With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Darko]

South America has never really been a bastion of civil rights and good non corrupt governance, and as such many of the countries there tend to ignore the rights of the indigenous peoples and do whatever they feel like doing.

Remember when this case was first brought up in story and the members of the Team said the only reason they were being sent there was because the Brazilian member of the UN is in the pocket of some industry there.

Yeah those industrialists tend to not give a shit about native rights if they don't make some money from that.

The Brazilian government is most likely severely corrupt and in the pockets of the rich who don't care about native rights and the government also wasn't worried about what the tribes would do as they don't have armies or modern weaponry so they thought they were safe from retaliation from the tribes.

Now the governments have to take what the tribes want seriously and will have to give them something that isn't just some minor token, but something actually substantial, because the tribes now have people with super strength who can destroy their military bases just by using one of their enhanced tribesmen and make most of their weaponry useless, unless they use some chemical/biological weapons and that can lead to them getting in trouble with the UN.

Previously they had no reason to consider the complaints of the natives as more than a minor nuisance, now they need to take them seriously or risk destruction.

The best deal that I think both sides could take from this would be the various companies pay the tribes for what they want to do with the land a substantial amount and not just give them some measly pennies even though the money they made can go into the millions at least, or try to bribe some officials to look the other way while they exploit the land and the native population and the government protects the rights of the tribes from those that would seek to exploit them, this also has the benefit of lowering the overall corruption of the government as they would be less inclined to allow violations to occur if they risk having their cities destroyed. Also making sure to lower the pollution that happens in the tribes territory from outside sources.

This can prevent millions from having to relocate from their homes, thus damaging the economy on a potentially global level, and the natives will finally have a say in how they run their land without them demanding millions leave the only homes they have ever known.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Zoat, you said in the story that the tribes first claim consumed three countries and a lot of cities potentially displacing millions.

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Yes. Some areas. Not the totality of the area they intended to occupy in the event of an active war.

Of course, now that they're acting openly they're getting plenty of support from other disenfranchised groups.

 

[Hammerfury]

Seriously, the demands of the natives are stupid af. I feel like Paul is acting like a smartass for no reason.
Btw, Brazil can simply hire a supervillain that isn't wanted in their country and have him kill off the tribe.

 

[DAT_NOOB]

Note that I didn't say a superhero, supervillain, or super-powered person in general shouldn't be allowed to be in a valid state of rebellion, I just made the delineation that declaring oneself in rebellion isn't enough. Just because Poison Ivy disagrees with the government's position on conservation shouldn't automatically entitle her to the protection of foreign political recognition when she's running around committing crimes, murdering people, and using violence to promote her own views even if there is a political dimension to them. At best, that's still terrorism because she's making a unilateral judgement that civilian casualties who have nothing to do with her opposition beliefs to the government are valid targets for reprisal. At worst, she's still just a common criminal because her crimes usually have some kind of selfish financial motivation as well.

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Poison Ivy seeks to represent the green (whether or not she does is another matter), she could claim with a certain amount of validity that most governments have been committing mass murder on her "people" for centuries. In addition, she could claim that those "civilian casualties" have partaken in the murder and destruction of those she represents.

As far as governments using radical means to suppress super-powered rebellions, and putting aside whether such behavior would engender such rebellion in the first place, if the super-powered individual in question isn't open to reasonable negotiation of the matter at hand then possibly. My answer would rest on whether or not the government or state in question made sufficiently sincere attempts at resolving the matter through non-violent means.

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I'd argue the use of such powers in the first place permits a response in kind.
Although your point on resolving the matter through non-violent means holds merit, partaking in open rebellion typically mean non-violent means have been exhausted.

My entire point isn't that superpowers offer a more or less legitimate source of political power, but instead whether or not a rebellion is founded on more traditional military force or exotic force (super powers, magic, alien support), it should be held to the same standards as a rebellion without such advantages. IE: recognition of civilians as noncombatants, restraint of behavior to the rules of war, behavior in line with the good of the society they espouse to govern, respect for general human rights, popular support of the governed, etc...

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I suppose this is a difference of perspective I believe the utilisation of superpowers or exotic force as military force should be held to the same standard as weapons of mass destruction

Whether or not a government has the support of an ALMIGHTY PUNCH WIZARD like Superman shouldn't affect their legitimacy, how they abide to reasonable standards of behavior for a government
should. That applies to both a national government and any group which wants to be recognized as a state in rebellion.

