transhumansage
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what a shame. i think varny would make a better ally than kalmin. also is qward the only planet in the anti-matter verse?
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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)
- Thread starter Mr Zoat
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transhumansage
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can you elaborate more on this? what are the interests that would be unsatisfied if he is left alive?
Darko
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'different'
Surprises are overrated.
He makes an excellent point as to why working with Kalmin is really, really weird and wrong.
If he tortured and killed them later then it should be 'vivisected'
Yes, he really is.
Good question.
So it's still going to be an empire of assholes, just not omnicidal ones.
'glares'
It would be a true accomplishment if you managed to make it worse.
Well if you're trying to reform them then maybe keep them away from him.
'same'
Okay, so you aren't going to help him, but helping Kalmin is also going to end up screwing you.
BlueMangoAdea
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Huh. I think Paul is thinking very long term? As in, he wants Earth to be the dominant power in the universe. And a reformed Qward Empire would be a competitor.
Idkusername
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Being the Token Evil teammate.
KronusGear
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Honestly I can kinda get where Paul's coming from. Allying with Varnathon may be better for Qward but so long as the Antimonitor himself does not return then having a weak, divided and pointlessly self sabotaging Qward is probably better for the universe at large.
Z000
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and knowing DC
so long is with in the next decade or so considering how Crisis event tend to happen
Darko
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No, there are other planets there, Qward is just dominant.
Varnathon still wants to create an evil empire, just not an omnicidal one, so if he lets him go other people will suffer.
I don't think it would be because they can be a competitor, but rather because they'll be an evil competitor.
Paul has helped other species, and they may potentially compete with Earth, but they're not evil, and even though Varnathon wants to reform Qward, it's still an evil empire.
I know he made a blue Lantern for Alan and is helping with building weapons to fight the Reach.
Good point, though Varnathon seemed willing to stay in his universe, which I don't think Kalmin would be.
ForeverShogo
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Pointlessly self-sabotaging or not, better normal space imperialism in another dimension than having them continue to actively seek the destruction of all life.
Though he really should have vaporized Kalmin once the Blue Ring was created for Alan as his services are no longer required. Keeping him around is pointless. Or hell, if he doesn't even want a reformed Qward to be a thing then just fucking blow up their planet and exterminate the rest of the Qwardians for good measure instead of continuing to help Kalmin.
As things currently stand, Paul seems to be pursuing the dumbest possible outcome.
Though he really should have vaporized Kalmin once the Blue Ring was created for Alan as his services are no longer required. Keeping him around is pointless. Or hell, if he doesn't even want a reformed Qward to be a thing then just fucking blow up their planet and exterminate the rest of the Qwardians for good measure instead of continuing to help Kalmin.
As things currently stand, Paul seems to be pursuing the dumbest possible outcome.
deimos16
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I think I get Paul's rationale. Varnathon may make Qward a better society, and is basically OL as a q'ardajin but the problem is he's OL as a q'ardajin. (OL, whose morality forced him to exterminate a race he thought was shitty - which, they are, but still - what if Varnathon decides some other race is shitty, and pulls an OL with qwa-matter?) Problem or not, what OL wants is resources and developers, which Kalmin gives him.
Varnathon, as good and benevolent (using the term loosely) as he is, isn't really helping out Paul in any way shape or form. He doesn't care what happens to Qward, the Anti-Monitor has fucked off and what a race of assholes does on their own planet is their own business. At least in keeping Kalmin happy, he gets cool tech. Don't think Varnathon would've made a blue ring for Alan.
Also, no Varnathon, no Universal-Level Champion of Avarice Host of Ophidian Enlightened Killing bombs.
Varnathon, as good and benevolent (using the term loosely) as he is, isn't really helping out Paul in any way shape or form. He doesn't care what happens to Qward, the Anti-Monitor has fucked off and what a race of assholes does on their own planet is their own business. At least in keeping Kalmin happy, he gets cool tech. Don't think Varnathon would've made a blue ring for Alan.
Also, no Varnathon, no Universal-Level Champion of Avarice Host of Ophidian Enlightened Killing bombs.
Stsword
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Making weapons.
Although the only active deal I can recall is Kalmin making him a blue ring if Paul offs Sinestro.
So Paul seems to be thinking like a video game character here- Taking the quest that means giving up loot? NEVER!
Darko
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If his life was on the line then I think he would have made a ring, or had someone else do it.
BlueMangoAdea
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His ring is orange, after all.
Mr Zoat
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Thank you, corrected.
The SI originally hired him in case the Controllers betrayed him and he needed someone else to make rings.
