Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

[Shaper47]

If something put new wards in place, then that means the old ones are broken.

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It doesn't say "new" wards it just says "ward".

Which means for all we know a Heart Hour might have reinforced the heart wards or created a new ward before dying.

Which has implications and issues.

But I'm pretty sure the Wake is still standing because the Dreamlands are acting as Worm bait(probably not on purpose), so instead of coming to the Wake they lick the dream doors of ponies to feed.

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It's a possibility.

The Dreamlands does have anti-worm properties even if they are extreamly badly designed.

 

[DelightedOne]

It doesn't say "new" wards it just says "ward".

Which means for all we know a Heart Hour might have reinforced the heart wards or created a new ward before dying.

Which has implications and issues.

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"But there were protections back there. Wards and traps, barriers and thresholds, even the very powers that be would defend Equestria against the worms.

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Were protections, WERE. In the past.

The Will of the Woods wasn't aware of the new thing, Baldomare had no idea what it was, just that something kept the World standing.

The Dreamlands does have anti-worm properties even if they are extreamly badly designed.

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Does it count as badly designed if it likely wasn't designed at all?

 

[Shaper47]

The Will of the Woods wasn't aware of the new thing, Baldomare had no idea what it was, just that something kept the World standing.

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I don't think there's any clear evidence that it is a new thing?

Or that there's any clear evidence that it's not an old thing.

Old Lore workings were still around at the start of the quest, like those heirloom artifacts.

Does it count as badly designed if it likely wasn't designed at all?

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Shugs shoulders.

Anyways how about we leave as "don't know" and don't make any certain claims about what's going on intill we get more information.

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

I'd still rather bank on Harmony fighting the Worms since it can actually destroy them rather than stuff their undying remains into a museum for eternity. I also still really want to see Selene/Luna cleaning up the Dreamlands, but unless any greater worms are present I guess it would be rather boring as the lesser ones evaporate from her presence before she can see them.

 

[Solace2117]

if I remember right the QM mentioned at on point that Baldomare's SH Sacrament has to do with the history of the world. So bright side, if we do it next turn we may actually get some answers about it.

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

as for worthy opponents in Tall Tale... I think it's really unlikely.

Keep in mind, the WEAKEST "worthy opponent" we know of was basically Shining Armor, arguably the best pony fighter in Equestria (that does not have access to Lores, obviously). The second weakest is I think Comet.

so, unless somehow a buffed Pharinx in Tall Tale... though it's not admittedly impossible. But we'd have to get really lucky.


are you assuming Biedde will NOT do whatever he's planning to Biedde if we don't meet him?

Weird assumption.

Biedde's story is... not quite ending, but he's basically going to lose all if not most of his free will, if not his life.

[X] Plan: IM FROM PONYVILLE AND I SAY KILL EM ALL

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Look, if xenomorphs can have Praetorians that develop into queens when the current one kicks it, why not one for the Changelings? I'm willing to believe in such a possibility.

I am assuming that the proper time and the proper mindset is of import to whatever Biedde is doing, and that he can be patient when it serves a purpose.

At least we are agreed on how it is good and proper to take our Max Lantern and Edge Influences to annihilate the Hive of Tall Tale.

 

[OurLadyOfWires]

Temporary threadmark, since the auto-tallying mechanism seems to be a bit broken at the moment.

Vote will close in some twenty-six hours from now. Basically, starting tomorrow at midday whenever I log in to get it done.

I have a feeling enough people caught wind that we are all back here, and we have seventeen votes cast already (according to the "New Tally" system). And given the hiatus, and how complicated it is to come back and cast a turn vote, I think those are massively good numbers.

Anyways, just letting you know I feel we can set a closing date to this vote for tomorrow.

In other news:

Spoiler: QM rambling

IM FROM PONYVILLE AND I SAY KILL EM ALL

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Not gonna lie, this plan name made me laugh.

2. I imagine he's living in Manehatten, so that is true. From the show, I was under the impression that the Apple family apples are one of the BIG NAMES of food in Equestria. Kind of like Round Up and Monsanto was THE big name in the farming and weed-killing industries until relatively recently. If that's not true, or not canon for this Quest, I'm happy to change it, but that was my understanding. Especially with their 'zap apple' stuff.