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All U.N member governments have defacto support of the ALMIGHTY PUNCH WIZARDS since they agreed to a UN charter to super them by suppressing crime and supervillain attacks.
whether a government abides by a reasonable standard of behaviour is a subjective viewpoint few if any governments believe their standard of behaviour to be unreasonable.

Yes. Some areas. Not the totality of the area they intended to occupy in the event of an active war.

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if HOI4 has taught me anything its that the land in the justified war goal is substantially less than what you actually conquer

Of course, now that they're acting openly they're getting plenty of support from other disenfranchised groups.

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Thereby increasing the land they wish to occupy?

Seriously, the demands of the natives are stupid af. I feel like Paul is acting like a smartass for no reason.
Btw, Brazil can simply hire a supervillain that isn't wanted in their country and have him kill off the tribe.

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the dumb thing is then the league get's involved against the Brazillian government because it's the action of a (presumably) known criminal/supervillain.

 

[Khettien]

"Yes, it's called: 'Plan: We Have An Orbital Battlestation, and It's Pointed Downward'."

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Y'know, that is exactly why said battlestation was originally disarmed.

I have the absolute majority of people in the area of 'my study' ... does that count?

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No, because a person does not mean the same thing as a people. The former is a single individual (or, if you stretch the point, a very small group.) A people, on the other hand, is a self-sustaining ethnic and\or cultural community of persons.

This is why most micro-nations are stupid - they can't maintain themselves without external support, in the vast majority of cases.

 

[Darko]

Seriously, the demands of the natives are stupid af. I feel like Paul is acting like a smartass for no reason.
Btw, Brazil can simply hire a supervillain that isn't wanted in their country and have him kill off the tribe.

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One problem with that is finding someone willing and capable of doing that.

Remember there aren't that many high tier metahumans out there and the tribes people have at least half the strength a Kryptonian does, and there are hundreds of them. so it would be very difficult to find one capable of doing that.

The other reason is what justification do they have for doing that.

Aside from destroying some equipment and maybe injuring a few workers they haven't done anything that would warrant such a response.

Yes their demands may be a bit much, but they are at least open to negotiation.

 

[SpiritualSlacker]

I sorta missed the more interpersonal moments among the team, glad to see them back from time to time.

 

[Slayer Anderson]

Poison Ivy seeks to represent the green (whether or not she does is another matter), she could claim with a certain amount of validity that most governments have been committing mass murder on her "people" for centuries. In addition, she could claim that those "civilian casualties" have partaken in the murder and destruction of those she represents.

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I feel like this is somewhat sidestepping the actual issue I was pointing towards, as well as the fact that Poison Ivy notably doesn't have the support of the Green in this continuity. Nor, I feel, does this discussion need to be made more complex by interjecting about the validity of plants as sentient lifeforms. In that respect, Poison Ivy was a bad example to use off-the-cuff.

Regardless, and for the sake of argument, though, feel free to use someone like Toy Man or Penguin or something. Just because a villain has a disagreement with a government shouldn't entitle them to protected political status on that basis alone.

I suppose this is a difference of perspective I believe the utilisation of superpowers or exotic force as military force should be held to the same standard as weapons of mass destruction

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I'd agree if all superpowers were unilaterally destructive and deployment of super-powered assets automatically meant loss of life, but that's objectively untrue. Whether or not they can be used to destroy doesn't mean they can't also be used for humanitarian or constructive, yes still interventionist, purposes.

All governments have defacto support of the ALMIGHTY PUNCH WIZARDS since they agreed to a UN charter to super them by suppressing crime and supervillain attacks.
whether a government abides by a reasonable standard of behaviour is a subjective viewpoint few if any governments believe their standard of behaviour to be unreasonable.

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Save that at least two security council members: Russia and China, have fairly stringent rules about when, where, and to what extent the Justice League (including Superman) have the ability to intervene. They only want that support when it's convenient for them to rely on it, or there is no other option short of it.

Like, case in point, China doesn't want the Justice League intervening in 'domestic' conflicts, because they're fairly authoritarian and have a long and storied history of suppressing anti-government movements, even peaceable ones. The problem is that they're using a number of very shaky justifications to deny what a large majority of the world recognizes as an otherwise independent, self-governing nation the right to build up their own military forces. If Taiwan didn't have a preponderance of force on their side (via allies), I don't believe China would flinch at launching an invasion to quell what they see as a separatist state, but enjoys a majority support from the local populace and is otherwise well-behaved and broadly respectful of civil rights. That's less 'respecting internal disputes' and more rationalization of a military takeover.

