With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Ngamer11]

Just a thought. Maybe in the future we can have a situation wherein Paul, Zatanna, and Kara will have to work together for something. Think about how awkward that would be, and everyone who hears about it would know it would be awkward and try not to talk about it.

Mr Zoat, is New Kara going to be staying with the Team for the foreseeable future until she can get her way back to her own universe? Also, they can't keep calling her that in universe, can they? If they won't, will they try come up with a nickname or something?

If Demon Kara gets cured in the future, what are the chances she'll become dependent on Paul?

 

[01100111]

Patreon when

 

[Radix]

And Paul may not have much of a hatred for liches, provided that they don't posses people they shouldn't.

He mostly hated Nabu for what he did to Zatanna.

I think he would have been okay with him being put on one of the wizards from the Roanoke incident.

Mandated Paul did not seem to hate him, since the Nabu of his universe used willing hosts and rotated them.

He did find the method creepy and considered Nabu abrasive, but there was no real hatred.

So I think as long as Nabu didn't hurt people Paul cared about, or people who didn't deserve it, then Paul would be okay with him, no matter if he was a lich or not.

The same would probably apply to other liches.

Don't hurt people you shouldn't and he's fine with you.



He does have a girlfriend and has not shown any signs if being sexually or romantically interested in men, or humans.

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What he did to Zatanna meaning what she knowingly agreed to? Or what Zatara knowingly agreed to?

I think it is also fair to keep in mind that Nabu was coming off over half a century of complete isolation after a previous host abandoned him. And as a result it led to Roanoke.

Paul gave more consideration to Demons who actively torture people. He openly treats with omnicdal maniacs. But Nabu took the body of a consenting subject, clearly he must be assassinated.

It is just an examole of how Paragon is beyond conventional human rationality. Alongside how he keeps unconsiously grooming teenage girls. Such as the hug with Kara in this past chapter. He really should have had someone else there to help her process and established healthy boundries.

 

[Ngamer11]

It is just an examole of how Paragon is beyond conventional human rationality. Alongside how he keeps unconsiously grooming teenage girls. Such as the hug with Kara in this past chapter. He really should have had someone else there to help her process and established healthy boundries.

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I think it also says something that Paul is the only one to reach out to them to give them support when they need it the most. It's easy for the superheroes to go fight bad guys to save lives, but it's not so easy to talk to their friends about difficult subjects. Thanks to Paul's mentality, he doesn't hesitate to reach out to others when they need help because he wants to help them.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Paul gave more consideration to Demons who actively torture people. He openly treats with omnicdal maniacs. But Nabu took the body of a consenting subject, clearly he must be assassinated.

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Nabu hurt someone who was his. The demons did not.

 

[Ngamer11]

Mr Zoat, after Zatanna was affected by the Star Sapphire, Paul made sure to tell Jade about it. Will we see him do so again because of the black kryptonite incident, only to have Jade not be surprised this time either? Maybe she can crack a joke about how often this happens to Paul?

 

[The Unaligned Player]

Radix 'Consenting' in the eyes of someone Lawful Neutral and lower.

 

[Radix]

I think it also says something that Paul is the only one to reach out to them to give them support when they need it the most. It's easy for the superheroes to go fight bad guys to save lives, but it's not so easy to talk to their friends about difficult subjects. Thanks to Paul's mentality, he doesn't hesitate to reach out to others when they need help because he wants to help them.

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But he doesnt need to reach out alone. He pulls all sorts of strings to make stuff happen. It would mot be that hard to get other people there to help Kara build a support network. It's not like the League or Paul's friends are uncaring even if they domt go as hard.

If Paul pushed them, it couls help. I mean it is what he did to get Diana helping Conner.

Surely Dinah, M'Gann, Diana, or any number of other people he knows could help? They are very empathic. And certainly more than Paul, who couldn't even notice how he keeps getting teenaged girls dependent on him.

Why isnt he getting Clark involved? Or introduce her to Kori or some other aliens who could give a change of pace?

 

[Ngamer11]

But he doesnt need to reach out alone. He pulls all sorts of strings to make stuff happen. It would mot be that hard to get other people there to help Kara build a support network. It's not like the League or Paul's friends are uncaring even if they domt go as hard.

If Paul pushed them, it couls help. I mean it is what he did to get Diana helping Conner.

