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Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

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Greymere said:
The problem is that Velvet's AP is likely to be much more valuable than DoA's next turn. Just off the top of my head, we're likely to want to do some combination of the following: DoA's Sacrament (will probably require multiple AP), Forge's Redemption, initiating Cadance/Shining into the Lores, leveling up Selene, one or more Fleeting Opportunities regarding either the aftermath of Velvet's near-death experience or the results of the investigation. Sure, there might be room for a study action, but even then I think it would be better off being used to study the Moth book instead of the Knock book, seeing as we have a guaranteed source of a Knock scrap currently summoned but the only guaranteed source of Moth scraps is currently a pile of Ash.
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Yeah that's fair. We'll see how things work out — might be feasible if we do wind up with 3 cover your bases.
 
spiderhellian said:
Huh, that's a thought. It basically trades a Velvet action for an Axe action, and we get extra stuff out of the Velvet action. 64% to do the book in one, basically guaranteed in two.

And then after we can make progress on the Moth book (20% to do in one, okay to not because it probably has risk of Fascination), grab the Manehattan expedition book, or study the Lantern artefact if we did it in one.
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it's not sure we're doing Moth Sacrament next turn.

If we are, we COULD try to do Knock->Moth->Manehattan book. We could keep Axe Knock Lesson as a conditional if studying fails, especially if we study Knock AFTER the other two books.

We probably have enough time to get another lvl5 or 6 book for Baldomare later... though Ideally I would have preferred to keep one of the two for her, just in case.

Greymere said:
The problem is that Velvet's AP is likely to be much more valuable than DoA's next turn. Just off the top of my head, we're likely to want to do some combination of the following: DoA's Sacrament (will probably require multiple AP), Forge's Redemption, initiating Cadance/Shining into the Lores, leveling up Selene, one or more Fleeting Opportunities regarding either the aftermath of Velvet's near-death experience or the results of the investigation. Sure, there might be room for a study action, but even then I think it would be better off being used to study the Moth book instead of the Knock book, seeing as we have a guaranteed source of a Knock scrap currently summoned but the only guaranteed source of Moth scraps is currently a pile of Ash.
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thing is, more than the Knock or Moth Book I'm interested in the Manehattan one. It's likely to unlock a short or medium expedition we could send Names in, and I'd love to continue doing expeditions each turn, they're so profitable!
 
Given we will likely have two spare actions next turn, I would like to spend at least one of them on our SH Sacrament. Not only will we have a decent chance of healing our scar within that turn, but it will also get us closer to what may be a pretty useful Sacrament.
 
Pittauro said:
thing is, more than the Knock or Moth Book I'm interested in the Manehattan one. It's likely to unlock a short or medium expedition we could send Names in, and I'd love to continue doing expeditions each turn, they're so profitable!
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If that's the case then it makes even less sense to go for the Knock book over DoA's lesson. Manehattan book + Lantern artifact would get us both an expedition site(s) as well as another reliable scryer who isn't Jade (so she can focus on actual Jade-specific things + she can't use our current two-circle site). Who could be used to scry, say, more expedition sites or scout existing ones.
 
Limabot said:
Given we will likely have two spare actions next turn, I would like to spend at least one of them on our SH Sacrament. Not only will we have a decent chance of healing our scar within that turn, but it will also get us closer to what may be a pretty useful Sacrament.
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I think we'll have 3.

And I'd really like to do something at least somewhat conditional.

1) We do a Knock sacrament action.
2) We then decide if we should do another one, now that we have some semblance of understanding what it entails. Eg if there's a lore bonus that would be quite helpful, if it seems feasible to complete this turn.
3) If we still have the SH reroll, we do a SH sacrament action.

I know we tend not to do conditional plans. But also, given the week-by-week structure of the quest nowadays, I think it's somewhat easier to do midturn votes of this sort?

On the other hand I can see it slowing things down further, if Bird could write a two-knock sacrament action and now just has to write half of one and then wait for a decision.

I guess we'll see.
 
Greymere said:
If that's the case then it makes even less sense to go for the Knock book over DoA's lesson. Manehattan book + Lantern artifact would get us both an expedition site(s) as well as another reliable scryer who isn't Jade (so she can focus on actual Jade-specific things + she can't use our current two-circle site). Who could be used to scry, say, more expedition sites or scout existing ones.
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That's inefficient, I'd rather do 3 books and/or 2 artifacts, not mix and match.

Especially considering we DO have TWO lvl 4 artifacts ready to be studied.

spiderhellian said:
1) We do a Knock sacrament action.
2) We then decide if we should do another one, now that we have some semblance of understanding what it entails. Eg if there's a lore bonus that would be quite helpful, if it seems feasible to complete this turn.
3) If we still have the SH reroll, we do a SH sacrament action.
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the second point seems too much caution, and with Axe expiring next turn I'd rather just do it all at once unless we get wounded... in which case we always got a chance to give up, like in the Ruined Church.

