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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Or maybe he just moved Uncle Sam slightly, and the universe glitching is just a side effect of the kaahuite resisting being moved.
Except from everyone else's perspective the Kaahuite moved, which means all those perspectives must have moved relative to it, rather than Sam moving relative to the local frame of reference.
 
I mean... If someone killed Sam as well, maybe.
There can't be more than one nation spirit? What's The eagle then? And I know Lady Liberty jumped ship but doesn't that imply that there is more than just Uncle Sam. Let flesh out Patheon, in fact, we've already got the new Jack (Hope) Kennedy
 
American, so "defenseless"

Eh. The North went to war over power, and The South did too. But, for the South, that was a specific power: the power of the White man. Not just maintaining slavery, but maintaining the social hierarchy slavery represented, of the Black Man as inferior to the White man, naturally destined for subordination. While it wasn't about slavery for the north, it certainly was for the South, in my book.
I will reiterate: The American Civil War was not a war over morality or social structures. Neither side went to war to prove a point about the nature of mankind. And the idea that savages from foreign lands would be better off serving in the civilized world wasn't unique to the American South.

The American Civil War was "about slavery" in the way that With This Ring is "about greed." In both cases, that's only the source of the power. Having the orange light being the source of the SI's power is secondary to the story, not the primary motivator. This is evidenced by all of the side story segments where the SI doesn't have an orange ring and yet still pursues the same kinds of goals for the same kinds of reasons.

The South wanted to protect their power. The fact that their power came from slavery is secondary. The North could have chosen to put a high tariff on cotton and tobacco instead. The North could have pushed to increase the power of the Senate compared to the power of the House of Representatives. Those would have been effective at restricting the economic and/or political power of the South, but it wouldn't have given the North the appearance of the moral high ground -- indeed, it might have made the South's rebellion look more justifiable to outside observers. The South wasn't fighting to protect the institution of slavery because they thought slavery was a moral good (whether they actually thought so or not) -- they were fighting to protect their autonomy. Slavery was the battleground.

(As an aside, the North trying to take the appearance of the moral high ground may be why the South "shot first" -- the North certainly looked like they were intentionally goading the South to provoke a response that they could point at as casus belli.)
 
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I've been looking on the DC wiki and aside from Captain Nazi and Uncle Sam have seen any other National Spirits in canon? I see Metropolis, Los Angeles, Gotham, and Paris have spirits guarding them but no spirits of nations at least that I've been able to find.
 
I've been looking on the DC wiki and aside from Captain Nazi and Uncle Sam have seen any other National Spirits in canon? I see Metropolis, Los Angeles, Gotham, and Paris have spirits guarding them but no spirits of nations at least that I've been able to find.

The Vertigo series, which is it's own canon as I've mentioned before, Uncle Sam, is the inspiration for this storyline.

It had the Russian Bear, the British Lion, Marianne of the French Revolution, Columbia, Queen Victoria, and the Bad Sam was not Johnny Reb, Zoat did some canon wielding.

In that series, national zeitgeists have built in obsolescence, that's how Bad Sam was defeated, Sam just had more staying power.

Marianne was stated to be lucky "She had five good years before the Reign of Terror."

And just in case it needs be said- Captain Nazi might not be a national zeitgeist in canon, he claimed to be one, but well, he might just be insane.
 
I've been looking on the DC wiki and aside from Captain Nazi and Uncle Sam have seen any other National Spirits in canon? I see Metropolis, Los Angeles, Gotham, and Paris have spirits guarding them but no spirits of nations at least that I've been able to find.

Las Vegas also had a spirit that showed up in Lucifer.
 
American, so "defenseless"


I will reiterate: The American Civil War was not a war over morality or social structures. Neither side went to war to prove a point about the nature of mankind. And the idea that savages from foreign lands would be better off serving in the civilized world wasn't unique to the American South.

The American Civil War was "about slavery" in the way that With This Ring is "about greed." In both cases, that's only the source of the power. Having the orange light being the source of the SI's power is secondary to the story, not the primary motivator. This is evidenced by all of the side story segments where the SI doesn't have an orange ring and yet still pursues the same kinds of goals for the same kinds of reasons.

