With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Maxx Crowley]

"National Socialists."

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I can't hear her protests over the label over the pile of don't care. Nazi.

 

[Mr Zoat]

If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it is a duck. And if a character has some of the history and characteristicsof his post flashpoint character then he is more or less like that portrayal of that character, minus being crazy because of an alien scarab, like post fp Ahri'ahn was portrayed as, and probably being more in line with his pre fp personality

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Don't you bring your 'reason', 'logic' or 'evidence' into this, boy.

You already used one concept that was first introduced in the post fp comics, that being Kon's name meaning abomination and Kryptons less than stellar history with clones, all of which were introduced during Supergirl and that whole H'el thing, though in your case you made your version of kryptonians history with their clones less bloody, them being given rights while in the comics they went to war.
At least i'm highly positive that this concept was introduced in post fp, because i haven't been able to find any evidence to the contrary.

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No, 1988.

And while time travel may be off the table, magical preservation or hibernation, like what Karmang uses, hasn't been taken off so that could be a way to introduce the Raven's and Ahri'ahn.

Speaking of time travel, what happened to those time travelers that appeared in the paragon side before the Mandated episode?

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They're presently in limbo, their location to be retroactively determined once they become relevent to the story again.

 

[rdfox]

wow, DC really has creative writers, huh? Just, what astonishing originality!

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In fairness, German is a very literal language. For example, everyone knows German submarines as "U-boats," but most people don't realize that the term is a shortening of the German word Unterseeboote, which literally translates as "under-sea boat." The German word for "truck" (or "lorry," if you prefer) is Lastkraftwagen, which translates directly as "heavy-load move-by-force car." All German Army combat vehicles, at least during World War Two, were given a catalogue number in the Sonderkraftfahrzeug series; while that is generally translated as "Special vehicle," by dint of breaking it up into Sonder (special) and Kraftfarhzeug (motor vehicle), if you really break it down all the way into the individual words, it's "Special move-by-force drive thing." (A good rule of thumb for German is that if the language needs a word for something that nobody had ever come up with before, it will either get a loan-word from another language--like how the English "rocket" became the German Raketen--or it will end up being given a name that is, essentially, "thing that does [whatever it does]." For example, Flugzeug for "airplane" being literally "fly thing," or Raumfahrzeug, "spaceship," being literally "space drive thing.") One more example: the English "tank" is, in German, Panzerkampfwagen, literally translating as "armored war car," or, slightly less awkwardly, as "armored fighting vehicle"--which is the term the US Army uses to refer to all armored vehicles used in combat roles, in a generic sense, and is closer to the way the WW2 German Army used PzKw (the military abbreviation) than "tank" is; it includes things like armored personnel carriers and armored reconnaissance vehicles, not just actual battle tanks. (As a side note, the verbal shorthand used by soldiers on both sides in WW2, "Panzer," has actually changed its meaning in German these days. While it still literally just means "armor," it now is never used in that way and is just used to refer to tanks; when referring to armor itself, apparently, the words Rüstung, Harnisch, or even Panzerstahl--literally "armor steel"--are used instead.)

And then there's the animals... this flowchart sums it up better than I can:

So I'd say that their Aquaman equivalent being Unterseemann isn't at all implausible. Not to mention that most of the JLA's Big Seven don't exactly have highly creative names, either. "Super man," "Bat man," "Water man," "Wonder Woman..." man, they were really uncreative in naming their characters, weren't they?

 

[Darko]

Testy, testy aren't we Zoat.

Thanks for that Black Zero link, but I am still pretty sure Kon meaning abomination is post fp.

My final questions for the day, who would OL recruit from the Nasuverse, specifically the Fate franchise?
My bet is Diarmuid, he seems like someone that Xor can relate to.
I am asking Zoat but anyone can give their opinion on this.

If the renegade meets the Teen Titans then will he find out about Raul?
Or will they be from a universe where Raul doesn't exist?
Will they simply not mention Raul because they think the renegade is an alien, while they think Raul is simply a human from their earth?

Can you give us a description of what Sauls relationship with The Seven and Butchers team is like?
Did he help Maeve and Hughie and if so then how?

 

[ForeverShogo]

Kind of psychotic given her only "crime" is that she grew up under Nazi rule, after the nastiest stuff had already happened.

==

Basically created two different versions of a hypothetical Earth 10 map.

