Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

[DelightedOne]

At this rate, all Velvet's going to end up doing next turn is RotTs and working on the SH Sacrament.

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Umm, now there is the problem of risking it by calling an influence ourselves or using a Baldomare action to get that +40, either way that is -2 actions(or 3)from Velvet if we want to rush or not waste it if we go with the second option.

I also just started to think about how happy the Angry Sunhorse is going to be when she notices we are Sacramented.

I don't suppose we can explain our lore levels by using Selene's lessons as an excuse?

 

[spiderhellian]

I also just started to think about how happy the Angry Sunhorse is going to be when she notices we are Sacramented

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This is why we get our Moth sacrament too!

 

[Iustus Vitea]

The first one is, as mentioned before, putting lore books in the Canterlot Cave expedition site after we take everything of value from it, and then we pretend we're a genius at it and share them with our agents.

Second is to make the Bureau personally loyal to us enough (and ideally Celestia shows herself as more unstable to make it more palatable) that we at some point judge introducing Luna, and have her reveal that her sister is prey of a similar problem as she was when she became Nightmare Moon, and that's why she has not yet revealed herself, and that she needs the help of the Bureau in saving her, and we have her vouch for the lore powers.

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The first I don't see happening in any reasonable time frame or an acceptable threshold of risk. The second we could do, hell I count on us doing some variant of it while we take down Celestia, it's just that this doesn't solve the fundamental issue that if Celestia discovers we knew the Lores beforehand we are fucked.

Oh sure if we sat on our laurels and used the Bureau to launder the Lores at that point it'd work but then why do that when we can take Daybreaker off the board and do this in the open with Celestia's sanction.

(basically rape, though she'd never knew about it unless we or the Master told her)

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Cadance "rape"

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Rape is still rape, stop saying this shit as if it makes it more palatable or acceptable. As if it would have changed what we could have let happen.

I regret the waste of the Paranoia RA too but I will never regret the Cadance one.

 

[Venerable Ro]

Well, IF we can eventually remove the stains, purify the Wolves or something like that, it might still be worth it... but seriously

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Velvet to the Wolf; "I'm leaving, and I'm taking the kids with me!"


Other than that, vibes man. It's never worth it. (Though honestly none of the choices in That Vote were worth it, hence my abstaining.)That's why I'm so down on the whole "Send Ash after Copper/Windy/Anyone" thing, it ain't gonna end neatly or happily and I don't know why people would think otherwise.

 

[Iustus Vitea]

Other than that, vibes man. It's never worth it. That's why I'm so down on the whole "Send Ash after Copper/Windy/Anyone" thing, it ain't gonna end neatly or happily and I don't know why people would think otherwise.

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I'm not opposed to ending things with either of them, I'm opposed to ending things with Windy without knowing.

Copper is fine, hell I'm voting for it.

 

[Greymere]

The Lores only change when an Hour rises, or rather it would be better to say the Lores only change when an Hour does/bides it so because the Lores are Glory light refracted by the Hours. Doing anything before that is public relations work that'll quickly become unneeded.

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It's more specific than that, even. The only confirmed/strongly implied examples we have of a Lore changing in canon SH-verse is when a principal Hour is directly usurped. The Forge shattered the Flint, the Grail drank the Tide, and the Moth stole the skin of the Wheel.

 

[Venerable Ro]

It's more specific than that, even. The only confirmed/strongly implied examples we have of a Lore changing in canon SH-verse is when a principal Hour is directly usurped. The Forge shattered the Flint, the Grail drank the Tide, and the Moth stole the skin of the Wheel.

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Yeah I hopped through some very specific hoops with my omake, had to do the thing right or it wouldn't suit.

 

[BunnyLord]

...side note, I'm still really sad about Starry Sky. We played a good game thus far, but we definitely made our share of mistakes.

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Spike and Twilight as well, for sure. I feel awful about how both of their situations went, we're treading an unfortunate path.

