Ngamer11
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That should be removed.
Is this going to result in time travel shenanigans?
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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)
- Thread starter Mr Zoat
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DrThoth
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Don't know if this means they're going to Lethe-dunk one or both of the couple involved, but that's the assumption that I made upon reading the end. I think that would be a terrible idea but certainly interesting to read about.
Hera could make herself useful and do marriage counseling, maybe. Or at least exercise her power in her new adjacent domain as God of Divorce adequately.
I'm kind of wondering if Hades's love for Persephone is entirely of his own volition or Zeus got Aphrodite and/or Eros involved somehow because he wanted Hades to get laid or whatever. I kind of want to see Paragon arrange a meeting between Hades and Teth Adom now, even if the specific details of their situation vary.
Hera could make herself useful and do marriage counseling, maybe. Or at least exercise her power in her new adjacent domain as God of Divorce adequately.
I'm kind of wondering if Hades's love for Persephone is entirely of his own volition or Zeus got Aphrodite and/or Eros involved somehow because he wanted Hades to get laid or whatever. I kind of want to see Paragon arrange a meeting between Hades and Teth Adom now, even if the specific details of their situation vary.
FeepingCreature
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Men make plans, and the Gods laugh.
Paul makes plans, and the Gods take cover.
Darko
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Yeah, she may have known that he wouldn't force himself on her, but she probably lived with the fear that he might do it one day.
That's just depressing.
I'm assuming a lot of ghosts running around.
But would he neglect his duties as god of the dead just to pursue her?
Not that Persephone wants one.
"involved in"
"stops"
Ohh, god, please don't tell me you're going to try time travel.
You do realize that you don't have to do such extreme things to fix things, right?
That thing with Jade and the resurrections didn't exactly work out.
That's not saying much.
Vaermina
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And by "your people" she means the British, because they were really late comers to the whole "wheel" thing.
No good can come of this...
Massgamer
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Oh know, Paul has an idea!
SebazuD
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I hope it's something simple.
Like letting them get a divorce and then Hades actually courting her.
Mr Zoat
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No there isn't. Because they weren't. That's a simple fact check. Has Zeus used coercion to compel either of them to have sex with him? No.
Belief is not reality. Persephone did believe that. That didn't make it true. It wasn't true. The reality is that Persephone could have said 'no' at any time. Or just said 'let me just talk to my mother really quickly'. Her being weak-willed doesn't make Hades a criminal.
Yes it does. As do his actions. Persephone's misapprehensions don't when she does nothing to clear them up for a long time and the moment she does he apologises and backs off.
That sounds a little like a child soldier. In fact, it is a child soldier.
Thoracto
Getting some practice in, huh?
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Mr Zoat
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Thank you, corrected.
thepsyborg
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Oh, fuckity fuck.
Brainwasher-Boy
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What. About. John?!
Seriously, at this point Paul is going to be single-handedly responsible for solving every problem on Earth (and likely several other Earth's) before he can finally get around to looking for him.
Z000
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and John know thatWhat. About. John?!
Seriously, at this point Paul is going to be single-handedly responsible for solving every problem on Earth (and likely several other Earth's) before he can finally get around to looking for him.
Paul is so freaking proactive that he need these sort of thing to distract him cause Paul wouldn't just wait or get distracted naturally
Bramble Thorn
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He should weaponize this.
Call in a favor with Batman/the Justice League and tell them that a welfare check on John Constantine is a priority, and have a several years worth of villainous plots get accelerated for them to deal with in a couple months. Use the spell to do a clean sweep of all currently pending supervillian plots, including stuff they'd never have learned about otherwise.
Khornelius
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Tech-Priest Khornelius 3:16: Sir Pavlos do you require my Forget-me Stick?
(holds up Chain-maul)
Tech-Priest Khornelius 3:16: I don't know if it will work on a Divine Entity but nothing is hurt by trying. If it breaks their skulls, Lord Hephaestaean can simply replace their weak fleshy skulls with nicer and stronger metal plates.