The South wanted to protect their power. The fact that their power came from slavery is secondary. The North could have chosen to put a high tariff on cotton and tobacco instead. The North could have pushed to increase the power of the Senate compared to the power of the House of Representatives. Those would have been effective at restricting the economic and/or political power of the South, but it wouldn't have given the North the appearance of the moral high ground -- indeed, it might have made the South's rebellion look more justifiable to outside observers. The South wasn't fighting to protect the institution of slavery because they thought slavery was a moral good (whether they actually thought so or not) -- they were fighting to protect their autonomy. Slavery was the battleground.

(As an aside, the North trying to take the appearance of the moral high ground may be why the South "shot first" -- the North certainly looked like they were intentionally goading the South to provoke a response that they could point at as casus belli.)

Couple of things to point out on this. 1. A tariff was a contributing cause to the south succeed but a tariff is placed on Imports not Exports like Cotton or Tobacco. This is done to make goods from your own home country more appealing by making the price of foreign goods more expensive. This was done to encourage the South to by more from the North but at the cost of driving up prices in the South. So again a money issue and very unpopular in the house. 2. You got it backwards on Congress. The North with its much higher population already dominated the house of Reps and would want its power increased as it would be much less likely for the 'South' to retake the Chamber. The Senate for the longest time was kept at a even split between slave and free to not upset the balance of power. However with the Compromise of 1850 the balance shifted with CA giving the 'free' states more votes in that chamber as well. Southerners held the presidency and its veto power until 1860 but then well after that the 'North' would have had the trifecta of House, Senate, and Presidency.

So yeah Money was the biggest motivator in all of this.
 
I've been looking on the DC wiki and aside from Captain Nazi and Uncle Sam have seen any other National Spirits in canon? I see Metropolis, Los Angeles, Gotham, and Paris have spirits guarding them but no spirits of nations at least that I've been able to find.
where is the spirit of Gotham or Metropolis referenced I tried looking on the Wiki and couldn't find it.
 
where is the spirit of Gotham or Metropolis referenced I tried looking on the Wiki and couldn't find it.
I can't remember where I saw it but it showed a meeting between Gotham's spirit which looked like an anorexic, diseased Gargoyle. Metroplois Spirit who looked like a young woman dressed as a meter maid and Pairs who looked like an elegantly dressed noblewoman.
 
I can't remember where I saw it but it showed a meeting between Gotham's spirit which looked like an anorexic, diseased Gargoyle. Metroplois Spirit who looked like a young woman dressed as a meter maid and Pairs who looked like an elegantly dressed noblewoman.

The post flashpoint Stormwatch run where MM was a member.
 
You got it backwards on Congress. The North with its much higher population already dominated the house of Reps
Ah, yeah, you're right, I got that backwards. Derp on my part.

1. A tariff was a contributing cause to the south succeed but a tariff is placed on Imports not Exports like Cotton or Tobacco. This is done to make goods from your own home country more appealing by making the price of foreign goods more expensive. This was done to encourage the South to by more from the North but at the cost of driving up prices in the South. So again a money issue and very unpopular in the house.
Strictly speaking, we're both wrong. The taxes in question are technically not tariffs, because tariffs between states were prohibited by the Constitution. However, the effect of an excise tax on cotton and tobacco would practically have been a tariff on importing those products into the Northern states from the Southern states. A very obvious reason why they wouldn't have done this, of course, is that it would have been unpopular with Northerners, who would find their prices rising to accommodate the tax.

There's a pretty good argument to be made that the taxes you're citing were a constitutional violation, which would have only supported the South's belief that the federal government was unfairly favoring the North.
 
The South wasn't fighting to protect the institution of slavery because they thought slavery was a moral good (whether they actually thought so or not) -- they were fighting to protect their autonomy. Slavery was the battleground.
As cited earlier, multiple of the articles of secession and the Vice-President of the Cofederacy would disagree. It was all about maintaining the institution of slavery, and the social hierarchy of Whites as superior, it represented. They were protecting their auto my yes. Their automy to have slaves.
 
Prez would be Boss Smiley's opposite number. The Messianic martyr who brings the hope of a better future as opposed to Boss Smiley's satanic role.

Or since Prez was also, I'm pretty sure, an allegory for JFK- I mean young handsome president gets assassinated, not exactly subtle that, maybe the hope forged JFK is now Boss Smiley's opposite number.
 