All of the above to basically say that I fully and completely regret each of the (two) regrettable actions we actually took, and I'll be even more against it next time we're offered the option.

First time was fine. It was that or death.

Soft was fine. A seed planted is not a tree grown. She's the potential for bad stuff, but not bad yet.

Paranoia and Ashes? They're our greatest mistakes thus far, and while we've made up for one of our other ones (having taken part in Luna's mental torture) by nurturing her back to health and sanity, I'm not sure we'll ever be able to make up for our two biggest

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I think with the knowledge we had at the time, and with the likehood of us choosing to go out of our way to find two different ponies that we were willing to kill and then actually going through with it, breaking the door was the smart choice. Not a good choice, because neither option was, but it's the one we took. I can't say that I regret it, but I wish there had been a kinder option.

Ashes? I can't truly recall how I voted by now, but again, all of the options hurt and Bird is a monster. I think I voted to have the Master brought into this world, with the idea that it was the option that helped us get closest to Glory without doing something we'd regret, and gave us more time to work with. I think it would be silly not to use what we've been given, though. Copper has tried to kill us, and hamstringing her progress should hopefully give us a bit of breathing room to pursue Discord. As long as it doesn't make her turn her attention away from the Mansus and start lashing out in the Wake more as a result, I suppose.

 

[Pittauro]

The first I don't see happening in any reasonable time frame or an acceptable threshold of risk. The second we could do, hell I count on us doing some variant of it while we take down Celestia, it's just that this doesn't solve the fundamental issue that if Celestia discovers we knew the Lores beforehand we are fucked.

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Eh, AFTER she stops being Daybreaker AND with Luna on our side I could see that being enough to earn forgiveness.

Discord and Starlight Glimmer got away with FAR worse in canon, and by that point we'd have a Luna vouching for us AND we'd have proved our worth.

On the other hand knowing about Daybreaker fully explains why coming clean was always going to be suicide.

Rape is still rape, stop saying this shit as if it makes it more palatable or acceptable. As if it would have changed what we could have let happen.

I regret the waste of the Paranoia RA too but I will never regret the Cadance one.

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I don't know about more palatable or acceptable, but it DOES make it different. If Cadance never knew, she'd never feel negative emotions due to it. That makes it different, and potentially a lesser evil than if she knew depending on how you judge the morality of an action (is it the action itself/the means? The suffering it causes? The end result?)

And the main thing I'm saying is that, YES, I'm thinking that even that is not as bad as a regrettable action. Though I don't know if I'd vote for than now. I've been extremely hesitant between Regrettable Action and allowing the master to do the thing, and I'm still not sure about what was the best choice as they were BOTH horrible choices.

Velvet to the Wolf; "I'm leaving, and I'm taking the kids with me!"


Other than that, vibes man. It's never worth it. (Though honestly none of the choices in That Vote were worth it, hence my abstaining.)That's why I'm so down on the whole "Send Ash after Copper/Windy/Anyone" thing, it ain't gonna end neatly or happily and I don't know why people would think otherwise.

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Yeah, with the exception of Soft (seed not grown) and maaaaybe the first one (and mostly because it would have been game over otherwise and we didn't get to choose), the more we see the consequences of those actions, the more I realize they were not worth it.

Maybe the best pick would have been open war? Shining would have died though... As you said, we LITERALLY had only bad choices,mostly differing in WHO would suffer from them.

And we picked the one where everyone BUT us and our close ones suffered. The most suffering spread around, but the least falling on us.

In a way, we picked the most selfish option. Only partially mitigated by how only cultists and "inventors" will suffer from it, but we didn't know that at the time, and that still has some horrible long term potential consequences.

It's more specific than that, even. The only confirmed/strongly implied examples we have of a Lore changing in canon SH-verse is when a principal Hour is directly usurped. The Forge shattered the Flint, the Grail drank the Tide, and the Moth stole the skin of the Wheel.

