Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

[des-pair-2]

[] Plan: Primer and Warning
-[] You decided to start laundering some Lore-knowledge... (Lores will be picked at Velvet's discretion)
--[] [LORE-ZERO] You only planted some very vague, but educative, information about the Lores. (No specific Lores shared, counts as "one" evidence)
-[] [WINDIGOS] You made it convincing. You made it look secret. You even simulated a burn mark, to pretend they tried to destroy this "document". But in the end, you warned them about the ticking bombs. (Share knowledge about the sealed Windigo's existence. Counts as "one" evidence)

Let's not get too ambitious. Warn them about Windigos, get them a beachhead into Lores and nothing else. Risking getting found out just to give them everything on silver platter is not worth the stress. Hopefully, we find the Outsider, do the potential expedition, and break the Lock before the Bureau, Celestia or Windy ever become relevant.

 

[spiderhellian]

I'm partial to LORE-ONE. I'd like the Bureau to be more effective, especially if we seek to send them up against Lore users soon. And I really think the risk is not that high.

 

[des-pair-2]

I want others to remember: we are not trying to make just one stealth check, but two. The first is them finding our lead, the second is figuring out the information was there placed after the fact.

Keep that in mind.

 

[Shaper47]

Not a fan of the Windigos, their less of a present danger then lacking knowledge of the worms.

Besides it's not like their going to be a real threat.

Who the heck besides us is going to summon them?

It's not like Windy has any knock or edge.

The Winter Name might be able to but we're probably going to be dealing with her fast.

 

[spiderhellian]

present danger then lacking knowledge of the worms

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Leaving aside that I do think this piece of info is hard to believe…

What does the Lunar Bureau even do with this information?

You're not going to send low lore ponies up against the Worms. And they won't even get there for a while!

The Worms are the over-arching threat to this story, for sure. But I don't think they're a present threat exactly, actively posing immediate dangers, and I don't think they're a threat the Bureau is geared to tackle any time soon.

 

[des-pair-2]

Not a fan of the Windigos, their less of a present danger then lacking knowledge of the worms.

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What? Have I misread?

"Other than that," Baldomare continues, "I couldn't find any of her other pet monsters. I am pretty sure she still has at least three windigoes on her hoofs. But I have no idea if they are inside this central building, or if she has them stashed somewhere else."

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Huh, I didn't misread.

Besides it's not like their going to be a real threat.

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Really?

Goes to check Shining "Heroic Soldier" Armor's stats.
Yeah, that still reads "+25" for personal combat.
Goes to check "end-of-ponykind" Windigos stats.
Mhm, mhm. They still roll with a +55 against ponies.
Checks if anything "bad" would happen, in particular, if Windigos happen to be working together.
Well, to be fair, thats only BAD if you are not a Wolf worshipper. But lets be honest, who isnt?



Jokes aside. Your math isn't mathing chief

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I consider this as divine sign they are a threat.

Granted, they could be in the Mareinette's loot cart, but that still leaves us with 3 Windigos that suck up 60 bits per turn. Either way, I doubt it is worth the risk of them not being at our place and having the Bureau unprepared.

As spiderhellian said, what could they even do with information on Worms? Nothing right now or in foreseeable future. I wouldn't worry Bureau about them instead of Windigos.

 

[Shaper47]

Leaving aside that I do think this piece of info is hard to believe…

What does the Lunar Bureau even do with this information?

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Not go to the dreamlands.

You're not going to send low lore ponies up against the Worms. And they won't even get there for a while!

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If we don't want ponies going up against the Worms we have to warn them beforehand.

That's the entire point.

I consider this as divine sign they are a threat.

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Which ignores the question of who is going to be summoning these Windigos?

 

[des-pair-2]

Which ignores the question of who is going to be summoning these Windigos?

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If you want to keep them sealed, you have to pay 20 bits of maintainace every turn. Who is paying it right now? Certainly not Copper, that's for sure.

Edit: They are already summoned. That's why you have to maintain them. That's why Baldomare mentioned they are stashed somewhere.