One if the Germans turned on the Spanish and Italians. Another if they didn't. With the non-betrayal map mostly just being because Overgirl's reaction to being called Fascist is to just get confused and say, "I'm not Italian."

Africa is mostly just based on the idea of a Nazi Mittelafrika. Slightly expanded from their ideas on what it would encompass, since the plans were drawn up when Hitler still thought he could somehow talk the British into being his ally.

Kind of unfortunate that Turkey and the Arab Empire use the same color.

Asia is about as close as to Japan's plans for the Co-Prosperity Sphere as I could get without driving myself nuts dealing with Paradox's questionable state/province borders.

The German-Japanese border is the Yenisei River. Which is what the two agreed would be their natural border should the Soviet Union be completely destroyed.

About the only change I'd consider making to either map would involve Oregon and California. The Japanese toyed with the idea of merging the two into a puppet state, but never really took it seriously. Which means, yes, they did seriously consider grabbing everything from Alaska to Washington.

Or I guess you could just ignore everything and assume, being a bonkers comic book, ALL of Earth 10 is part of the Greater Germanic Reich. And Earth 10 is almost exclusively White.

Still pretty bonkers, but, well, English is a dead language on Earth 10 . . .

 

[Mr Zoat]

Testy, testy aren't we Zoat.

Thanks for that Black Zero link, but I am still pretty sure Kon meaning abomination is post fp.

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But was it established that it didn't mean that before Final Crisis?

My final questions for the day, who would OL recruit from the Nasuverse, specifically the Fate franchise?
My bet is Diarmuid, he seems like someone that Xor can relate to.
I am asking Zoat but anyone can give their opinion on this.

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Don't know, never watched/read/played it.

If the renegade meets the Teen Titans then will he find out about Raul?

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He might, if it came up in conversation.

Or will they be from a universe where Raul doesn't exist?

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That's also possible.

Will they simply not mention Raul because they think the renegade is an alien, while they think Raul is simply a human from their earth?

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The Red Lantern version wouldn't recognise Grayven, certainly.

Can you give us a description of what Sauls relationship with The Seven and Butchers team is like?
Did he help Maeve and Hughie?

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He came up once in a discussion between Butcher and Hugie, which is about as much as they bother with him.

 

[Darko]

What about The Seven then
What's his relationship with them like?

And you're still using that not mentioned before flashpoint excuse to justify putting characters and concepts that were in post fp in your story.
Granted while Ratchet was introduced pre fp we only found out about the reason he bacame a Red Lantern in the post fp Red Lantern comic.
And that going in a lake of blood to gain some semblance of control over their rage was introduced in the same comic.
Unless you can provide a link that it was introduced in pre fp.

 

[Ace Dreamer]

"Kinda." His eyes blaze with while light and

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Should that be 'white light'?

Looks like things are warming up, here.

 

[Someguy Somewhere]

Countdown to Adventure is when the blond enthusiastic Nazi Overman showed up.

DC also had another Nazi Superman pastiche- The Danner enhancile Ubermensch.

Nazis stole the Danner formula from Hugo and Ubermensch claimed to be enhanced by the same formula that made Iron Monroe what he is.

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There was also that time that DC let Stan Lee have some fun with their big names. Superman was blond there.

Spoiler: Just Imagine

 

[Sun Dog]

,Now that Stsword mentioned it, can someone explain to me what the H Dial in this story was?
I reread the episode Z-E-R-O but i am still having trouble understanding what it was.
Is it alien magi tech?
Human magi tech?
Both?
Highly advanced tech with no magic?
Pure magic?
Something else?
And Zoat if you answer this one please, please don't just write something else as the answer.

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The Dial is from the title "Dial H for Hero" which ran two years in the 60s, a bit more in the 80s and had another revival not too long ago.

The origins of the H Dial are mysterious, Robby just found the thing in a cave. All the other dials are knockoffs created with powers or insight granted by the first dial, or one that just turned up in a phone booth. The best clue we have is the mysterious symbols on it, which are Interlac, the common language of the galaxy in the 30th Century era of the Legion. This may or may not be connected to the appearance of the Dial in the Legion's title, where Time Trapper had it.

 

[Mr Zoat]

What about The Seven then
What's his relationship with them like?

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At what point? I don't think any of them would have even met him until Herogasm, and then it was just a quick conversation with John and another with Anne.

Should that be 'white light'?