Surely Dinah, M'Gann, Diana, or any number of other people he knows could help? They are very empathic. And certainly more than Paul, who couldn't even notice how he keeps getting teenaged girls dependent on him.

Why isnt he getting Clark involved? Or introduce her to Kori or some other aliens who could give a change of pace?

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Fair point. Maybe we'll see just that in the future. For now, we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[Radix]

Radix 'Consenting' in the eyes of someone Lawful Neutral and lower.

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In what way was it not for Zatanna? She was well aware of the risks. She chose to go with it anyways because she wanted the power.

Nabu isnt some car you take out of the garage because you dont want to walk. They already used him as an emergency button against the Injustice League. The fact that they keep using him for his power while leaving him on a shelf is not a good thing.

She gave herself up willingly. Part of lawful good is that you hold up the spirit of your agreement and dont try to screw the other side over. Nabu was upfront about what he wanted.

As for Zatara, its not like Nabu took Zatanna to leverage him. Zatara didnt want her to pay the price. So he paid it instead. It's not like he even pressured Zatara. Hr had to be convinced to the deal. They didnt need to do it right away either. It's not like there was a harm to waiting a few days to talk it out with Fate.

There was plenty of room to negotiate with Fate. They didnt seriously try.

 

[The Unaligned Player]

Radix What about Nabu keeping someone's body after they put him on to save lives, and justifying it as "They knew the risks. If they didn't want to be enslaved they should have just let things go to hell around them/let his daughter be enslaved instead." doesn't sound like something a Devil would say?

 

[Radix]

Radix What about Nabu keeping someone's body after they put him on to save lives, and justifying it as "They knew the risks. If they didn't want to be enslaved they should have just let things go to hell around them/let his daughter be enslaved instead." doesn't sound like something a Devil would say?

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You literally just described it as them putting him on as if he was an object. Go sit on the shelf alone until we decide we need you. That sounds like what you said he is doing that is wrong.

Plus yeah, they should have let things go worse. After all, someone earlier in the thread said that they should experience growing pains to defend the earth. That is the price. If you want Nabu's help, you pay his price. That is how it all works.

Especially because he needs to do proactive work. If they gave him a host, he would have been able to catch those evil wizards far earlier.

 

[The Unaligned Player]

You literally just described it as them putting him on as if he was an object.

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You appear to be reaching to drag the worst possible interpretation of me saying "put on" about somebody who is a helmet. I'd prefer you not.

Plus yeah, they should have let things go worse. After all, someone earlier in the thread said that they should experience growing pains to defend the earth. That is the price. If you want Nabu's help, you pay his price. That is how it all works.

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I'm sorry I must be failing my empathy check because to me it sounds like you're saying that Superheroes should have let a situation escalate to godawful levels and endanger innocent lives because they didn't want to risk their own life and so they can learn from the experience. Surely you aren't saying that and I'm just being dumb right?

 

[Radix]

You appear to be reaching to drag the worst possible interpretation of me saying "put on" about somebody who is a helmet. I'd prefer you not.

I'm sorry I must be failing my empathy check because to me it sounds like you're saying that Superheroes should have let a situation escalate to godawful levels and endanger innocent lives because they didn't want to risk their own life and so they can learn from the experience. Surely you aren't saying that and I'm just being dumb right?

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So just to be clear, you think heroes should be willing to sacrifice their lives for the greater good? And yet you think that they shouldnt honor their agreement to Nabu that saves lives?

Like Zatanna is already generally an adult. It is not like he is missing her formative years.

Nabu seemed pretty reasonable. He noted the increase in magical threats at the tower. But he aceeded to let go as long as they agreed to find a host so he could go active again. That didnt. Instead they put him on a shelf until they needed him. And again he saved their asses. And again he let it go. And then they abuse him again to do things for them. So why shouldnt he be the one going around and actually saving the day? Especially since him being active actually saves lives compared to the reverse.

Nabu put up with 50 years of isolation. He saved lives. Him wanting to be active isnt just him wanting to improve his personal situation. Him being inactive endangers the world. Him sitting on tbe shelf is what enabled Roanoke.

 

[The Unaligned Player]

So just to be clear, you think heroes should be willing to sacrifice their lives for the greater good? And yet you think that they shouldnt honor their agreement to Nabu that saves lives?

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I consider the ability to sacrifice oneself for others an essential part of being a hero. I don' take that to mean we should let a sacrifice for the greater good persist when we could undo the sacrifice bit by offing the cunt entirely responsible for the sacrifice part existing at all.

