With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Ngamer11]

What do you mean?

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He means the succupire named Paul. As a result, the Renegade has to call him lad or other terms, even in his head

 

[Pinklestia]

I want more of this.

Also what do human like vampires turn into when using the mirror?

 

[ForeverShogo]

Honestly, I prefer pictures 1 and 2 from that "flat is justice" post. Mostly just because I feel like it makes more sense for Luna to be light skinned to the point of being pale as part of the whole moon theme, and for Celestia to be the one who would have any kind of brownness. Though even then I still kind of picture her as a white person with a tan. (Kind of a funny coincidence that Luna's VA is ginger.)

Doesn't help when you have shit like Zecora acting like she came out of a Victorian novel about "Darkest Africa", so I end up thinking of Zebras as the stand in for Africans.

 

[Mr Zoat]

7th October 2012
15:15 GMT

"…that while there isn't any legislation to that effect, the Alignment effectively has-. Had, rather, a command economy."

Jaggar Ton leads the way down the temporary road laid between the fields in this part of the colony's newly planted farm cluster. Bleez has actually dressed in a somewhat modest fashion, which given that this is nearly a prison is probably for the best. It's not just humans where the male half of the species commit the majority of the crimes. The road is.. like the rollable plastic lattice that they sometimes lay over grass they don't want to destroy on Earth, only a good deal more advanced.

Jade narrows her eyes slightly as she looks over a group of men erecting a fence.

"Who got sent here?"

"Alignment society was completely corrupt. My advice was to harshly punish the worst offenders and let everyone else off with a suspended sentence. Xalitan wouldn't accept letting people guilty of any crimes go free, and my daughter and their organisation backed him." Mr. Ton shrugs. "I can hardly complain about him rejecting my judgement."

Bleez frowns. "Why?"

Mr. Ton frowns at me for a moment before giving her his full attention. "I assumed that the Illustres told you. Xalitan was wrongly sent to prison for murdering my wife after I was told by the actual killers that my daughter would be next if I didn't implicate him."

I nod. "Xalitan isn't happy that he wasn't given the choice to metaphorically throw himself on his sword. And then there's the false witness thing. If they're clearing house, then even if he understands why Mister Ton did it, it's still perjury. Still a perversion of the legal system."

"Is your daughter okay?"

Mr. Ton gives Bleez a small smile. "Yes, thank you for asking. I always hoped that her intelligence would take her a long way… And then when she began opposing the state I hoped that it would be enough to keep her alive. I never thought it would take her quite as far as Grand Convenor, especially at this age, but I suspect that she's the best person for the job."

"What's a 'Grand Convenor'?"

"In theory, it's someone who brings political representatives together to debate matters of governance. But if you look at our history it didn't take long for it to become synonymous with being the head of our government. In the normal run of things she wouldn't have the experience or power to hold the post… But we're very far from normal times."

Jade takes another look around. "You're sending corrupt politicians to learn to farm?"

"Anyone indicted on charges of… Essentially, of being involved in a corrupt system, but not personally being so evil that it's worth charging them individually, was given the option to plead guilty and take a transportation sentence instead of anything more brutal." He makes a small gesture with his right hand to indicate the fields. "This is a good deal more habitable than where Xalitan himself was sent, and we're not isolated to anything like the same extent."

"'We'? Did you take the deal, too?"

"I took a deal, but I'm a tier down from them. Someone blackmailed into committing crimes that were of sufficient magnitude that letting us stay where we are wasn't really an option, but where we don't really deserve harsh punishment. So I get to oversee this place for a decade or so." He shrugs. "I doubt that I'll miss the homeworld all that much. Not a lot of good memories, and too many bad ones."

"Is it permanent?"

"For them? Yes. For me? No, my appointment has a definite end date, and I can leave for a little while. But I can't simply resign and go somewhere else."

Jade nods. "How are you enforcing that?"

"Seizure of assets, lack of communication equipment and the fact that there isn't anyone left at liberty who might be inclined to help them. Xalitan is enacting a root and branch reform. If he missed anyone, I doubt that they'd be prepared to risk themselves to help someone who couldn't offer them anything in return. And they aren't soldiers or scientists or engineers; not people who could offer something to a party outside of Alignment society which might result in their evacuation."

"But I doubt that you're popular if your daughter's the one who put them here. What's to stop them coming after you?"

"I'd like the answer to be that they're too rational. With no one here to exploit, some of them are going to have to work the farms whatever happens, and the old hierarchy has been destroyed. There's no leadership. If I'm killed, what happens?"

"The representative of the government which put them here is dead." Jade regards him levelly. "Only one person has to make an impulsive decision."