(holds up Chain-maul)
Tech-Priest Khornelius 3:16: I don't know if it will work on a Divine Entity but nothing is hurt by trying. If it breaks their skulls, Lord Hephaestaean can simply replace their weak fleshy skulls with nicer and stronger metal plates.
Idkusername
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Just to be clear, what I assume the other person is saying that intent doesn't matter in deciding whether Persephone was raped. Where it does matter is in the answer to 'Did Hades rape her or not?'
Rape is by definition, an act of sexual intercourse under coercion, whether by violence or otherwise. By this definition, Persephone was 100% raped. She feared literal divine retribution from not one, but two major deities, which generally took the form of cruel and unusual punishments like Tantalus'.
This is not to say that Hades is at fault for what happened. In this situation, with the facts he was operating under, what he did was not rape, since Persephone did not communicate her lack of consent due to a misplaced fear of retribution.
Just as there are victimless crimes, there are crimes without perpetrators. Persephone was raped, but Hades is and was not a rapist.
Lothlo
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I think that after all these adventures, that look like Paul not focusing his search on Constantine, he will finally find him. What do you expect Paul to do, ignore all these problems popping out? Never!
Just remember Iroh's words"SOMETIMES, THE BEST WAY TO SOLVE YOUR OWN PROBLEMS IS TO HELP SOMEONE ELSE."
Also, just predicting it here. I don't think Paul would go the time travel route....
- "Paul, are you going to time travel?"
- "Time travel to before they met? that would be crazy"
- *feels better*
- " I just made them both amnesiac and had meet each other in the mortal world inside Avatars so they known that love could have naturally blossomed between them"
-*PANICS*
Just remember Iroh's words"SOMETIMES, THE BEST WAY TO SOLVE YOUR OWN PROBLEMS IS TO HELP SOMEONE ELSE."
Also, just predicting it here. I don't think Paul would go the time travel route....
- "Paul, are you going to time travel?"
- "Time travel to before they met? that would be crazy"
- *feels better*
- " I just made them both amnesiac and had meet each other in the mortal world inside Avatars so they known that love could have naturally blossomed between them"
-*PANICS*
Chojin Patriarch
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A good reminder that she's not investing that much power into this. Mostly because if she did, it would likely qualify as an Avatar proper, and it's not her season to leave Erebos. Which is against the Rules... For now.
So, a very delicate situation. As it was said in Dune: Beginnings are a delicate time. In this case, the beginning of Hephaestaean's reign.
The problem is, will she accept that reconciliation? Could she accept it, as she is now?
But will she wait that long? I get the feeling she's determined to have this done, consequences be-damned.
Ouch, that sadness. This is not going to be pleasant down below...
Ah, right, your first visitation by a God? Swamp Thing excluded, due to merely being an Avatar of his Kingdom..
Yes, quite impressive to cross dimensional barriers like that.
Huh. I suppose with her Green-altered physiology, she's practically halfway there anyway.
...And that isn't a little concerning? I don't know, that does sound a little scary?
She's powerful, but not that powerful...
Most likely the generalities are reasonably close, but many of the details have been garbled over the millennia.
Much to Hades' disappointment, alas.
Because Zeus said so... But now that he's out, well...
There was a time not so long ago when another afterlife had a little disruption. I'm guessing Ivy would have been in high school, at the latest...
As tempted as I am to quote Luke Skywalker
("Amazing, every word you just said was wrong.") As noted, some details would have garbled by human poets and scribes recording the tale...And he's been a complete gentleman, once she spoke up. Alas, the damage was done very early, so...
It's been thousands of years. I don't think there's any counsellor, mortal or otherwise, willing to step into that train-wreck of a relationship.
Which wasn't entirely his choice. Doing so after having sealed his compact with Zeus (the original pact to marry her) would have been a slap in the face to his brother-king. And Sparky doesn't take that kind of thing well.
Patience, I'm sure he'll draw diagrams if need be. Said situation began here, for reference.
At least the Jarhanpur situation turned out better than the canonical comics storyline. The Persephone situation, though...