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I have to wonder what Edge was like before the Colonel, the Lionsmith, and the Wolf Divided, when nowadays they represent the three main aspects of Edge (Violence, cunning and agony)

Spike and Twilight as well, for sure. I feel awful about how both of their situations went, we're treading an unfortunate path.

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They, Starry, Copper and Windy.

Luna was in there too, but she has now mostly recovered, so we fixed ONE of our mistakes.

Of course there's also the nameless guards we sent to their deaths because we kept Luna's position a secret, and then everyone suffering from EVIL, PARANOIA and ASHES.

Or everyone left to die to the Windigoes in the changeling hive.

If we had painted Twilight as a potential recruit, maybe we could have spared her the suffering... Live and learn.

I think with the knowledge we had at the time, and with the likehood of us choosing to go out of our way to find two different ponies that we were willing to kill and then actually going through with it, breaking the door was the smart choice. Not a good choice, because neither option was, but it's the one we took. I can't say that I regret it, but I wish there had been a kinder option.

Ashes? I can't truly recall how I voted by now, but again, all of the options hurt and Bird is a monster. I think I voted to have the Master brought into this world, with the idea that it was the option that helped us get closest to Glory without doing something we'd regret, and gave us more time to work with. I think it would be silly not to use what we've been given, though. Copper has tried to kill us, and hamstringing her progress should hopefully give us a bit of breathing room to pursue Discord. As long as it doesn't make her turn her attention away from the Mansus and start lashing out in the Wake more as a result, I suppose

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WITHOUT doing something we'd regret, you say?! There was no option we wouldn't regret there XD.

For door, I remember voting to destroy it, exactly because I didn't think we could afford the time to do it the other way.

In hindsight, I'd probably change my vote there. The extra time lost would be worth one fewer wolf son around.

I still can't quite decide with Cadance and Ashes.

 

[DelightedOne]

Eh, AFTER she stops being Daybreaker AND with Luna on our side I could see that being enough to earn forgiveness.

Discord and Starlight Glimmer got away with FAR worse in canon, and by that point we'd have a Luna vouching for us AND we'd have proved our worth.

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She isn't Daybreaker yet. And don't forget Cadance, if we don't have her as a Confidante after all of this I propose we riot.

Starlight's only bad thing that stuck was the whole "stealing cutie marks by making a cult" thing(now I'm scared of her finding out about the lores, great), the time travel didn't have any long term effects aside fron fucking up the Map for a while.

Discord was definitely the one that surprised me the most and if she can forgive him, Velvet who actively tries to make amends, healed Luna in the best way possible for her, is working for Celestia with the most loyalty she ever had while being involved in Daybreaker's defeat and regrets all she is done... we are safe as long as she recovers properly like her sister.

 

[Iustus Vitea]

It's more specific than that, even. The only confirmed/strongly implied examples we have of a Lore changing in canon SH-verse is when a principal Hour is directly usurped. The Forge shattered the Flint, the Grail drank the Tide, and the Moth stole the skin of the Wheel.

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Those are the practically confirmed bits yes but there's evidence for the rise of a new Hour changing the Lore too even if it doesn't usurp it. Stuff like how the Edge Long and Names have been warped fundamentally when the Lionsmith arose or how the highest degree of Lore are the, presumably, collaborative secret doctrines of the Hours. Even if they aren't collaborative that doesn't change the fact that the Hours have their own doctrines that almost definitely didn't exist before them.

Eh, AFTER she stops being Daybreaker AND with Luna on our side I could see that being enough to earn forgiveness.

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It is, I was just saying only the Bureau knowing the Lores doesn't solve the issue. What we need is for the Lores to be introduced to Celestia and have her sanction their use for us and then to rise quickly but not too quickly.

I don't know about more palatable or acceptable, but it DOES make it different. If Cadance never knew, she'd never feel negative emotions due to it. That makes it different, and potentially a lesser evil than if she knew depending on how you judge the morality of an action (is it the action itself/the means? The suffering it causes? The end result?)