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Thank you, corrected.

 

[Siskulous]

And I'm not sure that I can criticise him too harshly for not trying to topple the fascist status quo when I left the Crime Syndicate as a going concern.

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Corrections for an older post (I'm just now getting caught up on the last couple weeks.) Criticize. And...um, growing? Maybe? Or is this just a British phrase that I'm not familiar with?

Thank you, corrected.

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OK, so Maxx pointed it out already, but it seems your correction didn't stick or I wouldn't have noticed it today.

And separate from the corrections:

Is Paul active in human genetic engineering? I know that most people are irrationally afraid of it, but personally I can't wait for it to catch on.

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There are some very rational reasons to be hesitant - not fearful, mind you, but hesitant - of human genetic engineering. Starting with the fact that we don't yet (emphasis on yet) have a way of doing it safely and reliably. Every genetic change you make tends to cascade and far more often than not cause harmful genetic abnormalities. Maybe one in ten attempts at genetic engineering gets the result you're going for without side effects. That's fine when you're working with plants, and can get a pass a lot of the time when you're working with animals, but till we get better at not causing genetic dysfunctions while going for our intended results human genetic engineering is going to (and should) be relegated to medical necessity cases only.

 

[DAT_NOOB]

A conversation between Rocket and Overgirl where neither is able to physically attack the other could be quite interesting.

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I don't believe Rocket can stop heat vision?

 

[PDV]

I am a bit confused over why OL is being so indirect in his refutation of Nazi Ideology. Is there currently any reason for OL to not flat out explain that Jews and other persecuted minorities are not inherently inferior or evil?

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That is generally not a persuasive argument. The usual way is the Daryl Davis playbook; be friendly with them, be explicitly displeased when they do/show they believe something false and bigoted, demonstrate empirically that the people they consider inferior seem just like everyone else until their worldview collases under the cognitive dissonance. Paul is speedrunning the process in a fairly extreme case, so he's not going to do the exact same things, but "Are you aware that you are an evil bigot?" literally never works.

It would be effectively the reverse of the final scene in Iron Sky, and about as effective.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Corrections for an older post (I'm just now getting caught up on the last couple weeks.) Criticize. And...um, growing? Maybe? Or is this just a British phrase that I'm not familiar with?

OK, so Maxx pointed it out already, but it seems your correction didn't stick or I wouldn't have noticed it today.

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Criticise is correct if you're British.

The phrase 'going concern' would usually be used to describe a business which was in trouble but was still functioning.

 

[Queshire]

Hm? From Fate? I'd say Iskandar. The guy's not shy about his wants and his take on conquest is a lot like the Renegades. I don't know if he'd be interested in fighting the Reach beyond the possibility of seeing and conquering alien worlds from it.

I considered Gil for a moment, but... Uh...

 

[Darko]

Yeah Iskander may be able to use a orange ring and could fit into the OLC, while Gil may be able to use a orange ring helping the OLC would not be something he does.
Please mention any other characters you think could use the ring but also help the OLC in a meaningful way.
I chose Diarmuid because he wants to serve a master and seeing what Paul did with Xor I think the two would get along. Also Diarmuid really deserved a happy ending after what happened to him.

 

[Sharp Card]

There's an important distinction between genocide and extermination campaigns, the former is tha targeted killing of a large amount of people that belong to a certain group, the latter is a systemic campaign orchestrated to render a certain group extinct and that is what the Nazis did

Genocides probably aren't all that rare on the galactic scale, though with the GLC they probably aren't common either, but actively carrying out an incredibly expensive, many year long, brutal extermination of a significant chunk of your species' population for no reason other than hatred and fake science when any similarity advanced society would have dozens of other options? Probably extremely rare

Also, if you're argument of a Nazi straw man is "you're mixing up the reasons that they horribly genocided people" then you're kinda making the point for him

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The underlying reasons why the Nazis killed the Jews aren't dissimilar to why the Hutus killed Tutsis, the former was just clothed in pseudo-scientific bullshit (and an even larger helping of plain old bullshit that often gets forgotten in place of the more memorable pseudo-scientific sort. Seriously, read Mein Kampf some time and marvel at the collective stupidity of 1930s Germany). So yeah, I think it'll be pretty damn common in the galaxy.

I am a bit confused over why OL is being so indirect in his refutation of Nazi Ideology. Is there currently any reason for OL to not flat out explain that Jews and other persecuted minorities are not inherently inferior or evil?

