Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

[ses]

Aww, her first Rival!

Been doing a lot of old reading. Kind of hilarious to see the responses to Our Lady of Birds asking the thread to pre-register their predictions to what the Master might do next to demonstrate how terrible the thread is at reading the Master's motivations and intent. Obviously no one predicted his fillyfication scheme but even beyond that it was wall to wall being totally off base and complete lack of ability to imagine her as anything but a windigo-fueled slaughterbot determined to douse the lights.


Been thinking about Esquestria achievement runs.

Reach the Grand Galloping Gala without triggering [When Histories Change]

Become Commissioner of the Lunar Bureau

Fillify and adopt 3 alicorns in a single playthrough

Satisfy the requirements of the Tribal Door having committed no murders other than Personal Winter Sacrament

Have Rarity willingly hand over Sweetie Belle for [An Invitation to Dinner]

Utilize Twilight Sparkle for The Conversation

Send all three Cutie Mark Crusaders on Baldomare's Lantern Sacrament expedition

Reach Mareinette without having met a single other Name

Obtain the Frangiclave on Daughter-of-Axe's first turn in the Wake

Be consumed by Worms on Turn 2

Defeat the Temple of the Wheel on Turn 2

Reach 6/7 Stains Upon The Soul before the end of Turn 10, then achieve a Harmony victory

 

[spiderhellian]

Been doing a lot of old reading. Kind of hilarious to see the responses to Our Lady of Birds asking the thread to pre-register their predictions to what the Master might do next to demonstrate how terrible the thread is at reading the Master's motivations and intent. Obviously no one predicted his fillyfication scheme but even beyond that it was wall to wall being totally off base and complete lack of ability to imagine her as anything but a windigo-fueled slaughterbot determined to douse the lights.

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Hahahaha what was this? Does seem funny (and sad) in retrospect.

 

[DelightedOne]

Reach 6/7 Stains Upon The Soul before the end of Turn 10, then achieve a Harmony victory

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Why the fuck do I actually like that idea?

I surprised myself with what I felt when I read it. Still would rather have a clean Harmony Victory but that is very interesting.

 

[Arrkhon]

Why the fuck do I actually like that idea?

I surprised myself with what I felt when I read it. Still would rather have a clean Harmony Victory but that is very interesting.

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Because it showcases the utter contempt for the way the world is and desires for fixing it going far beyond the reasonable
The real fun trick is going for Harmonic 7/7 stains

 

[DelightedOne]

Because it showcases the utter contempt for the way the world is and desires for fixing it going far beyond the reasonable
The real fun trick is going for Harmonic 7/7 stains

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*Points at you* Wolf Follower. Got it.

Since 7/7 Stains automatically achieves the Mother of Wolves Anti-Victory I'll assume that is a joke.

 

[Arrkhon]

*Points at you* Wolf Follower. Got it.

Since 7/7 Stains automatically achieves the Mother of Wolves Anti-Victory I'll assume that is a joke.

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It is a joke, on Wolf Divided that is
I am sure that with enough Harmony support we could blunt the edges of whatever we birth enough that they would count as perfectly reasonable members of community and the same would apply to their kids as well, potentially even leaving us with something that could help with the Worms

 

[Sveta08]

It is a joke, on Wolf Divided that is
I am sure that with enough Harmony support we could blunt the edges of whatever we birth enough that they would count as perfectly reasonable members of community and the same would apply to their kids as well, potentially even leaving us with something that could help with the Worms

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Ha
Ha
Ha

I do not think you understand what the Wolf is.

 

[Shaper47]

The Wolf is no doubt way better then Harmony but Mother of Wolves ending is still an era of darkness.

For Velvet going Mother of Wolves is a failure, a victory yes but still a personal failure.

 

[Rafuki22]

The Wolf is no doubt way better then Harmony

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Harmony is better than the Wolf because the only thing worse than the Wolf are the Worms.

And saying that the Wolf is with no doubt better than Harmony is like saying that the honest omnicidal supervillain is better than the secretive maybe ignorant president, which is like...no he isn't, at all.

 

[Shaper47]

Harmony is better than the Wolf because the only thing worse than the Wolf are the Worms.

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You say you disagree and yet your words support that Wolf is better the Worm calling Harmony.

 

[Rafuki22]

You say you disagree and yet your words support that Wolf is better the Worm calling Harmony.

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Answering was a mistake, goodnight.

 

[DelightedOne]

You say you disagree and yet your words support that Wolf is better the Worm calling Harmony.

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Once again doing my corrections to keep the truth on the thread.

Saying the Wolf is better than the Worms and that Harmony is better than the Wolf means that in a scale of worst to best case scenarios we have: Worms, Wolf and finally Harmony.

Not whatever you tried to do to someone else's words... again.