There can't be more than one nation spirit? What's The eagle then? And I know Lady Liberty jumped ship but doesn't that imply that there is more than just Uncle Sam. Let flesh out Patheon, in fact, we've already got the new Jack (Hope) Kennedy

The issue is that Johnny Reb is Uncle Sam, metaphysically - at the time of the War Between the States, the American national personification, Uncle Sam, split accordingly, into Billy Yank and Johnny Reb.

At the end of the war Billy Yank returned to being Uncle Sam, and Johnny Reb survived by lurking in the Badlands. In order to pemamently remove one from the board, as it were, you would have to remove both.
 
Dear John (part 24)
7th November 2012
11:46 GMT -5


Alan floats besides me, watching the growing crowds converging on the Statue of Liberty. Her head's normal, with no obvious indication that it was ever different. And while I haven't actually asked anyone, there's nothing on the internet about it briefly turning into a giant yellow smiley face.

"I wondered what happened to the lichen on my roof."

"The first time I visited the Gotham Police Department, I did a full clean on the place. Made one of the officers have a panic attack."

"That right." He thinks about that for a moment, then frowns in puzzlement. "Why did he have a panic attack?"

"The Joker did some sort of murder disco where orange was the 'dead' colour."

"Ah."

Alan continues watching the crowds for a few moment.

"Can you change it back?"

"Not… Not really? I know that most people think of green as the 'right' colour, but as soon as my scan showed me that it was just the copper patina I couldn't think of that as the 'right' colour any more. It'll change back in twenty or so years."

He rolls his eyes and glances my way.

"What, you didn't put some kinda invulnerable coat over it?"

"Actually-."

"Don't-." He looks at me seriously. "Don't you do it."

I grin, and he shakes his head and then returns to contemplating the crowd.

"Paul, there's something I've been meaning to ask you about."

"Yeah?"

"I know I said I was gonna take a nap, but I don't actually feel tired."

"My Grandad used to say that he was 'just resting my eyes'."

"No, I mean… I know you said that I've.. absorbed so much green light that I'm not entirely human any more… I guess I'm just coming to terms with what that means. I've been… Old, for more than half my life."

"I'm of the opinion that evolution designed humans to be obsolete at sixty."

"Oh, it was only a third, then." He nods. "That's good to know."

"Actually, due to the way the human brain processes novel experiences, it should feel like less than that." He nods. "So that's a third getting tired when you didn't used to."

"Aside from-. Well, you know. When I started wearing my ring again."

I nod.

"And now I don't… Have to worry about that."

"You do sleep, right?"

"Oh, yeah, yeah." He nods. "As much as I did when I was in my twen'ies. Seventy years ago."

I shrug. "I don't know what you want me to say. You are as young as you feel." Huh. "Actually, that could become a… Not a 'problem' in the Justice League, but… An issue?"

"Me not aging?"

"You, Diana, Doctor Mist, Red Tornado, Angelica and Zauriel will live indefinitely. Superman, Martian Manhunter, Icon and Plastic Man have lifespans significantly beyond human norms. Assuming that you don't slack off… Eventually, you're going to get to a point where there's going to be a huge gulf between the existing members and… Anyone who might want to join."

"So the Justice Society tontine could go unclaimed for a long time."

This time I frown at him.

"I always assumed that Diana would get it, in the end. Sure, Red doesn't age, but he could wear out, and Diana said that her mother was about three thousand years old. Seemed like a safe bet."

"Does Hawkman's reincarnation count?"

"We didn't know he could do that back then. Not sure-sure. And no, he had to die to reincarnate, so obviously that doesn't count."

"How long do you think it'll be until your pension provider starts asking why you're not dead yet?"

"I haven't exactly been keeping a secret identity, Paul. I guess they just haven't put two and two together."

"Given the mortality rate, shouldn't they encourage pensioners to become superheroes?"

"Hah! And mountain climbing and jet skiing! That explains why they offer discounts for old people; the banks are sponsoring them!"

We chuckle for a moment. H-aaa, but now's as good a time to bring this up as any.

"Have you..? Given any thought to what you want to do with your… Life?"

"Isn't that something that old people are supposed to say to young kids? How come you and Jade aren't married yet?"