"We haven't had our first crop yet. If I die, everyone here gets to fight each other for the food they'd need to live until harvest, and they get to do it without any replacement parts for their tools, or for anything else. I'm the only one armed and armoured. I have a small supply of strike drones and one is-" He glances up. "-always on station, and I can call in reinforcements if I need them. Doing that would result in the summary execution of everyone here with a transportation sentence, so I expect that they'll deal with rogue elements themselves."

"What about next year?"

"Next year the first wave of people actually sentenced to transportation by a court will arrive. These farms are training for the full-sized farms that we will be setting up. We will still need to bring food in for the next five years or so. After that, I assume that they will have acclimatised to this lifestyle."

Bleez frowns as she peers at the labourers.

"Where are the old ones?"

"It varies. Older politicians and civil servants were more likely to occupy senior positions, so a lot of them are awaiting trial and execution. Some were given jobs requiring less manual labour, though those have very strict attainment targets. This isn't supposed to be an easy option. If they're too decrepit to cope with any sort of labour, they could volunteer for a life sentence in a Class C prison."

Jade raises her eyebrows slightly. "'Class C'? Is that Alignment minimum security?"

"It should in theory be just as secure as the other classifications. The difference is that the regime is less harsh. The Alignment traditionally doesn't usually imprison people for extended periods of time; it's usually transportation or execution. Long term imprisonment is for government officials who might find themselves returned to power if things shift a little."

"Huh." Bleez smiles. "I mean, don't take this the wrong way? But it's kind of nice to hear about somewhere worse than Thanagar."

Mr. Ton nods. "I imagine that it is. Is Thanagar fixing itself?"

"No, but that's why I'm here. I want to help fix Thanagar!"

"The planet, the Empire or the species?"

"The-. The planet." Bleez frowns at him. "What do you think's wrong with our species?"

"You're dependent on Nth metal for your flight ability and strength. Nth metal doesn't exist outside of Thanagarian space. My species can live anywhere that most other humanoid species can. What happens when the people of Thanagar are born elsewhere?"

Bleez bows her head, her wings twitching up as if she were going to mantle herself.

"Congenital deformities. Horrible ones. And sometimes the mother dies too. But I'm a singer and songwriter and pretty decent economist. I'm not a doctor."

"We could do with some economists. Most of the ones we had are on farms like this."

"So you could use some more?"

Mr. Ton shrugs. "I'm a farm overseer. It's not my decision. But I think so. I don't know if anyone is keeping track of things. Last time I checked, our major industries were running on momentum and a lack of competition."

"Would your people accept Thanagarians working on that?"

"That depends where they were coming from."

"Havania."

"I don't know where that is."

"It's one of the old colonies?"

Mr. Ton frowns. "Don't the old Thanagarian colonies have slaves?"

"A-hhhhh..?"

"I see." His frown deepens. "Then I think you should probably get your own world set to rights before getting involved with ours."

 

[Darko]

here. What's to stop them coming after you?"

"I'd like the answer to be that they're too rational. With no one here to exploit, some of them are going to have to work the farms whatever happens, and the old hierarchy has been destroyed. There's no leadership. If I'm killed, what happens

Click to shrink...

They still may try to kill you out of spite.

Only one person has to made an impulsive decision."

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'has to make'

 

[Handlewithcare]

I don't think you could just use an economist from another species,even without such a culture clash.

There are too many racial biases. The outside perspective may be useful, but too many nuances would be missed.

I mean, even on earth we need specialists for different countries and those fail regularly too.

In Havania's case especially it's an economy using slaves. That's a rather severely different economical model.

 

[moralrelativity]

If he missed anyone, I doubt that they'd be prepared to risk themselves to help someone who couldn't offer them anything in return.
And they aren't soldiers or scientists or engineers; not people who could offer something to a party outside of Alignment society which might result in their evacuation.

Click to shrink...

Inadvertent line-break?

 

[Chojin Patriarch]

7th October 2012
15:15 GMT

"…that while there isn't any legislation to that effect, the Alignment effectively has-. Had, rather, a command economy."

Jaggar Ton leads the way down the temporary road laid between the fields in this part of the colony's newly planted farm cluster. Bleez has actually dressed in a somewhat modest fashion, which given that this is nearly a prison is probably for the best. It's not just humans where the male half of the species commit the majority of the crimes. The road is.. like the rollable plastic lattice that they sometimes lay over grass they don't want to destroy on Earth, only a good deal more advanced.

Click to shrink...

Getting a first-hand experience of the punishment being doled out for minor involvement in the previous Alignment government's corruption, eh? An off-world colony in need of numbers to handle the grunt work is probably a good way to make them useful.

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

Jade narrows her eyes slightly as she looks over a group of men erecting a fence.

"Who got sent here?"

Click to shrink...

I would expect any assumption of 'I'm too good to waste my time on farm work' has long since been drummed out of them. After all, 'no work, no food.' is a good motivator to change.