Here's what I think is the difference between us. I consider Leonine Contracts to be worth less than nothing, tantamount to a slave collar that i'd rip someone's leg off for attempting to put me in. You apparently don't. With that fundamental difference in values I don't see how this conversation can continue productively.

 

[Radix]

I consider the ability to sacrifice oneself for others an essential part of being a hero. I don' take that to mean we should let a sacrifice for the greater good persist when we could undo the sacrifice bit by offing the cunt entirely responsible for the sacrifice part existing at all.

Here's what I think is the difference between us. I consider Leonine Contracts to be worth less than nothing, tantamount to a slave collar that i'd rip someone's leg off for attempting to put me in. You apparently don't. With that fundamental difference in values I don't see how this conversation can continue productively.

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Except that Nabu cant save the day without having a host. So that sacrifice is a necessary part.

And also keep on mind that part of the reason that Nabu is so draconian is because his last host completely screwed him over so hard, and the people on the present seemed poised to do the same thing, regardless of the danger it would cause the world by leaving him on the shelf.

Why would he give time away? They have proven several times not to hold up their end of the deals. They put their own self interest above the world.

And yes Nabu did a lot for the world. Even ignoring his sheer power, he had vast knowledge and experience that goes beyond what Quinn or Renegade Zatara could really do.

 

[w34v3r]

Nabu is equally responsible for the situation due to his own abuse of prior hosts, and not setting up any sort of legacy system because even if Kent Nelson had been a perfect host he still would have either died of old age or become a lord of order in his own right eventually.

 

[Wivk]

Radix 'Consenting' in the eyes of someone Lawful Neutral and lower.

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Are we talking about the time nabu had the entire planet as his hostages to pressure zatanna or when he had zatanna hostage to pressure zatarra?

 

[Mr Zoat]

Past Participant

15th September 2012
09:21 GMT -5

"How is Supergirl?"

I take a look around the Batcave interior as I approach Batman's main work station.

"Better. Not great. I've asked Zatanna to have a chat with her, which was a little awkward. Ah, if you don't mind me asking-?"

"I don't remember my actions under the influence of Starrotech." He switches tools as he continues his detailed examination of the H-Dial. "Other forms of mind control vary greatly in what the subject remembers. I remember clearly what I did under the influence of both Smilex and fear toxin."

"I remember everything the Ophidian and I did. The only reason that I don't remember everything we saw is that there was too much of it." I come to a halt on the other side of the work bench. "Any progress?"

"This technology is centuries ahead of anything native to Earth. But it's designed to look like a child's toy."

"If I had to guess, I'd say that it was a child's toy. The Reach were using humans as metahuman soldiers. Give things like that to a child when they're young, get them used to having their bodies suddenly changing and them needing to work out what they can do…"

"I doubt the Reach established a vast interstellar empire by expending resources unproductively."

"They're rich. They can throw away-" I start taking another look around, then stop myself. "-resources other people can't comprehend if it advances their goals. If a few dozen children die and they get one really useful metahuman out of it, that's well worth it. And they're good enough at social conditioning to make their serfs accept that reasoning."

"I'm more interested in detecting its use."

"Why?" I shrug. "That's not our future any more. That comes from what is now an alternate timeline, and there won't be any more."

"The Chinese don't like sharing intelligence data, but they've been raided by both durlans and dominators. Human biological data is already out in the galaxy."

"Neither of those races are going to share it. Dominators don't use proxies and.. durlans are severely endangered."

"Social changes happen. Or the durlans might get an offer they can't afford to refuse. Are you sure that the Reach wouldn't pay for information on your homeworld?"

"I suppose they… They probably would. But there's no flow of information from here to there. Local trade networks don't go that far, sensors don't reach that far…"

"You don't believe they could send ships here?"

"No, they totally could, but it's a very long way and there's no real reason for them to do so. I've mentioned Earth's name, but I haven't done anything that would lead them here."

"You brought a fleet here. How do you know they weren't monitored?"

I shrug. "By what? They'd probably know that the ships left, but there's next to no residue to track and they don't have monitoring equipment this far from their space. All communication from the ships are monitored and only the bridge crew get their actual location. And you better believe that the crew are thoroughly vetted."

"Very well."

"Any news on the assassination attempt?"

"I haven't been able to find anyone working on a weapon like the one you described. There's no chatter in the Gotham underworld about what happened."

