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Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

Yes, but also the same is true of a Confidant :)
Not when you take into account that said new Confidant would need time and AP spent on her just to handle the inevitable complications.

If you want a new Confidant to handle Cover of Bases, Filthy Rich is right there and doesn't come with the looming threat of becoming an AP-devouring pit during a time we're already pressed for time and actions.
 
Wasn't that because she knew Twilight would not believe she needed to make friends(Twilight says that herself) to defeat Nightmare Moon? So she tried to guide her instead of outright saying it and have her ignore the advice altogether.
So Celestia knew that Twilight would not listen to her on this, so she did not tell her. Velvet knows that Twilight would not listen to her...


And ultimately for what, a confidant. Is that really that useful considering the effort needed for her to be truly useful, plus having to deal with any potential issues that arise. I doubt it'll be as simple as human Twilight comes over and immediately fits in with no suspicion. What else, a sense of accomplishment on Velvet's part that she finally "helped" a Twilight. If there was some greater good or even if it was helping one of her loved ones I could see it. Velvet doesn't know this Twilight, she has no connection to her. She's not a friend, she's a reflection of what used to be before events broke her, events Velvet played a part in. Velvet wants that Twilight back, but it's never going to happen and human Twilight can never really be her.

For me its more of a question of who Velvet should trust with pony Twilight. World created by Harmony. Or cult aligned with Wolf. As it is cult led by our daughter it should be obvious who we should trust in. :V

As for importance of human Twilight, her being one of Elements of Harmony is more important than being confidant. I would assume that Harmony will want functional friendship laser, and will cut corners if needed to ensure that replacement Element functions as intended. May help with Daybreaker Celestia , but we have Regrettable Actions as backup so I am not very worried.
 
Yes, but also the same is true of a Confidant :)
I already have the Risen and did not need to further ruin any lives to get it. It also doesn't need lessons in how to get used to its body, has no people that personally know it leading to pesky questions about changes in behavior, and even disposes of itself when its time is up. A strictly superior bot for the AP grind.

Also a lot more sacrificeable if we need a small bit of Eldritch oomph to something
 
is mirroring the relationship we once had with pony Twilight. Is this something that Velvet craves, that she needs? I mean, the teacher/student dynamic is a reflection of the maternal. There is perhaps some kind of "need to be needed" that Velvet has, that manifests in her having to adopt everypony she can. And Velvet has gotten mirror Twilight to sing the right notes.

Fair, though that's arguably just as toxic a reason for it. Though both can be true to an extent.

In other words, there are in-character reasons for Velvet to do this. And doing this is perhaps more in-character in some ways than not. The only question is perhaps what Velvet is willing or not willing to do, as OurLadyOfWires alludes to.

It's certainly in character for her to want to. Actually doing it depends on the day. Her morality line fluctuates at times depending on the circumstances. Some of that is us, some of that is just how people are in general. Despite all the lines Velvet has crossed, she's generally tried to do the best for those she cares about. Even in the case of leashing shining armor she at least believed it was what he wanted. Velvet feels guilty about Twilight, she cares. Being willing to discard that feels like a betrayal of a key part of her character.

For me its more of a question of who Velvet should trust with pony Twilight. World created by Harmony. Or cult aligned with Wolf. As it is cult led by our daughter it should be obvious who we should trust in.

I mean if you're voting from a you perspective okay. My point has always been I don't think Velvet actually cares what happens if she makes the choice to do it. She may delude herself otherwise, but that's all it is.

As for importance of human Twilight, her being one of Elements of Harmony is more important than being confidant. I would assume that Harmony will want functional friendship laser, and will cut corners if needed to ensure that replacement Element functions as intended. May help with Daybreaker Celestia , but we have Regrettable Actions as backup so I am not very worried.

We're near the ending. There's no way we have the action points to spare to make that happen. I know velvet hasn't met pinkie, and I don't think she's met Rainbow Dash either.
 