"Alignment society was completely corrupt. My advice was to harshly punish the worse offenders and let everyone else off with a suspended sentence. Xalitan wouldn't accept letting people guilty of any crimes go free, and my daughter and their organisation backed him." Mr. Ton shrugs. "I can hardly complain about him rejecting my judgement."

Bleez frowns. "Why?"

Click to shrink...

Let people get off scot-free? Yeah, I don't see anything changing if that happens. They'd just go 'Well, guess I need to be sneakier about gaining money and power' and cover up harder.

Mr. Ton frowns at me for a moment before giving her his full attention. "I assumed that the Illustres told you. Xalitan was wrongly sent to prison for murdering my wife after I was told by the actual killers that my daughter would be next if I didn't implicate him."

I nod. "Xalitan isn't happy that he wasn't given the choice to metaphorically throw himself on his sword. And then there's the false witness thing. If they're clearing house, then even if he understands why Mister Ton did it, it's still perjury. Still a perversion of the legal system."

Click to shrink...

On the up side, at least he's around to fix things now and make an honest culture out of the Alignment.

"Is your daughter okay?"

Mr. Ton gives Bleez a small smile. "Yes, thank you for asking. I always hoped that her intelligence would take her a long way… And then when she began opposing the state I hoped that it would be enough to keep her alive. I never thought it would take her quite as far as Grand Convenor, especially at this age, but I suspect that she's the best person for the job."

Click to shrink...

It helps that her boyfriend - assuming Xalitan hasn't formalised things by now - is the biggest stick in the reformation's toolbox.

"What's a 'Grand Convenor'?"

"In theory, it's someone who brings political representatives together to debate matters of governance. But if you look at our history it didn't take long for it to become synonymous with being the head of our government. In the normal run of things she wouldn't have the experience or power to hold the post… But we're very far from normal times."

Click to shrink...

And in the old days, they would have been one of the most corrupt members of the government? After all, if your word carries a lot of weight in the halls of rulership, then it would take a lot of gold to swing it in a particular direction.

Jade takes another look around. "You're sending corrupt politicians to learn to farm?"

"Anyone indicted on charges of… Essentially, of being involved in a corrupt system, but not personally being so evil that it's worth charging them individually, was given the option to plead guilty and take a transportation sentence instead of anything more brutal." He makes a small gesture with his right hand to indicate the fields. "This is a good deal more habitable than where Xalitan himself was sent, and we're not isolated to anything like the same extent."

Click to shrink...

And they can make themselves useful actually building things and growing things. I wonder if any of them are finding a newfound comfort in the simple life?

"'We'? Did you take the deal, too?"

"I took a deal, but I'm a tier down from them. Someone blackmailed into committing crimes that were of sufficient magnitude that letting us stay where we are wasn't really an option, but where we don't really deserve harsh punishment. So I get to oversee this place for a decade or so." He shrugs. "I doubt that I'll miss the homeworld all that much. Not a lot of good memories, and too many bad ones."

Click to shrink...

I'm sure there were. So, to some degree, it's a reward for getting caught up in what he did.

"Is it permanent?"

"For them? Yes. For me? No, my appointment has a definite end date, and I can leave for a little while. But I can't simply resign and go somewhere else."

Click to shrink...

And afterwards? What happens after you've served your time? Will you return to see your family? Or stay here, where you've invested so much effort?

Jade nods. "How are you enforcing that?"

"Seizure of assets, lack of communication equipment and the fact that there isn't anyone left at liberty who might be inclined to help them. Xalitan is enacting a root and branch reform. If he missed anyone, I doubt that they'd be prepared to risk themselves to help someone who couldn't offer them anything in return. And they aren't soldiers or scientists or engineers; not people who could offer something to a party outside of Alignment society which might result in their evacuation."

Click to shrink...

At least now they're useful.

"But I doubt that you're popular if your daughter's the one who put them here. What's to stop them coming after you?"

"I'd like the answer to be that they're too rational. With no one here to exploit, some of them are going to have to work the farms whatever happens, and the old hierarchy has been destroyed. There's no leadership. If I'm killed, what happens?"

Click to shrink...

And anyone likely to be uppity about their new position would probably get bullied into playing along. Even if it's in a crab bucket scenario.

"The representative of the government which put them here is dead." Jade regards him levelly. "Only one person has to made an impulsive decision."

"We haven't had our first crop yet. If I die, everyone here gets to fight each other for the food they'd need to live until harvest, and they get to do it without any replacement parts for their tools, or for anything else. I'm the only one armed and armoured. I have a small supply of strike drones and one is-" He glances up. "-always on station, and I can call in reinforcements if I need them. Doing that would result in the summary execution of everyone here with a transportation sentence, so I expect that they'll deal with rogue elements themselves."