He carefully runs a miniature vacuum nozzle along the holes in the dial.

"No one saw anything out of the ordinary. No one knows anything. If I were you, I would check to see if any members of the former government of the Alignment hired an assassin from off-world."

"No. The ones who survived the purge know they're being closely monitored, and the ones who didn't… Didn't. But, thank you. It's nice to know that for once no one is throwing weapons at the Gotham underworld and seeing what happens."

"It's certainly a change of pace."

"Have you tried that yourself?"

"No. I won't be attempting human trials for weeks, if at all. Everyone who used a variant of this device suffered psychological damage from repeated transformations."

I nod. Fair enough. Compared to abilities we can already produce… A random low-tier super power each time isn't all that useful. I could check it more myself, but if I'm not planning on spending much time in Gotham…

"Can I ask you a personal question?"

His eyes flick towards me for an instant before returning to the Dial.

"Yes."

"Have you ever thought about retiring from superheroism? I mean… When you started, Gotham's police department were mob enforcers in uniforms and Falcone ruled the city. Now the police are actually reasonably good at their jobs, the old crime families are gone, and… Even your supervillains are reasonably under control. You've pretty much won."

"I'm functionally insane, remember?"

"So..?"

"So it doesn't matter. There's always more work to do and I'm always driven to do it."

"Even if you could do more good doing something else?"

"Such as?"

"Running for political office, for example."

"It's a little late for an Oval Office bid."

"The mayor's office. Or the governor's. With the disruption to international trade, there's an opportunity to bring industry back to the US; to reverse the events that resulted in it becoming a high crime city in the first place. High employment means less crime. Gotham's problems could be completely solved."

"Have you ever thought about retiring?"

"I retire the moment I'm more of an impediment to my objectives than a boon. Not sure what I'd do with my time instead, but I'd be satisfied to see our civilisation improving."

"It wouldn't work for me. Without the violence, it doesn't feel like I'm making a difference. The proximate cause of my parents' death was a violent thug, and that association is indelibly linked in my mind. Even if I was completely certain that there was a better way to fight crime, a better way to bring about the world my parents would want for me, I wouldn't be able to do it. That's why it chilled me to hear that you considered becoming more like me a desirable option. To say nothing of what actually happened."

"I guess mentally stable people don't dress up in bright costumes and punch evildoers in the face."

"On the contrary. In my experience the people who take the route I was forced down and you chose for yourself are in the minority."

"But if you really think it's that bad for people… Why stay on it? You can change."

For a moment he stops working on the Dial and looks directly at me.

"Just because I realise that it's a bad way to live, that doesn't mean that I actually want to change. I like being Batman in a way that I've never liked being anything else."

I nod, turning away.

"And I'm the last person who'll criticise you for that. Thank you for your help."

 

[Ngamer11]

I've asked Zatanna to have a chat with her, which was a little awkward.

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I really wish we could see that conversation. Can someone make an omake about this please?

The Chinese don't like share intelligence data, but they've been raided by both durlans and dominators.

Click to shrink...

That should say 'sharing'.

"Have you ever thought about retiring?"

"I retire the moment I'm more of an impediment to my objectives than a boon. Not sure what I'd do with my time instead, but I'd be satisfied to see our civilisation improving."

"It wouldn't work for me. Without the violence, it doesn't feel like I'm making a difference. The proximate cause of my parents' death was a violent thug, and that association is indelibly linked in my mind. Even if I was completely certain that there was a better way to fight crime, a better way to bring about the world my parents would want for me, I wouldn't be able to do it. That's why it chilled me to hear that you considered becoming more like me a desirable option. To say nothing of what actually happened."

"I guess mentally stable people don't dress up in bright costumes and punch evildoers in the face."

"On the contrary. In my experience the people who take the route I was forced down and you chose for yourself are in the minority."

"But if you really think it's that bad for people… Why stay on it? You can change."

For a moment he stops working on the Dial and looks directly at me.

"Just because I realise that it's a bad way to live, that doesn't mean that I actually want to change. I like being Batman in a way that I've never liked being anything else."

I nod, turning away.

"And I'm the last person who'll criticise you for that. Thank you for your help."

Click to shrink...