We're also likely healing ourselves BEFORE the expedition, so we'll have full 3 health for once.

I'd just go

1)Axe Sacrament until too dangerous or completed
2)If still SH Reroll available, do SH Sacrament
3)List of lower priority actions we might do if we finish Knock Sacrament earlier and/or give up SH Sacrament (Study Artifacts, Socials, whatever)
 
Pittauro said:
Axe expiring next turn I'd rather just do it all at once
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Passing up an action that has our best shot at the SH sacrament (influence, reroll) feels hard.

I really don't want to lose the snake again, but… it is one turn and then one AP that's free/near guaranteed with two WKs (which we don't have tons of other use for… Neighnea permitting).

Not sure though, I really don't want DoA to be alone again :(
 
Shaper47 said:
It doesn't work like that.

Going far enough in the lores to outshine the Eclipse is not something we can do as it gives Celestia lantern to see us with.

And even if we did Eclipse would still be in charge of special lore area's.

It's their purview not ours.

Do you really think for example that the Eclipse could take over investigating Changelings? No, because that's the Luns Bureau purview.

Velvet has a job and she is busy doing that job. The Luna Bureau has a job and they are busy doing that job.

Why in the world would Celestia add another full time job when she already has the Eclipse?

I'm not seeing your logic here?
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My logic is that compartmentalization is a sword that cuts both ways. Velvet Covers, as I've said many times, knows nothing of Eclipse's role or activities beyond their supply of the definitively useless Candle Dust. As far as Velvet Covers knows Equestria has no organization dedicated to the Lores and the Mansus. At this point in time Celestia is in reclusion and we have been reporting to Cadance, insofar as we report to anyone really, Velvet Covers has no reason to share knowledge of the Lores with anyone outside of the Bureau at this time.

Eclipse is in its own little black box, we're in ours, and if we both happened to be pursuing the same research, well that would be just terrible.

What I've been saying this whole time is that it's better to ask forgiveness than permission, especially since we can just say we asked Cadance and she approved it. We don't have to rope Eclipse in on anything, anymore than they rope us in, and investigating unknown/unseen enemies is very much our purview. Therefore we just go for it, and if/when it gets noticed we apply a princess-backed "well you never asked." At which point in time we will have a comprehensive understanding of the entire spectrum of Lores, along with various artifacts, rituals, reagents, and maps of the lower Mansus, all of which would add up to a picture of organizational competence. And before you ask, we would not be able to simply chuck it all over to Eclipse because we'd make the very sensible argument that our achievements are the work of the dedicated ponies of the Lunar Bureau, striving to uphold the ideals of Princess Luna as espoused in our founding.

I'll admit, I wouldn't be pushing this so hard if we didn't just get a chance at a huge loyalty boost, but since we have it we can afford more audacity. Luna's getting restive/curious about what the Lores actually are, I'd say we explain it to her along with Cadance and Shining, then we use their endorsement along with this approval boost to start bringing our top ponies on board our "conspiracy". I'd honestly love to send ourselves along to Tall Tale after that discussion and apply the Lores a bit more visibly during the expedition to prove our point. Any loot would be a tidy little nest egg to get the Bureau started and as the Commissioner we'd have access to any and all books etcetera. Y'know, if we were inclined to study summat...


Pittauro said:
Old Cult was NOT capable of doing that. Jade is not capable of doing that.

If we could have the Bureau eventually do that, then the obvious question is why can't Jade or Baldomare?
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You tell me, why can't they do that? Are we meant to believe that those artifacts we looted from Copper's cult were just pretty decorations that she had no idea how to use? Mechanically restricting the study of artifacts to Velvet alone has resulted in a big pile of unstudied artifacts.
 
spiderhellian said:
Passing up an action that has our best shot at the SH sacrament (influence, reroll) feels hard.

I really don't want to lose the snake again, but… it is one turn and then one AP that's free/near guaranteed with two WKs (which we don't have tons of other use for… Neighnea permitting).

Not sure though, I really don't want DoA to be alone again :(
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I for one have no intention of playing yo-yo with Axe, especially with Silky feeling so fraught at the moment. The last thing our daughter needs right now is her sister up and vanishing on her, even if it would be temporary. We do one thing at a time, for once, we confirm Axe, then we figure out if we're going to keep putzing around with that SH sacrament.
 
Venerable Ro said:
At which point in time we will have a comprehensive understanding of the entire spectrum of Lores, along with various artifacts, rituals, reagents, and maps of the lower Mansus, all of which would add up to a picture of organizational competence.
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Which is a massive issue due to Celestia and Eclipse gaining lore knowledge that we gave the Bureau being used to reveal us resulting in death rays. So it's a non starter.