As for importance of human Twilight, her being one of Elements of Harmony is more important than being confidant. I would assume that Harmony will want functional friendship laser, and will cut corners if needed to ensure that replacement Element functions as intended. May help with Daybreaker Celestia , but we have Regrettable Actions as backup so I am not very worried.
Mirror Twilight isn't the Element of Magic though. The Element of Magic is the Twilight that would be getting banished. It's her title and everything. Mirror Twilight is just a student of Canterlot High.
 
EDIT: And the way the "unreliable narrator" might come in is that the good may be less than promised, while the bad may be glossed over. But that kind of analysis is… hard to do with certainty. (That's the idea with unreliable narration. :V)

I just had the thought actually, that this is a very dreamlike experience and Velvet tends to be somewhat oblivious to the effect she has on others at the best of times. We're Grail 4, carrying a maxed influence as well as a handful of other social bonuses, and we can't see our rolls. You've really got to question the degree of, informed consent that an isolated highschooler would be capable of in the face of such inadvertent interest.

Gads that sounds skeevy put like that.

Well good, it's a skeevy situation. Did we hit a natural 100 on the persuasion when we asked her to abandon her life? I don't know that we didn't, would that matter? Twist the narrative kaleidoscope a bit, lose the "Twilight Sparkle" label cluttering the perspective, and you get a situation that resembles one of the worse faery stories. Namely the ones where the fae didn't mean to cause harm but don't really care that they did either.
 
We're near the ending. There's no way we have the action points to spare to make that happen. I know velvet hasn't met pinkie, and I don't think she's met Rainbow Dash either.

We don't need to gather every Element of Harmony. They will gather together themselves if there is major and obvious threat on the horizon. Like Discord breaking free. Or Celestia going full on tyranny. We also have Cadence to give Royal Orders.

Mirror Twilight isn't the Element of Magic though. The Element of Magic is the Twilight that would be getting banished. It's her title and everything. Mirror Twilight is just a student of Canterlot High.
Human Twilight becomes Earth element of magic further down the line in canon. My guess is Harmony will want to have its laser assembled and will ensure that Human Twilight becomes Element in short order. In fact we don't even know how and why Human Twilight came into being. She could have been generated from ether along with the others as backups copies. Velvet also does not act very rational right now. And we don't know how much control Harmony have over its bearers when it is fully charged, so it is better to be ready for sudden but inevitable betrayal if its has its own designs on the Glory. So it again came to how much we are willing to trust it.
 
We don't need to gather every Element of Harmony. They will gather together themselves if there is major and obvious threat on the horizon. Like Discord breaking free. Or Celestia going full on tyranny. We also have Cadence to give Royal Orders.

Will they really. I mean in cannon they may have, but things are different. Cannon is currently in shambles. The bearer of the element of magic is broken. The lores are finding more prominence. There are three stains on the fabric of reality. Celestia is barely holding back Daybreaker. Names of old walk again in the Wake. I think it's a bit naive to assume it'll be that easy.
 
Will they really. I mean in cannon they may have, but things are different. Cannon is currently in shambles. The bearer of the element of magic is broken. The lores are finding more prominence. There are three stains on the fabric of reality. Celestia is barely holding back Daybreaker. Names of old walk again in the Wake. I think it's a bit naive to assume it'll be that easy.
This is why Harmony needs replacement Twilight. She is Isekay protagonist. Or have potential to be one. All you described are just bosses and mini-bosses to slay. Just don't forget to mention to Twilight that combination attacks are thing in the setting and she needs to rise relationship gauge with specific characters to unlock them.

Wait, no, Velvet did not look into Internet and can't explain things to human Twilight. Yes, now we are doomed.:V
 
Just in case some of us have overlooked it, my larger concern is on how this choice will impact Velvet Covers and her relationships, not whichever iteration of Twilight Sparkle. That's what I've been highly worried about, that choosing to do the swap will cause the characterization of Velvet Covers to become someone that her original self would have been willing to rebel against.
 
Because that also tells me what Velvet is and isn't willing to do.
Something that's been overlooked so far:
What will this mean for Hour!Velvet, when she has power and can do (almost) whatever she wants?

We aren't aiming for the Moon Ending, and I don't think this will have as immediately obvious an impact as aiding the Master in their gambit.
Still. Is this sort of Velvet someone you are ok with gaining ultimate power?
 
