Just a Phase [Worm]

[Evilreadermaximum]

If they find a rule that doesn't allow a potentially dangerous parahuman to mix with others if they aren't sure that their abilities don't pose an inadvertent risk, for example emitting ionising radiation. They still couldn't force her to get tested, but they could make her take her lessons from a tutor via computer link.

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....that feels like it would fail hilariously as a threat, Taylor both understandably hates school and is very much an introvert, so she'd probably be quite happy with that arrangement.

 

[KingCrimson1081]

So is there anyway the PRT could convince Taylor to go in for power testing besides arresting Sophia and Emma or have they already burned all their bridges with her.

 

[Prince Charon]

So is there anyway the PRT could convince Taylor to go in for power testing besides arresting Sophia and Emma or have they already burned all their bridges with her.

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Probably 'already burned,' but it's plausible that the bridges are only 'currently on fire,' instead.

 

[BF110C4]

So is there anyway the PRT could convince Taylor to go in for power testing besides arresting Sophia and Emma or have they already burned all their bridges with her.

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The problem is that Power Testing is directly linked with the ability of the Protectorate to force her to do Wards activity which is the single reason why she won't summit to testing. The only carrot juicy enough to get power testing she might accept is a rock solid way out of the Wards which incidentally is the one red line the Protectorate/PRT cannot affort since they fear that a Breaker capable of going through any physical security and is inmune to directed Thinker powers who happens to hate them is too much of a risk when outside their control, even if she is a law abbiding citizen.

 

[KingCrimson1081]

The problem is that Power Testing is directly linked with the ability of the Protectorate to force her to do Wards activity which is the single reason why she won't summit to testing. The only carrot juicy enough to get power testing she might accept is a rock solid way out of the Wards which incidentally is the one red line the Protectorate/PRT cannot affort since they fear that a Breaker capable of going through any physical security and is inmune to directed Thinker powers who happens to hate them is too much of a risk when outside their control, even if she is a law abbiding citizen.

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Yeah at least with Shadow Stalker they can put an electric collar on her or track her with thinker powers but they have absolutely no way to stop or track Taylor if she decides to go rogue hence the whole tip toeing around her. There would probably be less push from above to get her into power test if there was a known limit to her phasing but as it stands they have to assume that she can move through any material without issue, which brings up an interesting question on whether or not Taylor can phase through Endbringers.

 

[BF110C4]

Maybe, maybe not but before the Protectorate even considers trying that in the field they need to know a few additional details such as if her phasing tinkertech would damage or detonate a device, how long she can keep her powers active, if she can use her powers inside a NBC protective gear with oxygen tanks, if she can phase others, etc.

Without a definitive answer to those questions there is no reason to even try, since getting anywhere close to Endbringers without a Brute rating capable of withstanding their ability to drown you, fill the area with radiation, or simply drop a large enough building in top of you and wait until the air runs out is suicide. Not to mention that a passive ability like phasing needs a way of doing damage beyond what even conventional explosives can do, which is either a tinkertech explosive or working with a parahuman who can hurt him, but to actually plan on that the heroes do need at least some testing beyond what Taylor herself can do on her own.

 

[KingCrimson1081]

Speaking of Endbringers has the Canberra battle happened yet because if not that is something that could be brought up in upcoming chapters.

 

[Qaw]

Speaking of Endbringers has the Canberra battle happened yet because if not that is something that could be brought up in upcoming chapters.

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I don't believe so, but it also doesn't seem like something that would be a big deal in this story. Noncompliant!Taylor stays home[PRT] in her room. ObedientWard!Taylor also stays home but in the wards lobby. Vigilante!Taylor stays home and watches the news.
There's no story here beyond 'And then this happened and I missed a day of school.'

Weld and Hunch might go out and help against Simurgh/Aftermath, but this isn't something that affects our protagonist.


@SlickRCBD I previously asked for some case law for one of your statements.

Can you send me the case law for this?
I've already made it clear everything I think of this argument, but I remember researching this before concerning the real world, and I forgot to bookmark the results.

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I assume you missed it the first time, but I'd appreciate the research material.

 

[KingCrimson1081]

Yeah I was kinda thinking the same thing but with more PRT trying to guilt Taylor into working with them by saying that with someone with her abilities could have done something to help.