Venerable Ro said:
And before you ask, we would not be able to simply chuck it all over to Eclipse because we'd make the very sensible argument that our achievements are the work of the dedicated ponies of the Lunar Bureau, striving to uphold the ideals of Princess Luna as espoused in our founding.
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Authority goes Princess Luna who is in hiding and thus doesn't count officially then Princess Celestia.

Celestia is our boss is has the Authority to demand the knowledge be handed over the the trusted ponies she's already hoof picked to study this.

And yes she absolutely will.


Venerable Ro said:
and investigating unknown/unseen enemies is very much our purview.
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Even on the off chance your right and ignoring the all the issues this would not grant us access to Discord.

It's safely imprisoned in Celestia's view and not unknown at all.
 
Venerable Ro said:
You tell me, why can't they do that? Are we meant to believe that those artifacts we looted from Copper's cult were just pretty decorations that she had no idea how to use? Mechanically restricting the study of artifacts to Velvet alone has resulted in a big pile of unstudied artifacts.
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That... makes a lot of sense to be honest. There are quite a few reasons why the Wildhoof Club never allowed us to do that, the Master not ordering it and Velvet being responsible for studying the lores being the obvious reasons.

Since the Bureau would be loyal to us... that means we are the Master. We can build our Inner Circle and have one of them do the research we don't/can't do or maybe the lower cultists can do it too, we never commanded a Cult before so I'm mostly just rambling.
 
Shaper47 said:
Which is a massive issue due to Celestia and Eclipse gaining lore knowledge that we gave the Bureau being used to reveal us resulting in death rays. So it's a non starter.
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The current situation is that if Celestia attains a higher level of Lantern than we have of Moth she will be able to perceive our Lores. Which, given the current secretive situation, will presumably lead to unfavorable conclusions and the aforementioned death rays. Right now Eclipse and Celestia are making whatever progress they're making in complete secrecy, we do not know what they've achieved.

This course of action would legitimize our knowledge and Brand (can't forget the Brand) by openly stating our capabilities before they can be suddenly discovered, which would contextualize and hopefully soften the blow in the unfortunate event that Celestia made sudden and unforeseen strides in Lantern.

I say again, I am not proposing we deliberately tell them anything, rather that we present it as a done deal if and when someone notices the Bureau's supernatural investigations.


Shaper47 said:
Authority goes Princess Luna who is in hiding and thus doesn't count officially then Princess Celestia.

Celestia is our boss is has the Authority to demand the knowledge be handed over the the trusted ponies she's already hoof picked to study this.

And yes she absolutely will.
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We are at this point [Above All Suspicion], and extremely successful in our official duties. I'm willing to suppose that current Celestia might look at the Mono-lore Eclipse and the comprehensive Bureau, and instruct them to work with us. At which point we would have active insight into what they're actually capable of and we'd be able to plan accordingly rather than guess.


Shaper47 said:
Even on the off chance your right and ignoring the all the issues this would not grant us access to Discord.

It's safely imprisoned in Celestia's view and not unknown at all.
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Secret Histories by definition mean that there's always more to be known, the Changelings were more than just another random race of creatures, perhaps Discord was as well. We should make sure, just to be safe.

DelightedOne said:
Since the Bureau would be loyal to us... that means we are the Master. We can build our Inner Circle and have one of them do the research we don't/can't do or maybe the lower cultists can do it too, we never commanded a Cult before so I'm mostly just rambling.
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Best of all, if we could swing making this a part of our investigative duties, or at least convince ourselves bureaucratically speaking, then we could have that holy grail of [Government Funding]!
 
There's some thoughts and discussion going on, but so spread that I ain't gonna try to reply to someone specific.
But, the general thing is, people trying to figure their overall goals for next turn.

I'll order mine like so... pending changes as things happen in the rest of the turn.
1: Axe Sacrament
2: Outsider Progress
3: Familial stuff and putting out fires
4: Secret History Sacrament and Artifact study
5: Most everything else

Depending on the fire, maybe bump up the fire rating. Depending on the family, bump up the family rating. But that's the gist in my eyes.
 
Venerable Ro said:
Right now Eclipse and Celestia are making whatever progress they're making in complete secrecy, we do not know what they've achieved.
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You just gave me the funiest thought.

So we are Above All Suspicion, right? And Celestia already showed us the mirror, right?

Now, what if she shares Lantern 0 with us? Sure it sounds almost impossible but what if she decides "Velvet Covers is a loyal servant of the Crown and has performed her duties with astounding competence. She needs to know about this".

There are two reasons I can think of for that right now:
1. We are Above All Suspicion, the Alicorns trust us, Celestia saw something in Velvet that made her pause before and if we prove she made the right choice(the noble we are about to arrest) she could see us as more than deserving of the knowledge she acquired.

