With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Mr Zoat]

Let me guess: Wizards are good at making things go 'boom!' and not much more? Which puts them more at the level of tactical weaponry than anything.

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No, not even that.

The two things that the Sanderan Empire could have used to even the playing field were magicians and apostles. So naturally the plot-relevant wizards and apostle side with the Japanese. The Sanderan Empire has no apostles willing to help it, and while it looks like it has no wizards at all either the author says they're around in supporting roles.

It's been ages, but one of the things that really bothered me about Gate was how arbitrary the selection of fantasy elements was.

With artful care every traditional fantasy creature and force that could hinder them just so happens to not exist. No contracts with water and earth elementals to erode their defensive foothold. No use of ghosts, wisps, or any other purely magical/spiritual entities that would screw over their 100% mundane loadout. No genuinely dangerous wildlife like tunneling ambush predators or semi-sentient insect swarms.

And that's not getting into how boring their magic is. Given the soldiers all come from a non-magical planet, unless they all have high magic resistance "just because", simply spamming sleep spells, or really any minds altering effect, would be immensely difficult for them to deal with.

And on the list goes. Alchemy, magic items, prognostication. Any edge that could have made the conflict even slightly interesting either doesn't exist or the locals are too foolish to use them effectively.

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With magic, the thing holding them back is the fact that it requires them to understand how the world around them actually functions before they can modify it. Once they get some modern physics or chemistry textbooks, things will get interesting.

'on Japanese'?
'saying that'?

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Thank you, corrected.

I'm failing to understand this sentence. Is it saying that the Japanese think the ring is not magical, or what? It occurs to me that it probably makes more sense to believe that the 'gods' are aliens or humans that somehow got advanced tech and conquered the world, than that they are actually gods, so is that it?

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He's commenting on them giving him funny looks because they can't immediately understand what he is.

 

[Duke Long]

He's commenting on them giving him funny looks because they can't immediately understand what he is.

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Oh, I get it now. Thanks.

 

[MagnumForce]

This is one of my favorite crossovers cause of how forced the plot of GATE is and how easily it can be derailed slash improved. I could seriously read a spon-off fic of this.

 

[0zymandias]

I've tried looking on the thread marks but there's no search bar there could a kind soul, link the other Gateway chapters?

 

[Artificial_Icecube]

I've tried looking on the thread marks but there's no search bar there could a kind soul, link the other Gateway chapters?

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One, Two, Three, Four, Five.

 

[0zymandias]

One, Two, Three, Four, Five.

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Thank you very much

 

[Steelplaza]

I feel a bit sour about the Gate story, and finally I realized why.

Most every universe Mr Zoat writes interludes for, it feels like there are aspects of the work he actually likes and takes joy in. Even when the SI is calling characters out or complaining about things, there's affection for the world. Which makes sense, right? If he read or watched enough of a universe to write for it, there must be things he really liked even if there aspects he doesn't like.

But I'm not feeling the "love" here. Some affection for the basic concept maybe, but is there any actual characters or events or settings in Gate that are loved? Not the concepts, but is there anything about how Gate executed its concepts that Zoat likes? It doesn't read like there is. So without some love to back up the criticism, it just reads as kind of mean. Like for example, the Thundercats interludes were pretty mean to the main characters, but at least Yellow Fear Lord Paul seemed to like the world of Thundera and understand the characters even if he was frustrated with them.

Now personally I liked Gate as a fun nationalistic rah-rah power fantasy. Even if it's for a nation I'm not a citizen of. It has a lot of cute characters and it can be fun to watch a modern military stomp over things. It's trash, sure, but I like me some trash once in a while. But I can't get a sense for how Zoat managed to stomach enough watching/reading Gate to even write about it.

 

[Mr Zoat]

I feel a bit sour about the Gate story, and finally I realized why.

Most every universe Mr Zoat writes interludes for, it feels like there are aspects of the work he actually likes and takes joy in. Even when the SI is calling characters out or complaining about things, there's affection for the world. Which makes sense, right? If he read or watched enough of a universe to write for it, there must be things he really liked even if there aspects he doesn't like.