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Your entire post is very sensible, and I like your line of thought! And no need for me to tell "my opinion" because I legitimately want to see more of your ideas, rather than see you try and conform to "quest canon" (it's a fanfic, so who cares about the "quest's canon"!)

Although, I wanted to point out this particular part of your message for one reason.

You may think this is a cheap trick. But whenever I see an opportunity like THIS, I usually go the other direction.
What I mean to say is: Here, you wanted to make the world feel more "integrated", right? Granny Smith is a household name in Ponyville, Zap Apples are enough of a luxury resource that it has an entire episode dedicated to it, and making a character all the way in Manehattan talk about Granny Smith can make the world feel more "connected" right?
I think that is a valid opinion. Having a tight-knit world with parts that talk to each other makes it feel alive and vibrant. I'm not discounting or criticizing this in any way.
But consider the opposite.
Whenever I think about a Manehattan character's opinion on Granny Smith, I most of the time prefer the "Granny-who? Never heard of her" alternative.
Because it is true that Granny Smith is old, and experienced, and impactful, and a household name in Ponyville.
But by saying that "despite everything she did, there is a big-city pony who never even heard her name" makes the world... colder? Yes. But also larger. It means that there could be dozens of other Granny Smiths out there, in other small towns, whose songs were never heard. It gives a small nudge in the direction that the world is full of great figures, but that the world is also so large that you will never hear about them.

That is why I would not mention Granny Smith from the mouth of a Manehattan character (unless he was from Ponyville, of course, or had a reason to know her).

That is also why Uncle Steppes runs a "Criminal Empire", but his "empire" is not connected to every crime that happens off screen. That is why Starlight Glimmer is still out there, doing something, and you have never even heard of her.

It makes the world colder, but bigger. And for this setting, I'd rather have size than warmth.

Still, that's just my two cents. No problem at all if you disagree! And again, love your writing!

...wait, are you saying that if the Wolf became active, he'd be the de-facto overlord of Edge and Winter, being able to stop anyone else from using them?

Like, potentially including Neighnia and Biedde (and Axe for her minor Edge)? They're NOT Hours, after all.

I admit I didn't consider the interpretation of "Hours could stop someone from accessing a lore" though. I thought it would require active changes to a Law to allow that (if it was even possible), so if anything it would take ALL the Hours of the same principle to stop a cultist from using that lore... and mortals are for the most part beneath the attention of hours, so I could only imagine that becoming a problem AFTER they become Long, if at any time.

But then again Long already suffered from the "swear to an Hour or you get killed (or go to Port Noon)", so they already have limitations in that sense. And actually the fact they're just killed (at least in CS, if they don't exile themselves) implies they can't just be stopped from practicing the Lores.

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So, this is the kind of conversation that can err into the "theological" within the lore of the quest. And I don't believe there is a right or wrong answer.

In fact, I prefer for it to be ambiguous (something that even canon CS does all the time) because that just makes it more interesting.

Because you see, I'm a big proponent of the idea that, in some cases, "Hours have no choice". In the sense that, if there was an "Hour of Fire", you could summon it by burning down a city. The Hour of Fire does not WANT to be summoned by you, but if you make a large enough fire "then there shall the Hour of Fire be".

On the other hand, Hours clearly have agendas, desires (so many of them) and they frequently clash against each other. So, I cannot fathom how certain operations of the Lores can exist without their consent. The kind of consent that can be gained either through favor, or through bargain.
Elixir Zeboim "could not exist without the consent of both the Flowermaker and the Elegiast". Iotic Essence states that "In the later operations of the Forge, the Madrugad yields to the true Forge of Days" and so on and so forth.

So, again, I believe that any practitioner (even in ancient eras) could perform the "lower" invocations of any Lore (provided they know how to do it, of course).

But for the really big stuff? To invoke the power that really mattered? That would require the practitioner to enter the realm of "actually invoking the Hours for this".

