With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Mquz]

And I'm supposed to care about the "rules" of a crappy children's cartoon show because?

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Because if science can defeat magic (head on, without doing something clever) it's not actual magic. This applies to a lot of fiction. About the only thing of actual relevance I can come up with. It's kind of the counterpoint of "sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" - "if technology is insufficiently advanced, it is distinguishably worse than magic."
Though that's still not necessarily very relevant.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

Because if science can defeat magic (head on, without doing something clever) it's not actual magic.

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How so? In the end, it tends to boil down to energy on energy. I will point that it seems like Mr. Starfire's whatever blasts where bothering the dragon more.

I mean I understand from the whole "Magic ignoring the laws of the universe/re-writing reality."

So I can get why OL firing a bullet into a magic shield might not work as that shield could be enchanted to absorb the very forces that bullets use to do damage.

But what, pray tell, what is the difference between magical whatever, and a power rings emotionally generated constructs of colored light?

Because barring the fact that Alan Scott's original ring WAS magical, and Silver age power rings could do ANYTHING the user had enough emotion to power, I really do fail to see much of a difference.

OL is harnessing a fundamental emotion on the universe to make shit. Magical effects out of a user friendly device.

I also can't help but notice, that is that it seems to me, that in situations like this, OL, AND ONLY OL, are unable to have any effect.

And I'm sorry, but when OL fights something, and he throws every god damn thing he can imagine at it (Sonic, Laser, Kinetic force, Plasma, Extreme cold, Gravity) and NOTHING WORKS, and this happens ALL THE TIME now it seems. It gets tiresome. Like a Worf effect to try and preserve drama, only in this case it's to keep OL from being the more effective than the people around him.

 

[Queshire]

It's kind of dumb to make generalizations about magic, especially comic book magic. That said, there's plenty of magibabble that could be employed.

As an example, I toss a fireball at you. The fire itself is only secondary. It's merely a vehicle to embody the concept of destruction (because fire destroys stuff) which is where the actual damage comes from.

 

[Vaermina]

How so? In the end, it tends to boil down to energy on energy. I will point that it seems like Mr. Starfire's whatever blasts where bothering the dragon more.

I mean I understand from the whole "Magic ignoring the laws of the universe/re-writing reality."

So I can get why OL firing a bullet into a magic shield might not work as that shield could be enchanted to absorb the very forces that bullets use to do damage.

But what, pray tell, what is the difference between magical whatever, and a power rings emotionally generated constructs of colored light?

Because barring the fact that Alan Scott's original ring WAS magical, and Silver age power rings could do ANYTHING the user had enough emotion to power, I really do fail to see much of a difference.

OL is harnessing a fundamental emotion on the universe to make shit. Magical effects out of a user friendly device.

I also can't help but notice, that is that it seems to me, that in situations like this, OL, AND ONLY OL, are unable to have any effect.

And I'm sorry, but when OL fights something, and he throws every god damn thing he can imagine at it (Sonic, Laser, Kinetic force, Plasma, Extreme cold, Gravity) and NOTHING WORKS, and this happens ALL THE TIME now it seems. It gets tiresome. Like a Worf effect to try and preserve drama, only in this case it's to keep OL from being the more effective than the people around him.

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You seem to be forgetting that out of all the people fighting, Paul is the only one without any real magic.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

You seem to be forgetting that out of all the people fighting, Paul is the only one without any real magic.

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And you seem to forget that I don't care.

But, to that point, where is Mr. Starfire's magic? Given that he got his powers from touching Alien tech and all.

 

[Mr Zoat]

12th January
00:13 GMT +1

Redirect railgun to point at the left sabaton while it's distracted, fire, stab between the lames, grab the dropped club with both hands as it limps, plant feet and swing!

The club hits it in the left shoulder, the armour's protective spells failing and the armour itself crumpling as the mutant is knocked away and falls to the ground! Not sure of the exact extent of its injuries, but I think it's disabled.

"Wretched boy!"