"Well, the original plan was to wait until the first stage of the war with the Reach was over…"

"But you've moved in with her."

"We're not-. Our schedules don't always line up… But, yeah, there's-. The original plan is kind of… Gone. But we agreed on it and Jade really doesn't like unreliable people. And… Yeah, we could get married, but we'd still barely be seeing each other, and I'm not really-. Marriage should be the start of our lives together, not just seeing each other every few days."

"I guess that's reasonable. And since I know you're… Planning on nudging me about it, it's gonna be… Be a long time before I… Ah. Before I do anything like that."

"Just so long as you're aware to the possibility. Did Kennedy say why he wanted to stay in the Badlands?"

"He's dead, so he can't really come back to Earth." Not sure about that, but it's his choice. "He wanted to try turning that place around."

"Sam said that was impossible."

"Sam's not a hope ghost. And, ah, given some of the things Kennedy did, maybe he wants to earn some time off purgatory before going to Heaven."

"I don't think that purgatory actually exists as a distinct place. It's more… That you're further away from unity with the Source if you were a bit of a low level sinner as a matter of degrees." I shake my head. "I'm a little concerned that he'll get stuck in there when Doctor Mist seals the entrances."

"I wouldn't worry about it." Alan shrugs. "One thing I've learned about that sort of seal? It always stops working when it's most inconvenient."

"Yes, that's… Really reassuring."
 
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American, so "defenseless"
I will reiterate: The American Civil War was not a war over morality or social structures. Neither side went to war to prove a point about the nature of mankind. And the idea that savages from foreign lands would be better off serving in the civilized world wasn't unique to the American South.
The American Civil War was "about slavery" in the way that With This Ring is "about greed." In both cases, that's only the source of the power. Having the orange light being the source of the SI's power is secondary to the story, not the primary motivator. This is evidenced by all of the side story segments where the SI doesn't have an orange ring and yet still pursues the same kinds of goals for the same kinds of reasons.
The South wanted to protect their power. The fact that their power came from slavery is secondary. The North could have chosen to put a high tariff on cotton and tobacco instead. The North could have pushed to increase the power of the Senate compared to the power of the House of Representatives. Those would have been effective at restricting the economic and/or political power of the South, but it wouldn't have given the North the appearance of the moral high ground -- indeed, it might have made the South's rebellion look more justifiable to outside observers. The South wasn't fighting to protect the institution of slavery because they thought slavery was a moral good (whether they actually thought so or not) -- they were fighting to protect their autonomy. Slavery was the battleground.

You are wrong if only because Slavey was seen as so integral a part of Southern Society/Way of life, you can't be a "Gentleman of leisure" and a member of a sort of aristocracy as the elites of the Anti-bellum south saw themselves as if you don't have people to lord over as well as do all the actual work for you.
Also, basically EVERY state that left the union stated in plain language that they were leaving the union over slavery. Because they were convinced that Lincoln would take their slaves and knew that he would prevent the slavery from expanding any further.

(As an aside, the North trying to take the appearance of the moral high ground may be why the South "shot first" -- the North certainly looked like they were intentionally goading the South to provoke a response that they could point at as casus belli.)

The South left the union illegally and Fort Sumter was a federal military installation. They also didn't try diplomacy at all and the first half of the war took place almost entirely in Union Territory because the South invaded the North. Famous major battles were fought in freaking Pennsylvania!! Which doesn't border a single state that joined the Confederacy!
 
Y'see, I'm pretty sure that Kennedy was a badlands spirit. he was literally a president with no brain and no hands. That's powerfully symbolic of presidents being foolish and ineffectual.

Then Alan gave him hands and a mind made up of the hopes of America.

I'm not sure that he won't just get himself blasted back into ineffectuality, like I suspect he nearly did by saying the nuclear football was rightfully his, and giving the brass an excuse to toss a nuke at him. But if he isn't I think he's going to have an effect on real-america.
 
7th November 2012
11:46 GMT -5


Alan floats besides me, watching the growing crowds converging on the Statue of Liberty. Her head's normal, with no obvious indication that it was ever different. And while I haven't actually asked anyone, there's nothing on the internet about it briefly turning into a giant yellow smiley face.

