With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[boo600]

I don't think it'll be that difficult to convince Superman that letting someone that committed a genocide raise a child is not the best of ideas.

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Eeeehhhh… he can be a great person, but as the Daxamites proved, he can also be a stubborn, stupid jackass. Note that the only thing he apologized for regarding that incident was trying to kill Paul - specifically, the thing he was mind controlled into doing. The one thing he knew Paul would forgive him for, or rather, that there was nothing to forgive, because he was mind controlled and couldn't be held accountable for his actions.

His morality demands that he see his moral code as the highest thing - and a lot of the time, he can be what the newest Superman movie was. "People were going to die." "Of course I put him against a cactus; he was trying to commit genocide." Clark can be amazing, a determined person trying to do good in a world that keeps getting murky and daring people to do nothing, out of fear of the consequences.

Or he can follow a code that says that drug users are bad, black and white. That women don't commit genocide, and mothers are always blameless, and should always be in charge of their child as long as they aren't outright molesting them/trying to kill them, since they love them. Old-fashioned and based on a ton of unsupported assumptions - he can be Golden Age Superman, who attacked weapons dealers and beat back physical abusers, or he can be what the corporations turned him into, a pretty supermodel talking about how it would be great if we all just got along and smiled at each other and trusted the system - and in this case, I'm not hopeful, because it's connected to his blind spots (Krypton, and parents).

 

[Darko]

Eeeehhhh… he can be a great person, but as the Daxamites proved, he can also be a stubborn, stupid jackass. Note that the only thing he apologized for regarding that incident was trying to kill Paul - specifically, the thing he was mind controlled into doing. The one thing he knew Paul would forgive him for, or rather, that there was nothing to forgive, because he was mind controlled and couldn't be held accountable for his actions.

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To be fair to Superman about the Daxamite situation, you have to remember that it wasn't that long ago that Paul drugged Batman with a serum that turned him into a psychopath.

Bruce is Clark's friend and now Clark has to watch as his friend turns into a dictator.

What Paul did may have been necessary and got rid of Anti-Life, but it was still messed up.

The outcome of his actions may be good, but the actions themselves leave a lot to be desired.

It's not that difficult to imagine that Superman would want a second opinion instead of just taking Paul at his word.

Even if he knew that Paul wasn't lying, he also knows that Paul has a...unique way of seeing things.

 

[Wivk]

I can break these cuffs. You can't break those cuffs. RRRAWWWUGH

 

[Attention Counting]

Eeeehhhh… he can be a great person, but as the Daxamites proved, he can also be a stubborn, stupid jackass. Note that the only thing he apologized for regarding that incident was trying to kill Paul - specifically, the thing he was mind controlled into doing. The one thing he knew Paul would forgive him for, or rather, that there was nothing to forgive, because he was mind controlled and couldn't be held accountable for his actions.

His morality demands that he see his moral code as the highest thing - and a lot of the time, he can be what the newest Superman movie was. "People were going to die." "Of course I put him against a cactus; he was trying to commit genocide." Clark can be amazing, a determined person trying to do good in a world that keeps getting murky and daring people to do nothing, out of fear of the consequences.

Or he can follow a code that says that drug users are bad, black and white. That women don't commit genocide, and mothers are always blameless, and should always be in charge of their child as long as they aren't outright molesting them/trying to kill them, since they love them. Old-fashioned and based on a ton of unsupported assumptions - he can be Golden Age Superman, who attacked weapons dealers and beat back physical abusers, or he can be what the corporations turned him into, a pretty supermodel talking about how it would be great if we all just got along and smiled at each other and trusted the system - and in this case, I'm not hopeful, because it's connected to his blind spots (Krypton, and parents).

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No offense but I feel like you're projecting a certain view onto Superman that doesn't match the characterization of him in the story. Frankly speaking, him sneaking off to Daxam to confirm for himself was genuinely the right thing to do given what he knew. Paul has shown to have a very different modus operandi that is at odds with the Justice League and he hasn't really cultivated the relationship with the League for them to believe him with no pushback.

Superman being weird on the upcoming issue is a given as you've rightly pointed out that it's connected to the things he's more sensitive about. However, until we see what he actually does, I feel like any judgement would be premature.