So, if Velvet existed in the distant past, would she be able to be "All-3"? I think so. But All-5? All-6 and beyond? I think that would start raising a lot of eyebrows, and the moment the Thunderskin took offense to Velvet's stillness there would be problems.
Nothing that really matters in this day and age, but it's fun to discuss this kind of thing.

oh, by the way side note @OurLadyOfWires you might want to consider watching hazbin hotel (and after that maybe even helluva boss).

the pilot for hazbin hotel is on youtube, the rest is on prime video.

it's, guess, a "for adult" animation cartoon show with lots of incredibly good musical numbers, set in hell, about the daughter of Lucifer wanting to redeem sinners to get them into heaven.

and the songs are actually BETTER than the best ones in my little pony in my opinion too.

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As it was mentioned by someone else-

"For the first time in our lives, we know that we are ready for this!"

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-way ahead of you

But I'm glad you're watching it! It's awesome, I agree.

Have not touched HH season two yet (wanna binge watch it, so I'm waiting for the entire season), but I have heard so many good things about the songs already.

I agree that it is a way better musical than MLP, absolutely.

...but I don't know if that included the detail of "he will reappear at some point". @OurLadyOfWires not sure whether that book would be good enough IC reason for Velvet to justify telling the Bureau to look into Sombra specifically?

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You have no IC reason to think about Sombra right now. Sorry.

Worry about your own doom clock

I hope you are all doing well!

 

[Pittauro]

Shugs shoulders.

Anyways how about we leave as "don't know" and don't make any certain claims about what's going on intill we get more information.

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Sure, just as soon as you stop saying crazy stuff like "harmony wishes for the death of Equestria" or"the wolf is actually a good thing".

Saying that the wolf can protect Equestria from the worms is like saying that you can use a dirty nuclear bomb to kill a pack of (normal) wolves.

Technically an option, but oh my hours it's so damned down on the options if ever consider taking...

At least we are agreed on how it is good and proper to take our Max Lantern and Edge Influences to annihilate the Hive of Tall Tale.

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I'm doing I more for the loot than to kill changelings. The fate of the changelings is actually REALLY really sad, even if they're hardly innocent.

 

[Sintonir]

So, if Velvet existed in the distant past, would she be able to be "All-3"? I think so. But All-5? All-6 and beyond? I think that would start raising a lot of eyebrows, and the moment the Thunderskin took offense to Velvet's stillness there would be problems.

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The Adept can get max level Lores in every Aspect, and use any ritual though. Sure, just Lore levels from CS aren't directly convertible to Lore levels in this quest, but nothing stops them from taking, for example, Heart physique advancement at the same time as Winter mind or soul.
The Librarian too, though in that case the status of the Librarian might offer some protection.

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

Spoiler: QM rambling

Not gonna lie, this plan name made me laugh.

Worry about your own doom clock

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Alas, but I am not the originator of that Plan or its name, the credit goes to @ses.

We are, that's why we are reading a book of madness and using an eldritch horror to gaslight the shit out of a terrible mom.

 

[Pittauro]

Have not touched HH season two yet (wanna binge watch it, so I'm waiting for the entire season), but I have heard so many good things about the songs already.

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@OurLadyOfWires

It's actually done. Last two episodes came out yesterday.

And damn there's some great songs. Of many different styles.

Prime video also has a Broadway live action spectacle with the actors singing live I'm watching right now

 

[ses]

There's also the fact that Velvet only has a single Sacrament lmao. And it isn't even her Branded one. Velvet actually isn't nearly as impressive as she used to be with how far behind the curve we've fallen in expected advancement. It's embarrassing how long we've been brick walled on SH Sacrament. We don't even have All-4 due to Heart being behind the curve!

Assuming we win the duel this turn, I'm curious if we want to spend Biedde actions on trying to hit Edge 6 before the end of the quest. While six turns of Biedde lessons is probably not something that we're ever going to do... it only takes a single level 7 book outside of the one we plan to feed to Baldomare for "4 Name AP and a book that probably gives a bonus trait on top" to be a viable spend of Name AP. Considering that we got multiple level 5 books from BTRC 2, and we're likely to start taking Expeditions more seriously... it's very possible that we'll be seeing more high level books that aren't custom-scried sacrifices to baldomare.

 

[OurLadyOfWires]

The Adept can get max level Lores in every Aspect, and use any ritual though. Sure, just Lore levels from CS aren't directly convertible to Lore levels in this quest, but nothing stops them from taking, for example, Heart physique advancement at the same time as Winter mind or soul.
The Librarian too, though in that case the status of the Librarian might offer some protection.