 

[Qaw]

Not against Simurgh. Not with a Ward. Not when she can't obviously contribute in a meaningful way.

That's three for three.

PS: And they'll have bigger headaches. If anything, that'll be one week Taylor gets stress-free.

 

[KingCrimson1081]

Yeah definitly not the battle itself but perhaps they will try and talk her into helping out with the aftermath or search and rescue.

 

[BF110C4]

Not against Simurgh. Not with a Ward. Not when she can't obviously contribute in a meaningful way.

That's three for three.

PS: And they'll have bigger headaches. If anything, that'll be one week Taylor gets stress-free.

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Actually no one is stress free during an Endbringer attack even on the opposite side of the planet. I have heard some excellent arguments that even with the unofficial truce the heroes and law enforcement that stays home have their hands full stopping riots, mass suicides and generalized looting at national scale, particularly when the Endbringer in question is the paranoia inducing Simurgh. From an independent heroine point of view she is going to be very busy the next battle even if she stays on Boston.

 

[Vanbers]

Actually no one is stress free during an Endbringer attack even on the opposite side of the planet. I have heard some excellent arguments that even with the unofficial truce the heroes and law enforcement that stays home have their hands full stopping riots, mass suicides and generalized looting at national scale, particularly when the Endbringer in question is the paranoia inducing Simurgh. From an independent heroine point of view she is going to be very busy the next battle even if she stays on Boston.

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Ehhhhh...

That'd be more when Endbringers were still 'new'. Once they became a known thing, it's more likely people stay home when the quarterly Endbringer Attack comes around. If only in America, and if only because fucking around during the Attack might ruin the Truce, meaning Heroes come down *hard* on people fucking around during one.

Only way I see 'riots, mass suicides and looting', is if there's a Fallen cell nearby doing something fucky, which they probably do every time to 'support' the Endbringers.

 

[BF110C4]

Ehhhhh...

That'd be more when Endbringers were still 'new'. Once they became a known thing, it's more likely people stay home when the quarterly Endbringer Attack comes around. If only in America, and if only because fucking around during the Attack might ruin the Truce, meaning Heroes come down *hard* on people fucking around during one.

Only way I see 'riots, mass suicides and looting', is if there's a Fallen cell nearby doing something fucky, which they probably do every time to 'support' the Endbringers.

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I don't know, the combination of tension before the attack, the knowledge that serious economic inestability is going to follow the attack no matter where it happens, the inevitable shift in power dinamics while the Protectorate heroes and many villains are away, and the way law enforcement is seriously overstretched makes it a very fertile ground for chaos.

In that sense the riots that are portrayed in Visitors from Afar make lots of sense. if you think about it, in Worm properly the Endbringers are not exactly treated as a natural disaster and more like a boogieman that does frequently appear to bring human civilization to ruin, to the point the pre-Leviathan Undersiders are afraid of even mentioning them on a conversation (which was a way of keeping the surprise of what they were until the reveal), and Canary was thrown into the deepest hole possible mostly by having a vague resemblance to Simurg both in her appearance and powers. So something as simple as a rumor that a Endbringer might change his mind an come to the same continent you are is enough to cause a panic, made even worse when you think about the fact that later Endbringers did change locations without warning.

 

[SlickRCBD]

I don't believe so, but it also doesn't seem like something that would be a big deal in this story. Noncompliant!Taylor stays home[PRT] in her room. ObedientWard!Taylor also stays home but in the wards lobby. Vigilante!Taylor stays home and watches the news.
There's no story here beyond 'And then this happened and I missed a day of school.'

Weld and Hunch might go out and help against Simurgh/Aftermath, but this isn't something that affects our protagonist.


@SlickRCBD I previously asked for some case law for one of your statements.

I assume you missed it the first time, but I'd appreciate the research material.

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I'm having trouble coaxing it out of Google. My Uncle, an attorney told me about it a long time ago (10-15 years ago) when I was asked to sign an NDA I didn't fully understand the scope of and asked him to translate it from legalese, but he had a stroke last year and isn't in good shape to answer questions like this.
I'm a computer technician, not an attorney. I didn't think it was important to keep citations and case law references at the time.
I'm sorry I took so long, I was trying to find it and getting frustrated because I know I saw something over a decade ago, but now all I can find is "NDAs are out of control" and "Talk to an attorney about an NDA before you sign it, especially if you might need to breach it."