The club isn't disrupting my violet protective cover so I rise off the ground and lunge at the next closest mutant. Out of the corner of my eye I see Kaldur and Raquel similarly engaged.

"We've found your phylactery."

My swing strikes the next mutant on its shield, which unlike the armour of its predecessor takes the blow from my new club. It retaliates with a stab from its sword, which I side-.

I sidestep and immediately sidestep again to avoid the stab from the spear-wielding mutant just behind it. Their bulk means that they aren't great spear-fighters but I'm going to have to expand my awareness slightly. The smaller mutants are surging around again while my railgun is focusing on the joints in the larger type's armour. Raquel is saying something to Zatanna, who looks like she's mostly ignoring-.

Another spear-stab, and I dart back to avoid it.

"And?"

Mage slayer to the shaft of the spear, where the head is attached. Stab. No, dagger destroyed. Swing the-. Angle awkward, mutant breathing fire again. Move to the side and stab the mouth.

"We can't hurt you. We can just kill you, but-"

Jaw closed too fast. Mage slayer the teeth, stab the gum.

"-we don't want to. Surrender."

Mouth opens stab then-.

Fuck it.

"Going lethal."

Stab upwards. Sword mutant falls, brain pierced. Swing club push corpse back towards spearmen. Turn swing strike spear break it.

"Die!"

Drop and fly under shield at ground level swinging club. Leg broken move sideways avoid stab. Fly up swing club down crush. Turn parry spear shaft with right arm mage slayer opposite sabaton stab.

"Robin, destroy the crystal."

Extend railgun forward fire at gap between vambrace and gauntlet stab. Slice. Arm disabled bleeding heavily. Club to the head. Club to the head. Club to the head.

"On it."

The large mutants back away. Pick up spear in right hand, club in left, grant ring computer control of arm movements. Move right slicing spear through three smaller mutants. Injuries disabling or fatal.

"No, I am."

More mutants current techniques inefficient allies have atmospheric protections. Deploying thioacetone gas. Advance. Enemies stunned. Swing club into shield, stab spear at gorget. Throat pierced, withdraw.

"Robin, the dragon is returning!"

Mutants oncoming. Stab at eye, mage slayer to sabaton stab fall back. Fly right swing club. Stab spear knocked aside drop swing club. Mage slayer to gorget stab.

"Pulling out now. Canis!"

Mutants shrinking slightly. Armour impedes movement. Evasion less relevant as they lost the ability to grip their weapons effectively. Disabling strikes at armour joints most efficient. Fire stab fire stab-.

I lower my weapons as whatever mutagen was affecting the gnomes stops affecting them. Several lie bleeding and unmoving around me, the spell not ended by their deaths but by the…

"Is Lantern Karfang dead?"

"Yes."

I take a purple ray out of subspace and toss it to Raquel, who fumbles her initial catch but keeps hold of it. "Cornwall, if you've got a moment, please help remove their armour."

I walk over to the closest gnome, a stick-thin, child-sized figure. There's a slash through its chest where I hit it with the spear. Fae physiology isn't well recorded. Once they die their bodies tend to either break down or turn into something that shouldn't work. This one is still just alive.

Ring, analyse blood.

Chemical analysis complete.

I fabricate as near a match as I can, knowing that without magic it probably won't work properly. Normally with this sort of injury the correct thing to do is to not transfuse, as that raises the blood pressure, interferes with clotting and causes internal bleeding. But in this case my new patient is dropping to non-survivable levels of blood loss. Construct clamps hold the wound open, construct surgical arms knit the severed parts of… Whatever those organs are back together, short bursts of purple healing ray nudging the magical physiology into repairing itself.

"Zatanna." Kaldur nods Raquel and the newly landed Leonid in my direction, passing his supply of healing potions to them. "I need you to accompany Superboy inside the warren and find out what is wrong with Canis-."

"No." Zatanna stands next to me, watching as I close the wound and move onto the next gnome. Dead, dead… Ah, yes, I remember this one. None of the wounds are fatal, but they'd be blinded and crippled. "Paul's more important."