 

[Shaper47]

Even on the off chance Harmony is better then the Wolf which is wild guessing not based on anything solid because we don't know anything about Harmony.

We still have to face the issue of the Worms before reaching a Harmony victory. Because aiming for a Harmony victory increases the chances of defeat via the Worms.

 

[DelightedOne]

I think we are all tired of needing to say Harmony isn't evil(check the Son with that name if you want evil) but since I have what is basically a Dedication to it, let's go again I guess.

Using the description of the Mother of Wolves "Victory"

The last way to safeguard ponykind is to simply douse the lights. No lights, no Worms, no End. This is a "victory" only in the sense that it is a victory against the Worms. Ponykind would, by definition, also lose.

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We reach the reasonable conclusion that the Wolf isn't really something good.

On the other hand we have extensive ooc knowledge about Harmony and know it is good through it, there is also all Harmonious actions/events/signs we have seen. Velvet herself has no idea of Harmony's morality but we can paint a pretty good picture of it with what we know.

Besides the total lack of proof of the Harmony Path increasing the amount of Worms in the World we have no knowledge of the Worms being an obstacle in this.

There is also the tiny detail of Harmony wanting the World to keep going out of care and love and the Wolf wanting to End it out of pain and hatred. 1+1 anyone?

 

[Shaper47]

Besides the total lack of proof of the Harmony Path increasing the amount of Worms in the World we have no knowledge of the Worms being an obstacle in this.

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Now this is just plain false.

 

[DelightedOne]

Now this is just plain false.

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How? I would be happy to listen to your arguments.

 

[Shaper47]

How? I would be happy to listen to your arguments.

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Aside from the Master mentioning it (and the talk giving us a Lantern scrap from the revelation of the truth).

There's the entire Luna interlude we're it revealed that the light of Harmony via the dreamlands is calling the Worms (equivalent to a light in the darkness).

Now the thread generally agrees that Harmony doesn't have bad intentions though it's unknown if Harmony is calling the Worms out of ignorance or if they consider it a lesser evil for their plans.

But Harmony calling the Worms is pretty much an accepted fact alongside Harmony generally being Good/having good intentions.

 

[DelightedOne]

Aside from the Master mentioning it (and the talk giving us a Lantern scrap from the revelation of the truth).

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You mean this one?

A light has been shed, distant as if at the end of a tunnel, pinprick-bright like a star in the night sky. But still, it brings with it the revelation of purpose. It is unkind in its finality, seeing that there is nothing to be done but change and hide, or be consumed, but it is the only light you have. Gain one scrap of Lantern Lore.

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Yes we did get knowledge that Harmony is to blame for the Worms coming and I didn't deny it.

"Thirdly, we may embrace what is new, and embrace Change. Harmony is to blame, for all of this, but it has power, and it has made covenant with the alicorns. It is passive and bright, but although it may not act it is still a power that be. We know not how it thinks, or if it thinks at all, but it has enough of a sentience to have communed with the outsiders, even if only to decree that they needed to enter by birth. The alicorns might be the only path to Harmony, as their scions, or there may be other paths we do not know, but if we reach for Harmony… we may be able to change it, and teach it to hide, as much as we may allow it to change us so we may better bend it to our will."

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(Curious how the Lantern scrap mentioned change and hide and the Master refered to the Harmony Victory as Change)

What I said was that there was no proof the Harmony Path(as in, trying to reach the Harmony Victory) would bring more Worms to the World, but I understand the confusion.

 

[Shaper47]

What I said was that there was no proof the Harmony Path(as in, trying to reach the Harmony Victory) would bring more Worms to the World, but I understand the confusion.

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From my understanding, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, the actions taken to reach the Harmony Victory generally seem to involve making Harmony/Harmony's influence stronger thus increasing the light which brings more Worms to the World. Increasing the influence of the lores thus decreases Harmony's influence and thus decreases the light bringing the Worms. While the Wolf actions straight up bring darkness to the world and massively help keep the World safe from the Worms.

Now it's maybe possible to somehow aim for the Harmony Victory while avoiding strengthing Harmony, we just need to key and door afterall. But I'm really doubtful that that's the case. It just feels like the equivalent to aiming for a lore Victory while not learning any of the lores.

 

[DelightedOne]

From my understanding, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, the actions taken to reach the Harmony Victory generally seem to involve making Harmony/Harmony's influence stronger thus increasing the light which brings more Worms to the World. Increasing the influence of the lores thus decreases Harmony's influence and thus decreases the light bringing the Worms. While the Wolf actions straight up bring darkness to the world and massively help keep the World safe from the Worms.

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Well, neither of us has a point on that since we have not taken a single step on the Harmony Path yet(or maybe we did but the Wolf and Velvet's ignorance did not allow us to understand it). So I guess we should take it to find out who is right.