Click to shrink...

Ah, there's a good way to stay safe. The threat of being casually annihilated from afar. Kind of the epitome of 'speak softly, but carry a big stick.'

"What about next year?"

"Next year the first wave of people actually sentenced to transportation by a court will arrive. These farms are training for the full-sized farms that we will be setting up. We will still need to bring food in for the next five years or so. After that, I assume that they will have acclimatised to this lifestyle."

Click to shrink...

It would take a positively operatic mind to hold a grudge that long.

Bleez frowns as she peers at the labourers.

"Where are the old ones?"

Click to shrink...

As if the oldest, highest placed politicians wouldn't be the dirtiest parties... I expect there's plenty of blood on their hands to be paid for.

"It varies. Older politicians and civil servants were more likely to occupy senior positions, so a lot of them are awaiting trial and execution. Some were given jobs requiring less manual labour, though those have very strict attainment targets. This isn't supposed to be an easy option. If they're too decrepit to cope with any sort of labour, they could volunteer for a life sentence in a Class C prison."

Jade raises her eyebrows slightly. "'Class C'? Is that Alignment minimum security?"

Click to shrink...

I'm guessing Class A was where Xor was headed for. Though I doubt the classes mean anything like they used to.

"It should in theory be just as secure as the other classifications. The difference is that the regime is less harsh. The Alignment traditionally doesn't usually imprison people for extended periods of time; it's usually transportation or execution. Long term imprisonment is for government officials who might find themselves returned to power if things shift a little."

"Huh." Bleez smiles. "I mean, don't take this the wrong way? But it's kind of nice to hear about somewhere worse than Thanagar."

Click to shrink...

Well, it's kind of fair. If you're not a danger, you get to make yourself useful to society. If you are, well... You won't be for long. The big issue was who was in charge of deciding that, though...

Mr. Ton nods. "I imagine that it is. Is Thanagar fixing itself?"

"No, but that's why I'm here. I want to help fix Thanagar!"

Click to shrink...

Big dream, kiddo. Possibly too big for a regular person.

"The planet, the Empire or the species?"

"The-. The planet." Bleez frowns at him. "What do you think's wrong with our species?"

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I'm surprised they aren't methane breathers, given how many seem to breathing their own farts, with their heads so far up their asses.

"You're dependent on Nth metal for your flight ability and strength. Nth metal doesn't exist outside of Thanagarian space. My species can live anywhere that most other humanoid species can. What happens when the people of Thanagar are born elsewhere?"

Bleez bows her head, her wings twitching up as if she were going to mantle herself.

Click to shrink...

Probably nothing good. I'm reminded of Asari from Mass Effect, who need trace amounts of Eezo - a dark matter-related mineral - in their diets, especially if they're pregnant, to be considered healthy (whether that's fanon or not, it makes sense...) For reference, the kind of quantities they safely consume are enough to cause cancer in other species...

"Congenital deformities. Horrible ones. And sometimes the mother dies too. But I'm a singer and songwriter and pretty decent economist. I'm not a doctor."

"We could do with some economists. Most of the ones we had are on farms like this."

Click to shrink...

Seriously, that cannot be an entirely natural biology.

"So you could use some more?"

Mr. Ton shrugs. "I'm a farm overseer. It's not my decision. But I think so. I don't know if anyone is keeping track of things. Last time I checked, our major industries were running on momentum and a lack of competition."

Click to shrink...

And that doesn't generally lend itself to pleasant outcomes, especially if the people running them are as profit-oriented as the government employees were.

"Would your people accept Thanagarians working on that?"

"That depends where they were coming from."

Click to shrink...

And how well they're briefed on both the quirks of Alignment economies and their racial character.

"Havania."

"I don't know where that is."

Click to shrink...

HEh, little let-down for Bleez. She's used to being known on sight, isn't she?

"It's one of the old colonies?"

Mr. Ton frowns. "Don't the old Thanagarian colonies have slaves?"

Click to shrink...

...Awkward.

"A-hhhhh..?"

"I see." His frown deepens. "Then I think you should probably get your own world set to rights before getting involved with ours."

Click to shrink...

Ah, the old paradox. You need to do this to achieve that. But to achieve that, you have to do this.

A nice look at what happened to the moderately-offensive people Xor overthrew. Those who weren't the worst or the best. At least they're getting treated fairly, instead of being tarred with the same brush as their nastier superiors. That kind of thing might lead to resentment. And hopefully Bleez is getting some good ideas about how to handle her side of things when she eventually gets a hold of the reins. Bonus, it sound like a nice, picturesque place to visit as part of OL and Jade's holiday.

 

[Darko]

. I wonder if any of them are finding a newfound comfort in the simple life?

Click to shrink...