Even given the fact that, yes, many governments try to see their actions in the best light possible for the majority of their citizenry, painting the entire matter as one of subjective decision-making misses out on the very real fact that there are objective crimes against humanity that very explicitly violate a 'reasonable' standard of behavior.

 

[Darko]

Poison Ivy doesn't really have the support of the Green as Swamp Thing, who actually represents the Green, seemed to dislike her as she may have essentially been enslaving the Green to do her bidding, as Euntanthe seemed to dislike Paul's plant control because it isn't the right way to work with the Green and Ivy also may have been using a similar method.

As for using powers that have potential for destruction in a constructive manner, but still using it in an act of secession, we'll there is the possibility of using plant control, which can be used to kill, to grow food for the separatists, who the people they are trying to separate from are trying to starve them out for their secession attempts.

 

[Ace Dreamer]

"Recognized, Aquaman, zero six, Aqualad, B zero two."

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Things are going to get wet, aren't they?

Where would He even go? I guess fanfiction. net doesn't really have any moderation for Zoat to get banned by...

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They do have moderation, and, they can get quite nasty, on occasion. Or, at least they used to.

On where to go, I suppose AO3 might be a possibility... Or, you can find authors using Wordpress, or Blogger, or... very long list, though, they don't tend to have a community of writers... Or, self-hosting a forum on your own domain... (Maybe using your own software...) Or, set-up a new country for writers, called something like 'Writers Omniversal'.

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If you're responsible for creating somewhere, does that give you the right to rule it? We've got people who could copy-paste the planet Earth, maybe into a new universe which is otherwise to their own design. Or, something more fun, like 'skin' the planet, and lay the counties on a disc world. Now, if you do that, do you get to tell all the people what to do?

This gets more interesting if you've got immense virtual world servers somewhere under your control, and you stick a country's worth of people you've mind-uploaded onto there, where you've done a somewhat credible job of faking-up a virtual copy of their physical country, with high-grade simulated physics... (I'm assuming here that mass editing of mind uploads for loyalty isn't feasible or desirable for some reason.) That 'country' has no physical continuity with anywhere, so, ignoring whether you'd pull/push the Big Red Switch, and power-down the world-servers, do you get to tell the people what to do?

 

[Chaoswind]

But the tribes want the total landmass of the entire Amazon plus the underlying plains and savannas. To the point a few territories (French Guyana, etc) will literally stop existing. They aren't a majority of the people on the territory they wish to control and are willing to use violence and terror tactics to drive out the people that doesn't want to leave these lands.


The children of the dawn are an unrecognized state claiming to be the successor of the native states that existed before colonization/genocide, thus they would gain a claim on the territory when they are actually recognized as such by the international community, not before. Until then they don't have a legal claim to anything beyond due compensation to the land that was given to them by past Brazilian administrations that has been unduly taken from them by private interest and enabled by corruption in the Brazilian government.


People have absolutely no inherent right to territorial claims, nation states do, when there is a disagreement between states as to what their territorial claims actually are the disagreements are solved by diplomacy (in all its forms). Thus "Civil wars" are actually a disagreement between the established nation state and the new nascent one and all the rules of war would thus apply.

Edit: The use of super powered troops would constitute WMDs deployment in my books exactly when these people start to cause destruction en mass and would thus warrant a proportionate response in kind.

The Brazilian government can absolutely deploy WMDs and chemical weapons when the Children of Dawm start to target the infrastructure necessary for civilian life.

 

[DAT_NOOB]

I feel like this is somewhat sidestepping the actual issue I was pointing towards, as well as the fact that Poison Ivy notably doesn't have the support of the Green in this continuity. Nor, I feel, does this discussion need to be made more complex by interjecting about the validity of plants as sentient lifeforms. In that respect, Poison Ivy was a bad example to use off-the-cuff.

Regardless, and for the sake of argument, though, feel free to use someone like Toy Man or Penguin or something. Just because a villain has a disagreement with a government shouldn't entitle them to protected political status on that basis alone.

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The SI has had a law passed that declares all sentient's human the parliament of the green is a thinking body that receives thinking information form many if not all plants ergo plants should receive human protections under the law (from a legalistic standpoint most judges would likely find it morally unconvincing).