I'm surprised at how self-aware Batman is, and the fact that, by his own admission, he and Paul are very similar. I hope you change your mind about Batman and Paul having a strained relationship in the future, because this is pretty nice. Also, since Batman's so self-aware and intelligent, he should know beforehand that there are things that they're never going to agree with, but that shouldn't stop their ability to work together.

 

[Darko]

I remember everything the Ophidian and I did. The only reason that I don't remember everything we saw is that there was too much of it

Click to shrink...

Yeah, the thousands of eyeballs probably had something to do with that.

"I'm more interested in detecting its use."

"Why?" I shrug. "That's not our future any more. That comes from what is now an alternate timeline, and there won't be any more

Click to shrink...

But Truggs may have figured out how to replicate it, so it would be good to be able to detect it.

. Are you sure that the Reach wouldn't pay for information on your homeworld?"

"I suppose they… They probably would. But there's no flow of information from here to there

Click to shrink...

Except for the Light.

And whoever sold that supervillain tech to aliens, which was probably the Light.

If I were you, I would check to see if any members of the former government of the Alignment hired an assassin from off-world."

"No. The ones who survived the purge know they're being closely monitored, and the ones who didn't… Didn't

Click to shrink...

And the other ones are stranded on a planet with minimal technology.

 

[doug89]

15th September 2011
09:21 GMT -5

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Is that meant to be 2012?

 

[Katillno]

Well at least he's acknowledged it even if it probably won't result in anything more then him potentially retiring a few years before he did in Batman beyond oh wait life extension medication and tech and magic are probably gonna advance significantly more then normal from all the changes so the odds of him encountering some method of life extension/anti aging that he approves of is significant he could still be Batman for decades or even centuries (or forever however insignificant the chance) beyond what is typically of a Bruce Wayne's in the multiverse

 

[Coltsguy]

I'll admit I kinda teared up at how much I liked this last chapter.

 

[Bud-E]

Wait the Reach made H-Dials when was this established?

 

[Prince Charon]

Wait the Reach made H-Dials when was this established?

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Yeah. That's not a take that I've seen before. I mean, it's possible that we're both misreading it and Paul was using the Reach as an example, but it really looks like the story is saying that the H-Dial is made by the Reach.

 

[DrThoth]

Paragon knows the Free Lancers probably came to Earth, and that they were in pretty significant contact with the Reach. So it seems fairly credible they'd have an idea of the planet, even if they currently can't do anything about it.

I hope that someone has upgraded satellites etc. to track things like stealth Reach infiltrators though.

Paragon knows there's a Scarab on Earth, right? Even if he doesn't really remember the details from the comics?

 

[Chojin Patriarch]

Past Participant

15th September 2012
09:21 GMT -5

"How is Supergirl?"

I take a look around the Batcave interior as I approach Batman's main work station.

Click to shrink...

Hmm... An interesting title. I get the feeling there's going to be something temporal involved here... At any rate, I figured a debrief with Batman would likely be involved, after all that happened last episode. At least everyone involved has had a good night's sleep to work through things.

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

"Better. Not great. I've asked Zatanna to have a chat with her, which was a little awkward. Ah, if you don't mind me asking-?"

"I don't remember my actions under the influence of Starrotech." He switches tools as he continues his detailed examination of the H-Dial. "Other forms of mind control vary greatly in what the subject remembers. I remember clearly what I did under the influence of both Smilex and fear toxin."

Click to shrink...

Great, two young ladies with crushes on OL commiserating over how that lead to them being zapped by mind-altering energies... And I'm surprised Bats is looking over the dial. Then again, it's probably safer here than anywhere else on Earth, given the Light's ability to raid other secure sites

"I remember everything the Ophidian and I did. The only reason that I don't remember everything we saw is that there was too much of it." I come to a halt on the other side of the work bench. "Any progress?"

"This technology is centuries ahead of anything native to Earth. But it's designed to look like a child's toy."

Click to shrink...

Heh. Memories too great for any mortal kind, eh? On the other hand, you would have been seeing all of humanity in all its glory and horrors. And few people can cope with the latter in its entirety.

"If I had to guess, I'd say that it was a child's toy. The Reach were using humans as metahuman soldiers. Give things like that to a child when they're young, get them used to having their bodies suddenly changing and them needing to work out what they can do…"

"I doubt the Reach established a vast interstellar empire by expending resources unproductively."

Click to shrink...

...Would go some way to explaining the bizarre variety of some of the forms. Still, I get the feeling the Reach weren't responsible for the dial, they merely made use of it...