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Absolutely, and that is a great point.

However (and I think you agree with me as well) the "max Lore level" you get in the CS game is different from the "Lore level" we use in this quest.

In CS, you can have no Winter knowledge, and gain the "Wolf Word" by reading one book, right? And that is fine, and you can summon voiceless deads or cast End is Beautiful with Wolf Word and all that.

But in CS itself, knowing the Wolf Word does not make you a Long. And when you think about it, the "depth" of things you can do with Wolf Word is very limited. That is, partly, because the game itself is limited in what the players can and cant do (which is completely fine).
However, even if you "know the max Winter" lore, you still... aren't really powerful with Winter. You can't really do much with it.

Whereas in this quest, gaining Winter levels means actually going deeper into the Lore itself. You invoke the Lore to do little things all the time, and there are several narrative (and mechanical) changes that happen as you deepen yourself in the Lores.
And of course, in canon CS, when one ACTUALLY becomes more powerful in the Lores, real changes happen. One of them is Longhood ascension, and another is the Namehood new game+ scenario.

So yes, the Adept in CS can "max level" the Lores. But I think the difference here is in what "max level Lore" means. It has, I think, one meaning during a CS game run, and another meaning entirely within the lore of CS (and of this quest).

No comments in BoH because I haven't played it yet.

But again, not really an issue. Velvet lives in the present, so it is what it is.

Alas, but I am not the originator of that Plan or its name, the credit goes to @ses.

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Ah, in that canse thank you @ses!

@OurLadyOfWires

It's actually done. Last two episodes came out yesterday.

And damn there's some great songs. Of many different styles.

Prime video also has a Broadway live action spectacle with the actors singing live I'm watching right now

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For real? I thought it would have twelve episodes, so I was waiting for the next ones. Thank you for the news! I'll watch it soon then.

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

There's also the fact that Velvet only has a single Sacrament lmao. And it isn't even her Branded one. Velvet actually isn't nearly as impressive as she used to be with how far behind the curve we've fallen in expected advancement. It's embarrassing how long we've been brick walled on SH Sacrament. We don't even have All-4 due to Heart being behind the curve!

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CURSE YOU RUINED CHURCH!

I HEREBY VOW

YOU WILL RUE TAKING OUR SCRAPS

 

[Greymere]

Assuming we win the duel this turn, I'm curious if we want to spend Biedde actions on trying to hit Edge 6 before the end of the quest. While six turns of Biedde lessons is probably not something that we're ever going to do... it only takes a single level 7 book outside of the one we plan to feed to Baldomare for "4 Name AP and a book that probably gives a bonus trait on top" to be a viable spend of Name AP. Considering that we got multiple level 5 books from BTRC 2, and we're likely to start taking Expeditions more seriously... it's very possible that we'll be seeing more high level books that aren't custom-scried sacrifices to baldomare.

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We'd probably be better off sending him after Edge 5+ stuff for us to study. If we're at the point where we're contemplating scrying an Edge 7 thing just for scraps and not because we need it for something else, we should try and acquire an Edge 7/6 artifact weapon. Personal combat gear is a thing we can get, at least according to character creation,, for all that we've never bothered to acquire any.

 

[Pittauro]

For real? I thought it would have twelve episodes, so I was waiting for the next ones. Thank you for the news! I'll watch it soon then.

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Only 8 episodes sadly. I think I've heard they already confirmed S3 and 4, but it will take a while.

And damn, this season is BETTER than S1, and not just a little!

Vox gets so absurdly many great songs! Alastor is peak! Charlie and Vaggie are great, and get a super-peak song together... And I won't spoil anything else, just go and watch it

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

lores are ways of viewing a part of the GLORY, hours are the beings that make/are the lenses that make the lores what they are. Or put another way Lores are lesser accidents of the GLORY, not the GLORY directly.

That is why getting to the GLORY is a big deal your being enlightened directly from the source without outside influence. Able to make your own personal connection to the GLORY.

 

[Pittauro]

lores are ways of viewing a part of the GLORY, hours are the beings that make/are the lenses that make the lores what they are. Or put another way Lores are lesser accidents of the GLORY, not the GLORY directly.