But I'm not feeling the "love" here. Some affection for the basic concept maybe, but is there any actual characters or events or settings in Gate that are loved? Not the concepts, but is there anything about how Gate executed its concepts that Zoat likes? It doesn't read like there is. So without some love to back up the criticism, it just reads as kind of mean. Like for example, the Thundercats interludes were pretty mean to the main characters, but at least Yellow Fear Lord Paul seemed to like the world of Thundera and understand the characters even if he was frustrated with them.

Now personally I liked Gate as a fun nationalistic rah-rah power fantasy. Even if it's for a nation I'm not a citizen of. It has a lot of cute characters and it can be fun to watch a modern military stomp over things. It's trash, sure, but I like me some trash once in a while. But I can't get a sense for how Zoat managed to stomach enough watching/reading Gate to even write about it.

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I was waiting for it to get good.

I mean, the basic concept is great. It's X-Com in reverse, with Japan having to leverage superior technology against an mystical foe while keeping an eye out for their enemies at home trying something. Except... No. It's a cakewalk. People fall over themselves to work for/with the Japanese and there's nothing at all that can threaten them.

I've seen good Gate fanfics before. There was one where the Gate opened in Washington DC just after the American Civil War. And the Princes were apostles, because obviously the Emperor would have his family enhanced by magic. The others were from the Sanderan point of view as they work out how to cope with an apparently unbeatable enemy. The Japanese side just... Isn't. Making it more plausible and adding in Americans just turns it into even more of a stomp.

 

[Steelplaza]

See, I think the core concept of Gate is "Japanese soldier who is an otaku gets to go to a fantasy world and experience meeting a lot of hot fantasy girls". That is the "concept" of Gate, stapled to a secondary plot about awesome Japanese military kicking fantasy ass.

For me a good Gate fanfic would actually star Itami and Rory and do interesting things with them as characters, not ditch everything but "fantasy world and Earth collide". Sorry for the derail.

 

[Mr Zoat]

See, I think the core concept of Gate is "Japanese soldier who is an otaku gets to go to a fantasy world and experience meeting a lot of hot fantasy girls". That is the "concept" of Gate, stapled to a secondary plot about awesome Japanese military kicking fantasy ass.

For me a good Gate fanfic would actually star Itami and Rory and do interesting things with them as characters, not ditch everything but "fantasy world and Earth collide".

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Gate doesn't need two paedophiles.

If the story had them cut off on the Empire side and Itami needed the girls to survive, that would actually be interesting.

Sorry for the derail.

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Talking about thei story I'm writing on the thread where I'm writing it isn't a derail.

 

[Impartial Panic]

So the story ends in Mass destruction?

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Chinese agents destroy the gate before that happens, strands the JSDF garrison there for a while.

Later the cute mage girl uses a divine conduit and her magic to open short term gates
as she lacks the ability to make a full gate.

IIRC the gods also are less than amused that she is using earth scientific knowledge to improve her magic.
I think they told her to keep it to herself because if she tries passing that stuff on they'll send all their apostles after her.

Anime and Light novel diverge on a few things and the manga is still on going though looks like it's following colser to the light novel.

and now Paul has dropped in and as usual Paul "ruins" everything.

 

[Vaermina]

and now Paul has dropped in and as usual Paul "ruins" everything.

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The God's are actually enjoying what Paul is doing here.

Do you know how I know? Because otherwise they would have sent Apostles to destroy his Ring.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Chinese agents destroy the gate before that happens, strands the JSDF garrison there for a while.

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It's the middle of a city in the middle of Japan, surrounded by soldiers at all hours. How the heck did that happen?

Later the cute mage girl uses a divine conduit and her magic to open short term gates
as she lacks the ability to make a full gate.

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Man, I remember getting to the point where one of the gods used her as a host after we were assured that was fatal for mortals. I was shocked. I started paying attention, because I thought that even if they didn't kill her off the characters would have to work at keeping her alive.

And then she was completely fine with no added work at all.

 

[Bud-E]

I was waiting for it to get good.

I mean, the basic concept is great. It's X-Com in reverse, with Japan having to leverage superior technology against an mystical foe while keeping an eye out for their enemies at home trying something. Except... No. It's a cakewalk. People fall over themselves to work for/with the Japanese and there's nothing at all that can threaten them.