Or maybe we will find out with Jade's research this turn, hard to know with our QM.

Now it's maybe possible to somehow aim for the Harmony Victory while avoiding strengthing Harmony, we just need to key and door afterall. But I'm really doubtful that that's the case. It just feels like the equivalent to aiming for a lore Victory while not learning any of the lores.

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A lore victory only really requires the Blood of the Outsider trait doesn't it? We could have just gone the artifact route and climbed the Mansus like that(I think that is what Bird expected at first).

Though the Branding Door did require one Realization if I'm not mistaken.

And yeah we just need to find a Path, find a Door, find the Key and finally join the Key and the Door to open it to win.

I think you are right about a Harmony Victory strengthening Harmony itself but it feels like something the would happen post-Victory, like the lores becoming mainstream again because there is a new Hour for Glory, the Wolf dousing the Lights for Mother of Wolves and the old Hours being restored for Moon. Like the final result instead of the actual intention.

 

[Shaper47]

Though the Branding Door did require one Realization if I'm not mistaken.

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The Moon doesn't even require that.

I think you are right about a Harmony Victory strengthening Harmony itself but it feels like something the would happen post-Victory, like the lores becoming mainstream again because there is a new Hour for Glory, the Wolf dousing the Lights for Mother of Wolves and the old Hours being restored for Moon. Like the final result instead of the actual intention.

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Hmm, disagree with you here. Like, yes a majority of the changes will appear after the Victory but the seeds are sown during the passage there.

We've already given Harmony a Victory with Caddy that strengthened Harmony afterall.

Luna being around but not hidden via Moth for instance would probably have been a Harmony Victory.

The Elements being a thing would be Harmony Victory.

It's kinda a self forfilling prophecy. If we were aiming for a Harmony Victory we'd be strengthing Harmony because we were aiming for a Harmony Victory. You get what I mean right, it's a playstyle thing.

It probably just doesn't feel this way because of Harmony's starting position on the board in comparison to the other players.

 

[Sveta08]

I am, frankly, tired of this argument.

I am going to be kind and give doubt. As, I do not know if it is from ignorance, or misunderstanding, or reading comprehension, or from willful misattribution, or if it is born of simple misunderstanding, or what have you. I have my guesses, but I do not know.
But I am frankly tired of this deadlock.

Here. Have the blasted passage.

"Firstly, we may reach for Glory. The Mansus is a reflection of the world, as the world is a reflection of the Mansus, so if we acquire dominion over the Mansus we may be able to influence the world on a more general, intimate level. The very peak of the House is a goal as old as time, of course, but we are now sure that if we reach it then our goals might be fulfilled. That perhaps we may have the same… agency, as that place may have granted in the past."

"Secondly, we may reach for the Moon, instead. It is a long-lost knowledge now, but the Moon was once a reflection of the Sun, of Glory, and all that it bathed. Within the Mansus, that is. It seems, however, that said reflection is still one of the Mansus on its old form, from an era when the Mansus itself was different. There is a path, to the Moon, and if we find it and tread it then we may be able to rescue that image, and make it real."

"Thirdly, we may embrace what is new, and embrace Change. Harmony is to blame, for all of this, but it has power, and it has made covenant with the alicorns. It is passive and bright, but although it may not act it is still a power that be. We know not how it thinks, or if it thinks at all, but it has enough of a sentience to have communed with the outsiders, even if only to decree that they needed to enter by birth. The alicorns might be the only path to Harmony, as their scions, or there may be other paths we do not know, but if we reach for Harmony… we may be able to change it, and teach it to hide, as much as we may allow it to change us so we may better bend it to our will."

"And finally," the voice grows… heavier, "we may simply douse the flames. Better to have a cold world than have no world at all."

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Four paths. Four Victory conditions.

Now, I'm going to presume this, and similar like it, have caused much confusion. Not because the passage is unclear, but because our use of things it talks about is unclear. So let me be very clear.
Harmony, is a thing. The Harmony Victory condition, is a different thing.
Glory, is a thing. The Glory Victory condition, is a different thing.
The Wolf, is a thing. The Mother of Wolves, is a different thing.
And as much as we have dealt with the moon, we haven't dealt with The Moon past finding the walk to it's step.


So, now that we might not be talking past eachother...


The Harmony Victory, is not about simply frolicking willy nilly waiting for the worms to consume all. I do not believe any potential reading of anything we have found would point to that. Harmony itself, may have been ignorant to the plight the worms pose (once) and thus, been, as the Master put it, bright. This attracts the Worms. The path of Harmony as a victory path, seems to have been focused on both learning about Harmony, and teaching Harmony about the other ways, that things might be made to change to avoid the Worms, or combat them. Again, it's a giant box that even the Master did not know what it's extent of its potential was.