That is why getting to the GLORY is a big deal your being enlightened directly from the source without outside influence. Able to make your own personal connection to the GLORY.

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mh... which makes me wonder if, once Velvet reaches Glory, she could just make up new lores. We DO know that lores not only change, but NEW ones are outright born at times. Forge in the modern days and what I think was called the Flint under the gods from Stone are not the same lore, after all.

You know, this makes me wonder if modern technology in CS setting is quite literally something that would not have worked in the past, because the Laws of the world wouldn't have allowed it. Which now reminds me a bit of some versions of World of Darkness where technology is just a technocrat (mage faction) scam basically. It functions because they convinced people that technology makes sense, because basically each human is inherently a reality manipulator but they just don't know about it (except for mages, which then have to fight against basically the collective unconscious will of humanity when using magic too obviously, as it goes against what people accept makes sense).

Then again, I still don't think becoming a Hour is as simple as going through the Tricuspid. It sounds too simple.

I mean, I think we all agree that the Glory is basically Ultimate Power. but even if you gave a mortal the perfect instructions on how to use ultimate power, they'd STILL have to use it.

Like, I wouldn't be surprised if, random example, for Velvet to change a Lore (assuming it was possible for her eventually) she first has to fully master it, reaching lvl 7. After all you need to understand what you want to change before changing it without messing up.

 

[DelightedOne]

Forge in the modern days and what I think was called the Flint under the gods from Stone are not the same lore, after all.

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They kind of are? Forge is Flint 2.0, just like Grail is whatever-The-Tide-had(probably Tide too) 2.0.

The Forge-of-Days eclipsed The Flint and The Red Grail drank The Tide.

You know, this makes me wonder if modern technology in CS setting is quite literally something that would not have worked in the past, because the Laws of the world wouldn't have allowed it. Which now reminds me a bit of some versions of World of Darkness where technology is just a technocrat (mage faction) scam basically. It functions because they convinced people that technology makes sense, because basically each human is inherently a reality manipulator but they just don't know about it (except for mages, which then have to fight against basically the collective unconscious will of humanity when using magic too obviously, as it goes against what people accept makes sense).

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You just described something I'm working on almost perfectly. Just funny how life works.

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

The second Forge ending is basically you changing the Forge into industry, or maybe maybe atomic. Even thou the worlds been in the Industrial Age for at least 2 centuries.

It less creating a new lore, and more changing the part of the Glory lore is looking at. Flint and forge are both still their, and existing in the Glory, but they don't offer anything the new lore doesn't do better in the modern world.

Passing the Tricuspid doesn't make you an hour in the game since the existing hours kick you out before you have spent enough time to fully enlighten yourself. Much like in Marvel the Infinity Gauntlet might grant absolute power but it takes time to expand ones awareness to fully utilize it.

 

[Greymere]

The second Forge ending is basically you changing the Forge into industry, or maybe maybe atomic. Even thou the worlds been in the Industrial Age for at least 2 centuries.

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You don't change Forge into anything, just ascend into one of her Names. Nuclear fission is already the domain of Forge.

 

[Pittauro]

You don't change Forge into anything, just ascend into one of her Names. Nuclear fission is already the domain of Forge.

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I mean, I'm not an expert but I could see Forge changing in Book of Hours. There's an ending that's supposedly about the coming of the "gods from steel", and while I know little about it just from the name it feels like the next "step" or generation of gods.

We had the Gods from Stone, basically the gods of the pre-historic world (and pre-humanity).

We had the Gods from Light, which to me feels like a metaphor for humanity becoming sapient and achieving reasoning.

We have the gods from Flesh and the Gods from Blood, which are borne from the conflict within humanity (either specific humans excelling, or the result of massive sacrifice and/or the birth of new concepts (grail's hedonism doesn't make much sense without humans to be hedonists, basically).

and finally we have the gods from steel, which just from the name seem to imply the change of the medieval world into a world of technology.

 

[DelightedOne]

and while I know little about it just from the name it feels like the next "step" or generation of gods.

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Considering how little there is about them, that is not surprising. All I have found is this:

Gods-from-Steel are artificial Hours made to substitute the older ones, they are made in foundries using a ridiculous amount of lore, Long and Names as workers and even Glory that flows directly from the Mansus.