 

[Lord Ernest]

No offense but I feel like you're projecting a certain view onto Superman that doesn't match the characterization of him in the story. Frankly speaking, him sneaking off to Daxam to confirm for himself was genuinely the right thing to do given what he knew. Paul has shown to have a very different modus operandi that is at odds with the Justice League and he hasn't really cultivated the relationship with the League for them to believe him with no pushback.

Superman being weird on the upcoming issue is a given as you've rightly pointed out that it's connected to the things he's more sensitive about. However, until we see what he actually does, I feel like any judgement would be premature.

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I mean, I give grieve to the Illustres for being so weird and villain-forgiving, but I don't doubt his good intentions nor his, frankly, strange honesty. He doesn't shy from reporting his weird and sometimes even objectionable actions. That Superman doesn't trust Paul to the level that he had to go check himself, even when the Illustres has saved or helped to save the world multiple times?

And let's not forget, not trusting Paul's word led to Superman opening himself to corruption/mind control and if the Illustres wasn't who he is, Superman would have killed a fellow hero that he apparently didn't trust.

The Illustres does have a different Modus Operandi and he doesn't want the Justice League to follow his, but that doesn't mean that every decision or action he makes has to be double checked by them. He might not be as close to most of the members, but I believe he merits some trust from everyone after everything he has done. Superman wouldn't even know of Daxam if Paul hadn't told him, in the first place.

 

[Neruz]

It's not that Superman doesn't trust Paul, it's that Superman understands that Paul doesn't always view things through the same lens that he does, and Paul's perspective on things can sometimes be... not necessarily biased but unusual compared to the average human being.

Double checking something extreme to make sure that you have understood Paul correctly and aren't making the wrong assumptions is pretty reasonable given his track history. It is rather unfortunate that in that instance it resulted in mind control, but this is the DC-verse, getting unexpectedly mind controlled is just a reality that you have to deal with sometimes.

e: Also like, Paul isn't perfect, he can and has made mistakes. When you're dealing with something serious like potential child kidnapping it is entirely sensible to double check and make sure that everything lines up correctly.

I wouldn't be surprised if Superman fully expected to find out that everything that Paul had said about Daxam was true, but he decided to double check just in case, which is really not unreasonable. Trusting people is fine, but when something is important you double check anyway just to be sure, because sometimes shit happens.

 

[Silverias]

Not really.

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...you're joking, right?

That's a MASSIVE violation of any form of bodily autonomy the person might have.

 

[boo600]

To be fair to Superman about the Daxamite situation, you have to remember that it wasn't that long ago that Paul drugged Batman with a serum that turned him into a psychopath.

Bruce is Clark's friend and now Clark has to watch as his friend turns into a dictator.

What Paul did may have been necessary and got rid of Anti-Life, but it was still messed up.

The outcome of his actions may be good, but the actions themselves leave a lot to be desired.

It's not that difficult to imagine that Superman would want a second opinion instead of just taking Paul at his word.

Even if he knew that Paul wasn't lying, he also knows that Paul has a...unique way of seeing things.

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…he hasn't had any unease at 'seeing Batman turn into a dictator.' We've seen him talk to Paul about Batman; he trusts Batman, so his basic assumption is that he isn't doing anything wrong. Once he knew Paul undid the formula, he dropped it.

And frankly, yes, Paul should have had more backups. He should have noticed that he didn't have a boom tube equivalent and made contacts with more of his alternative selves, or with morally decent yellow lanterns in other verses. He should have been prepared, and even the way he dosed Batman was stupid; he nearly got himself killed in a surprise attack. Heck, he could have used Crane.

But he very much saved the world at the last second by doing so, after trying and failing to find an alternative for multiple arcs. That's a desperation move, and not typical of him; it can be used to show how far he'll go, but not what his typical behavior was like.

And he did inform them of how bad Sodom had it, if indirectly. With Diana, who can hear outright lies.

If Superman thought Paul was lying, or hiding something about how secretly evil his actions were? Truth lasso. "What are you hiding about this?" "Is there anything you think you haven't considered?" Etc.