I've seen good Gate fanfics before. There was one where the Gate opened in Washingto DC just after the American Civil War. And the Princes were apostles, because obviously the Emperor would have his family enhanced by magic. The others were from the Sanderan point of view as they work out how to cope with an apparently unbeatable enemy. The Japanese side just... Isn't. Making it more plausible and adding in Americans just turns it into even more of a stomp.

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Can you link that fanfic cause it sounds amazing!

 

[Mr Zoat]

Can you link that fanfic cause it sounds amazing!

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The Union Forever, but it's not very long and pretty dead.

 

[Impartial Panic]

It's the middle of a city in the middle of Japan, surrounded by soldiers at all hours. How the heck did that happen?

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Diabo was going to trade Lelei to the Chinese in exchange for 10,000 heavily armed Chinese soldiers to kick the JSDF out the way and decimate Zorzal's force as well as taking the throne from Pina.

Instead a Chinese agent planted a bomb at the gate and depending on the version of Gate Diabo is caught in the explosion.

as to how they pulled it off, black ops is bullshit yo.

and for an arc Gate becomes a starship troopers crossover

The God's are actually enjoying what Paul is doing here.

Do you know how I know? Because otherwise they would have sent Apostles to destroy his Ring.

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Most Pauls have a habit of trying to uplift societies, so they may have fun now but his novelty will fade.
The gods take a dim view of possible uplifts since they don't want the mortals to start asking why do they need gods.

Also Paul tends to piss off divine beings more often than not just be being Paul.

 

[Vaermina]

Most Pauls have a habit of trying to uplift societies, so they may have fun now but his novelty will fade.
The gods take a dim view of possible uplifts since they don't want the mortals to start asking why do they need gods.

Also Paul tends to piss off divine beings more often than not just be being Paul.

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That's not why the Gate God's do what they do.

The Gate God's do what they do because for some not named reason God's are bound to the planet they originated from. So if the mortals advance to the point they can leave that planet the Gate God's will be left all alone.

 

[Coda]

Diabo shrugs languidly. "How much did you get when it opened?

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Missing closing quote.

 

[Prince Charon]

And on the list goes. Alchemy, magic items, prognostication. Any edge that could have made the conflict even slightly interesting either doesn't exist or the locals are too foolish to use them effectively.

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Unfortunately, that seems to be the point. The author of GATE is a jingoistic jackass, but he was also a soldier who started the story to entertain his own unit while in the JGSDF, not to create a thought-provoking narrative or a well-researched fantasy novel. He knew how to write dialogue, I think, but had a poor understanding of a lot of other aspects of storytelling, on top of not thinking that the fantasy folk being able to seriously challenge him or his friends would be fun for him. It's a jingoistic power-trip that got some attention, which lead to manga and anime being made that got a bunch more attention, which kept it from fading away before most of us had even heard of it.

 

[Mr Zoat]

13th February 2013
18:52 GMT -5

"Wait."

Dreamer perks up, looking around with renewed interest.

"I think… I can feel something." "Show me the dreams of compassion."

Ring, any ideas?

Possible matches found.

Could just fly there, but from the look on Dreamer's face she's trying to do something difficult with her power. A delay of a few minutes is worth it if it gets her confidence-

A phantasmal image of Lantern Ub'x appears a short distance above us and then flies… In the direction of one of the points suggested by my ring. Vykin accelerates the Forevercar after it, and Lightray, B'dg and I fly after them.

-back, so I'll let her take the initiative.

The Ub'x illusion, is…

"Dreamer, your illusions. How reliable is it for accurately recording facial expressions?"

"That depends. If I use it to show something someone did, it will be accurate. If I try to use it to find out what they were thinking or saying, it's more… Representational."

The Ub'x illusion turns to look down at us. "This doesn't have anything to do with you, Orange Lantern."

"I know, I just want to talk to you." I frown. "Wait, can he-?"

"And I don't want to talk to you. Not yet, at least."

"We've already spoken. On board.. Ranx… Dreamer, is this impression based on what he was when he was here?"