So. Harmony by being ignorant and itself was luring worms. The harmony path seems to be focused on either learning to harness Harmony's power, or to teach Harmony.
So when people keep arguing about Harmony, I want to rip out my hair. Because Harmony as a thing and Harmony as a victory path are separate things.


Hell, it's... Harmony, like The Wolf, like Glory, is a semi-pseudo-sapient thing of power. Actual, functional, useful, and with costs associated with its use. Each having victory conditions as they are built upon the precept that having power gives options and opportunity to do something. How?
The Wolf, cross the line seven times.
Glory, Rise.
The Moon, remember the world and the world will remember.
Harmony, teach and be taught and the change that brings.


It's... It's power. It's always been. And it's always been a question of uncertainty and costs.
The Wolf is Absolute Power and Absolute Cost
The Glory is Known Power and Known Costs
The Harmony is Unknown Power and Unknown Costs

It has and has always been. And I'm so sick and tired of this argument every month. It means we can't focus on fun, engaging, or genuinely interesting things and keep getting caught on... blasted finger pointing and name calling. This one's Good and you're Bad for opposing it... That one's Bad and you are Good for opposing it...

So tired of this argument

 

[Shaper47]

I'm pretty sick off the argument too to be honest.

Especially since it's all talk instead of action.

Investigate the ward, social our children. These are the things that would give answers to end this dead horse of a debate.

 

[DelightedOne]

The Moon doesn't even require that.

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Uh, it actually does. A Sacrament needs a Realization after all.

To even begin this journey, to even begin mapping out the phases of the Mansus-moon, you require a Secret Histories Sacrament.

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I think we should just stop comparing the Paths, they seem to be too... divergent for that. Huh, Sveta kinda said some of what I wanted when I was writing... so that is what is like being moth'd.

It's kinda a self forfilling prophecy. If we were aiming for a Harmony Victory we'd be strengthing Harmony because we were aiming for a Harmony Victory. You get what I mean right, it's a playstyle thing.

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I honestly read the story as Harmony had a guaranteed Victory... till the Moth Name decided to play. Then Velvet became the Linchpin(*gasp* that could be her name as an Hour)and now everything depends on her and if it is not her, the Worms win. I'm not sure if my interpretation is correct though.

Thank you for the talk, it was very fun. Now goodnight because I'm starting to see blurred.

 

[Sveta08]

Then Velvet became the Linchpin

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I mean, the chapter is called "When the linchpin cracks"

 

[OurLadyOfWires]

Just throwing my own hat into the pile. But for the record-

[] You became a linchpin, around which every possible answer rotated. Not the map, not the world, not even Luna herself knew where she was… until you circled it with your feathered pen. Gain 1 scrap of SECRET HISTORIES Lore.

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-the "linchpin" analogies have been planted into the quest for, uh, a very long time now.

Also,

this argument

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insert "he's right you know" Morgan Freeman meme here.



Anyways, I hope you are all doing well. Haven't caught up to thread yet, and there's some cool stuff I still gotta threadmark. But more on that later.

 

[ses]

I honestly read the story as Harmony had a guaranteed Victory... till the Moth Name decided to play. Then Velvet became the Linchpin(*gasp* that could be her name as an Hour)and now everything depends on her and if it is not her, the Worms win. I'm not sure if my interpretation is correct though.

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Thank you! Someone else points it out! [When Histories Change] is explicit that canon wasn't derailed until the end of Turn 4! If the Inner Circle and Velvet had gotten hit by a truck and isekai reincarnated to Earth on turn 1 everything would have played out the same as in the show, including the flashforward to Princess Supreme Twilight Sparkle a lifetime later and that's a constraint that ALL background changes to the worldbuilding must adhere to.

The light of Harmony attracts worms? Why should it need to hide? We already know what happens to those who are drawn to light...

IN GIRUM IMUS NOCTE ET CONSUMIMUR IGNI

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

IN GIRUM IMUS NOCTE ET CONSUMIMUR IGNI

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"The Worms and Windigos can't catch if you're ON FIRE."
- Harmony's Treatise on Defense Against Omnihostile Entities, Page 1

 

[IronHydra]

At this point, I feel a need to see a "In Which: The Harmony Meets The Glory"
Where our timelines/histories merge for a meeting between the different versions of the cast, how Princess Alicorn Twilight reacts to her Wounded and Broken self. And Harmony Spike realizing he doesn't have a doppelganger.

Luna and Selene, the other Mane 6 meeting their counterparts and knowing something went wrong, that they never became the proper bearers of Harmony. Cadence and Shining seeing the things that don't add up.

And then there's only one Velvet, showing that her being void from the Harmony bunch that there might be a reason as to why things seem so much worse.