DrThoth
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I doubt Varnathon has the skills to make power rings; I forget how he even came to power in the first place actually since it doesn't seem related to technical proficiency.
Paragon primarily wants Kalmin for his skills; it's a shame he didn't encounter Lysis like Renegade did, since she seems proficient enough in power ring construction without being a Dark Kantian like Kalmin (or at least far from the same extent). Kalmin is probably superior, but that just makes him a bigger threat. Especially if he takes the young Qwardians under his wing.
I wonder how Hinon will react to this course of events and Paragon's actions. I'm sure she's developed contingency plans and things, though the fact that she didn't even know Kalmin was making a blue power ring and lantern until after it was done doesn't paint her (or whatever Maltusian who really should be assigned to watch over a former High Weaponlord) in the best light.
Mr Zoat
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No. There's actually an anti-matter Earth, though the SI hasn't visited it as yet.
Qward gets organised and so presents an active threat that knows where Maltus is.
Thank you, corrected.
Mostly they were still alive. The rings tended to shut down if they were killed.
Chojin Patriarch
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And clearly that something is being a conniving snake with a talent for keeping his head attached in this culture... No doubt he'll say anything to survive. Let's see how well he handles this situation.
I like her, she's got some brains in that head. This 'robot' is visibly acting more complex than any Weaponer would code it to be? Must be something special. So it's clearly in charge, even above the Council member accompanying it.
I'd say something about trigger discipline, but really, this is a combat zone. He can be excused for a twitch reaction. Do it again, though, and OL might get annoyed.
Ah, the Qwardian equivalent of the Dope Slap, I see. Probably a lot more effective at getting a message through thick Thunderer skulls, too.
I mean, she probably wouldn't mind you slashing and electrocuting him, given the shit she's been through today because of his policies... Suprised she isn't more concerned about her arm, really.
I take it that's Varnathon forgetting himself there. After all, would the students even know what an Orange Lantern is? And of course, a good surprise is always the best way to expose someone in disguise...
Because Kalmin was more useful alive. Honestly, it's like he's not even paying attention. If Varnathon's received any information from the Reach alongside their payments for Qwa-Matter, the Illustres of the Orange Lantern Corps would be a major data point in it.
And that's Canon, by the way. Thankfully later rings are less setup-intensive. Unless they really drove 3,600 (7,200 if matching the current Greens) separate planets to destruction to farm the fear...
Yeah, It's definitely vivisection if they were still alive to be tortured later, unless he scooped up more when the dissections failed to reveal any useful data. And honestly, I can see Kalmin ordering that.
That may sound callous, but remember, Enlightened OL has always been about 'Want the End, want the Means.' If he needs to work with a monster like Kalmin, than he will. What happens when Kalmin's usefulness is ended? Well, that probably depends on how evil Kalmin still is then...
Well, it doesn't have to be right away, does it? That bridge can be crossed when it comes to it, after all.
True, that. I expect the Controllers have a very close watch on him. Not to the point of annoying him, that could prove painful... But keep in mind, the Controllers are the people who made things like Sun-Eaters, too...
"Because I do have places to be, things to do. Get the state of my soul checked up on and all that."
"Good god, it's strange to see this from the outside..." And yet, his approach is still flawed. People like Kalmin are still out there, ready to overthrow him and put things back the proper way. His position is precarious as hell because of that.
Yes, please do, this should be amazing to hear.
True, he does have a point. The problem is, as Darko noted, people will still suffer no matter how they operate. And if said Omnicidal God shows up, who do you think is going to be first on his chopping block, Varnathon?
Except for the whole 'total annihilation field' effect Qwa-Matter can do. True, it's hardly as bad as some of the weapons they have ('Possible Theological implications', anyone?) But it's more likely to fuck things up worse when things inevitably go wrong. That is a big concern...
Yeah, you just realised... You. Dun. Goofed.
He's seeing his future circling the drain right now, isn't he?No, you wanted idiots too uncaring, short-sighted or just dumb to question things changing. That sort of selection rarely works out well for any race in the future...
Now, that sounds nice and all, but...
And it'd be interesting to see if they could lose that 'token evil' streak that Qwardians have been tarred with. Granted, they're probably too old to comfortably change that much, but it's worth the experiment.
True. I suspect most things are better than Medical Experimentation on Qward, though.
Really, I can see OL seeing a lot of himself in Varnathon, but still...
'Mighty Empire across the Stars' does not strike the same note as OL's enlightened desire to uplift Humanity. I mean, yes, early on, Humans probably would be tempted to go the Empire route...