Well it may be better in some ways compared to all the politicking and scheming back home.

And afterwards? What happens after you've served your time? Will you return to see your family? Or stay here, where you've invested so much effort

Click to shrink...

They may return or they may stay if they like it here, or if they know they'll be shunned back home is my guess.

Or they may try to start farms back home.

Seriously, that cannot be an entirely natural biology.

Click to shrink...

I'm guessing it's because of the Seven Devils.

It could have been accidental or deliberate, like the Jaffa and their symbiotes.

Without their symbiotes the Jaffa would die so the Goa'uld had another way of controlling them aside from the brainwashing and propaganda.

That may be the case here with the Thanagarians and the Seven Devils.

If the Thanagarians rebelled against them then they'd lose their source of Nth Metal and thus eventually die out.

Though this does remind me of an episode from the 1995 Outer Limits.

Basically a bunch of humans get killed by the natives of a planet they settled on for stealing some precious minerals.

An offworld judge is called in to perform an unbiased trial and in the process they discover why the natives wanted the metal.

They needed it for their offspring to be born alive and healthy.

They'd place the minerals near the eggs and the radiation emitted by them would make sure the children are born whole and healthy.

 

[Mr Zoat]

'has to make'

Click to shrink...

Inadvertent line-break?

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Thank you, corrected.

And in the old days, they would have been one of the most corrupt members of the government?

Click to shrink...

No. To quote James Stephanie Sterling, it's working as intended.

 

[Rafin]

In Havania's case especially it's an economy using slaves. That's a rather severely different economical model.

Click to shrink...

I'm not an economist, but how different is it from a detached economical perspective? You have much lower minimum wages and aren't as worried about worker retention. But you also miss bottom tier consumers and need to buy more raw materials. Anything else?

 

[Stsword]

Seriously, that cannot be an entirely natural biology.

Click to shrink...

As stated above, yeah, probably the work of the Seven Devils here.

In DCAU, I suspect the Cthulhu expy Icthulu had a hand in it.

In a New Earth storyline, during a Hawkman and girl adventure, it seems Thanagarian evolution was pretty much the epitome of unnatural-

Hawkworld is seemingly magical pocket universe or something where Nth metal is plentiful, and evolution is wonky in that it is where the Lionmanes, Manhawks, and Lizarkons evolved from Earth lions, hawks, and lizards.

Then one day some humans from Earth went all Captain Kirk with the Manhawks and then left Hawkworld in a portal that opened up.

So apparently Thanagarians are descendants of magically evolved Earth hawks and humans magically transported to Thanagar.

Not exactly the Occam's razor approved explanation for winged humanoid aliens.

 

[Khornelius]

I would liken this chapter to a conversation between a failed retired villain and a redemtion seeking villain. The former is pointing out all their failings and the later can't think of an effective counterargument.

 

[Impatient_Quill]

I would liken this chapter to a conversation between a failed retired villain and a redemtion seeking villain. The former is pointing out all their failings and the later can't think of an effective counterargument.

Click to shrink...

I'm not sure if that is quite accurate. Jaggar Ton doesn't seem to have done anything that couldn't be argued away in an American courtroom. Duress is a viable defense for Perjury.

 

[Doccer]

What do you mean?

Click to shrink...

The kid named Paul and the godson named Gravyn.

 

[Mr Zoat]

7th October 2012
15:34 GMT

"Bur it!"

Bleez swoops down and punches a thick tree branch, splintering the living wood and causing the nearly-severed branch to flex and swing as it droops down from the trunk.

"I shouldn't have mentioned the slave thing." She turns around to look at us, flapping backwards so that she can sit on the remaining part of the branch still firmly attached to the trunk. "Right? I shouldn't have mentioned the slave thing?"

"He said it's not his decision."

"But wouldn't covering it up be worse?" She pulls her wings in around her. "I mean, it's not like I could get everyone to keep quiet about it."

"Then you put it in a briefing paper five hundred pages long, preferably in the appendix."

I stare at Jade in surprise.

"You told me you hadn't watched Yes Prime Minister!"

She gives me a small frown back. "I haven't. It's just an obvious technique to bury information that you have to provide but don't want to make prominent."

"What's 'Yes Prime Minister'?"

"It's a comedy television series where I'm from, about a government minister trying to enact policy in the face of opposition from the civil service. There's a joke in there that senior civil servants make sure that briefing papers are very long and then give them to ministers just before they need to make a decision in order to make sure that they don't read them and just go with what the civil service wants."

"Oh." Bleez frowns thoughtfully. "We don't really do that in the Thanagarian Empire."

"If you're trying to reform your society, it might be worth starting."

"I dunno. I think the Ravens might take issue with it. Open persuasion is one thing, but deliberately misleading the government starts to look a bit like treason. And I think some people in government are going to want to call it treason."