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That would be insanely hard to prove to someone who has been brought up to believe otherwise. Large scale demographics are a messy subject that allows many many opportunities for the stubborn and emotionally motivated to go "yes, but" over and over and over again. For every example you give they'll have emotional counterexamples, for every analysis and study you show them they'll nitpick or give alternative ones (no, I'm not bitter, why do you ask?). It's a battle that, even with a power ring, would be a very hard and long fight that, frankly, wouldn't be interesting to read.

To give a feel for how hard this is, pretend you are transported into an alternative dimension where horned people really are (on average) stupider than hooved people. How would they prove that to you? There will always be confounders to every study (I bet the hooved people have hugely oppressed the horned people recently and the latter are heavily stereotyped, come from disadvantaged backgrounds and aren't given the same opportunities as hooved people).

 

[Mr Zoat]

That would be insanely hard to prove to someone who has been brought up to believe otherwise. Large scale demographics are a messy subject that allows many many opportunities for the stubborn and emotionally motivated to go "yes, but" over and over and over again. For every example you give they'll have emotional counterexamples, for every analysis and study you show them they'll nitpick or give alternative ones (no, I'm not bitter, why do you ask?). It's a battle that, even with a power ring, would be a very hard and long fight that, frankly, wouldn't be interesting to read.

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Well... He has an orange power ring. He could make it very easy and short.

 

[Darko]

He also tries not to do that unless there is no other way to convince a person.

 

[Queshire]

Yeah Iskander may be able to use a orange ring and could fit into the OLC, while Gil may be able to use a orange ring helping the OLC would not be something he does.
Please mention any other characters you think could use the ring but also help the OLC in a meaningful way.
I chose Diarmuid because he wants to serve a master and seeing what Paul did with Xor I think the two would get along. Also Diarmuid really deserved a happy ending after what happened to him.

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Hmmm.... That's a tough one... There's plenty of servants that are shameless about their wants such as Fergus, but for most of them their wants don't really extend past a good fight and a good fuck. It's also hard to think of what ones would actually benefit the OLC beyond simply giving them another Justice League tier fighter.

Musashi is another one of those that's pretty clear that she'd generally prefer to get paid or have a warm meal in exchange for her heroics, and her desire to improve her swordsmanship could lead to some intriguing results when combined with an orange ring. While generally a fighter her ability to slide between universes could lead to some interesting tactics. Unfortunately her Empyrean Eye is described as dedicating herself to one result until it becomes a reality, and that speaks of will to me.

Ishtar brings being a god to the table. She likes them gems, but she has a protective streak buried underneath her surface greed and vanity.

I don't know if Jack the Ripper would excel as an Orange Lantern, but she just wants a mommy, she's cute, and her combination of being psycho and stealth abilities would be useful.

Amakusa's plot in Apocrypha strikes me as being defined by the orange light and his personality would make him an interesting choice for an Orange Lantern. His noble phantasm allows him to basically fake any form of magic that he has the power for, though without a big enough source to plug into he probably wouldn't be able to create the sort of miniature black holes he creates in his NP in FGO. Really, he'd be best placed interacting with the local populations of alien planets.

Moriarty.... Would probably only become an Orange Lantern as part of an attempt by OL to redeem him. He could wind up doing the same thing as Sivana, but really I expect him to oppose OL and the Justice League as a supervillain for the challenge of it.

Da Vinci-chan...? Eh, she could probably use the orange light, but she's not really defined by a single emotion.

Hrmm.... While Mordred doesn't offer much beyond combat abilities, she's generally motivated by a desire to be recognized that'd make her a good target for recruitment.

Would Helena Blavatsky be better as Orange or Blue? I suppose it depends on if she desires hidden knowledge or hopes that it exists. She'd certainly love to meet aliens, and casters would be a good investment in general.

...Blackbeard can never get his hands on an orange ring...

Shakespeare would be a good choice I think. An orange ring would make up for his comparatively weak combat abilities, and his desires to see a good story play out combined with an orange ring could allow him to set up scenarios to help out the OLC.

 

[jonasquinn]

The underlying reasons why the Nazis killed the Jews aren't dissimilar to why the Hutus killed Tutsis, the former was just clothed in pseudo-scientific bullshit (and an even larger helping of plain old bullshit that often gets forgotten in place of the more memorable pseudo-scientific sort. Seriously, read Mein Kampf some time and marvel at the collective stupidity of 1930s Germany). So yeah, I think it'll be pretty damn common in the galaxy.