Their creation also fullfils the prophecy of the Second Dawn, so there is a Sun involved there someway.

 

[Greymere]

I mean, I'm not an expert but I could see Forge changing in Book of Hours. There's an ending that's supposedly about the coming of the "gods from steel", and while I know little about it just from the name it feels like the next "step" or generation of gods.

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I mean, eventually yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if Forge got replaced with the advent of the gods-from-steel. But any Principle-shift isn't being caused by the Apostle Aestuant's ascension into a Name. The whole point of the Apostle ascensions is that they are performing their patron's enactments to draw their attention.

 

[Cochimetl]

[X] Plan: IM FROM PONYVILLE AND I SAY KILL EM ALL

 

[Pittauro]

I mean, eventually yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if Forge got replaced with the advent of the gods-from-steel. But any Principle-shift isn't being caused by the Apostle Aestuant's ascension into a Name. The whole point of the Apostle ascensions is that they are performing their patron's enactments to draw their attention.

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fair, though my initial comparison was more about the Forge replacing the Flint, or the Grail with the Tide.

 

[Shaper47]

Assuming we win the duel this turn, I'm curious if we want to spend Biedde actions on trying to hit Edge 6 before the end of the quest. While six turns of Biedde lessons is probably not something that we're ever going to do... it only takes a single level 7 book outside of the one we plan to feed to Baldomare for "4 Name AP and a book that probably gives a bonus trait on top" to be a viable spend of Name AP. Considering that we got multiple level 5 books from BTRC 2, and we're likely to start taking Expeditions more seriously... it's very possible that we'll be seeing more high level books that aren't custom-scried sacrifices to baldomare.

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I think it depends on if we go and loot Tall Tale and how willing we are to not pay him in bits .

Keep in mind even if we grab another corpse for a Risen from Tall Tale and have Filthy Rich cover our bases that only covers our ap needs.

I'm pretty sure we have at least three scrying rituals to pay for next turn, two expeditions and one reagent creation.

So we're either going to have him start bringing in the bits, letting him do religious stuff with uncle or have a payday we don't throw away so that we have the bits to do all the stuff we want to do.

 

[DelightedOne]

I'm pretty sure we have at least three scrying rituals to pay for next turn

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Why three? Did we plan some string of actions before the hiatus?

 

[des-pair-2]

I would love to do all the things the top Plans have, but alas, time doesn't bend to our will. For now.

[X] Plan: IM FROM PONYVILLE AND I SAY KILL EM ALL

[X] Plan: Goodbye Uncle Steppes

[X] Plan: The Blade and the Crimson Quill

Why three? Did we plan some string of actions before the hiatus?

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Here is the Plan that won during the Followers' Phase:

[X] Plan: Prisoner Chomping
-[x] (Free) Sell Edge 3 artifact
-[x] (Detectives) Follow Up: Dodge City
-[x] (Constables) Follow Up: Tall Tale
-[X] (Commissioner) Introduce Lore: Forge
-[x] (Director) Lantern
-[x] (Mareinette) Honored Guest: Spoiled Rich & Filthy Rich
-[x] (Biedde) Channel an Edge Influence
-[x] (Baldomare) Channel a Lantern Influence
-[x] (Selene) Soothe the night
-[x] (Rarity) Focus on her work
-[x] Perform the Reflection of the Tapestry x 2
--[x] Target: Easiest Level 7 book to acquire
--[X] Target: Easiest Forge 6 reagent to acquire
--[X] At Jade's old house
-[X] Acquire a prisoner, preferably not an innocent civilian
-[X] Build a prison
-[X] Obtain a dead body
-[X] Perform the Attention of the Laws (Edge) (x2)
-[X] Cover your bases (-2 Follower AP, +1 Velvet AP)

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[Shaper47]

Why three? Did we plan some string of actions before the hiatus?

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I think we wanted Moth 6 to hide from Celestia and so have more time before the ending.

So scry at least three level 5 moth books turn 23. Go on expeditions for the moth books and scry for the rest of the moth books turn 24. Go on expeditions for the last of the moth books turn 25. Get a max lantern influence and read all the moth books to reach level 6 Moth turn 26.