 

[fluxoid]

Can you send me the case law for this?
I've already made it clear everything I think of this argument, but I remember researching this before concerning the real world, and I forgot to bookmark the results.

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I doubt that the question of an NDA covering criminal activity would ever come up in case law, because no barrister would be foolish enough to bring it up. An NDA is a civil contract: In the event that it is violated, the NDA simply allows one party to sue another for breach of contract.

There are, to my knowledge, no circumstances in any country on earth in which a civil contract would take precedence over criminal law.

If somebody signs a contract explicitly saying that they consent for you to kill them, and you do, you're still legally a murderer. The existence of that contract would, if it came up at trial at all, be used as evidence against you.

I imagine that their are jurisdictions in which you could theoretically attempt to sue somebody for violating an NDA that forbade them from reporting your criminal activity, but I believe that in most of the world such a contract would be held unenforceable (civil contracts cannot be used to legally compel someone to commit a crime, and in most places failing to report a serious crime is itself a criminal offense), the lawsuit would probably be thrown out almost instantly, and in any event it would provide no shield from criminal prosecution of whatever was reported.

Another relevant issue here is that you cannot have an NDA (or indeed any binding contract) with a non-emancipated minor. Any NDA regarding Taylor's actions would be signed on her behalf by guardians (in this case I think that's the PRT or the Protectorate, as AFAIR Danny gave them full custody) and if she violated the contract, they're the ones who would be sued in any consequent lawsuit.

I'm really not sure why Worm fanfiction keeps mentioning NDAs used to protect hero identities. In real life when governments want to protect secrets they use things like the Official Secrets Act to criminalize revealing sensitive information.

 

[SlickRCBD]

I doubt that the question of an NDA covering criminal activity would ever come up in case law, because no barrister would be foolish enough to bring it up. An NDA is a civil contract: In the event that it is violated, the NDA simply allows one party to sue another for breach of contract.

There are, to my knowledge, no circumstances in any country on earth in which a civil contract would take precedence over criminal law.
==snip==

Another relevant issue here is that you cannot have an NDA (or indeed any binding contract) with a non-emancipated minor. Any NDA regarding Taylor's actions would be signed on her behalf by guardians (in this case I think that's the PRT or the Protectorate, as AFAIR Danny gave them full custody) and if she violated the contract, they're the ones who would be sued in any consequent lawsuit.

I'm really not sure why Worm fanfiction keeps mentioning NDAs used to protect hero identities. In real life when governments want to protect secrets they use things like the Official Secrets Act to criminalize revealing sensitive information.

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I think he was talking about when I mentioned that an NDA can keep you from talking to a lawyer about the information protected by an NDA. If the lawyer then creates the legal paperwork and files it in court where it is obvious that he knows information protected by the NDA, his client can then be penalized for the breech.
So this effectively prevents you from getting legal counsel without a court order, and to get a court order you need to file paperwork and prove you have a case without help from an attorney.
I know there is a cite for several cases like this somewhere on the web, but I couldn't find them. I'm probably using the wrong terminology, but when I search for "NDA" I get swamped with other stuff and Google got rid of the boolean operators (logical AND, OR, NOT. Bitwise boolean would include XOR) as well as the "must include".

The part about the non-emancipated minor is why I asked what would happen if Taylor breached the NDA or non-disparagement clause she didn't sign but was signed by her PRT guardians. Legally it's usually on them, but she hasn't had much contact with said guardians and doesn't care about them.

As for Official Secrets Act, that's British Law. American law doesn't have it and can't have it because of the First Amendment. When classified information that is leaked to the press, they can't go after the press unless they committed another crime obtaining it such as cracking a computer, stealing a briefcase, or breaking & entering to trespass on a building and copy documents. They can however go after the person who gave the information to the press as that person has signed a contract to obtain his security clearance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classified_information_in_the_United_States
As for protecting heroes identities, there is some precedent in the "Intelligence Identities Protection Act" that makes it illegal to disclose the identity of covert agents.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_Identities_Protection_Act

 

[fluxoid]

I think he was talking about when I mentioned that an NDA can keep you from talking to a lawyer about the information protected by an NDA.