Point to point only.

Compliance.

"Kaldur, she's affected by the same thing that affected you. She's just focusing on me rather than what you were focusing on. I strongly expect that Canis and Amon are affected by it as well."

"Understood."

"Orange Lantern to Osiris."

"The dragon is dead! I had to fight through a dozen dragon gnomes to reach its inner sanctum! It was the greatest battle of my life!"

"I heard. Well done. But we're worried that it put a death-curse on you. Did Adom teach you how to increase your magic resistance?"

"Hah, yes! I will-."

…

"Robin to team. Osiris just collapsed."

"What is Canis doing?"

"Trying to put the crystal back together."

Next to me, Robert walks up behind Zatanna and puts his hands on her shoulders. She starts, then collapses, the Staff of Love falling from her hands. He catches her and then carefully lays her on the least blood-covered bit of ground he can reach.

Robert looks at Kaldur, who nods. "I will send Cornwall Boy down to assist. Try to keep him calm."

"And don't touch Karfang's power ring. I'll be down for it once I've finished here."

"Okay. Robin out."

 

[Mastigos2]

So here's a fun question: is Karfang the first person Robin has ever killed?

 

[Maxx Crowley]

Thank goodness OL managed to snag that stick, and another sharpened stick.

I find the frantic medical attention after just doing his level best to kill amusing.

 

[Flux Casey]

Calling it now. Next update ends with something exploding.

 

[Chojin Patriarch]

...crumpling as the mutant it knocked away and falls to the ground!

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...crumpling as the mutant is knocked away and falls to the ground!

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

Mage slayer to the shaft of the spear, where the head is attached. Stab. No, dagger destroyed. Swing the-. Angle awkward, mutant breathing fire again. Move to the side and stab the mouth.

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I like how his commentary gets more and more terse as he's pressed. Really captures the mindset of combat.

"Going lethal."

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Oh, he's gonna catch it for this. And a proper reminder that Good isn't necessarily Nice, especially in a fight.

Drop and fly under shield at ground level swinging club. Leg broken move sideways avoid stab. Fly up swing club down crush. Turn parry spear shaft with right arm mage slayer opposite sabaton stab.

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Damn, he's a machine! And like this, it's easy to visualise just how he's moving too. Mr Zoat, you write good action.

Extend railgun forward fire at gap between vambrace and gauntlet stab. Slice. Arm disabled bleeding heavily. Club to the head. Club to the head. Club to the head.

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A pain when they just won't go down, eh?

"No, I am."

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Osiris, I take it, coming over the ring's comms? Or Karfang, bellowing defiance as she races to defend her heartstone?

I lower my weapons as whatever mutagen was affecting the gnomes stops affecting them. Several lie bleeding and unmoving around me, the spell not ended by their deaths but by the…

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And the combat fugue ends...

...passing his supply of healing potion to them.

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...passing his supply of healing potions to them.

Ah, the after-action phase. Heals and looting all round! There's gonna be some embarrassing moments ahead, I bet, as Zatanna and Osiris catch up to what they did 'under the influence', as it were. This was messy for everyone...

 

[RichardWhereat]

Calling it now. Next update ends with something exploding.

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Playing the odds huh? Okay.

 

[Kalem_Lee]

No! That Dragon was...well technically not People.

 

[Jiro]

(I see some meta-irony here that we probably can't delve into. Paul is, as far as any objective observer can tell--and I'm assuming biologically as well--a teenager. However, he identifies as a 30-year-old man, considers himself that deep inside, and is very uncomfortable when people insist on misaging him, despite never actually telling them how he identifies himself.

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I don't think this analogy really works. None of the "misaging" consists of people saying "I understand that you consider yourself a 30 year old, but I don't think you qualify as one". Nobody is consciously disagreeing with him, they're just ignorant (said ignorance being his fault, but that's a different story). Also, the problem is with actions, not words; what Zatanna calls him is not really important, it's hitting on him that's the problem.

 

[RichardWhereat]

No! That Dragon was...well technically not People.