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Right seems I should clarify, I'm saying DON'T try and mental gymnastics your way into saying it wasn't rape or it was fine because Candace wouldn't know or any of that shit. The choice was greater good or our friend that's it don't go dressing it up to make it more palatable because that is what you're doing.

 

[Venerable Ro]

The Cadance RA was the capstone of a whole series of poor decisions that can essentially be summed up as two brilliant idiots [MOTH!]-ing at each other instead of actually communicating. We didn't know what the hell the Master was doing, the Master didn't know what the hell we were doing, both of us all collectively shrugged and said "stuff!" and went on our merry Mothy way. In the end we ran smack into our immense personal and moral differences that we had no real idea of until it blew up in both of our faces.

Oh and don't forget trading Baldomare for an Apple that we didn't even manage to understand until The Wolf illuminated the situation.

RAs happen when we either decide to open doors with a prybar and 20-pound sledge instead of understanding the situation, or we refuse to even look inside a wide open door because reasons.

 

[BunnyLord]

WITHOUT doing something we'd regret, you say?! There was no option we wouldn't regret there XD.

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Reads badly when I couldn't find the post with all the colour codes and gave up trying, I intended to imply without doing a regrettable action. Everything there was regrettable, without being the big RA.

I think that if I trusted that we'd have got past the door with any actual speed then I'd have changed my vote, but we won't really know how much time we had until we actually get to the Glory. Copper being more on our level due to us slowing down would make this eldritch war more dangerous, but I think overall it'd have just been a different situation.

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

This vote is about how he treats people actively entering the Mansus. No randos, but active lore empowered threats.

 

[Solace2117]

I wasn't there for the door vote, but it's hard to be too judgmental. I mostly skimmed all the early discussions, but I don't think everyone fully realized how bad it would be and the time constraints argument had some merit. I regret what happed to Starry, but don't personally regret the Master vote. It's more the actions we didn't take to bring her to Velvet's side sooner. Twilight and Spike are tragic, but Velvet was also wounded before the raid, which was I think the ultimate reason she didn't go.
At the end of the day this quest is hard. Velvet is a lone pony going up against eldritch forces she barely understands. Doesn't mean we can't achieve a good ending, but it does mean no matter what we pick there'll be things we wish we had done differently.

 

[Pittauro]

Starlight's only bad thing that stuck was the whole "stealing cutie marks by making a cult" thing(now I'm scared of her finding out about the lores, great), the time travel didn't have any long term effects aside fron fucking up the Map for a while.

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Time travel "didn't stick", but she effectively NEARLY destroyed the world for revenge. I actually wonder if Twilight ever told the sisters...

It is, I was just saying only the Bureau knowing the Lores doesn't solve the issue. What we need is for the Lores to be introduced to Celestia and have her sanction their use for us and then to rise quickly but not too quickly.

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Bureau knowing is not the same as Celestia knowing, and Celestia knowing is not the same as "she knows we know too much to be believable".

Even Velvet being a genius at this esoteric branch of magic does not mean Celestia understands what we're keeping secret. Even if she got to Lantern 4 (which would take time, presumably) we still have Moth 4, and could even go for Moth 5.

And that's if we haven't solved the problem one way or another.


Worst case, introducing the lores to the bureau MIGHT start a countdown to Celestia realizing our secrets, but it's possible we could just deal with the Daybreaker problem before that becomes an actual threat.

We don't even know how long it would be between "Bureau finds the lores" to "Celestia decides to learn them too". And if the Bright Library doesn't include Lantern 4 books, then she can't exactly learn on her own anyway. We could sabotage her learning just by holding back on that.

Right seems I should clarify, I'm saying DON'T try and mental gymnastics your way into saying it wasn't rape or it was fine because Candace wouldn't know or any of that shit. The choice was greater good or our friend that's it don't go dressing it up to make it more palatable because that is what you're doing.

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I stand by what I said: rape is rape, but a rape where the victim doesn't suffer or is aware of what happens is "different", at least in some way.