"Yes. If he was here before he met you, it won't be able to tell you anything about your meeting."

"Thank you. Okay, Doctor Ub'x, why don't you want to meet me?"

"I don't want to be involved with either the Guardians or the Controllers. Not… Yet."

"Then you probably shouldn't have picked up a power ring."

"No one owns a universal emotion."

"No, but the Guardians have mostly done a good job as regulators of certain forms of technology. You -on the other hand- come with certain baggage."

"Do you know how many species the people of Maltus have destroyed?"

"My species exists today because they destroyed the Burning Martians, so I'm probably the wrong person to use that explanation on."

"Their judgement is impacted by their lack of contact with other emotions."

"Our judgement is impacted by our contact with other emotions. If someone has to make decisions affecting the entire universe, being completely impartial about it is-. Why am I arguing this with you, you're not actually here."

"Empathy. I'd be interested to learn that you still do things like that."

"I assure you that you weren't."

"I can't just drop everything to pay attention to you, you know."

"Why not? I'm the most important thing in the universe."

Ub'x gives me a funny look. The problem is that since he's an unusually vertical beaver it makes me want to scratch him under the chin, rather than reconsider what I just said.

And I think he realises-. Or Dreamer realises, or something like that. In any case, he looks away from me.

"Lantern B'dg, please stop."

"No. We need to know what you're doing. They've tried to convince me not to arrest you, but I want to make certain that you're reformed for myself."

"You won't find me. I'm undetectable. And even if you did, I'm pretty good as a Lantern, and I can teleport."

"Me too. Look, do you know what the Anti-Life is?"

"No. No, I can't say that I do."

"Well, it's-. It's really bad. I just want you to spend a few minutes on my homeworld, and then you can go and do whatever you want."

"To… Get rid of this 'anti-life'?"

"Yes."

"No."

"Why no?"

"Is your world worth the entire universe? Objectively?"

"Y-. N-. Yes, for… Reasons you might know if you spoke to a maltusian."

Lightray looks at me askance. "I'm not aware of any reason to treat your world like that."

"Have you recently spoken to a maltusian?"

He smiles ruefully. "I suppose not."

"Well, there you go, then. Try asking Metron next time he appears."

He look away. "I don't want to know that badly."

The Ub'x illusion shakes his head. "I suppose I can't stop you if you're determined."

"You can't."

"And I can't stop you learning what I did here."

"You could just point us towards a different Indigo Lantern. It's not as if I need you specifically."

He frowns. "Other-?"

The images fades as the Forevercar slows to a halt. Yes, this… Does look like what the vision showed. "Dreamer, can-?"

Dreamer glares at me. "You pushed that recreation too hard. It isn't a person, just an echo of one. If you do that, it will fail and I won't be able to call it back."

"Oh. Um. So you..? Can't get whoever it was that Ub'x was talking to?"

The car lands and she walks towards the site of their meeting. "I should be able to recreate the meeting. And just that. And I should be able to summon whoever he met. But that is all."

I smile at her. "Then that's what we do."

 

[Mr Zoat]

Missing closing quote.

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Thank you, corrected.

 

[BlackCoat13]

You pushed that recreation to hard. I

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too

 

[Ngamer11]

"Is your world worth the entire universe? Objectively?"

"Y-. N-. Yes, for… Reasons you might know if you spoke to a maltusian."

Lightray looks at me askance. "I'm not aware of any reason to treat your world like that."

"Have you recently spoken to a maltusian?"

He smiles ruefully. "I suppose not."

"Well, there you go, then. Try asking Metron next time he appears."

He look away. "I don't want to know that badly."

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Does any other New God know that the Life Entity is on Earth? I assume Highfather doesn't, or else he'd consider helping Earth a higher priority.

 

[Mr Zoat]

too

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Thank you, corrected.

 

[Zig]

Does any other New God know that the Life Entity is on Earth? I assume Highfather doesn't, or else he'd consider helping Earth a higher priority.

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Also do they know Earth is the fifth world? THat's also pretty important and bad to have succumb to antilife

 

[Vaermina]

"Y-. N-. Yes, for… Reasons you might know if you spoke to a maltusian."