 

[Zxzx24]

Smoking gun. And worms I think.

When telling a lie. It is important that one create not just disparate pieces of snippets of facts. But come up with a story.

(Of course dice rolls are also very important)

But forges redemption...

 

[Venerable Ro]

Edit: They are already summoned. That's why you have to maintain them. That's why Baldomare mentioned they are stashed somewhere.

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We get ahold of them and have Biedde kill them. He's killed one already, he can deal with a few more, they might even qualify as a Monster for his hunting expedition.

 

[Greymere]

Okay so I like just woke up, so brain not braining real good just yet. But from the new options, my gut response is either Lore Zero/Windigos/Smoking Gun or Lore One/Forge's Redemption.

First option firmly establishes the cult as a serious threat and very relevant to the Bureau's mission beyond just being a threat to our life. Plus,"we stopped working on the changeling threat to pursue the people that attacked Luna" is probably going to be more acceptable for Celestia to hear than the alternative.

Second option focuses on introducing the Bureau to the Lores via something constructive and useful.

 

[Shaper47]

If you want to keep them sealed, you have to pay 20 bits of maintainace every turn. Who is paying it right now? Certainly not Copper, that's for sure.

Edit: They are already summoned. That's why you have to maintain them. That's why Baldomare mentioned they are stashed somewhere.

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That's an ineffective argument.

Either we have the Windigos via Mareinette in which case they are not a problem.

The leftovers Copper cultists have the Windigos in which case they are not a problem given that they can either maintain the binding or just dismiss the summon.

Or the Bureau get ahold of a Windigo jar in which case it doesn't matter if their warned or not. Because they (including Eclipse here) do not have the lore knowledge required to maintain the binding. Given whose in charge of the Bureau, Velvet will probably intervene and pull something off.

If the cultist somehow managed to not have Mareinette loot their Windigos and if they for some reason decided to pull a Leroy Jenkins an set them loose. The warning would still be useless.


The cultists aren't going to be throwing Windigos everywhere unless something serious goes wrong.

The warning for Windigos is for future targets. Future cults, Windy and the Winter Name.

Which is why it's not useful. Because we can hit those targets better and before the Bureau and have good reason (loot) to do so.

 

[des-pair-2]

The leftovers Copper cultists have the Windigos in which case they are not a problem given that they can either maintain the binding or just dismiss the summon.

Or the Bureau get ahold of a Windigo jar in which case it doesn't matter if their warned or not. Because they (including Eclipse here) do not have the lore knowledge required to maintain the binding. Given whose in charge of the Bureau, Velvet will probably intervene and pull something off.

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You assume they have bits to maintain the binding and that they will not panic and release them after seeing the Bureau. That they have a unified leadership that will not have infighting amongst themselves. That not maintaining them means they will be unsummoned and that we can pull something off without suspicion. And of course, that the seals after the explosion are undamaged.

Yes, those are assumptions too, but I believe it is better to tell them and be ready than not tell them and have slaughter happen. Even a single Windigo is a city-scale threat, much less three.

Also, I like to think that is something Velvet would do to prevent a potencial tragedy. To not do it and have something happen would be bad for her psyche. We don't need to have her suffer mental breakdown guilt over something so preventable.

Edit: fixed what I meant

 

[Venerable Ro]

Personally I'm not in favor of windigoes or a smoking gun, both options seem very likely to create objectives for our Bureau that we either don't want to achieve or genuinely cannot achieve.

The Bureau actually securing a windigo jar for example, where would we actually go from there? There it is, horrible gribbly murder in a box, and now the murdery box is in our Bureau, then what would we do with it?

Ditto the smoking gun, telling Sun Pony we have a lead on the ones who took away her sister will lead to her very politely charging us with bringing her a head on a spike.

Or perhaps a whole pony and a spike so she can do it herself.

I don't want to be the one disappointing the sun pony with a lack of spikes and heads to put on them...