You can't feel pain and suffering at what you don't know. You don't gain trauma from it. It's still disgusting, still evil and wrong, but in terms of consequences it's a lesser evil (and I'm mostly judging it based on that. There's many possible moral and ethical systems you could use to judge, and none is really perfect)

Not good. DEFINITELY not good. But different.

It was rape, and it wasn't fine, but just like not all deaths and murders are equal, logically not all rapes are equal either. And, as you also say, ALL OUR CHOICES SUCKED.

Either shining died and we started an occult war with a demigod, or Cadance got raped, or we did something regrettable, or we sacrificed Velvet... I forget if there was another option.

It's not even the darkest thing we allowed to happen. Starry's death was far worse than what could have happened to Cadance, same for that earth pony Comet rescued from an abuser who was sacrificed to summon a windigo, she hit dread 3 and presumably died a death only second in its tragedy to what happened to Starry Sky, the mare who lost it all just as she thought her life had taken a turn for the better... And due to the actions of what she thought was her friend, and probably the pony who was the kindest to her, not counting the Fatherly Woods...

So, I suppose what I'm saying is that we were the direct and indirect cause of a lot of bad stuff, and I don't think Cadance's potential fate was the worst, or even I'm the top 5 worse, in terms of suffering it would have caused.

Then again, I'm not considering the potential good Flurry Heart is likely to do in her life,as compared to a child Alicorn Master...

 

[spiderhellian]

I don't think we need to relitigate the Master vote.

(Especially when it's so much better to relitigate the wedding vote! If only, if only the Names… )

This vote is about how he treats people actively entering the Mansus. No randos, but active lore empowered threats.

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Yeah, this is like… basically just cultists? The Manaus isn't a place you just stumble into. It hadn't been reached at all for an era before Jade.

 

[Starlit Horizon]

[X] [PRIDE] You will tell him a little bit, but also that he should ask her the rest himself. (Reveal to Pride what action Axe will take this turn only)
[X] [ASH-GUARD] Stalk.
[X] [ASH-PREY] Copper Secateur

 

[Pittauro]

Twilight and Spike are tragic, but Velvet was also wounded before the raid, which was I think the ultimate reason she didn't go.

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That was part of it.

Another part is that Velvet would have had to leave, without warning, for days or weeks, and we were worried about how to explain it both to Stormchaser and Silky, and to the guards.

The reward from the Master was, all things considered, not that big of a factor in our choice

I wasn't there for the door vote, but it's hard to be too judgmental. I mostly skimmed all the early discussions, but I don't think everyone fully realized how bad it would be and the time constraints argument had some merit

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Some people argued that morally killing two people would be less evil, that destroying the tribal door was a net good.

That was OBVIOUSLY nonsense even to start with, and became even more obviously nonsense in hindsight.

I voted for the destruction because it would be easier to keep secret from Stormchaser, because even if we told him it kind of sounds less bad than being a murderer (for someone who doesn't truly understand regrettable actions and the Wolf), and for the convenience.

I assumed it would take at least 1 AP to find acceptable victims, one to plan their murder, and one to kill them in a safe way.

Potentially more.

I was also afraid the thread would hesitate, delay, maybe try to find a third way EVEN as we were told a third way didn't exist. And of course I was also worried at comet surpassing us, as she'd have likely not hesitated at all.

And yeah, I wasn't sure we could afford the 3 to 5 APs I estimated it taking.

Yeah, this is like… basically just cultists? The Manaus isn't a place you just stumble into. It hadn't been reached at all for an era before Jade.

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Eh, technically you can stumble into it.

It's just very unlikely, and if you don't know it's unlikely to happen again, and you'd dismiss the first visit as a weird dream.

A pony might dream of the Mansus after cutting their mane, maybe. Or after sleeping in a white room an house painter falling asleep on the job for example)

There's probably other methods.

But if you don't KNOW how you got there, you're unlikely to repeat the same method a second time after using it accidentally the first time.

And lore knowledge is far less common in the modern equestrian age, for multiple reasons

 

[Solace2117]

That was part of it.