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It was practically pulling teeth for him to admit that.

That's hilarious.

 

[DAT_NOOB]

"Is your world worth the entire universe? Objectively?"

"Y-. N-. Yes, for… Reasons you might know if you spoke to a maltusian."

Lightray looks at me askance. "I'm not aware of any reason to treat your world like that."

"Have you recently spoken to a maltusian?"

He smiles ruefully. "I suppose not."

"Well, there you go, then. Try asking Metron next time he appears."

He look away. "I don't want to know that badly."

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"Is your world objectively more important than the universe?"

*Paul Considers the life entity and the fifth world* "Yes"

 

[Ngamer11]

Also do they know Earth is the fifth world? THat's also pretty important and bad to have succumb to antilife

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Barda was surprised when the Renegade called Earth the Fifth World, so probably not. She didn't react the same in the Paragon timeline when Paul mentioned it, but that's probably because she didn't think he was serious or was just trying to make his own homeworld sound more impressive.

 

[RoninSword]

Also do they know Earth is the fifth world? THat's also pretty important and bad to have succumb to antilife

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My understanding was that the term Fifth World is precisely because its the fifth world to play host to the Life Entity. Hinon asked Paul if he knew what happened to all the previous places that did. He mentioned that New Genesis and Apokolips used to be the previous place before they split in two. Renegade knows more about those details than Paul does.

I assumed that Highfather was aware that Earth hosts the Life Entity but that is pure speculation on my part.

 

[Chojin Patriarch]

13th February 2013
18:52 GMT -5

"Wait."

Dreamer perks up, looking around with renewed interest.

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Ah, it sounds like OL's group has a lead. Or at least the echo of one. Wonder if they're still on the 'fainting lizard' planet or they've moved on? Either way, this should be interesting to see...

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

"I think… I can feel something." "Show me the dreams of compassion."

Ring, any ideas?

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Okay, she's locking on. No doubt the Ring will find an appropriate spot.

Possible matches found.

Could just fly there, but from the look on Dreamer's face she's trying to do something difficult with her power. A delay of a few minutes is worth it if it gets get her confidence-

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Given that she needs the most help out of the five of them, it's a reasonable decision.

A phantasmal image of Lantern Ub'x appears a short distance above us and then flies… In the direction of one of the points suggested by my ring. Vykin accelerates the Forevercar after it, and Lightray, B'dg and I fly after them.

-back, so I'll let her take the initiative.

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Now, what information can they even get out of this thing? Especially if Ub'x didn't fly away after whatever meeting he had here.

The Ub'x illusion, is…

"Dreamer, your illusions. How reliable is it for accurately recording facial expressions?"

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A good question to ask, given that we still aren't clear on how much of the recreations are real events or her interpretation made manifest...

"That depends. If I use it to show something someone did, it will be accurate. If I try to use it to find out what they were thinking or saying, it's more… Representational."

The Ub'x illusion turns to look down at us. "This doesn't have anything to do with you, Orange Lantern."

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Case in point. That's just kind of disturbing.

"I know, I just want to talk to you." I frown. "Wait, can he-?"

"And I don't want to talk to you. Not yet, at least."

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...That implies that there will be a time he's willing to talk.

"We've already spoken. On board.. Ranx… Dreamer, is this impression based on what he was when he was here?"

"Yes. If he was here before he met you, it won't be able to tell you anything about your meeting."

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Man, her ability is kind of powerful, yet kind of quirky. I suppose that's why their group was training together...

"Thank you. Okay, Doctor Ub'x, why don't you want to meet me?"

"I don't want to be involved with either the Guardians or the Controllers. Not… Yet."

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But someday, it'll be fine for you to cooperate? Something to look forwards to...

"Then you probably shouldn't have picked up a power ring."

"No one owns a universal emotion."

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Not that that's stopped the Guardians from trying.

"No, but the Guardians have mostly done a good job as regulators of certain forms of technology. You -on the other hand- come with certain baggage."

"Do you know how many species the people of maltus have destroyed?"

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More than they'd wanted to, but not as many as deserved it, I bet.

"My species exists today because they destroyed Burning Martians, so I'm probably the wrong person to use that explanation on."