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Have a look at this Wikipedia article on unconscionable (and thus legally unenforceable) terms in contracts. A quote from one of their "typical examples" of terms that would always be considered unconscionable:

Examples of gross one-sidedness would be provisions that limit damages against the seller, or limit the rights of the purchaser to seek relief in the courts against the seller

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They're talking about an example involving a sales contract, but I suspect the same standard would be applied in any sort of contract.

I know that mandatory binding-arbitration clauses have a long history of being ruled unenforceable.

 

[Qaw]

Have a look at this Wikipedia article on unconscionable (and thus legally unenforceable) terms in contracts. A quote from one of their "typical examples" of terms that would always be considered unconscionable:

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I know that mandatory binding-arbitration clauses have a long history of being ruled unenforceable.

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Oh, that all may be true, but do you want to bet your house on it when the time comes?
Because I have heard of cases like what SlickRCBD is describing, and I am fully willing to believe that if you get a judge with an room temperature IQ and don't get lucky at the appellate court, you might get screwed anyway.
There is a reason people don't want to go to court in the USA regardless of how right they are, and so many people plea or settle.

But in the end, if we can't find the actual case law that's all there is to it. Too bad so sad.

 

[SlickRCBD]

Oh, that all may be true, but do you want to bet your house on it when the time comes?
Because I have heard of cases like what SlickRCBD is describing, and I am fully willing to believe that if you get a judge with an room temperature IQ and don't get lucky at the appellate court, you might get screwed anyway.
There is a reason people don't want to go to court in the USA regardless of how right they are, and so many people plea or settle.

But in the end, if we can't find the actual case law that's all there is to it. Too bad so sad.

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I'm just not willing to put the effort into digging up the old reference I saw a decade ago. I remember being shown a reference, but the person who showed it to me has had a stroke and I can't ask him. Sorry, it just isn't worth it to me, I tired some basic use of Google.

 

[KingCrimson1081]

What would Taylor's reaction be if they transfer out Jim and replaced him with a Youth Guard member more inline with the PRT's agenda rather than the Youth Guard's own policies.

 

[Highlord]

What would Taylor's reaction be if they transfer out Jim and replaced him with a Youth Guard member more inline with the PRT's agenda rather than the Youth Guard's own policies.

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More than he already is? For all the YG's talk of being there to protect the children, they're part of the same bureaucracy, even if they don't publicly acknowledge it. In a choice between holding the PRT responsible or in any way damaging it's face and the rights and well being of minor parahuman, they'll side with the PRT every time. Otherwise the powers that be wouldn't allow them to exist.

Remember, for all the pretty poetry and bombastic declarations of freedom, the only rights you or anyone else have are those the people in power allow you to have. If said rights become too inconvenient, or simply annoying, you will quickly find out exactly how much they actually matter. The US is just as feudal and despotic as the worst kingdoms of Europe and Asia ever were, it just has more money to spend on bread and circuses to keep the peasants happy and stupid. Why do you think so much effort is spent making sure the population is content in being both powerless and defenseless?

In the end, the only way to keep a governing body honest is to hold it's members at gunpoint, and regularly make examples of failures and abusers. It is, after all, the exact same way they keep a population doing their bidding.

If some new Youth Guard rep decided to be blatant about it, Taylor's resistance would become both more hard line and hostile, right up until she walked. Probably right after appearing to play ball, just so she could drag the PRT and YG into a press conference, cover them in shit, and disappear.

 

[BF110C4]

Plus the YG rep hasn't been doing too many things for Taylor's direct benefit if you think about it. He has been helping pile up the fines and restrictions on the BB branch and filled the paperwork to ban Danny but the fact is that the Boston Branch has been following the letter and spirit of the regulations regarding Taylor and even within those same regulations they have been careful not to be too harsh with her so locally he hasn't been doing much for Taylor or against her beyond being a sounding board. A new YG drone following the hawk's party line would actually enter in conflict with Amstrong before even meeting Taylor since he is the one resisting external pressure to force Phase to do the testing and said drone would have his hands tied pretty early since Amstrong has been shown to be running a clean, tight ship regarding the Ward's Charter so he has nothing to fear about being penalized on that regard.