It's such a basic, Perfect effect - designed to end nonsense like this - and Diana had it, in the room. It makes them look progressively dumber each time they sneak around rather than just pushing the win button; kind of like when they didn't Lasso Clone Roy as he babbled about moles and in-universe mentioned mind control when talking about Kon. In canon. For fuck's sake, it takes five minutes to clear this stuff up!

Which it did. In canon. After Lex repeatedly used Red Sun on Kon, he finally went to M'gann for help after the Big Reveal… meaning they never checked for something that wouldn't be his fault, even when Red Arrow admitted that it was a way someone could be the more while still being trustworthy as a person. Because, you know.

You can't really have things like the Lasso or Judge's Ear Technique in an intrigue plot. They sort of take those plots behind a shed out back and shoot them.

No offense but I feel like you're projecting a certain view onto Superman that doesn't match the characterization of him in the story. Frankly speaking, him sneaking off to Daxam to confirm for himself was genuinely the right thing to do given what he knew. Paul has shown to have a very different modus operandi that is at odds with the Justice League and he hasn't really cultivated the relationship with the League for them to believe him with no pushback.

Superman being weird on the upcoming issue is a given as you've rightly pointed out that it's connected to the things he's more sensitive about. However, until we see what he actually does, I feel like any judgement would be premature.

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Truth. Lasso. And in that previous example, he gave them more than enough reason to understand how awful Daxam and Ms. Yat were; they just ignored him. If they didn't trust him? Truth lasso. If they seriously thought he was committing a crime and lying about it? Truth lasso. It was in the fucking room, and he would have consented in a hot second to being lassoed, because he's done that before, time and time again.

I mean, I give grieve to the Illustres for being so weird and villain-forgiving, but I don't doubt his good intentions nor his, frankly, strange honesty. He doesn't shy from reporting his weird and sometimes even objectionable actions. That Superman doesn't trust Paul to the level that he had to go check himself, even when the Illustres has saved or helped to save the world multiple times?

And let's not forget, not trusting Paul's word led to Superman opening himself to corruption/mind control and if the Illustres wasn't who he is, Superman would have killed a fellow hero that he apparently didn't trust.

The Illustres does have a different Modus Operandi and he doesn't want the Justice League to follow his, but that doesn't mean that every decision or action he makes has to be double checked by them. He might not be as close to most of the members, but I believe he merits some trust from everyone after everything he has done. Superman wouldn't even know of Daxam if Paul hadn't told him, in the first place.

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Truth Lasso, and… yes. Even if he isn't a flawless superhero, Paul has indeed earned some trust - enough that Smilexing Batman was an unforeseen, unforgivable betrayal, even when (as stupid as it was that he ended up in that situation in the first place) it was the only way to make the White Light and stop the Anti-Life.

I mean, for fuck's sake. Talk to Hinon about tracking down Lord Protector, and use the fact that Mr. Miracle has a mother box that can, as R!Grayven has shown, casually open book tubes to other universes if you know where you want to go. Prepare for the worst, you're in DC!

But yeah. And if we want to go for outright ad hominem, I could say that the League was complicit in exploiting a slave in Mr. Zatara, something which they've never really seen any punishment or accountability for, so why doesn't Paul have to double check everything they do? But outside of that, and their insistence on leaving open wide windows of weakness for every Master, Stranger, Trump and Stranger to take advantage of… they've mostly been ok. So he doesn't. Because it's not representative of their general behavior.

 

[Neruz]

Diana's lasso forces you to tell the truth as you understand it.

It is entirely possible to tell the truth as you understand it and just be wrong.

That's not even getting into whether forcing an ally to submit to mind control is a more reasonable course of action than just, like, taking a look for yourself to make sure.


If Daxam was known for mind controlling people then sure going to take a look would be stupid. But they weren't, there was literally zero reason to believe that going to Daxam would result in Superman being mind controlled.

You cannot predict everything and sudden unexpected mind control is one of those things that is impossible to always predict in the DC-verse, sometimes you just have to deal with it.

 

[Attention Counting]

That Superman doesn't trust Paul to the level that he had to go check himself, even when the Illustres has saved or helped to save the world multiple times?

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It's not about trust. I'll refer you to Mr Zoat's own words.