"I wondered what happened to the lichen on my roof."
Yeah, OL does seem to like cleaning places up wherever he goes. I bet he fixed up minor issues with her super-structure too, like the damage her raised arm suffered over the years, like being near an ammo dump explosion during during World War I.

"The first time I visited the Gotham Police Department, I did a full clean on the place. Made one of the officers have a panic attack."

"That right." He thinks about that for a moment, then frowns in puzzlement. "Why did he have a panic attack?"
Dude, you lived in Gotham. Why else would someone panic when the building lit up orange for a moment: the usual Freaks.

"The Joker did some sort of murder disco where orange was the 'dead' colour."

"Ah."
And that was probably an actual comics story, no doubt. Probably named 'Murder on the Dance Floor' or something similar?

Alan continues watching the crowds for a few moment.

"Can you change it back?"
The colour, you mean? Eh, she started out this way.

"Not… Not really? I know that most people think of green as the 'right' colour, but as soon as my scan showed me that it was just the copper patina I couldn't think of that as the 'right' colour any more. It'll change back in twenty or so years."

He rolls his eyes and glances my way.
And in the meantime, all the souvenir sellers are cursing him because now they have to replace all their tchotchkes.

"What, you didn't put some kinda invulnerable coat over it?"

"Actually-."
...You mean you didn't? Did something distract you before you thought to?

"Don't-." He looks at me seriously. "Don't you do it."

I grin, and he shakes his head and then returns to contemplating the crowd.
...He could tint it green, like the patina was?

"Paul, there's something I've been meaning to ask you about."

"Yeah?"
Ah, here's some of that fallout from him going mono-Hope back in the Bad Place.

"I know I said I was gonna take a nap, but I don't actually feel tired."

"My Grandad used to say that he was 'just resting my eyes'."
The joy of a Spectrum colour known for its rejuvenative properties.

"No, I mean… I know you said that I've.. absorbed so much green light that I'm not entirely human any more… I guess I'm just coming to terms with what that means. I've been… Old, for more than half my lift."

"I'm of the opinion that evolution designed humans to be obsolete at sixty."
That long? Most bodies start to begin that decline as early as thirty.

"Oh, it was only a third, then." He nods. "That's good to know."

"Actually, due to the way the human brain processes novel experiences, it should feel like less than that." He nods. "So that's a third getting tired when you didn't used to."
Yeah, the day-to-day stuff would become little more than a blur of 'did this, did that...'

"Aside from-. Well, you know. When I started wearing my ring again."

I nod.
Amazing what a little determination or desire can do, once that Ring is on your finger, huh?

"And now I don't… Have to worry about that."

"You do sleep, right?"
Because, y'know... Even with a Power Ring stabilising things, a human brain isn't designed to run for all that long without at least a nap.

"Oh, yeah, yeah." He nods. "As much as I did when I was in my twen'ies. Seventy years ago."

I shrug. "I don't know what you want me to say. You are as young as you feel." Huh. "Actually, that could become a… Not a 'problem' in the Justice League, but… An issue?"
...There are an increasing number of long-lived or outright immortal members now, aren't there?

"Me not aging?"

"You, Diana, Doctor Mist, Red Tornado, Angelica and Zauriel will live indefinitely. Superman, Martian Manhunter, Icon and Plastic Man have lifespans significantly beyond human norms. Assuming that you don't slack off… Eventually, you're going to get to a point where there's going to be a huge gulf between the existing members and… Anyone who might want to join."
The line-up is going to still look quite familiar in twenty years or so, is what you're saying. Even fifty years down the line, assuming they don't get tired of fighting the fight.

"So the Justice Society tontine could go unclaimed for a long time."

This time I frown at him.
Perhaps you can roll it over into a fund to support rookie heroes taking up the legacies of Society members? That's more or less how the modern Justice Society operated.

"I always assumed that Diana would get it, in the end. Sure, Red doesn't age, but he could wear out, and Diana said that her mother was about three thousand years old. Seemed like a safe bet."

"Does Hawkman's reincarnation count?"
...I don't know, it does involve him dying, after all.

"We didn't know he could do that back then. Not sure-sure. And no, he had to die to reincarnate, so obviously that doesn't count."