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In what way was the sophont with likes, dislikes, and, well not dreams exactly since she means to achieve it, but a certain ambition, the ability to reason, consider herself as an individual entity, and the heart of a dragon, not a person?

 

[Mr Zoat]

How so? In the end, it tends to boil down to energy on energy. I will point that it seems like Mr. Starfire's whatever blasts where bothering the dragon more.

I mean I understand from the whole "Magic ignoring the laws of the universe/re-writing reality."

So I can get why OL firing a bullet into a magic shield might not work as that shield could be enchanted to absorb the very forces that bullets use to do damage.

But what, pray tell, what is the difference between magical whatever, and a power rings emotionally generated constructs of colored light?

Click to shrink...

Basically, while most of Karfang's ability to use magic is instinctive, not all of it is. Having a power ring in her own possession, she was able to expand her normal resistances by using it as a talisman. She doesn't have that with Starfire's energy bolts and so feels it a little bit.

Which is not to say that affecting her is easy anyway. She's got a conceptual invulnerability which -for example- lets her see but doesn't blind her by preventing the rods and cones in her eye responding to light and also prevents her from being blinded by lasers shone at her eyes.

 

[Kalem_Lee]

In what way was the sophont with likes, dislikes, and, well not dreams exactly since she means to achieve it, but a certain ambition, the ability to reason, consider herself as an individual entity, and the heart of a dragon, not a person?

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Trying to make the joke from DCAUabridged.

 

[Mr Zoat]

So here's a fun question: is Karfang the first person Robin has ever killed?

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Sort of.

Calling it now. Next update ends with something exploding.

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No. No explosions.

...crumpling as the mutant is knocked away and falls to the ground!
...passing his supply of healing potion to them.
...passing his supply of healing potions to them.

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Thank you, corrected.

No! That Dragon was...well technically not People.

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Under Swiss law Karfang was a person, though not a person they'd given a great deal of thought to when writing the law.

 

[Queshire]

Basically, while most of Karfang's ability to use magic is instinctive, not all of it is. Having a power ring in her own possession, she was able to expand her normal resistances by using it as a talisman. She doesn't have that with Starfire's energy bolts and so feels it a little bit.

Which is not to say that affecting her is easy anyway. She's got a conceptual invulnerability which -for example- lets her see but doesn't blind her by preventing the rods and cones in her eye responding to light and also prevents her from being blinded by lasers shone at her eyes.

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So does that mean that if she was, say, 50% resistant to Starfire's blasts she'd be 90% resistant to OL's efforts since they were created by an Orange Power Ring?

 

[Prince Charon]

Sort of.

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I don't have sufficient context to parse that image, as I probably don't have the comic that it's from. My current guess is that he temporarily killed Ra's al Ghul?

 

[Sceptic]

In what way was the sophont with likes, dislikes, and, well not dreams exactly since she means to achieve it, but a certain ambition, the ability to reason, consider herself as an individual entity, and the heart of a dragon, not a person?

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In the way that the Justice League probably won't bitch and moan much (if at all) about killing her.

 

[Sockmonkey]

On the one hand, yes. On the other hand, Cornwall Boy has an extremely specialized powerset and is absolutely in his element here. It's still impressive as hell, but it doesn't put him anything like on Paul's overall power level.

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Also his great-grandad has been putting him through hardcore magic boot camp.
A year ago, he was little more than a magic-powered mid-tier bruiser. Now he actually knows what the fuck he's doing.

It occurs to me that this has significant implications about the nature of life, souls, and magic in this setting.

In D&D, liches aren't invulerable. They can just create a new body for themselves given some time if their existing body is destroyed. They're harder to destroy in the first place because they don't have the vulnerabilities of living things, but brute force still works (at least temporarily).

But on Earth 16, our only example of a living being without a soul was exceedingly vulnerable to just about everything, and a number of almost-living beings without souls are likewise still just corporeal matter.