I doubt it would be as popular as you might be expecting. Only the most devoted might consider trading super-human flesh for enchanted wood and leaves...
Won't know until some of them do die and turn up in the line for judgement.
And that's quite the figurative commute for the Olympians. Nearly halfway around the world. I take it there's any number of mountains of suitable size for a permanent link to Olympus to be formed in the region?
Do you really need to ask, knowing him?
Do make sure she takes all due diligence with the experiment, though. Don't want to leave any backdoors for unwanted attention.
...Sometimes, all you need for a problem is a fresh pair of eyes on the matter...
Says says a lot about the others, doesn't it?
...Oh, dear. that's the sound of a Paul-iphany...
There is quite a clever Checkov's gun sitting around in Erebos, just waiting to be picked up, you know...
For everyone thinking 'Time travel': What was the by-product of the water-purification process used in Hecate's little water-park, again?
Perhaps with a little tweaking, they can have a fresh start without forgetting everything. At any rate, if OL remembers that, this could be cleared up in record time and he can get back to what he was supposed to be doing.(Oh, and can we drop the arguments about the root issues of the Persephone situation, before a higher authority has to come in and bust heads?
People have started to argue past each other, I think...)
Mr Zoat
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No, because there was no coercion. Any coercion happened entirely within her head. As such, it was not rape.
And you definitely need a rapist to have a rape. Because rape is when one person compels another to have sex with them.
There was a case on Ally McBeal I remember finding amusing, where a woman tried to claim that a man had raped her despite the sex having been consensual because he had misrepresented himself when they met at a bar and so was practising deceit. I can't help but feel that that sort of nonsense distracts from cases of actual rape.
Ct613hulu
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I covered this in my last post and will just briefly summarize it again: Placing someone in a position where they have good reason to believe that they must consent to sexual advances in order to avoid harm is wrong and people with power have a moral responsibility to avoid this situation.
Hades has a tremendous amount of power over Peresephone. He consequently has a moral responsibility to make sure that Persephone knows he won't harm her if she rejects him. His failure to do that means that he is guilty of some form of sexual assault. The exact extent of his guilt can vary depending on whether he was truly ignorant of how Peresephone was with him only out of fear (a very unlikely scenario given the tremendous length of their relationship and how it has been made clear that Persephone doesn't want to stay with Hades whenever she is mentioned or shows up) and whether he is going to let her leave him now that it is impossible to ignore that the only thing keeping them together is her fear of his reprisal.
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Would Hades have actually have "apologized and backed off" if Peresephone seriously tried to get away from him? It seems like this very latest chapter shows that both OL and Peresphone believe that Hades will respond to her escaping him by causing some kind of massive disaster. Isn't someone preventing their spouse from leaving through threats of harm the very definition of marital abuse? If the current version of Hades is willing to go so far than can't we assume that an earlier version who hadn't yet sought to become a better ruler and was still living according the (frankly horrific) rules of Ancient Greece would have been willing to do far worse?
It was perfectly reasonable for Persephone to assume that Hades would harshly punish her for any attempt at escape and it seems like Hades has done nothing to convince her that this assumption was wrong in their multi-millennia relationship. This means that Persephone deciding to submit rather than resist can be considered a question of her weighing degrees of suffering rather than a failure of will. She did her best to make the most out of a terrible situation. That should make her a subject of praise and not denigration for failing to completely escape the abuse (deliberate or inadvertent) of her far more powerful spouse.
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SebazuD
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If a boss asks an employee out and the employee is scared that they might be fired if they don't comply, is there no coersion involved? Even when the boss completely ignored the power inequity involved?
If someone in power aproaches someone who is much weaker there will always be some implied danger.
Saying "it was all in her head" is like saying that if someone is carrying a gun and asks to borrow money from an unarmed person, it's their fault for not trying to find out if the other person is planning to shoot them or not.
Mr Zoat
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Agreed.