Regarding Superman taking a trip to Daxam himself... The SI is not a member of the Justice League. Superman is effectively his superior. Him wanting to get an idea for himself what Daxam is like is completely reasonable, and the SI didn't know that the Eradicator Program was there. Is there something I'm missing?

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The Illustres does have a different Modus Operandi and he doesn't want the Justice League to follow his, but that doesn't mean that every decision or action he makes has to be double checked by them. He might not be as close to most of the members, but I believe he merits some trust from everyone after everything he has done. Superman wouldn't even know of Daxam if Paul hadn't told him, in the first place.

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The Justice League has shown trust though. Mind you, they learned of the situation when the birth mother framed it as her child being kidnapped. See the following except.

"Green Lantern." She sounds like she is only reluctantly talking to him, but that's more than I managed. "You are a police officer for this world?"

"For this region of space. And unless you've got a very good reason to be here, I'm going to need you to turn your ship around."

"Yes. I do. My name is Cara Yat. My son has been kidnapped, and I have reason to believe that he is being held here. I want him returned, at once."

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"Paul…" Superman looks decidedly disappointed. "Child kidnapping?"

I nod. "Effectively, yes."

He dips his head, sighs, then looks down the Watchtower table to Diana.

"We'd like an explanation, Paul."

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Then in part 8, Paul gave his rundown on events and he only faced some questioning from the JL. From our perspective, it's annoying as we know OL is right and Daxam really is that bad, but that's the burden of being a reader, I guess.

Truth. Lasso. And in that previous example, he gave them more than enough reason to understand how awful Daxam and Ms. Yat were; they just ignored him. If they didn't trust him? Truth lasso. If they seriously thought he was committing a crime and lying about it? Truth lasso. It was in the fucking room, and he would have consented in a hot second to being lassoed, because he's done that before, time and time again.

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The Truth Lasso makes the user give the truth as they see it, cutting through those little lies we tell ourselves while doing so. It isn't Google. It's entirely possible that he could've gotten the situation completely wrong in which the Lasso wouldn't do anything except confirm OL's personal truth.

Also, nothing screams "we don't trust you" like OL being forcibly made to tell the truth, an action which would spit in the face of his good works. The only times OL has been truth lassoed has been to confirm to reality that he was alive during Zagreus' Anti-Life retrieval and when he was interrogated after the death of Nabu. Hardly, "time and time again" as you put it.

Given everything, the Justice League would've been in the wrong to Truth Lasso him.

 

[boo600]

He has offered and willingly submitted to Truth Lasso more times than that - see Coup Data, for example. Diana hasn't always gone through with it (even after he volunteered), and it was especially hit-and-run early on, when he did indeed get Truth Lassoed by Kaldur to confirm her wasn't the mole - namely, because it got him high as a kite and rendered him rapidly incoherent.

But it's still a perfect effect that discourages self-deception. And forcing the lasso on him is not the same as offering to let him use the lasso to confirm what he's talking about. Especially when he brings it up on occasion, and genuinely believes (if perhaps foolishly) that magical truth compulsion comes with no downsides if you have nothing to hide. It means that they have no excuse to say, "Well, I didn't really believe him." What he told them about Daxam, combined with his empathic abilities and what he told them about Sodom Yat in particular was enough for them to back off. They didn't, because the words Cara Yat used pushed their buttons, even after he outright told them that Sodom could go back whenever he wanted (literally, because Orange Power Ring), was kept away from the fighting, and that his father tried to murder a castaway in front of him after he befriended the castaway. Instead of asking for more details on Daxam? They kept telling him how important this Accusation was.

And if they'd agreed with Cara Yat, and tried to enforce their will? Sodom would likely have simply left Earth and gone to Maltus, outside of their jurisdiction. Given how they acted, I'm hesitant to applaud their 'restraint' and 'even-handedness' in a situation where they lacked total dominance; they gave the impression that they would have indeed handed Sodom back to his mother bar immediate accusations of 'yes, she was planning on sacrificing him to the Ebon Dragon for the Broken Winged Crane."

I'm not saying they're the most evil people in the world. But I didn't spend that entire arc feeling a visceral loathing for them solely out of trauma.