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A lich and a soulless creature are two different things though. The lich has a soul and all the protections and powers that gives you, it's just not in their physical body. They're basically remote-controlling and powering their bodies with their soul. It's like how Grayven heals himself by using his soul mojo to rebuild his body around his soul. An Earth 16 lich does the same thing, only they rebuild their bodies over there somewhere instead of around where their soul is.

In DC, at least in Vertigo, according to the Books of Magic, magic is a language- the language of the universe. In short, the operating code. The name is the thing, as per Egyptian myth, change the name, change the thing.

Wildstorm seems to have a similar view of magic, since the same power that made Drummer a technopath made him a magician. "Magic is the cheat codes of the universe" is how Drummer explained magic.

New Earth didn't have a unified explanation for magic as far as I'm aware.

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That does make magic make sense.
The Zataras apparently can do command line inputs with the talking backwards thing as a safety feature so they don't accidentally reformat the universe.

She's got a conceptual invulnerability which -for example- lets her see but doesn't blind her by preventing the rods and cones in her eye responding to light and also prevents her from being blinded by lasers shone at her eyes.

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So, a lizardy version of the new god healing thing which would make a dragon new-godzilla.
I regret nothing.

 

[RichardWhereat]

In the way that the Justice League probably won't bitch and moan much (if at all) about killing her.

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Bunch of speciests and vitalists.

 

[Handlewithcare]

Aww, no Dragon-Lich-Lantern

 

[Mr Zoat]

So does that mean that if she was, say, 50% resistant to Starfire's blasts she'd be 90% resistant to OL's efforts since they were created by an Orange Power Ring?

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No. She's 100% immune to damage from both. However, she can get non-harmful pushing force or other sensation from non-ring sources. Starfire shooting her up the nose tickles and gave her a weird and distracting smell. It didn't hurt her.

I don't have sufficient context to parse that image, as I probably don't have the comic that it's from. My current guess is that he temporarily killed Ra's al Ghul?

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Yes. It's from the comic. Robin pulls a diamond lens out of a satellite and tosses it off the lunch gantry. Ra's tries to catch it and fumbles.

 

[Ngamer11]

Are we going to have a scene where the Team and the Justice League are disapproving of Paul killing the gnomes? At least Drakul Karfang was killed by the Team and that they were fine with killing a nigh-unstoppable dragon intent on making humanity extinct.

 

[david15]

Are we going to have a scene where the Team and the Justice League are disapproving of Paul killing the gnomes? At least Drakul Karfang was killed by the Team and that they were fine with killing a nigh-unstoppable dragon intent on making humanity extinct.

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Doubt it, the League only has a problem of killing things that are either human or look human even Batman has killed nonhumon looking people.

 

[Coda]

plant feet and swing

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Aren't comic book physics wonderful? Try this stunt on Earth Prime and the club would carry you with it.

Damn, he's a machine!

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Yes, actually. He put the ring in charge of controlling his body for combat maneuvers so he could focus on higher-level tactics.

Batman has killed nonhumon looking people

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This came up in-story here, in fact, when Batman was talking to OL about what happened to Clayface.

 

[Chaoswind]

What are the odds that the ring spirit will be assimilated by the dragon and will possess her body, to become the first "zombie" orange lantern (zombie dragon) in a similar way to that guy the green lanterns have.

Would be fun, even more so if the spirit belongs to a Gordanian warlord (Lizard people) or a female psion researcher (more lizard people)... Yes that would be the most interesting scenario, having an ancient psion researcher inhabit the body of Karfang and being bewildered by the "second chance" and miffed that her body is so big and unsuitable for experiments now.

 

[Nioz]

Yes. It's from the comic. Robin pulls a diamond lens out of a satellite and tosses it off the lunch gantry. Ra's tries to catch it and fumbles.

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Nit having read much DC, that has to have been his most stupid death...

 

[Coda]

Nit having read much DC, that has to have been his most stupid death...

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I dunno. If you can reliably be resurrected, you'll take risks that you wouldn't have otherwise taken. Awkward, pointless death perhaps... stupid? Maybe not.