Do you frequently walk into a shop, approach a shop assistant and say 'I just want to be completely clear that I am here to exchange money for goods and have absolutely no intention of robbing you', before carrying on with your shopping? Because that's what you're expecting Hades to have done.
Most men are strong than their wives. Your formulation of rape would have us recast most of the sex in human history as rape.
Vehemently disagree.
Darko
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Yeah, if I remember correctly it was mentioned here and called the "Plague of Ghosts", which makes sense seeing as Lucifer banished everyone from Hell.
For everyone thinking 'Time travel': What was the by-product of the water-purification process used in Hecate's little water-park, again?
I doubt Persephone would be willing to have her mind messed with.
Though if she does agree to it then I can honestly see it in a tragic light; like say someone suffering a horrible fate and the only way they can be free is through drug use or a lobotomy.
Splinterface
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Huh. You can really see how the orange light is starting to affect Paul. He's becoming just that little bit more self-centered. He just deposed Zeus because he had Diana put into Tartarus for turning down Zeus' offer of marriage, but he even directly admits that he doesn't care that much about Persephone who's been stuck in a marriage she hates and fears for thousands of years. Pretty much null empathy just because it would be disruptive for Hades who Paul likes. I wonder if he's even going to recognise that yeah while letting Hades prisoner free would be work, so was getting replacements ready for Zeus.
Nice job Mr Zoat, I honestly hadn't even thought about the orange light contamination thing in ages, and I kinda thought it had just faded into the background as "Paul has superpowers" for all that it had been pretty major early on. But I guess that's the thing about exposure to the Lights long term. Can be pretty subtle.
Nice job Mr Zoat, I honestly hadn't even thought about the orange light contamination thing in ages, and I kinda thought it had just faded into the background as "Paul has superpowers" for all that it had been pretty major early on. But I guess that's the thing about exposure to the Lights long term. Can be pretty subtle.
DrThoth
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I more or less agree with the general thrust of your argument, but in this specific statement, I feel like Persephone does know Hades wouldn't punish her? Like someone quoted, the moment she realized he wouldn't force her to do anything, they never shared a bed again. My impression was that the main reason she never tried is not because of Hades specifically but because of Zeus, and the system that (up till now) doesn't allow her to divorce. I might be misremembering things, and it doesn't help that we've never seen Hades and Persephone interact onscreen in this story.
It's Persephone's specific statement of having feared Hades forever, implicitly even after her realization post-Mellinoe's birth that he wouldn't (actively) make her do anything she didn't want, that strikes me as slightly irrational, albeit understandable as a result of trauma.
Mr Zoat liked my previous post, and though I don't know which specific part of what I said was the reason, I'm really hoping it's when I said Hera should step in, so we have some narrative payoff for her now being the Goddess of Divorce and hosting a relationship talk show and doing something impactful onscreen- and the marriage of Hades and Persephone is almost as high-profile as hers and Zeus's.
I forget if this is an accurate myth but I seem to remember Poseidon 'winning' or claiming Amphitrite as his wife by catching her in a swimming race or something. I wonder if she'll make a case as well (not a lot of healthy godly marriages in classical myth, really- Eros and Psyche might be the best example?).
One thing to consider in terms of things blowing up is that we should basically already be at that stage. Persephone's essentially made a public petition to Hephaestaean, in intent if not in execution because people are approaching him through Paragon and that's not really official protocol or anything. That means Demeter must already know or will find out quite shortly, and now that there's an actual chance of getting her daughter back for good, I think she'll be even more intense than in her myth. The other thing to consider is that for all his power, Zeus had more power than Hades, and now Hephaestaean occupies that role with the metaphysical might to back it up, and with the backing of Metis, Athena, Hecate, Demeter (especially for this issue) and presumably the other virgin goddesses and goddesses of women, I don't know if I see Hades as someone who wouldn't acquiesce (again, we've never seen him talk to or about Persephone in the story so far, and Paragon hasn't really broached the subject with Zagreus or Melinoe, though that might change now that things are in motion. It's hard to gauge what will really happen, as opposed to what people think will happen).