 

[KingCrimson1081]

Plus the YG rep hasn't been doing too many things for Taylor's direct benefit if you think about it. He has been helping pile up the fines and restrictions on the BB branch and filled the paperwork to ban Danny but the fact is that the Boston Branch has been following the letter and spirit of the regulations regarding Taylor and even within those same regulations they have been careful not to be too harsh with her so locally he hasn't been doing much for Taylor or against her beyond being a sounding board. A new YG drone following the hawk's party line would actually enter in conflict with Amstrong before even meeting Taylor since he is the one resisting external pressure to force Phase to do the testing and said drone would have his hands tied pretty early since Amstrong has been shown to be running a clean, tight ship regarding the Ward's Charter so he has nothing to fear about being penalized on that regard.

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Yeah all it would really do in the end would remove Taylor's only moral/political support in Boston and probably push her over the edge into going runaway or into villiany which nobody wants.

 

[KingCrimson1081]

I just had an idea, considering the fact that Taylor's clairvoyance is powerful enough to account for every individual speck of dust around her can she theoretically use it to speed read by detecting the ink on the various pages of a book all at once it would make going through all those legal documents looking for loopholes so much easier if she could just stand nearby and scan the whole thing at once.

 

[Wentley]

I was wondering if there was an unthreadmarked update, since the last one was about three months ago. Nope. Wasn't necromancy either!

 

[KingCrimson1081]

Omake: Nothing Left to Lose



It was a late night in Boston as two teenagers stood facing each other in an abandoned warehouse. One held a pleading look in her eyes while the other looked back in anger.

Lily:
"Taylor, you're angry, I get it. Believe me, I know what it's like, but you are making a mistake!"

She did understand truly the PRT had screwed her over on more than one occasion by tossing her around department to department, but what Taylor was doing was a step two far.

"The path of hate is a dangerous track. You take one step, and it's hard to turn back. It pulls you along, and though it seems wrong it feels right."

She couldn't let Taylor do this it would be an action that she could never take back, and would have consequences for far to many people than just herself.

"Don't you see this path you're on leaves a permanent mark. It feels good at first, then it slowly turns dark. With each passing day, you're further astray from the light."

If Taylor left now she would be cut off from anyone who could help her heal, it would only make things worse for her not better.

"Suddenly you lose your way and lose the thread. Lose your cool and lose your head. Every loss is harder to excuse."

It was dangerous for a lone parahuman to live in any city where people like Accord or the Teeth could come after them especially for someone with Taylor's abilities.

"Then you'll see. You'll lose your faith and lose your soul. Till you lose complete control. And realize there's nothing left to lose. Nothing left to lose."

If one of those two manage to get their hands on her they wouldn't take no for an answer like the PRT has been doing it would be either join or die at that point.

"Taylor, trust me, becoming the villain isn't the answer!"

Taylor:
"Is that what you think I am?"

How dare she, after everything the PRT has done to her from the locker, to separating her from her home. She thought she could just let that go.

"The path I'm on is a path paved in black. I'm taking that road and I'm not looking back. Each twist and each turn leads straight where I'm yearning to go."

It may not be the best path but it was the only one she could find that didn't see her trapped with the Protectorate for the rest of her life.

"Yes, it's true, my path is dark, but I see where it ends. My rivals will fall as my power ascends. Despise me that's fine I'm taking what's mine even so."

She would be free, free from Emma and Sophia, from the PRT, the Protectorate, and the Wards. She couldn't live any other way not like she is now.

"Not like you. You lost your nerve, you lost the game. But you and I, we're not the same. I'm not lost, this fate was mine to choose."

For the first time since the locker this was her choice to make no her dad's, not the PRT's, hers.

"So I chose. To lose my doubts and lose my chains. Lose each weakness that remains. Now that I have nothing left to lose. Nothing left to lose."

The PRT had taken everything from her, but now they could take nothing else she wouldn't let them.

Lily:
"You have so much to hold onto."

She still had her dad, and the other Wards would be willing to help her if she just opened up.

Taylor:
"I only want my rightful dues!"

If only the PRT had done their jobs and punished Emma and Sophia for what they did, but no they didn't because the PRT couldn't be seen to make mistakes.

Lily:
"Listen, please (Taylor: Lose). You've lost your grip and lost your mind (Taylor: I'm not gonna lose). All's not lost, don't be so blind (Taylor: I refuse). Cut your losses, drop the IOUs (Taylor: I refuse).

There is still a chance things could get better if only Taylor was willing to work with them.