Something that's been overlooked so far:
What will this mean for Hour!Velvet, when she has power and can do (almost) whatever she wants?

We aren't aiming for the Moon Ending, and I don't think this will have as immediately obvious an impact as aiding the Master in their gambit.
Still. Is this sort of Velvet someone you are ok with gaining ultimate power?
Velvet that suffers from her own decisions, from being unable to help due to her own moral restraints
We don't know if swap would be better or worse for Pony Twilight. We can't know. As such Hour Velvet never can interfere, as it would not be her decision to make.
 
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well, I already have said plenty, as others did, as to why I think this is an incredibly selfish decision on Velvet's part that will most likely result in further suffering for pony twilight while also going against the very last request she made of us. The replacement goldfish argument is pretty apt, really.

But enough about that. I don't think anyone will change their mind about it at this point.

Vote Tally : Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience | Page 328 | Questionable Questing [Posts: 9853-10133]
##### NetTally 5.0.6

Task: 【NONE】
— Voters: 52

[X] Return home, with Diary and Frangiclave, and fulfill your bargain with the Daughter-of-Axes. (End the dream, and redistribute your remaining action points.)
No. of Votes: 26

[X] Return home, with Diary, Frangiclave, and something else besides. Or rather, someone. (End the dream, bringing Twilight Sparkle with you, and redistribute your remaining action points.)
No. of Votes: 24

[X] This place has a library. Go take a look.
No. of Votes: 16

[X] What is this "cellphone" all the kids are talking about? Why do you have one? And what is this "Internet" thing?
No. of Votes: 13

[X] They are young and impressionable. Thankfully, you are a responsible adult. (Hang out with Rarity and Fluttershy, your real-life confidantes)
No. of Votes: 12

[X] "Is there anything on your mind, Miss Jack?" (Approach Applejack)
No. of Votes: 9

[X] Alright, WHERE is Stormchaser? (Look for your dear beloved)
No. of Votes: 7

[X] "To be honest? I think your job is better than mine." (Approach Cheerilee. She is here… somewhere)
No. of Votes: 1

[X] "Yes, it's about your daughter. What class I teach her? Well…" (Approach the Rich parents)
No. of Votes: 1





Total No. of Voters: 52

I'll point out it seems nearly sure we WILL leave this turn, so to everyone who hasn't picked a side yet: vote for if we're taking EQG Twilight back with us or not. No matter what, it seems like we won't be staying here for one more AP.

Who knows, maybe we'll be able to come back in the future. We might just not have the reason to, though.

[X] Return home, with Diary and Frangiclave, and fulfill your bargain with the Daughter-of-Axes. (End the dream, and redistribute your remaining action points.)

For a different question... do you think we were wrong in staying an extra turn? I'm fairly sure basically everyone agrees we should have NOT picked the twilight questline here, but besides that, was the third turn, allowing us to understand a tiny bit more about the nature of this realm and its potential connection to Harmony, as well as seeing EQG Celestia and Luna... was it worth it?

I'm leaning towards no. We PROBABLY should have gone back the moment we had the Frangiclave, really.



For a different question... we're going back, and we have ONE more action to pick.

We consumed the Grail, Moth, SH, and Winter rerolls.

That leaves Knock, Lantern, Forge, and obviously the in-combat-every-6-rolls Edge one.

I think the main contenders right now are basically

1)Study artifacts. Lantern 4 first, and if we manage it on the first roll probably Winter 4 right after.


Studying an artifact:
-You roll against a CD of (50 + 10 times artifact Lore level), using Learning and Lantern Application.
-Your main objective is to discover if the artifact has any special properties, discover how to properly use it, and to ensure it is not cursed or dangerous to use.
-Upon success, you gain one scrap of the corresponding Lore, but you do not produce a corresponding Manuscript.

CD (why CD instead of DC?) 90. we roll +14 (Learning) +20 (Lantern 4) + 21 (AotL, as lantern gives +1 to learning and that should be doubled too).

so, CD 90, roll of +55... plus the bonus from SH artifact, so random between +5 and +15.