 

[Greymere]

The Bureau actually securing a windigo jar for example, where would we actually go from there? There it is, horrible gribbly murder in a box, and now the murdery box is in our Bureau, then what would we do with it?

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Take the murdery box very, very far away from any population centers so that when it inevitably 'detonates' a bunch of ponies don't get slaughtered?

Ditto the smoking gun, telling Sun Pony we have a lead on the ones who took away her sister will lead to her very politely charging us with bringing her a head on a spike.

Or perhaps a whole pony and a spike so she can do it herself.

I don't want to be the one disappointing the sun pony with a lack of spikes and heads to put on them...

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There's plenty of heads left to be spiked, though? We want to round up the remnants of the cult anyway, and them being directly relevant to our mission statement is a great explanation to the angry sun horse as to why we're not working on the thing she told us to work on (changelings).

Edit: Also it provides a narrative for why Velvet was attacked in the first place, if we care about that.

 

[des-pair-2]

I don't want to be the one disappointing the sun pony with a lack of spikes and heads to put on them...

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Or, hear me out here, we secure the murder in a box and tell the Sun pony about it. Maybe she will work out some of that anger she feels.

 

[Steady Gaze]

-[] [MOTH-ANONYMOUS] You planted a cold gun. It's up to them to connect the dots. (Share "The Path Through Nightmares". Counts as "one" evidence)

-[] [MOTH-ADMITTING] You planted the smoking gun, that was used to strike Princess Luna. (Share "The Path Through NIghtmares", AND a claim it was used against Luna. Counts as "one" evidence)

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Can someone fill me in on the arguments for the "cold" or "smoking gun" options, if any were made previously? I know we've been calling it a "doom clock" but how is it that Celestia or Eclipse would make the connection that it was the Lores or Path Through Nightmares that hurt Luna?

I guess the main argument for it is that we want the Bureau to conclude that yes, Cooper's cult did it, all the blame will fall on her now that she's conveniently dead and silent about her motives, and Celestia will be pleased that we got results. This is given that we are very confident in our ability to hide our involvement.

 

[Shaper47]

We want to round up the remnants of the cult anyway,

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Kinda, maybe?

To be honest I don't think we really care about low level cultists. Not worth the trouble especially with Ash salking them.

So we only really care about the Winter Name and Windy. Which is probably something we should handle by ourselves not the Bureau. If only because of the loot.

Not really seeing much of a reason to be going after lore knowledge in the general population.

 

[Greymere]

@OurLadyOfWires is there a risk that our detectives could find our incriminating manuscripts before we have a chance to follow up next turn, and if so, could we have an option to try and preemptively discredit it?

 

[Shaper47]

and that they will not panic and release them after seeing the Bureau.

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That's not something the warnings will effect.

The timeline doesn't work out, the Bureau can't get the planted evidence and act on it straight away.

And if it does the warnings are meaningless anyways.

That not maintaining them means they will be unsummoned

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If the wards on the jars are not maintained the summoners either have to use the Windigos for a violent action or desummon them.

If they attack the warnings are useless because the Bureau wouldn't have had enough time to get the information, and would then have the information for the future anyways.

If they attack... if.

and that we can pull something off without suspicion

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Narratively it's probably something like Velvet riding in the carriage taking them back to the Bureau and dropping them out to fall on the Palace right in front of Celestia's front door.

Mechanically probably Moth, Knock and Forge roll.

 

[des-pair-2]

That's not something the warnings will effect.

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You are right. But mechanically I assume chasing the remmants costs an action, so they are only mildly panicing now. That particular scenario would likely happen if we spent it doing so.

As for other scenarios, I doubt Bird would give the option to warn them if it would not help aganist Wendigos. Remember, no matter what, no option is a trap option.

the wards on the jars are not maintained the summoners either have to use the Windigos for a violent action or desummon them.

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And where are the summoners? What happens to the jars if they are abandoned? Will they be unsummoned or will they break free? I think the latter is more likely given they are already summoned. They are in a jar here in Wake, not somewhere in Mansus.