"Ooh, choose!"

She needed to make a choice here this is her last chance.

Taylor:
"I lose no tears and lose no sleep. What I want, I'll take and keep.

She regretted many things in life ever being friends with Emma for one, but this she would not regret this not for one second.

Lily:
"It's time for you to choose!"

It had to be now any longer and Taylor would not stop what she is doing.

Taylor:
"You can't stop."

There is nothing that Lily could say to her to make her turn back she wont let the PRT take anything else from her.

Both:
"The turning of the screws"

Taylor:
"You'll stay in your cage until I am done, and don't even think about coming after me.

Taylor left the warehouse and Lily behind and when she had moved far enough away she looked back.

"Now I have nothing left to lose."

It hurt more than it should have but it had to be done for her own well being she had to be free consequences be damned.

AN: Listened to this song randomly and had the idea hope you enjoy.

 

[KingCrimson1081]

Anyone have any ideas what the general opinion on Taylor is among the PRT agents is because we have seen the perspective of Armstrong, the Wards and some heroes but so far non on the perspective of the rank and file agents or is the issue just above their pay grade. Also is there gonna be any reaction from Taylor's assigned legal guardian because it probably doesnt look good to have your name next to Boston's most frustrating Ward on an official document.

 

[BF110C4]

Anyone have any ideas what the general opinion on Taylor is among the PRT agents is because we have seen the perspective of Armstrong, the Wards and some heroes but so far non on the perspective of the rank and file agents or is the issue just above their pay grade. Also is there gonna be any reaction from Taylor's assigned legal guardian because it probably doesnt look good to have your name next to Boston's most frustrating Ward on an official document.

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The legal guardian is as far as we can see only rubberstamping Armstrong's orders, which since are perfectly reasonable for the current situation and neutral enough that even if Taylor turns around her situation the agent in question wouldn't be more tainted by the scandal than the average trooper. That would change if they try to use the legal guardianship to try to cheat her right not to take parahuman tests or to deny her a neutral legal counsel but so far the PRT and Protectorate have been very careful not to step on Taylor's legal rights at all so at this point of the fic is unlikely that will happen at all.

As for the rank and file in general? I'm guessing that they are not particularly comfortable being in the same elevator than Taylor but not enough to actually care beyond the occasional barb against her. This is one of the cases were the divide between PRT and Protectorate should be more obvious. The troopers are mostly uninvolved in the conflict between Phase and the Wards (who everywhere except Brockton Bay are the responsability of the Protectorate), they don't interact with her on the field or even in the base and for that matter with the rest of the Wards as well. They probably don't like her too much due to the headache she gave PR during the tours and the fact that she doesn't help to contain threats in Boston is another black mark against her, but unlike the ENE region the situation is not as unstable as to actually need that help so at most they should treat her as they would a midly irritating REMF (or a midly irritating teenager) and won't go out of their way to make things hard for Taylor unless directly provoked.

 

[tarrangar]

The legal guardian is as far as we can see only rubberstamping Armstrong's orders, which since are perfectly reasonable for the current situation and neutral enough that even if Taylor turns around her situation the agent in question wouldn't be more tainted by the scandal than the average trooper. That would change if they try to use the legal guardianship to try to cheat her right not to take parahuman tests or to deny her a neutral legal counsel but so far the PRT and Protectorate have been very careful not to step on Taylor's legal rights at all so at this point of the fic is unlikely that will happen at all.

As for the rank and file in general? I'm guessing that they are not particularly comfortable being in the same elevator than Taylor but not enough to actually care beyond the occasional barb against her. This is one of the cases were the divide between PRT and Protectorate should be more obvious. The troopers are mostly uninvolved in the conflict between Phase and the Wards (who everywhere except Brockton Bay are the responsability of the Protectorate), they don't interact with her on the field or even in the base and for that matter with the rest of the Wards as well. They probably don't like her too much due to the headache she gave PR during the tours and the fact that she doesn't help to contain threats in Boston is another black mark against her, but unlike the ENE region the situation is not as unstable as to actually need that help so at most they should treat her as they would a midly irritating REMF (or a midly irritating teenager) and won't go out of their way to make things hard for Taylor unless directly provoked.

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There's probably also at least some of them, who are uncomfortable with the fact, that she's basically a conscripted teenage girl.