"Ravens?"

"The High Morr's personal spies and assassins."

"So Thanagarians do use cunning, it's just that your government prefers it if they're the only ones."

"They wouldn't be a government if just anyone could give out orders."

"I suggest being up front about it but separating yourself from the tradition. Something like… When you're describing how Havania's economy works, state that you realise that it's horrible and backwards but that you're not in a position to change it."

"What if they check?"

"Well, you wouldn't be lying. You're not in a position to change it. Do you actually want to keep slavery?"

"No? But I don't know if I'm ever going to be in a position to remove it."

"Do you know how my country got rid of slavery?"

"Violent revolution?"

"No. We got conquered by a culture which didn't have slavery and phased it out without any legislation at all."

Jade regards me sceptically.

"You told me you gave Rocket an hour-long lecture on the West Africa Squadron. That wasn't-."

"That was after we reintroduced it after about three hundred years by the back door due to the slaves coming from a long way away and most of the slaves being in overseas territories. We actually de facto abolished it before that, and neither exactly portray us in a positive light. The point-" I return my attention to Bleez. "-is, if you bring refugees in as unowned, people will get used to there being unowned aliens around, and you can just fold the aboriginals into that system a few decades down the line."

Bleez perks up slightly. "I could do that. I will do that."

"Well, let's… Get a system that works in place for the people of Downside before moving onto something else, because that's what everything's going to hinge on."

"I think most Havanian nobles would be fine with aliens working on farms like that. The aboriginals don't like working outside of swamps. Their skin can't really cope with direct sunlight for all that long."

"You don't have automated farming?"

"Thanagarians don't really use robots." Bleez shrugs, her wings in a slightly more normal position now. "And if we were going to go for high cost high efficiency automated farming, we'd probably go for some sort of huge hydroponics setup rather than something like-" She points her right arm at the farmland we just walked away from. "-that. I mean, I'm sure that it's a perfectly satisfying way to live, but the returns per unit land area aren't anything like as good and the quality is a lot more variable."

"But that sort of collective labour is good at building communities. I'm not sure how it works for thanagarians or lizarkons, but human brains struggle to cope with dense city living. There's actually a fairly low limit on the number of people we can get emotionally invested in, and it's fine for a relatively small village but really doesn't work for a city of a million people."

"Havania doesn't have a city of a million people. Even our largest industrial towns only go up to about a quarter of a million."

"Same principle. Ah, it would be for humans. I don't know enough about thanagarian psychology to know if it's the same. Do thanagarians prefer small settlements?"

"I grew up in a castle."

"A castle that's not located in a town or city. It's in the middle of the countryside."

"No, I mean, I don't really know what it's like to live like a regular thanagarian. I know, like, where they live because I've studied civic planning, but I've never spent any time there myself. And when I'm touring I'm living out of hotel rooms."

"In that case you need to research psychological literature on all of the species you're planning on introducing."

"Right. And you know how Overseer Ton said that they broke up coteries when they assigned them to new settlements? You think that's something I should do?"

"Yes, definitely. You're engineering settlements for maximum stability. Removing them from the context of their former lives will help make it a clean break."

Jade doesn't look convinced. "That's how it works for humans. It might not be the same for other species."

"Right, but if they're humanoid, it probably does."

"Right. I need more information on how the Alignment works. Are their government records publically available, or do I need to make a special request?"

"It's not that they're secret so much as the systems have broken down to the point that information isn't flowing. Hon.. estly, if it wasn't for Xalitan's power ring and moral clarity this would be a great opportunity for corruption."

"So I need to talk to him?"

"No, Onisia would be the ideal person, but I've got no idea who under her would actually be responsible. Let me find out for you."

 

[Darko]

Burr it!"

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If this isn't some Thanagarian curse word then it should be 'Burn it'

human brains struggles to cope with

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'struggle'

 

[Doccer]

echnique to buy informa

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bury

You are working fool!

 

[Vaermina]

Gotta love how Paragon just goes around making baseless assumptions about other races that somehow always turn out to be right.

 

[Handlewithcare]

Gotta love how Paragon just goes around making baseless assumptions about other races that somehow always turn out to be right.

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He explicitly says Bleez will have to do research to check his assumptions

 

[moralrelativity]

"You told me you hadn't watched Yes Prime Minister!"

She gives me a small frown back. "I haven't. It's just an obvious technique to buy information that you have to provide but don't want to make prominent."

"What's 'Yes Prime Minister'?"

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I'm pretty sure it's called "Yes, Minister". But perhaps they renamed it after Jim became the Prime Minister.

 

[megrisvernin]

I'm pretty sure it's called "Yes, Minister". But perhaps they renamed it after Jim became the Prime Minister.