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The exact reasons why they did what they did isn't the important part, it's the sheer scale they operated on, especially on Earth 10, that distinguishes them from other genocides

Again it's the distinction between genocides and institutional extermination campaigns

 

[DrThoth]

Are we going to actually see Overgirl react and interact with Aqualad or will there be a time-skip?
I'd like the former but I've been disappointed before.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Are we going to actually see Overgirl react and interact with Aqualad or will there be a time-skip?
I'd like the former but I've been disappointed before.

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The former, but it's probably not as exciting as you're hoping.

 

[LazySloth13]

As far as reactions go Kaldur's reaction would be fairly tame; he identifies more with his atlantean heritage from his mother than either of his surface world fathers, Atlantis has its own form of discrimination so that isn't a new issue to him, and even if he's put off by Overgirl's presence he too much of a professional to make too large a fuss.

He's likely to comment that the existence of a world ruled nazis is a bit disturbing, question how this affected Atlantis, and ask Paul to be wary while minding her since last time they had people from alternate earth were their villainous counterparts of Earth -14.

 

[Stsword]

In this story they didn't steal it. A couple of German eugenics enthusiasts who later joined the National Socialist party met him at a conference, and they were the only ones crazy enough to take him semi-seriously. And that's how we got Ubermensch and Donner.

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Well that neatly avoids the fact that for Ubermensch to be a Danner enhancile as per the process in the comics, the Nazis must have cracked how to give the Danner treatment to those already born. Ubermensch was estimated to be about forty in the comics.

But was it established that it didn't mean that before Final Crisis?

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It was a family name, Kal-El had a cousin on Krypton named Kon-El.

So that would require that Kon-El's parents were one of those extremely obnoxious couples that think it would be funny to torture their kids with crappy names, and Superman being either too ignorant of the Kryptonian language to know better or being equally obnoxious, so while not impossible, the odds seem slim.

 

[Coda]

Well, if we assume an infinite multiverse, than there are, by definition, an infinite number of variations of the Nazi Earths.

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Not necessarily. The probability of a Nazi Earth could be zero, which means that out of an infinite number of possibilities only at most a finite number of them meet the selection criteria.

After all, there are infinitely many even numbers, and infinitely many prime numbers, but the probability of a prime number being even is zero -- yet 2 is prime.

 

[Mquz]

You people talking about Fate are forgetting the really obvious one: Shirou/ Archer's main motivation being that they WANT to Save Everyone. This isn't for compassionate reasons, or because they want to be seen as heroes, but because SAVE PERSON is the only thing that makes them feel fulfilled. This is played off as selfish and would probably make them good orange light users. Also, their main ability is basically the same kind of interdimensional hammerspace that Paul likes to use.

Hm... Kiritsugu would probably make great use of it as well.

 

[Chaoswind]

You people talking about Fate are forgetting the really obvious one: Shirou/ Archer's main motivation being that they WANT to Save Everyone. This isn't for compassionate reasons, or because they want to be seen as heroes, but because SAVE PERSON is the only thing that makes them feel fulfilled. This is played off as selfish and would probably make them good orange light users. Also, their main ability is basically the same kind of interdimensional hammerspace that Paul likes to use.

Hm... Kiritsugu would probably make great use of it as well.

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Orange lantern Shirou is a fairly interesting prospect because the guy has abnormal and inhuman wants.... I think him and current Paul could get along... If Paul can stand being around someone that has no sense of self worth beyond his capability to help others... But he doesn't want to help others and save people because he is compassionate, huh depending on the interpretation (not up to date on the Nasuverse) Shirou almost lost his soul in the cursed fire and the remains rebuild themselves around Avalon, so Shirou would also have a non standard soul too.

 

[ForeverShogo]

I thought DC's multiverse was one where there was a finite number of universes?

Also learned that there's an amalgam universe where Batman became Bat-Lantern and instead of Superman you have Super-Martian. Apparently Lex Luthor takes on the mantle of Batman when Bat-Lantern goes to do stuff in space. And that version of Lex is Super-Martian's lover.

Also glimpsed Earth 11. One of the genderbent universes. Genderbent Superman looks pretty good.