And this is already raising hackles in the thread, I see. But I can see where OL is coming from. There are just too many variables to predict where Varnathon would take things in the long term. For all we know, he'd drive Qward into a hole, or trigger a social backlash far worse than what we've seen, triggering a new crusade against all life in the Matter universe. Or it might be like Legion's loyalty mission in ME2, where the final choice is really picking from two bad ends (and should have awarded Renegade points either way.)
Hey, you never know, Mr Zoat might be following a 'golden path' playguide for this quest, that gives far better long-term benefits than the obvious ones we see. Handing Varnathon over to Kalmin might not see him promptly Qwa-bolted out of existence... Especially if their relationship values are just right.
It's still too soon to see just how this choice will play out. I'm sure we'll find out in episodes to come. For all we know, the students OL takes with him come back in a couple of years and overthrow Qwardian society, reforming it entirely. And honestly, Qward as it is is a known quantity, with clear goals. Varnathon might have led it into places whose outcomes can't be so easily managed. After all, isn't it 'Better the devil you know, than the devil you don't'?
I'm a little surprised that you're so excited about it, though.
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Mr Zoat
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Thank you, corrected.
BlueMangoAdea
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? Since they were alive, it's definitely vivisection, rather than dissection. I think?
FreeGod
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Seems like it would have been easier to work with multiple controllers. They are hardly a monolith.
iamnuff
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... Disappointing.
Like, i understand that his speech about wanting to be a normal empire that invades it's neighbours for resources isn't totally compelling, but you're taking about an Anti-Monitor cult here.
Literally anything would be an improvement. Both for Qward and the galaxy as a whole.
Honestly feels like Paul would be better off shooting Kalmin in the back and backing this dude instead.
Like... I get that Kalmin built Alan's lantern, but that's already done now and his usefulness going forwards has to be weighed against the fact that he's a Universal-Destruction Cultist.
I don't put any stock into the idea that Paul is 'keeping an eye on him'
This is true, but we already know where Kalmin is going to take things long-term.
Omnicide.
So... literally anything would be better than that.
The only sensible thing to do is squeeze as much tech and weapons as you can out of him as you can, then shoot him in the back.
And obviously Kalmin is doing exactly the same thing. Working together as long as you're useful, but he's still measuring your back for a knife because he wants to kill everything in the universe, and naturally that includes you.
The winning move is to betray him before he betrays you, and with enough force to actually make it stick.
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Tavarokk
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The thing is, Kalmin becomes a problem only if he succeeds at "fixing" Qward, which is a big "if", given how all the weaponers they've met reacted to his religious ramblings. Meanwhile, Varnathon was already succeeding in turning Qward more expansionist, which isn't exactly a good development.
iamnuff
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No, Kalmin is a problem because he desires to destroy the universe.
He's working with OL because he believes that cooperating is allowing him ot develop better weapons and increase his potential capacity for destruction, but sooner or later he's going to stop working on increasing his potential destructive ability and start working on actually using that destructive ability to realize his end-goal.
He'll turn his guns against the universe, because that's what his religion dictates that he has to do.
A fanaticized Qward would be a terrible weapon, but I imagine Kalmin is still capable of causing sector-wide destruction all on his lonesome, as soon as he decides the time is right.
Better to shoot him in the back before that moment comes.
Sorrow
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Better the Devil you know. Also, Paul undoubtedly has contingency plans for Kalmin, while a unified, ACTIVE Qward is a danger to not just the Anti-Matter Universe, but has shown to be willing to show that it will deal in the Positive Matter Universe as well. Thus, good bye to Hope to a better tomorrow on Qward.
Tavarokk
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There's no appreciable difference between destroying the universe and random acts of warmongering at the scale he can operate on in the foreseable future. Unless he manages to get Qward as a whole back on board. Which is what I commented on in the first place.
iamnuff
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Like I edited into my above post, I'm pretty sure Kalmin could take out a sector or two, if he really wanted to. He's a former high-weaponeer and a strict adherent of the anti-monitor, he's a lot more dangerous than your standard qwardian weapons developer.
If a more mercantile Qward seeks to trade or even just steal natural resources then they probably can't afford to blow up people's suns or shatter planets into gravel.
Although I guess seeding plagues onto planets would be a great way to remove the pesky native population so that you can steal their resources.
TLDR, Kalmin is an exceptional version of his race. I'd rate his personal destructive potential about as high as Qward's itself.
Partially because of his skills but also because of his omnicidal motivation.
Oglymogly
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I have to agree with OL's choice here. I'll much rather them stay at home and keep rolling the dice on trying to one shot everything, over a future Reach which have better and more destructive tech. While slow and steady is less likely to destroy everything, it's much more likely to threaten the stuff OL actually cares about.
Mr Zoat
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He'd be killed and dissected if he stuck around.