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I've seen the show, and yeah they renamed it in later scenes. The particular scene Zoat is referring to is definitely in Yes Prime Minister.

 

[Mr Zoat]

If this isn't some Thanagarian curse word then it should be 'Burn it'
'struggle'

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bury

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Thank you, corrected.

 

[Xmaster3000]

senior civil servant

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Should it be "servants", plural?

 

[moralrelativity]

I've seen the show, and yeah they renamed it in later scenes. The particular scene Zoat is referring to is definitely in Yes Prime Minister.

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I've seen it all too, and loved it, when it originally aired 40 years ago. I don't recall that scene precisely but the theme was a constant refrain throughout.

 

[Chojin Patriarch]

7th October 2012
15:34 GMT

"Burr it!"

Bleez swoops down and punches a thick tree branch, splintering the living wood and causing the nearly-severed branch to flex and swing as it droops down from the trunk.

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Ah, she's not happy, then. Though that's a sharp reminder about just how much stronger Thangarians are compared to humans. I assume 'bur' is a feather-related anatomical curse... After all, wouldn't getting a bur caught in your wing-feathers be a bit prickly?

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

"I shouldn't have mentioned the slave thing." She turns around to look at us, flapping backwards so that she can sit on the remaining part of the branch still firmly attached to the trunk. "Right? I shouldn't have mentioned the slave thing?"

"He said it's not his decision."

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True. By the sound of it, he's only the overseer of that farming district, not the entire experiment. Like arguing national governmental practice with the front-desk receptionist of your local council office.

"But wouldn't covering it up be worse?" She pulls her wings in around her. "I mean, it's not like I could get everyone to keep quiet about it."

"Then you put it in a briefing paper five hundred pages long, preferable in the appendix."

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Heh. Literally burying the lead, eh?

I stare at Jade in surprise.

"You told me you hadn't watched Yes Prime Minister!"

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Well, she knew you liked it. I'm sure she looked up a 'funniest moments' compilation on the local Youtube equivalent or something...

She gives me a small frown back. "I haven't. It's just an obvious technique to bury information that you have to provide but don't want to make prominent."

"What's 'Yes Prime Minister'?"

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Oh, god. Introducing her to British Comedy... She'll either be completely bemused or laughing her tail feathers off.

"It's a comedy television series where I'm from, about a government minister trying to enact policy in the face of opposition from the civil service. There's a joke in there that senior civil servants make sure that briefing papers are very long and then give them to ministers just before they need to make a decision in order to make sure that they don't read them and just go with what the civil service wants."

"Oh." Bleez frowns thoughtfully. "We don't really do that in the Thanagarian Empire."

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Which is probably a good thing.

"If you're trying to reform your society, it might be worth starting."

"I dunno. I think the Ravens might take issue with it. Open persuasion is one thing, but deliberately misleading the government starts to look a bit like treason. And I think some people in government are going to want to call it treason."

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Hey, if someone doesn't read the briefing, that's their own fault. Or that of the assistant who they told to read it for them and summarise...

"Ravens?"

"The High Morr's personal spies and assassins."

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...Why am I reminded of Lord Vetinari's personal office staff, the 'Dark Clerks'? Who are said to know a dozen ways to kill someone with a quill pen... And no, stabbing is only one.

"So Thanagarians do use cunning, it's just that your government prefers it if they're the only ones."

"They wouldn't be a government if just anyone could give out orders."

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And that's fair. A pity the great game of politics is very rarely fair. And more often than not by accident.

"I suggest being up front about it but separating yourself from the tradition. Something like… When you're describing how Havania's economy works, state that you realise that it's horrible and backwards but that you're not in a position to change it."

"What if they check?"

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It won't be a lie. Merely... Framing the detail in the correct light.

"Well, you wouldn't be lying. You're not in a position to change it. Do you actually want to keep slavery?"

"No? But I don't know if I'm ever going to be in a position to remove it."

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Well, that depends on how attached you are to your mother.

"Do you know how my country got rid of slavery?"

"Violent revolution?"

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No, that would be the Colonials.

"No. We got conquered by a culture which didn't have slavery and phased it out without any legislation at all."

Jade regards me sceptically.

"You told me you gave Rocket an hour-long lecture on the West Africa Squadron. That wasn't-."

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He said they got rid of it. Doesn't mean they didn't bring it back again.

"That was after we reintroduced it after about three hundred years by the back door due to the slaves coming from a long way away and most of the slaves being in overseas territories. We actually de facto abolished it before that, and neither exactly portray us in a positive light. The point-" I return my attention to Bleez. "-is, if you bring refugees in as unowned, people will get used to there being unowned aliens around, and you can just fold the aboriginals into that system a few decades down the line."