So in actuality we get one roll between +60 and +70, and a second roll at +39 to +49.

So, around 75% on the first artifact, and around 55% on the second one. Not counting the reroll we still have, so it's actually better than that!



2) Second option is taking advantage to the SH Influence still active to go and search for books to buy. we mostly want lvl 3+ Heart books, or lvl >4 "anything but Knock and SH" books. Expedition books would be nice too, as we can send our confidants and minions to do those.

This takes quite a decent amount of bits though, which we could instead use to pay for Expeditions and more summons (and Biedde and Mareinette if we have to renew them)


3)Uncle Steppes Fleeting Opportunity.

4)We could search for a ritual location, or even an expedition site.

5)We could teach grail 4 to Rarity

6)We could, in theory, do the Memory of Light research. Same bonus as artifact study with reroll, we're very likely to get step 1 done in a single action (@OurLadyOfWires can we have Jade or Baldomare do step 2 if Velvet does step 1, or is she then "committed" to it?)

7)We could explore more of the mansus. With all this rerolls already spent we're not ready for the Ruined Church (Especially considering the first obstacle is an HEART one, our only lvl 3 left), but we could explore more of the Wolf-areas, or the Shattered Stairways.

8)We could, IN THEORY, take a personal SH Sacrament action. I wouldn't recommend it without the reroll though.

Am I forgetting anything...

oh, an out-there suggestion

9)We could do the "summon influence" ritual! then we'd get that influence (+10 to +40) for 2 turns. Of course it's questionable if and which influence we'd want.


"The calling of Influence"
-CD: Any aspect, as follows:
Desired Effect+10+20+30+40
CD6080110150
-Cost: 30 bits on simple materials.

SEVERAL UNSTUDIED ARTIFACTS (additional details to be revealed once studied) of the following levels:
-HEART Level 1
-SECRET HISTORIES Level 1
-MOTH Level 1
-MOTH Level 3
-WINTER Level 4

HEART Level 1 (Reagent)

MOTH Level 4 (Reagent)

If we went for Lantern or Grail or Heart (or Edge), we could probably free up Mareinette or Baldomare or Biedde for other actions, though it's fairly likely we'd get a tier 2 or 3 influence, tier 4 is very unlikely. Still, it could come in handy.

All in all IF we're planning to USE the influence in the next two turns, even a tier 2 or 3 can be valuable. In fact... I think getting a Lantern Influence, to go on a studying spree next turn could be worth it. That would also leave us Baldomare's action free to take her SH influence again for the personal Sacrament (or her own, which might not even require an SH roll. Axe's didn't, not as a main pre-requisite at least)


...yeah, I kinda like the idea. If we went Lantern influence, then next turn we could study multiple things AND do Baldomare's SH Sacrament. We could study the Winter and Lantern artifacts, and the books.
 
For a different question... do you think we were wrong in staying an extra turn?
I somewhat regret it even though a Harmony clue appeared. Now I'm wondering if we could tell human Twilight about Harmony and how her world is bathed in magic light so she can keep herself busy with that.
 
For a different question... do you think we were wrong in staying an extra turn? I'm fairly sure basically everyone agrees we should have NOT picked the twilight questline here, but besides that, was the third turn, allowing us to understand a tiny bit more about the nature of this realm and its potential connection to Harmony, as well as seeing EQG Celestia and Luna... was it worth it?
Yeah I think we should have left as soon as we got the Frangiclave. Which, well, I already was of that opinion before the last vote, but the results mostly just confirmed for me that yes, we should have been better off using that AP for something else in the real world rather than puttering around here longer.

6)We could, in theory, do the Memory of Light research. Same bonus as artifact study with reroll, we're very likely to get step 1 done in a single action (@OurLadyOfWires can we have Jade or Baldomare do step 2 if Velvet does step 1, or is she then "committed" to it?)
Jade's already on it this turn, remember?
 