 

[Shaper47]

You are right. But mechanically I assume chasing the remmants costs an action, so they are only mildly panicing now. That particular scenario would likely happen if we spent it doing so.

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Do we want to chase the remnants?

They're only low level cultists and we have Changelings who we're actually supposed to be focusing on.

There's also Fair Trial to think of.

As for other scenarios, I doubt Bird would give the option to warn them if it would not help aganist Wendigos. Remember, no matter what, no option is a trap option.

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It seems more for future scenarios. For if we want to use the Bureau against the Winter Name or Windy.

But like, do we want to use the Bureau for that?

Because we'd miss out on the loot and could do it ourselves pretty easily.

And where are the summoners? What happens to the jars if they are abandoned? Will they be unsummoned or will they break free? I think the latter is more likely given they are already summoned. They are in a jar here in Wake, not somewhere in Mansus.

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The bindings mean that the summoners will feel when the jars fail. Thus the summoners can pull on the bindings to banish the Windigos or give them the orders to attack.

It's the summoners choice.

 

[AuthorTransient]

So we warn about the gribblies and we warn about the worms, then next turn we scry for the former and send Biedde after them - presumably Neighna would be stored in the same place. There's also Windy we have to worry about. Bunch of time bombs popping up like whack-a-mole.

If Filthy Rich becomes a Close Friend I would argue to just straight up Leash and Moth Sacrament next turn and wow, we are juggling and chasing so many items.

The bindings mean that the summoners will feel when the jars fail. Thus the summoners can pull on the bindings to banish the Windigos or give them the orders to attack.

It's the summoners choice.

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Augh, what are the chances that the summoner is Windy and he's planning to use them (and Neighna) to do some kind of Wolf-thing ;-;

After all, Wolf does have Winter

EDIT 1: So if there's a plan, I would vote for basic Lore treatise, MurderJar warning, WormCorruption warning

 

[des-pair-2]

Do we want to chase the remnants?

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Probably not. But that is decision for later.

It seems more for future scenarios. For if we want to use the Bureau against the Winter Name or Windy.

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To me, it seems like this will be relevant soon. You know, because Windigos will break out and try to kill uncountable number of ponies.

But I know we simply have an irreconcilable difference in opinion simply because you don't consider them a significant threat and I do.

The bindings mean that the summoners will feel when the jars fail. Thus the summoners can pull on the bindings to banish the Windigos or give them the orders to attack.

It's the summoners choice.

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Exactly. Assuming that they can do it, the choice is unsummon the Windigo or release them and slow down the Bureau for no cost.

 

[Shaper47]

Augh, what are the chances that the summoner is Windy and he's planning to use them (and Neighna) to do some kind of Wolf-thing ;-;

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Low because we split the cult up at the trigger event.

So Copper and Windy didn't team up.

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

The principle concern I have in regards to jarred Windigos is the chance that the Bureau comes across them during their sweep of the city and cracks them open to see what's inside. That would result in a lot of carnage.

And in regards to the jars being caught in the building's collapse: the building didn't collapse. Luna vaporised the upper floors, but those lower than that still stand. We know this because she ran through said portion of the building with the rest of the fleeing cultists. If it was collapsing that would not have been the case, mortals can't outrun a collapsing skyscraper from inside.

In regards to Mareinette possibly looting Windigo Jars because she looted absolutely everything: she did not loot absolutely everything. She has one cartful of the Cult's "precious items." I will grant that she can probably haul a pretty big cart, but I don't think a Grail Cult would consider Windigos "precious" to any degree, nor would they call them "item"s. While the cart will undoubtedly hold quite the array of Artifacts, it won't be holding the jars.

As for jar bindings expiring and the Windigo going poof: summon timers do not decrease while jarred. When that vessel crumbles you have a free and clear windigo ready to enact as much violence as it wishes while it moseys back to its summoner, because summons have agency and free will beyond their summoner. This isn't a mindless risen we are talking about here, these things have a head full of hate and a default setting of murder.