2. It helps with our job. Lantern is about truth, finding what is hidden and it would be wise to have the Comissioner of the Lunar Bureau be aware of such power when one of our main orders is to catch shapeshifters.
 
Giving the Bureau lore knowledge only matters if Eclipse lore knowledge is lower then the Bureau's. Eclipse has already reached zero level, and getting to level 1 is just something that happens, from finding any scrap of lore from that point.

So Eclipse will be reaching Level 1 next turn at the latest, if not this turn. And since their an easy source of Lantern lore in the Blank Plains, so not that hard to raise Lantern at all. 4 turns max to reach level 3 Lantern. At that point all the books in Celestia's various library's kick in and reaching 4 in any lore won't be hard.
 
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spiderhellian said:
Where do Forge ritual and Luna training fit in?

(though I think those two are almost guaranteed, or at least the first is, so it's nbd. I tend to agree with yours, though not sure about SH sacrament ranking.)
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Both of those I lump in as Family stuff (Training) and putting out fires (Let's not die)
 
Venerable Ro said:
You tell me, why can't they do that? Are we meant to believe that those artifacts we looted from Copper's cult were just pretty decorations that she had no idea how to use? Mechanically restricting the study of artifacts to Velvet alone has resulted in a big pile of unstudied artifacts.
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mechanical ruling. Which is why I'm hoping for a patch update, so to speak. With high artifacts we'd want to study them anyway for the scraps, but with low level ones? It makes sense we could delegate that.
 
Earth-Destroyer said:
So Eclipse will be reaching Level 1 next turn at the latest, if not this turn. And since their an easy source of Lantern lore in the Blank Plains, so not that hard to raise Lantern at all. 4 turns max to reach level 3 Lantern. At that point all the books in Celestia's various library's kick in and reaching 4 in any lore won't be hard.
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That requires them actually getting to Baldomare's lodge and/or the Orchard first. Which, considering they have none of the Lores necessary to navigate either the Woods or the Blank Plains, and the fact that everyone else moves MUCH slower through the Mansus than we do? And, as a reminder, scraps are only guaranteed on the FIRST visit?

No, they shouldn't be getting to Lantern 3/4 that quickly unless WE actively do something to leak greater Lantern knowledge to them, directly or indirectly.
 
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I am really glad Ash doesn't kill ponies (other than our direct targets) right now.
 
Greymere said:
No, they shouldn't be getting to Lantern 3/4 that quickly unless WE actively do something to leak greater Lantern knowledge to them, directly or indirectly.
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Yep, sounds about right. I think Eclipse might have an advantage in progression because they only know Lantern so of course they will only use their resources to progress in Lantern but that still doesn't let us know how the mechanics of their progress works and what happens if they find more lores and end up dividing their focus.

Talon Tiger Dino said:
I am really glad Ash doesn't kill ponies (other than our direct targets) right now.
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About that, should we tell Ash to Feast? Bird said Eclipse is still at the Crossroads so they won't find the debuff weird since it will be their first time there. And it also could help in slowing them down.
 
DelightedOne said:
Yep, sounds about right. I think Eclipse might have an advantage in progression because they only know Lantern so of course they will only use their resources to progress in Lantern but that still doesn't let us know how the mechanics of their progress works and what happens if they find more lores and end up dividing their focus.
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It was noted at the beginning at the quest that the Lores are very nonintuitive from an outside perspective, which is why this sort of thing runs in mystery cults instead of being constantly stumbled into grassroots-style.

It's also worth noting that there are plenty of mechanical challenges that simply cannot be solved with Lantern; escaping, evading or eliminating monsters for example.
 
Greymere said:
That requires them actually getting to Baldomare's lodge and/or the Orchard first. Which, considering they have none of the Lores necessary to navigate either the Woods or the Blank Plains, and the fact that everyone else moves MUCH slower through the Mansus than we do? And, as a reminder, scraps are only guaranteed on the FIRST visit?

No, they shouldn't be getting to Lantern 3/4 that quickly unless WE actively do something to leak greater Lantern knowledge to them, directly or indirectly.
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I think your forgetting that Eclipse has a over a dozen people all able to research and develop the lores. It not like the Cult where only Velvet was really able to raise the general knowledge level, Eclipse is made up entirely of members of people able to improve upon the lores.

Not to mention that once they get going, they can tap the massive reserves of books and artifacts Celestia has stockpiled over the last 1000 years, to the point a level 6 book any lore is just a favor she can hand out. And Celestial herself with her massive +50 general boost will be working to improve her lore knowledge, and just rocket thou the mansus ultra fast.
 
[X] Plan: Balanced Rewards

Intrigued by the Mareinette mystery box, but I'm hesitant with how much Velvet's been depending on her this turn. The bits are a good buffer, the actions are needed badly, and the Bureau loyalty is needed with the potential fallout.
 
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