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No Few slaves on British soil, after all. Still, it is generally easier to formalise informal arrangements once people are so used to them it seems like 'just the way it's done.'

Bleez perks up slightly. "I could do that. I will do that."

"Well, let's… Get a system that works in place for the people of Downside before moving onto something else, because that's what everything's going to hinge on."

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Careful there, OL. It almost sounds like you're proposing doing some Work.

"I think most Havanian nobles would be fine with aliens working on farms like that. The aboriginals don't like working outside of swamps. Their skin can't really cope with direct sunlight for all that long."

"You don't have automated farming?"

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The nature of a slave- or serf-based economy. It's far cheaper to throw warm bodies at something than use robots that need maintenance, fuels, operators...

"Thanagarians don't really use robots." Bleez shrugs, her wings in a slightly more normal position now. "And if we were going to go for high cost high efficiency automated farming, we'd probably go for some sort of huge hydroponics setup rather than something like-" She points her right arm at the farmland we just walked away from. "-that. I mean, I'm sure that it's a perfectly satisfying way to live, but the returns per unit land area aren't anything like as good and the quality is a lot more variable."

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Economy of scale, again.

"But that sort of collective labour is good at building communities. I'm not sure how it works for thanagarians or lizarkons, but human brains struggles to cope with dense city living. There's actually a fairly low limit on the number of people we can get emotionally invested in, and it's fine for a relatively small village but really doesn't work for a city of a million people."

"Havania doesn't have a city of a million people. Even our largest industrial towns only go up to about a quarter of a million."

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And OL should know, he's run into that problem more than once in his career, especially before Enlightenment.

"Same principle. Ah, it would be for humans. I don't know enough about thanagarian psychology to know if it's the same. Do thanagarians prefer small settlements?"

"I grew up in a castle."

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Well, let's not hold that against you, shall we?

"A castle that's not located in a town or city. It's in the middle of the countryside."

"No, I mean, I don't really know what it's like to live like a regular thanagarian. I know, like, where they live because I've studied civic planning, but I've never spent any time there myself. And when I'm touring I'm living out of hotel rooms."

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Bit out of touch with the common folk, eh? And her fame makes it a bit hard to slum it...

"In that case you need to research psychological literature on all of the species you're planning on introducing."

"Right. And you know how Overseer Torn said that they broke up coteries when they assigned them to new settlements? You think that's something I should do?"

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Well, if OL were working, I'm sure he'd say 'Give it a try.'

"Yes, definitely. You're engineering settlements for maximum stability. Removing them from the context of their former lives will help make it a clean break."

Jade doesn't look convinced. "That's how it works for humans. It might not be the same for other species."

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Especially ones that deal poorly with sudden changes.

"Right, but if they're humanoid, it probably does."

"Right. I need more information on how the Alignment works. Are their government records publically available, or do I need to make a special request?"

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Honestly, that sounds like work... But OL is the closest thing she's got to an expert on re-aligned Alignment society...

"It's not that they're secret so much as the systems have broken down to the point that information isn't flowing. Hon.. estly, if it wasn't for Xalitan's power ring and moral clarity this would be a great opportunity for corruption."

"So I need to talk to him?"

"No, Onisia would be the ideal person, but I've got no idea who under her would actually be responsible. Let me find out for you."

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Jade: "he-Hem!" But seriously, why not take the opportunity to make this a bit more formal a visit? Introduce yourself to the current Grand Convener and all that...

I guess Jade's got caught up in the 'Hmm, what to do, what to do...' social nature of the problem, and investing herself in Bleez's trouble. Because all this is starting to sound like Work, after all. Still, it's hard to break OL's habit of getting caught up in things without meaning to... Sometimes it's not even his fault!

 

[Ganurath]

I don't think that this is how taking a vacation from work... works.

 

[Stsword]

I don't think that this is how taking a vacation from work... works.

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It's called a busman's holiday.

 

[Rebu]

"You told me you hadn't watched Yes Prime Minister!"

She gives me a small frown back. "I haven't. It's just an obvious technique to bury information that you have to provide but don't want to make prominent."

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Jade might've watched any number of American legal dramas. Some law firm has to turn over documents related to X. The firm sends over all documents with the slightest connection to X, and bury the one(s) they know the opposition needs in boxes and boxes of other documents.

This is a real legal technique.

 

[Prince Charon]

I thought the Normans introduced (a form of) slavery to the English? Mind you, my knowledge of British history comes mainly from documentaries and online research, not the British education system.

Jade might've watched any number of American legal dramas, where subpoenas often get some law firm to do the exact same thing. They bury the desired documents in boxes and boxes of other documents, which also qualify under the subpoena.

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Sometimes, of course, that results in the judge getting exasperated at the party doing it, and threatening to hold them in contempt if they don't behave. Blanking on any specific shows that did it, though.