Another part is that Velvet would have had to leave, without warning, for days or weeks, and we were worried about how to explain it both to Stormchaser and Silky, and to the guards.

The reward from the Master was, all things considered, not that big of a factor in our choice

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I don't know that the reward played into it much. I may be wrong, cause I wasn't active then, but I do think if Velvet hadn't been hurt the thread would have been willing to risk all the other stuff to try and mitigate the damages and help Twilight.

Also to the vote, I'm just not that worried about some random cultist. Doesn't mean they can't be a threat, doesn't mean someone else won't pop up, but realistically I don't think any of the options are going to slow down Velvet's real rivals. I prefer the narrative implications of Stalk as far as the Manse as a whole goes.

 

[angelsadvocate666]

Getting to the Ash isn't just about getting to the Dream. You also have to find your way through the Crossroads. Which is perhaps the easiest challenge in the Mansus, but if I recall correctly, even Rarity was having difficulty for a month or two. It takes at least a bit of dedicated effort or knowledge.

It's more specific than that, even. The only confirmed/strongly implied examples we have of a Lore changing in canon SH-verse is when a principal Hour is directly usurped. The Forge shattered the Flint, the Grail drank the Tide, and the Moth stole the skin of the Wheel.

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Also the Colonel and Mother of Ants killing the Seven-coils IIRC.

 

[Iustus Vitea]

-snip

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Are you forgetting the Lantern 6 artefact? Or the literal kingdom's worth of manpower she can leverage. Who knows what books and other artefacts she has stored away? Sure she might not have the benefits of the Master or Velvet but she can move freely, throw considerably more resources at any given problem and is very fucking competent. To assume us fucking up won't lead her to us faster then we can deal with Daybreaker is folly. Why let the worst happen? Let's just deal with Daybreaker as quickly as possible and side step the issue.

Also, I don't know why the thread didn't seriously consider just asking the Cult for 2 irredeemable ponies as sacrifices. Sure it'd mean the cult would have more evidence to levy against us but that's not really that much of a concern? Or at least the kind of problem two murders would cause are hilariously small compared to everything else.

 

[AuthorTransient]

Honestly, Ash's actions sound very literal. If the names were changed a bit, like:

• Feast! Gnaw
• Stalk. Hunt
• Starve... Fester

Then it might be a little more palatable to pick Gnaw. Unfortunately for us, the punctuation of '!', '.', and '...' for each respective action is very ominous narratively. Mechanically I would choose Feast - narratively, Stalk. In the end, I'm going to aim practicality and vote for Feast.

Also, I hope the [PRIDE] vote isn't another repeat of us trying to do the right thing - but with unlikely yet plausible consequences, as with Twilight Sparkle.

Lastly, I'm actually inclined towards no prey for the [ASH-PREY] action. Other questers have already expounded on the several justifications about not using the Wolf on Copper, and personally I feel that hunting Windy would instead give him more capability to use the Wolf (presumably for an upcoming Calamity) - but also because I don't actually think any of our surviving enemies have really earned our focused hate by aiming at our family and allies. The Will of the Woods did, but, well. We all know what happened to cause Ash.

[X] [PRIDE] You will tell him a little bit, but also that he should ask her the rest himself. (Reveal to Pride what action Axe will take this turn only)
[X] [ASH-GUARD] Feast!
[X] [ASH-PREY] No prey

 

[Pittauro]

Are you forgetting the Lantern 6 artefact? Or the literal kingdom's worth of manpower she can leverage. Who knows what books and other artefacts she has stored away? Sure she might not have the benefits of the Master or Velvet but she can move freely, throw considerably more resources at any given problem and is very fucking competent. To assume us fucking up won't lead her to us faster then we can deal with Daybreaker is folly. Why let the worst happen? Let's just deal with Daybreaker as quickly as possible and side step the issue.