"They're rich. They can throw away-" I start taking another look around, then stop myself. "-resources other people can't comprehend if it advances their goals. If a few dozen children die and they get one really useful metahuman out of it, that's well worth it. And they're good enough at social conditioning to make their serfs accept that reasoning."

"I'm more interested in detecting its use."

Click to shrink...

Yeah, Batman's probably not the best comparison on that aspect of his work. Ah, good old Bats, always expecting the worst, and being... I won't say pleasantly surprised, he's rarely happy outside of certain circumstances, but... Let's go with 'satisfied' when things go well.

"Why?" I shrug. "That's not our future any more. That comes from what is now an alternate timeline, and there won't be any more."

"The Chinese don't like share intelligence data, but they've been raided by both durlans and dominators. Human biological data is already out in the galaxy."

Click to shrink...

And probably confusing scientists who look into it. "You say these 'urflings' can manifest all manner of strange abilities from exposure to things that should kill them? Not with this genetic makeup! I just can't explain it!"

"Neither of those races are going to share it. Dominators don't use proxies and.. durlans are severely endangered."

"Social changes happen. Or the durlans might get an offer they can't afford to refuse. Are you sure that the Reach wouldn't pay for information on your homeworld?"

Click to shrink...

I'm sure they would. But OL is kind of relying on 'secrecy through obscurity' here... No-one would look twice at a little blue mudball whose dominant species has barely left their own atmosphere. I suppose that's the plan, anyway.

"I suppose they… They probably would. But there's no flow of information from here to there. Local trade networks don't go that far, sensors don't reach that far…"

"You don't believe they could send ships here?"

Click to shrink...

That kind of move would get them travelling through more than a few Guardian-claimed sectors. Even if their ships are sneaky, someone's going to notice and take note.

"No, they totally could, but it's a very long way and there's no real reason for them to do so. I've mentioned Earth's name, but I haven't done anything that would lead them here."

"You brought a fleet here. How do you know they weren't monitored?"

Click to shrink...

That is a good point, but really, do you know how hard it is to track a fleet in interstellar space, Bats? Once they're out of light-speed contact (whether visual or sensors) they're going to be hard to spot without near-omniscient tech.

I shrug. "By what? They'd probably know that the ships left, but there's next to no residue to track and they don't have monitoring equipment this far from their space. All communication from the ships are monitored and only the bridge crew get their actual location. And you better believe that the crew are thoroughly vetted."

"Very well."

Click to shrink...

Well, sounds like his concerns are mollified.. for now. Though you know he's just itching to throw this in OL's face the next time an alien fleet turns up...

"Any news on the assassination attempt?"

"I haven't been able to find anyone working on a weapon like the one you described. There's no chatter in the Gotham underworld about what happened."

Click to shrink...

So it wasn't a local. Not surprising, given the tech involved.

He carefully runs a miniature vacuum nozzle along the holes in the dial.

"No one saw anything out of the ordinary. No one knows anything. If I were you, I would check to see if any members of the former government of the Alignment hired an assassin from off-world."

Click to shrink...

...Huh. They would have a motive to have OL killed. We saw the opportunity. Who knows how long the shooter was waiting around for OL to show his face... But Means?

"No. The ones who survived the purge know they're being closely monitored, and the ones who didn't… Didn't. But, thank you. It's nice to know that for once no one is throwing weapons at the Gotham underworld and seeing what happens."

"It's certainly a change of pace."

Click to shrink...

The usual misfits being well-behaved then? Those not secure in Arkham, Blackgate or Belle Reve...

"Have you tried that yourself?"

"No. I won't be attempting human trials for weeks, if at all. Everyone who used a variant of this device suffered psychological damage from repeated transformations."

Click to shrink...

That is true. I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't cause some manner of dismorphia. Like, you don't feel right without the rush of transformation and the strange new form it brings... Certainly, the few we've seen who used it are... Not exactly the most stable people.

I nod. Fair enough. Compared to abilities we can already produce… A random low-tier super power each time isn't all that useful. I could check it more myself, but if I'm not planning on spending much time in Gotham…

"Can I ask you a personal question?"

Click to shrink...

Who knows, maybe Hinon would find it entertaining for a couple of minutes? If nothing else, you could gauge how well it works away from Earth, and on non-humans.

His eyes flick towards me for an instant before returning to Dial.

"Yes."