Finally, knowing about the jars will prevent the bureau from thinking that someone is bluffing when they say they'll pop open a ball of murder if pressed, leading to good old high-stakes police negotiation scenes, which are fun.

 

[Shaper47]

To me, it seems like this will be relevant soon. You know, because Windigos will break out and try to kill uncountable number of ponies.

But I know we simply have an irreconcilable difference in opinion simply because you don't consider them a significant threat and I do.

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Exactly. Assuming that they can do it, the choice is unsummon the Windigo or release them and slow down the Bureau for no cost.

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The principle concern I have in regards to jarred Windigos is the chance that the Bureau comes across them during their sweep of the city and cracks them open to see what's inside. That would result in a lot of carnage.

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The issue with this is that the planted evidence of the Windigos as a warning won't do anything as soon as you think it will.

The evidence needs to be found, then it goes back to the headquarters, then somepony has to read it, then somepony has to examine it to make sure it's not totally fake and then a report needs to be made. All the while the Bureau's expedition is ongoing.

By the time the Bureau understands the Windigo information the raids will be over and done with.

It won't change anything, time just doesn't work like that.

It's like Velvet using an artifact or reading a book she found while an expedition she's on isn't finished.

 

[AuthorTransient]

As for jar bindings expiring and the Windigo going poof: summon timers do not decrease while jarred. When that vessel crumbles you have a free and clear windigo ready to enact as much violence as it wishes while it moseys back to its summoner, because summons have agency and free will beyond their summoner. This isn't a mindless risen we are talking about here, these things have a head full of hate and a default setting of murder.

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And we can't assume that their summoners will act rationally to dismiss them. It's far more likely that they will just be unleashed like a localised snow storm murder blender somewhere with a horrific death toll.

By the time the Bureau understands the Windigo information the raids will be over and done with.

It won't change anything, time just doesn't work like that.

It's like Velvet using an artifact or reading a book she found while an expedition she's on isn't finished.

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I'm not willing to bet Beyond Reproach's or Shining Armor's lives on this interpretation.

 

[des-pair-2]

Snip

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Okay, I see your point now, but consider this: Velvet will be healthy next turn. She can arrive there, skip all of that and give orders on the spot. That makes the warning useful because we can act on it.

 

[Venerable Ro]

Take the murdery box very, very far away from any population centers so that when it inevitably 'detonates' a bunch of ponies don't get slaughtered?

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Or, hear me out, we scry the things and then have Biedde go "defuse" the windigoes. Or perhaps we acquire them and then send him out into the wilderness with a cart of windigo jars.

There's plenty of heads left to be spiked, though? We want to round up the remnants of the cult anyway, and them being directly relevant to our mission statement is a great explanation to the angry sun horse as to why we're not working on the thing she told us to work on (changelings).

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Eh, we killed Copper just now, and Windy is Harmony-knows-where, there's every chance that we either won't want to implicate him or he's already done something permanent to himself.

Other than that there's just scraggly Know-nothing cultists, who aren't much use for prosecution. Especially considering the deal with Fair Trial and the fact that she'll absolutely push back against some kind of cultist pogrom. It is after all, not just her job but her literal name to do so.

@OurLadyOfWires is there a risk that our detectives could find our incriminating manuscripts before we have a chance to follow up next turn, and if so, could we have an option to try and preemptively discredit it?

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Sure now people- No, never mind, I think you voted for that plan of mine. No complaining here.

The evidence needs to be found, then it goes back to the headquarters, then somepony has to read it, then somepony has to examine it to make sure it's not totally fake and then a report needs to be made. All the while the Bureau's expedition is ongoing.

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Indeed, we saw how our mail system works during that one section where we saw the reactions to our Edge Influence. We would have to wait for the information to be found, assessed, and then, hopefully, directed to us so we could make a decision.

Maybe it'd be sent to Shining instead and he decides that it can wait to be presented with the rest of the report on the "Manehatten Blast" or whatever they're calling it.