Also, I don't know why the thread didn't seriously consider just asking the Cult for 2 irredeemable ponies as sacrifices. Sure it'd mean the cult would have more evidence to levy against us but that's not really that much of a concern? Or at least the kind of problem two murders would cause are hilariously small compared to everything else.

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Good point about the mirror, though we don't know if it would help her. She can't use the Knowledge bonus for Application actions, she doesn't know the scrying ritual (which is the only NOT OBVIOUS ritual we know, as we made it with Jade... well, Jade did most of it admittedly).

and she doesn't necessarily have something to direct that manpower at that would result in them finding US.

So, still risky, but it still requires her to both actually learn Lantern, surpass our Moth, actually have to actively consider us (it's not a passive "Lantern 4 = she knows"), or understanding how to use the Mirror IF the Mirror has an effect that can help her finding us (which it admittedly might. For all we know it has a divination-like effect. I imagine if it was used in a scrying ritual it would basically narratively work as showing what we want to know on its surface).

as for not asking the cult, I THINK it was because we didn't believe they'd pick someone we were fine killing. As in, they would just take the first defenseless valueless sacrifice.

It was, in hindsight, probably a bad move. It might have been as easy as asking Comet if he could get two criminals the world would be better without. It WAS kind of his job...

and it's not like he wouldn't have been able to find such. He found that one wife-beater, after all.

Then it might be a little more palatable to pick Gnaw. Unfortunately for us, the punctuation of '!', '.', and '...' for each respective action is very ominous narratively. Mechanically I would choose Feast - narratively, Stalk. In the end, I'm going to aim practicality and vote for Feast.

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I think that not sending the Wolf against Copper should be kept for if we're actually trying to talk, OR if we're going to kill her /kidnap her soon.

...which, admittedly, we might. If we get Biedde, sending him and/or Baldomare and/or Axe... or even Mareinette... there's many ways we could get her.

And then we could potentially use her for Lantern or Grail, or maybe "gift her" to Mareinette.

or maybe, just maybe, Force her to give up in a way that doesn't force us to kill her. But that sounds extremely unlikely.

...We could even give her to Selene. Let HER decide Copper's fate.

She forgave us, but she might have opinions on what should happen to Copper.

good point on "FEAST!" vs Stalk. I might actually change my vote to Stalk.

 

[Gyldir]

And then we could potentially use her for Lantern or Grail, or maybe "gift her" to Mareinette.

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For Lantern we'd need 4 scraps of Lantern.

 

[Greymere]

or maybe "gift her" to Mareinette.

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Absolutely not, wtf Pitt?

 

[Iustus Vitea]

or maybe "gift her" to Mareinette.

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The rape arguing before and now this, holy shit you are way too cavalier about this stuff. You do know what Marinette is liable to do to her yeah? And you still want to give Copper to her? Just use her for the Lantern Sacrament if you're that hell bent on giving Copper a fate worse then death.

Or better yet give her a clean and merciful end.

 

[DelightedOne]

Wondering about Harmony again, this time it is about its origins.

I know the theories floating around say Harmony was made by/of the Hours but... It doesn't feel like it is. What if the Hours and gods have nothing to do with Harmony?

The first thing that comes to mind that supports this idea is Harmony not having a real presence in the Mansus, sure the Dreamland are trying to subvert the Mansus but why would it need to do that if it comes from an Hour? Shouldn't it know how to climb or get in by other means?

The second is that the lores were not immediately forgotten, that took time. When cultists and Mansus creatures were recovering from the Forge's newest crime what were the other Hours doing? It would make sense for them to do whatever they wanted if some survived but it almost seems like they were erased.

That makes me think: What if they were? What happens in the Mansus happens in a similar way in the Wake so when the Forge made Glory become unreacheable ponies decided to abandon the Mansus, Hours and the Lores. If ponies can curse themselves with their own gods, why not get rid of them too, the World belongs to ponykind after all.