"How long do you think it'll be until your pension provider starts asking why you're not dead yet?"
Heh. One problem he likely didn't think of.

"I haven't exactly been keeping a secret identity, Paul. I guess they just haven't put two and two together."

"Given the mortality rate, shouldn't they encourage pensioners to become superheroes?"
Reminds me of that one music video with the old-age superheroes. :p

"Hah! And mountain climbing and jet skiing! That explains why they offer discounts for old people; the banks are sponsoring them!"

We chuckle for a moment. H-aaa, but now's as good a time to bring this up as any.
True. No crises to deal with, no life-or-death situations to interrupt...

"Have you..? Given any thought to what you want to do with your… Life?"

"Isn't that something that old people are supposed to say to young kids? How come you and Jade aren't married yet?"
No rush. He's immortal, and Maltusian medical science means she'll likely have a long life ahead of her.

"Well, the original plan was to wait until the first stage of the war with the Reach was over…"

"But you've moved in with her."
Gee, Alan. So old-fashioned. He's already made an honest woman of her, after all... ;)

"We're not-. Our schedules don't always line up… But, yeah, there's-. The original plan is kind of… Gone. But we agreed on it and Jade really doesn't like unreliable people. And… Yeah, we could get married, but we'd still barely be seeing each other, and I'm not really-. Marriage should be the start of our lives together, not just seeing each other every few days."

"I guess that's reasonable. And since I know you're… Planning on nudging me about it, it's gonna be… Be a long time before I… Ah. Before I do anything like that."
Between lingering feelings for his poor late wife, and plenty of candidates for round two, I'm not surprised.

"Just so long as you're aware to the possibility. Did Kennedy say why he wanted to stay in the Badlands?"

"He's dead, so he can't really come back to Earth." Not sure about that, but it's his choice. "He wanted to try turning that place around."
Well, he's gonna have a job ahead of him. Still, his post-mortality, his choice...

"Sam said that was impossible."

"Sam's not a hope ghost. And, ah, given some of the things Kennedy did, maybe he wants to earn some time off purgatory before going to Heaven."
:oops: The whole adultery thing, for a start. Or maybe he can get the same deal Prez Rickard got, and emigrate to the Dreaming...

"I don't think that purgatory actually exists as a distinct place. It's more… That you're further away from unity with the Source if you were a bit of a low level sinner as a matter of degrees." I shake my head. "I'm a little concerned that he'll get stuck in there when Doctor Mist seals the entrances."

"I wouldn't worry about it." Alan shrugs. "One thing I've learned about that sort of seal? It always stops working when it's most inconvenient."

"Yes, that's… Really reassuring."
Especially if the Smiling Git has any say in the matter.

A nice little denouement to a very tense episode. Always fun to see Alan and OL interacting like this. Officially, mentor and apprentice, but which is which is a bit up in the air. Now, on to the next job: find John Constantine, once and for all, I hope. Unless we get another peek at Krono's adventures in Ohio. :D Who knows what tomorrow will bring, after all?


I've been… Old, for more than half my lift.
I've been… Old, for more than half my life.
 
but as soon as my scan showed me that it was just the copper patina I couldn't think of that as the 'right' colour any more.

Great. Next, he'll be de-fermenting cheeses. Without the patina, it's going to suffer more wear and tear.

Never let OL get anywhere close anything historical again.

Old, for more than half my lift."
Life
"I wouldn't worry about it." Alan shrugs. "One thing I've learned about that sort of seal? It always stops working when it's most inconvenient."
Ain't that the truth. Rocket-powered apes and time travel, man.
 
The line-up is going to still look quite familiar in twenty years or so, is what you're saying. Even fifty years down the line, assuming they don't get tired of fighting the fight.

Or die fighting the fight.

Gee, Alan. So old-fashioned. He's already made an honest woman of her, after all... ;)

This is probably one of the few times where that saying has made sense.

:oops: The whole adultery thing

Not to mention a whole lot of other things.
 
"I wouldn't worry about it." Alan shrugs. "One thing I've learned about that sort of seal? It always stops working when it's most inconvenient."

"Yes, that's… Really reassuring."

I take Paul as sarcastic here, but there is a valid benefit here. Now it is basically inevitable that when the seal fails Kennedy will come out and warn the goodguys.
 

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