Jade's already on it this turn, remember?
And there is also the chance of Step 2 needing the Step 1 ritual to actually be cast instead of just finished, if the knowledge to advance the ritual comes from the ritual. Or maybe Jade needs to study Selene again or another Alicorn.
 
well, I already have said plenty, as others did, as to why I think this is an incredibly selfish decision on Velvet's part that will most likely result in further suffering for pony twilight while also going against the very last request she made of us. The replacement goldfish argument is pretty apt, really.
That is once again making the same mistake the voting has always made with Twilight. In being to gentle, every single time the thread voted to be gentle and got worse off with Twilight.

Twilight is not a pony that responds to the gentle approach, their a reason Celestia kicked her out of Canterlot, without any warning or advice. Twilight only really learns the hard way.

Not doing the swap is just Velvet being a plain coward. When someone is mentally compromised like Twilight is they are not allowed to makes big life choices. Doing the swap is the only thing left to help Twilight, extreme situations requires extreme actions to solve.
 
For a different question... do you think we were wrong in staying an extra turn?
Inconsequential.
I see no path where, after what happened, we didn't stay that extra turn.

Given the choices that were made in preceding turns, and the general priorities, the options that were there simply were the most likely.
Much as I wanted to have that chat with Cheerilee, it simply wasn't happening.

As for the action when we get back?
I'm leaning towards Steps FA, but could be convinced towards Artifact study.


Oh, and,
What will this mean for Hour!Velvet, when she has power and can do (almost) whatever she wants?
It's not so much this is being ignored. It is the bedrock of discussion, just not really put to words. If the rolls succeed, and Velvet passes through the gate... Who is it that reached Glory?

To put it an annoying way.
It's easy to answer "What would you do to succeed?" Anything, right?
It's less easy for most to answer "What would you not do, if it risks failure?"
 
eh, between (hopefully) Baldomare and Axe, and ideally a few mares-in-the-mirror we can equip with other studied artifacts, Mareinette would definitely help but is NOT necessary.
My fear is that she will become an obstacle or try to do something with Silky or just GRAILBOMB Canterlot into opposing us, if she realizes the likely lethal things(that many posters want) that we will do to her if we have the chance, the desperation or indignation of a noblemare directed at Velvet is not something i want to read.
Doing the swap is the only thing left to help Twilight, extreme situations requires extreme actions to solve.
Not really, i'm sure she will have plenty of time in the future to oppose Velvet when she recovers her horn, and thus some capability and motivation, just like Sci-Twi when she meets with Sunset.

And nobody tell me that i'm jumping to the worst case scenario in vain because almost everyone else is doing it for the option they don't like, this has happened before, always overestimating us and underestimating the opposition, like Biedde and the recent attack, thinking that we will be luckier that we are, while also underestimating OurLady writing and memory, do we need a repeat of the Master jumpscare or dance with death to get the hint?
 
Not really, i'm sure she will have plenty of time in the future to oppose Velvet when she recovers her horn, and thus some capability and motivation, just like Sci-Twi when she meets with Sunset.

And nobody tell me that i'm jumping to the worst case scenario in vain because everyone else is doing it for the option they don't like, this has happened before, always overestimating us and underestimating the opposition, thinking that we will be luckier that we are, while also underestimating OurLady writing and memory, do we need a repeat of the Master jumpscare or dance with death to get the hint?
You know, I find it interesting that you seem to consider Sunset enough of a threat that you're insisting that she'll totally corrupt Mirror Twilight and have her cause issues for us in a meaningful time frame, and yet at the same time not enough of a threat to the point where you just ignore the possibility that she would do that same to a much more vulnerable real Twilight, who has many more reasons to actually be angry at us and hold a grudge against others in Equestria in general.
 
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Not really, i'm sure she will have plenty of time in the future to oppose Velvet when she recovers her horn, and thus some capability and motivation, just like Sci-Twi when she meets with Sunset.
That would require Velvet to take any action with Twilight which GM confirmed will not happen under any circumstance. Velvet will not heal her Horn or send anybody do it themslevesl either, and nobody else will. Twilight only path left if we don't do the swap the Wolf's jaws.
 