"Their judgement is impacted by their lack of contact with other emotions."

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You could say the same about Lanterns. Remind me, whose brain is actively flooded with an Emotional Light right now?

"Our judgement is impacted by our contact with other emotions. If someone has to make decisions affecting the entire universe, being completely impartial about it is-. Why am I arguing this with you, you're not actually here."

"Empathy. I'd be interested to learn that you still do things like that."

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Honestly, OL is pretty compassionate when he can afford to be.

"I assure you that you weren't."

"I can't just drop everything to pay attention to you, you know."

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Well, OL isn't going to stop chasing you until you do.

"Why not? I'm the most important thing in the universe."

Ub'x gives me a funny look. The problem is that since he's an unusually vertical beaver it makes me want to scratch him under the chin, rather than reconsider what I just said.

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To be honest, anyone would be tempted to do that if they met an anthropomorphic beaver... Though there are limits on how appealing anthros can be.

And I think he realises-. Or Dreamer realises, or something like that. In any case, he looks away from me.

"Lantern B'dg, please stop."

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Ah, changing tack? Not that the real Ub'x is likely to be aware of this. But if the impression thinks Ub'x would try this tack, well, then....

"No. We need to know what you're doing. They've tried to convince me not to arrest you, but I want to make certain that you're reformed for myself."

"You won't find me. I'm undetectable. And even if you did, I'm pretty good as a Lantern, and I can teleport."

Click to shrink...

Don't underestimate how tenacious a protagonist can be when he has something he wants.

"Me too. Look, do you know what the Anti-Life is?"

"No. No, I can't say that I do."

Click to shrink...

And that's probably a good thing.

"Well, it's-. It's really bad. I just want you to spend a few minutes on my homeworld, and then you can go and do whatever you want."

"To… Get rid of this 'anti-life'?"

Click to shrink...

...Hopefully.

"Yes."

"No."

"Why no?"

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Man, I am impressed that this psychic projection is getting this kind of reaction from OL.

"Is your world worth the entire universe? Objectively?"

"Y-. N-. Yes, for… Reasons you might know if you spoke to a maltusian."

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...Not that they'd willingly tell you anything about it. More likely they'd simply give a 'It's secret for a very good reason' excuse or something.

Lightray looks at me askance. "I'm not aware of any reason to treat your world like that."

"Have you recently spoken to a maltusian?"

Click to shrink...

Boy, are you in for a surprise, 'Ray.

He smiles ruefully. "I suppose not."

"Well, there you go, then. Try asking Metron next time he appears."

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...Could we not? Metron is... Not fun to talk to.

He look away. "I don't want to know that badly."

The Ub'x illusion shakes his head. "I suppose I can't stop you if you're determined."

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And if there's one thing Green lanterns are good at...

"You can't."

"And I can't stop you learning what I did here."

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...It's sticking to their goals.

"You could just point us towards a different Indigo Lantern. It's not as if I need you specifically."

He frowns. "Other-?"

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I wonder how vocal other Indigo Tribesmen are. In the comics, some can barely speak outside of a few words of their secret language. Mostly 'Nok'.

The images fades as the Forevercar slows to a halt. Yes, this… Does look like what the vision showed. "Dreamer, can-?"

Dreamer glares at me. "You pushed that recreation too hard. It isn't a person, just an echo of one. If you do that, it will fail and I won't be able to call it back."

Click to shrink...

...Well, shit. Could have mentioned that sooner, Dreamer.

"Oh. Um. So you..? Can't get whoever it was the Ub'x was talking to?"

The car lands and she walks towards the site of their meeting. "I should be able to recreate the meeting. And just that. And I should be able to summon whoever he met. But that is all."

I smile at her. "Then that's what we do."

Click to shrink...

Let's hope it provides useful information, then.

The projection of Ub'x must have been lifelike for OL and B'dg to react to it like that. Which says something about the depth and power of Dreamer's talent. Pity it seems to have such strict rules on its usage. It'll be especially strange to see who he was meeting, and hear from them why.

---

"Do you know how many species the people of maltus have destroyed?"

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"Do you know how many species the people of Maltus have destroyed?"