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...Why do I get the feeling you might regret agreeing in a few minutes, Bruce...

"Have you ever thought about retiring from superheroism? I mean… When you started, Gotham's police department were mob enforcers in uniforms and Falcone ruled the city. Now the police are actually reasonably good at their jobs, the old crime families are gone, and… Even your supervillains are reasonably under control. You've pretty much won."

"I'm functionally insane, remember?"

Click to shrink...

...I won't lie, OL deserved that. Though surely you wouldn't mind having more time to spend with Talia, hmm?

"So..?"

"So it doesn't matter. There's always more work to do and I'm always driven to do it."

Click to shrink...

Just don't feel comfortable unless you're on a case, huh? I'm reminded of another great detective. Admittedly, he didn't run around London dressed like a Bat... Just enjoyed some recreational drug use and fiddling with his violin...

"Even if you could do more good doing something else?"

"Such as?"

"Running for political office, for example."

Click to shrink...

Batman for mayor! Or rather, Bruce Wayne for mayor... It would be interesting, see him follow in his father's footsteps with a more philanthropic leadership for Gotham.

"It's a little late for an Oval Office bid."

"The mayor's office. Or the governor's. With the disruption to international trade, there's an opportunity to bring industry back to the US; to reverse the events that resulted in it becoming a high crime city in the first place. High employment means less crime. Gotham's problems could be completely solved."

Click to shrink...

And then what would Bruce Wayne be, without the need to be Batman? I suppose he could go in a more 'Brave and the Bold' direction, bringing the 'Hammers of Justice' to the world...

"Have you ever thought about retiring?"

"I retire the moment I'm more of an impediment to my objectives than a boon. Not sure what I'd do with my time instead, but I'd be satisfied to see our civilisation improving."

Click to shrink...

Maybe go dimension-travelling, looking for interesting potential Lanterns. I mean, we do know he eventually goes on a walkabout in about a thousand years' time...

"It wouldn't work for me. Without the violence, it doesn't feel like I'm making a difference. The proximate cause of my parents' death was a violent thug, and that association is indelibly linked in my mind. Even if I was completely certain that there was a better way to fight crime, a better way to bring about the world my parents would want for me, I wouldn't be able to do it. That's why it chilled me to hear that you considered becoming more like me a desirable option. To say nothing of what actually happened."

Click to shrink...

Okay, who are you and what did you do with the real Batman? But seriously, it feels weird to see him so... Self-aware. I guess marriage and eventual fatherhood have him being a bit more introspective...

"I guess mentally stable people don't dress up in bright costumes and punch evildoers in the face."

"On the contrary. In my experience the people who take the route I was forced down and you chose for yourself are in the minority."

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Hey, you chose to embark on a lifelong crusade to make sure no-one would suffer the way you did. No-one would have faulted you for deciding to live up to your playboy persona, if not for your own determination. Bit of a 'Character is what you are in the dark' moment, really...

"But if you really think it's that bad for people… Why stay on it? You can change."

For a moment he stops working on the Dial and looks directly at me.

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And that's an armour-piercing question if ever I heard one.

"Just because I realise that it's a bad way to live, that doesn't mean that I actually want to change. I like being Batman in a way that I've never liked being anything else."

I nod, turning away.

"And I'm the last person who'll criticise you for that. Thank you for your help."

Click to shrink...

Indeed. That is... an impressive level of self-actualisation. No wonder the Bat-Dad is so awesome. This is a Batman who knows he could quit, but keeps on because he enjoys it... Not necessarily the horrific parts, but he enjoys the challenge, the mental and physical challenge of, well, being Batman.

Well, whatever will happen to sour their relationship over the years, it didn't start here... Maybe? Ooh, maybe in a few years, OL discovers batman is basically lying to himself for some reason. Maybe after Dick becomes Nightwing, and Jason Todd meets his eventual fate, and Bats chooses to focus on The Job rather than his wife and child (because sooner or later, Talia will get pregnant, surely... Whether Helena, Damien, Bruce Junior or some other offspring.) I could see OL being displeased with that kind of hypocrisy, especially after this scene...

 

[Ngamer11]

Paragon knows there's a Scarab on Earth, right? Even if he doesn't really remember the details from the comics?

Click to shrink...

He doesn't actually. He tried looking for it, but he misremembered Jaime's name as Jamie, and he never asked Ted about it.

 

[Handlewithcare]

Woa, self-aware Batman