Without the Hours and with the Mansus damaged the Wake would be broken too, ponykind would have to learn how to survive in a world that wasn't made to work without gods... so they made their own. From their wishes, hopes and dreams came a bright light(a kind one, kinder than any Sun) that would help the world heal and care for it. The Pillars planting the Seed that would grow into the Tree of Harmony fits that.

But due to its unorthodox creation it took a long time for Harmony to act properly in the Wake, that is why ponies had to move the sun and the moon, change the seasons, control the weather and basically maintain everything in the world alone. Celestia and Luna most likely only move the sun and the moon because the unicorns that did it literally lost their magic compared to the earth ponies and pegasi who did not suffer that much.

I'm not sure if there wasn't any use of the lores at Harmony's birth but it definitely doesn't use them, maybe because it was made to substitute the old order of the world? But i'm pretty sure it knows about them at least, even if it can't/won't use them.

 

[Greymere]

a kind one, kinder than any Sun

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Hey, don't do the Egg Unhatching dirty like that! It was the SiS who decided that the Sun should be unmerciful

 

[Nevermort]

I don't know that the reward played into it much. I may be wrong, cause I wasn't active then, but I do think if Velvet hadn't been hurt the thread would have been willing to risk all the other stuff to try and mitigate the damages and help Twilight.

Also to the vote, I'm just not that worried about some random cultist. Doesn't mean they can't be a threat, doesn't mean someone else won't pop up, but realistically I don't think any of the options are going to slow down Velvet's real rivals. I prefer the narrative implications of Stalk as far as the Manse as a whole goes.

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At the time Velvet Hill forbid Velvet from leaving Ponyville due to her involvement in scandal in Canterlot, so it all is his fault. He could have withheld our BITS!
Plus part of the Master's reward was unknown at the time and black boxes are always tempting.
And giving it to Baldomare would have allowed her to stay, if we did not ended up needing Moth scraps to safely teach Selene.

I still can't quite decide with Cadance and Ashes.

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I still stand by my vote that it was better to let Master possess us. Just think how ruthlessly efficient Velvet would have been. And getting her family killed would have been a game over so they would be relatively safe from Master, likely used as leverage to have Velvet do what Master wish. In most others matters Master would need to play Velvet's role ,i.e. act as she would have acted and periodically sacrificing a pony or two for ritual is not much worse than creating Ash Wastes.

good point on "FEAST!" vs Stalk. I might actually change my vote to Stalk.

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Interestingly I am thinking of doing opposite with my own vote.
What I come up with is that ponies getting injured in their sleep is potentially noticeable and can end up being a trouble for us. If such reports reach Velvet's desk then not a big problem, a way to find not aligned cultists, Yay.
On the other hand if Celestia learn about it , she would immediately grow concerned about issues in Luna's realm. It may even be something related to Luna disappearance after all. Celestia trying to break into Dream realm would definitely speed up her discovering Lores. Although Sun Horse vs Ashen Wastes is a match that I would have watched. From the maximum distance of course.
But another problem is that it may be something than Luna may become interested too, since protection of sleeping ponies is her responsibility. Feast is something that she would overlook in favor of dealing with lesser worms, but ponies getting injured is something that she may want to fix.

I think that not sending the Wolf against Copper should be kept for if we're actually trying to talk, OR if we're going to kill her /kidnap her soon.

...which, admittedly, we might. If we get Biedde, sending him and/or Baldomare and/or Axe... or even Mareinette... there's many ways we could get her.

And then we could potentially use her for Lantern or Grail, or maybe "gift her" to Mareinette.

or maybe, just maybe, Force her to give up in a way that doesn't force us to kill her. But that sounds extremely unlikely.

...We could even give her to Selene. Let HER decide Copper's fate.

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Worst case scenario with sending Wolf after Copper would be if she is already prepared/ getting ready to prepare failsafe to protect herself from getting killed by Velvet. Like summoning Windigo and making sure that they are released in case of her death. Or getting manuscripts ready to send to authorities in the same case. Then she gets killed before she can even give warning to Velvet
Which is admittedly far from guarantee, but still killing Copper is not a risk free action.