp.

It one thing for Velvet the very rich, and very powerful noble mare, in one of the 6 highest seats of office in the nation to be able to heal her old injuries using her new connections and income, using some rare and exotic method Velvet would have access to.

It is another thing entirely Velvet, to be walking normally after the Bureau just discovered a supposed ritual that heals old scars, that will raise massive red flags that Velvet use the ritual.

 

[Greymere]

Again these are the best detective in the nation they will have already discovered that Velvet suffers an old terrible injury that permanently effected her, just from being around her for a week. They are going to notice if Velvet suddenly stops walking without her minor limp.

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Right. Because clearly, no one ever has had a slight limp for any other reason besides a crippling, life-altering injury. Sprains? General aches and pains from workaholic tendencies? Just a chronically achey ankle? What are those?

 

[Venerable Ro]

Also technically there's one more plan that I haven't added yet, since I made a variant of Sveta's plan which explicitly states the intent to draw a connection btwn changelings and Moth, instead of throwing a treatise at them and hope they connect the dots, since the stated reason was to anchor the Lore discovery to something known (i.e. changelings and their ability to shapeshift)

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I do note that as the Commissioner we're free to direct conclusions (within reason) once we're presented with our investigation's findings. Thus if and when we get to the point of leafing through vague documentation on strange magics relating to identity and going unnoticed Velvet herself can say "Hmm, this sounds like changelings".

That's why I wanted to just do the simple primer, no conclusions, just information, so that we have more room to gauge and direct our Bureau's reaction.

Apologies.
Both of your presented plans include the cult focusing on Velvet for more than just her being the head of the Bureau. That feels like an unnecessary risk.

The Wendigos however, Baldomare spoke of being not present, but that she knew Copper had. And unless Baldomare is lying directly, then I consider that a dangerous problem that will crop up sooner rather than later.
Again, those urns cost bits to upkeep. A cult going to ground or scattered... Probably won't think and focus on that.

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The evidence of preparing to replace Velvet connects to the possibility of the manuscripts, and also to the seemingly random attack on Velvet's home. Since it seems we're definitely not going to try to link the changelings directly to Copper's cult, a good old fashioned abduction scheme would fit well enough.

As to the windigo thing, I'd be happy enough to throw in a safety manual for windigo jars; "something something volatile uncontrollable construct, something something to be kept under carefully prescribed conditions, something something ancient terror weapon"?

 

[Lorrie]

[X] Plan Historical Precedent

[X] Plan Connected Secrets

 

[Greymere]

I do note that as the Commissioner we're free to direct conclusions (within reason) once we're presented with our investigation's findings. Thus if and when we get to the point of leafing through vague documentation on strange magics relating to identity and going unnoticed Velvet herself can say "Hmm, this sounds like changelings".

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On one hand, yes. On the other hand, we need our detectives to take it seriously enough for it to actually make it to our desk to give directions about it, or Bird wouldn't feel the need to point out that our planted evidence being disregarded and dismissed as crazy-talk is a risk. And something that explicitly makes a connection with an ongoing priority seems more likely to be taken seriously, or at least given a second look.

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

Right. Because clearly, no one ever has had a slight limp for any other reason besides a crippling, life-altering injury. Sprains? General aches and pains from workaholic tendencies? Just a chronically achey ankle? What are those?

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These are the ponies that not only make their living by investigating thing, and noticing the minor clues that revel the truth, but are the ponies that stand above the rest in skill and ablity. They will have noticed Velvet's limb basically upon first meeting her, because that something obvious they are trained to notice. They will have noticed it does not go away, or stops being their.

And frankly if the detectives where the type not to double check such a simple and clear detail like their department head having a limp, something that a changeling infiltrator might miss because they don't know Velvet has a limp they would not be working at the Bureau.

If the detectives have not already done an investigation into important life details, of their boss when they know they are going up agisnt shapeshifters, and done something as minor as pulled the medical records on how Velvet got her injury, then Velvet should fire them and hire actually competent people.

 

[Venerable Ro]

On one hand, yes. On the other hand, we need our detectives to take it seriously enough for it to actually make it to our desk to give directions about it, or Bird wouldn't feel the need to point out that our planted evidence being disregarded and dismissed as crazy-talk is a risk.

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Exactly, so we give them something basic and factual, something designed (seemingly) for a complete neophyte to poke at like the Lore equivalent of little Timmy's first home chemistry set. Not all this faffing about with rituals and Worms and 12-manuscript-long shopping lists of "here's what we want to happen dictated in explicit detail".

 

[Greymere]

Exactly, so we give them something basic and factual, something designed (seemingly) for a complete neophyte to poke at like the Lore equivalent of little Timmy's first home chemistry set. Not all this faffing about with rituals and Worms and 12-manuscript-long shopping lists of "here's what we want to happen dictated in explicit detail".

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Then what in the world are you even complaining about? Both versions of the plan with changeling stuff in it has the Lore-for-dummies primer on top of the changeling stuff. It is, in fact, kind of necessary for the changeling-Moth connection to even be made in the first place.

 

[Pittauro]

These are the ponies that not only make their living by investigating thing, and noticing the minor clues that revel the truth, but are the ponies that stand above the rest in skill and ablity. They will have noticed Velvet's limb basically upon first meeting her, because that something obvious they are trained to notice. They will have noticed it does not go away, or stops being their.

And frankly if the detectives where the type not to double check such a simple and clear detail like their department head having a limp, something that a changeling infiltrator might miss because they don't know Velvet has a limp they would not be working at the Bureau.

If the detectives have not already done an investigation into important life details, of their boss when they know they are going up agisnt shapeshifters, and done something as minor as pulled the medical records on how Velvet got her injury, then Velvet should fire them and hire actually competent people.

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reminder: Velvet keeps dresses all the time EXACTLY to hide the scar, AND she has been Moth 4 since she joined the Bureau. So she's VERY GOOD at hiding her physical wound.

It's also something she has ALWAYS kept under wraps for the most part, due to her trauma.

So no, I don't think they noticed. It took us EXPLICITLY DECIDING TO SHOW CADANCE for HER to notice.

 

[Venerable Ro]

Then what in the world are you even complaining about? Both versions of the plan with changeling stuff in it has the Lore-for-dummies primer on top of the changeling stuff. It is, in fact, kind of necessary for the changeling-Moth connection to even be made in the first place.

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Hold on, let's step back real quick.

First of all, in the context of this specific vote, I really don't care about Changelings, since our Bureau has demonstrated the ability to figure them out without relying on the Lores. I only brought them up in relation to the "plant the idea that Velvet was the target of an abduction scheme" idea.

Secondly I'm trying to plant introductory materials for their own sake, not as a step one in a scheme to draw a specific conclusion. Aside, of course, from the basic scheme to introduce the Lores at all.

Finally, I'm griping because it's a hobby and because everyone has created their own minutely different plan to either achieve the same thing or pursue a long-term goal right zogging now.

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

reminder: Velvet keeps dresses all the time EXACTLY to hide the scar, AND she has been Moth 4 since she joined the Bureau. So she's VERY GOOD at hiding her physical wound.

It's also something she has ALWAYS kept under wraps for the most part, due to her trauma.

So no, I don't think they noticed. It took us EXPLICITLY DECIDING TO SHOW CADANCE for HER to notice.

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Cadance is a trained ruler, not a trained detective, they are entirety different skill sets. And it does not matter how good Velvet is she will have a bad day, while the Bureau ponies are throwing 50+ rolls at Velvet.