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well, I already have said plenty, as others did, as to why I think this is an incredibly selfish decision on Velvet's part that will most likely result in further suffering for pony twilight while also going against the very last request she made of us. The replacement goldfish argument is pretty apt, really.
Twilight only told us to never speak to her
We follow her order to the letter.


But enough about that. I don't think anyone will change their mind about it at this point.
On the one hand I want more Soft and pony Twilight interaction. On the other hand I don't like Velvet morals standing in the way of her helping others, be it pony Twilight or Human one. And being selfish to a degree is not a crime.

I think replacement Twilight blinds people. As prizes go, she is not very good one. We get one confidant, and in exchange we get plenty of problems to deal with. I actually don't see people being very enthusiastic about getting her.
Imagine if she was not in the picture at all. Say we only have option to throw pony Twilight in the Mirror, there is no human Twilight.

Would it be selfish decision then, or desperate one? If there was no chance for pony Twilight recovery in Equestria? After all Mirror world being worse for her is just conjecture, which people convinced themselves about due to them not wishing to violate her free will.

I don't consider Mirror world to be a place for her to get a therapy. First of all she would not expect her parents or brother to believe her, she should know better by now. Perhaps she would mention being pony and magic at the beginning, but after seeing their reaction would not insist on it and would later present it as a joke.

Second she would have an actual goal, or at least direction. In Equestria she thinks that she knows everything in regards to her situation and nothing can be changed for the better. On Earth she knows nothing. Is there magic to be studied? She does not know. Which means that would be something to investigate. If she finds Human Twilight notes she at least would know that the other her looked for magic. Perhaps even found. If she is in human Twilight body does it mean that the other Twilight is in her body right now? Doing who knows what? Was it one of her machines that done it? I think there is plenty of things for pony Twilight to be busy about on Mirror world. No time for depression at all.

Is it guarantee? No. But people don't want guarantee. They want excuse for inaction.

You know, I find it interesting that you seem to consider Sunset enough of a threat that you're insisting that she'll totally corrupt Mirror Twilight and have her cause issues for us in a meaningful time frame, and yet at the same time not enough of a threat to the point where you just brush over the possibility that she would go after a vulnerable real Twilight, who has many more reasons to actually be angry at us and hold a grudge against others in Equestria in general.
Twilight being threat to us while not being Wolfed is still improvement over her current situation.
 
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Imagine if she was not in the picture at all. Say we only have option to throw pony Twilight in the Mirror, there is no human Twilight.
If getting Mirror Twilight wasn't in the picture, then we wouldn't be having this vote at all.

Velvet, IC, isn't thinking about real Twilight at all here, when she's talking to DoA. She just fixated on "saving" Mirror Twilight and is ignoring any and all implications of what that action would entail for the other Twilight, whether they would be for good or ill.
 
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If getting Mirror Twilight wasn't in the picture, then we wouldn't be having this vote at all.

Velvet, IC, isn't thinking about real Twilight at all here, when she's talking to DoA. She just fixated on "saving" Mirror Twilight and is ignoring any and all implications of what that action would entail for the other Twilight, whether they would be for good or ill.
I mean for players, not for Velvet. if we speak strictly about Velvet it shoud be obvious that she is not doing it to get free labor from Human Twilight.


Edit: Also Velvet thoughts are player discussion.
 
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where you just ignore the possibility that she would do that same to a much more vulnerable real Twilight
She would likely be to depressed in the Asylum, because nothing good can happen to her if the swap happens i guess.
You know, I find it interesting that you seem to consider Sunset enough of a threat that you're insisting that she'll totally corrupt Mirror Twilight and have her cause issues for us in a meaningful time frame
I did say that i was jumping to the worst case scenario didn't i?
Twilight only path left if we don't do the swap the Wolf's jaws.
The swap is better than the WOLF.

8 hours left.
 
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Hi guests, 👋 now would be a good time to make an account and join in on the insanity fun, give us your votes.

Also, there are sadly probably plenty of readers that only come in and vote whenever there's a threadmark or when Bird posts, we need a way to lure them in hmmm 🤔.

Come all!! We have punch and pie.

Edit: aaannnddd they scattered.
 
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