I think there's that one myth of a nymph trying to seduce Hades and Persephone turned her into a mint plant and stomped her- did that still happen in some fashion? Did she just do it because it's an insult to her dignity in the social role of wife, and she had the power to quash it?
As previous people have said, you can compel/coerce someone without intending to compel/coerce them. Paragon's intimidated people without meaning to; his very first chapter has him 'buying' some clothing from criminals without ever realizing the context- a banal example, yes, but it should still demonstrate the basic principle. Hades just didn't 'do shopping wrong' in the context of ancient Greek social customs. And what is 'right' is often inconvenient and thus not actually what happens in everyday life- and obviously a value judgement based on socio-historical context.
It'll be what Hades decides to do now that Persephone's stated her desire to leave him that'll determine readers' opinion of him, more than anything.
Just like there are degrees of complicity and severity in crimes like murder (first/second/third-degree, murder vs manslaughter), I think we can apply something like that to a term that's subject to so many interpretations like 'rape' and less prominently 'sexual assault'. Of course this is all messy and complicated, because reality (life, sex, power and relationships) is messy and complicated, and laws are there to bring some semblance of structure and (in theory) fairness to these things.
It would be interesting to see how Indigo Paul/Saul Talbot would handle this situation.
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Handlewithcare
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If Zeus tricked Persephone and Hades wouldn't it be technicaly correct to say he raped both of them?
Both of them had sex under false pretense,which means neither of them consented to what was happening, because you can't consent to something you don't know about.
If someone roofies two people who have then sex with each other the person who drugged them is the assaulter.
Katillno
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Huh? What's this referring to?
Also excited to see what shenanigans Paul gets up to to fix things
Ngamer11
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A minor plot from Episode 74: Gods and Mortals. Just look for Rama Khan and you should find it.
Ct613hulu
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My key point is reasonable fear. It isn't reasonable for the shop assistant in your scenario to be afraid of their customer and is perfectly reasonable for Persephone to be afraid of Hades in their specific situation.
It also would have been incredibly easy for Hades to have let Persephone know that she could freely end their relationship and that he would never harm her. All it would take is a single conversation or a promise on the Styx if she is unwilling to accept his word. His failure to do anything that could have given Persephone the option of safely escaping their relations for thousands of years makes me think that he is deliberately letting her remain afraid in order to maintain the status quo. He must certainly be doing so now if he does nothing to improve the situation now that it has become impossible to ignore that Persephone is only continuing their relationship out of fear. This would make his actions fall directly under the accepted definition of assault due to the threat of harm.
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A more comparable example would be a heavily armed man coming into a store every day and grapping items off the shelves before immediately leaving without paying. The shop owner would attempt to get outside assistance only to fail miserably as the corrupt laws of their community make what the man is doing perfectly legal. Their family tries to help out but the man is too strong for them to achieve anything but get the man to reduce his visits to once every other day. The man eventually starts giving minor gifts to the shop owner and taking less expensive items. He never stops taking items or gives any indication that he plans to stop in the future.
The shop owner's fear of the man and desire to not have him take items from their shop are immediately obvious to any competent observer. Everyone in the local community knows that the shop owner does not want to be in this situation and it is hardly kept as a secret from outsiders. The shop owner still refrain from directly challenging the man or outright asking him to stop as they know that there is nothing stopping him from doing far worse if he is angered by their protests.
Does this scenario make us view the man as the innocent subject of a misunderstanding or a robber? Is the man's claim that he would stop taking items from the store if ever asked plausible or sufficient to totally shield him from any responsibility for the suffering of the shop owner? What if the man continues his actions even after the shop owner makes a public plea for assistance from the new police chief and mayor that he could not have possibly have missed?
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I hate applying this type of moral philosophy to human history as it always end up providing some horrific conclusions. You are absolutely right in that this definition could lead to much of the sex in human history being defined as rape or some other form of sexual abuse. It is particularly disturbing that our civilization has only started treating marital rape as a crime in the last few decades. There isn't much we can say on the topic that isn't incredibly depressing.
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