I don't know much about toy man other than he killed superman at one point and Penguin is a gang boss not a revolutionary. I picked Ivy because there is an inherent political motive in her actions rather than simply "I committed a crime", the best pick would be Anarky or Azrael followed by Red hood but they don't exist yet. (the real best pick would be magneto but he isn't DC)

I'd agree if all superpowers were unilaterally destructive and deployment of super-powered assets automatically meant loss of life, but that's objectively untrue. Whether or not they can be used to destroy doesn't mean they can't also be used for humanitarian or constructive, yes still interventionist, purposes.

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Unilaterally of destruction is not the determining factor of what a WMD is, the determining factor of what a WMD is being a nuclear, radiological, chemical, biological, or any other weapon that can kill and bring significant harm to numerous humans or cause great damage to human-made structures, natural structures, or the biosphere.
As such most superpowered individuals count as they have the potential to cause the same or a similar level of damage. In this context, These superpowers are intended to be used as unstoppable weapons of mass destruction and should be classified as such.

Save that at least two security council members: Russia and China, have fairly stringent rules about when, where, and to what extent the Justice League (including Superman) have the ability to intervene. They only want that support when it's convenient for them to rely on it, or there is no other option short of it.

Like, case in point, China doesn't want the Justice League intervening in 'domestic' conflicts, because they're fairly authoritarian and have a long and storied history of suppressing anti-government movements, even peaceable ones. The problem is that they're using a number of very shaky justifications to deny what a large majority of the world recognizes as an otherwise independent, self-governing nation the right to build up their own military forces. If Taiwan didn't have a preponderance of force on their side (via allies), I don't believe China would flinch at launching an invasion to quell what they see as a separatist state, but enjoys a majority support from the local populace and is otherwise well-behaved and broadly respectful of civil rights. That's less 'respecting internal disputes' and more rationalization of a military takeover.

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What I meant was by enforcing the laws of a nation one gives defacto support to the existence of said nation, The fact that the justice would support the Chinese government defeat a supervillain if they requested it give them support and furthers their legitimacy.

If the league want to maintain being a non-political entity they need to see it from a legal perspective: What we have here is a superpowered group of people who have committed vandalism (yes with arguably laudable motives) and have a willingness to cause widespread social disruption through illegal means, as you stated simply because a villain has a disagreement with the government does not entitle them to political protections nor should it.

Even given the fact that, yes, many governments try to see their actions in the best light possible for the majority of their citizenry, painting the entire matter as one of subjective decision-making misses out on the very real fact that there are objective crimes against humanity that very explicitly violate a 'reasonable' standard of behavior.

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I appear to have been unclear here reasonable behaviour is subjective and not a good measurement for the legitimacy of government since although some government operate with the consent of the masses (broadly) the ultimate source of legitimacy is the monopoly of violence and use of force. If a government is unable to maintain that control they lose it, the justice league appear to help states maintain it by cracking down on super-powered criminals.

In short, helping to prevent outright anarchy gives implicit support to the local government even if you only do it because it's better than the alternative.

EDIT:

Edit: The use of super powered troops would constitute WMDs deployment in my books exactly when these people start to cause destruction en mass and would thus warrant a proportionate response in kind.

The Brazilian government can absolutely deploy WMDs and chemical weapons when the Children of Dawm start to target the infrastructure necessary for civilian life.

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Why? you're simply deploying effective weapons against a military target that's resistant to most conventional weapons?

 

[Rafin]

They have an absolute majority in some areas.

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Everyone has absolute majority in some areas. I currently hold absolute majority in the bathroom and my family as a whole has absolute majority in my house.

Anyway, I still think what OL did in Venturia was an idiot ball level move. He should have known that to everyone, friend or foe, it looks like he is not only endorsing, but enforcing Venturian independence. Sure, bla bla he isn't NEMO, and bla bla he doesn't care about politics, but come on. Let's be serious. OL is the sole NEMO representative of the planet. OL was pivotal in founding NEMO. OL could have asked any other Atlantean polity for temporary use of their archmages, including Poseidonis, since all the KordTech magi would have been okay with helping out with a crisis even when busy. OL knows that this is a direct afront not only to a JL member in good standing, but to his supposed friend Kaldur'an.
This is the first time in human history that an alien space fleet gets involved in internal Earth politics and does so with the implicit threat of military violence. And OL is the sole reason for that. If Batman doesn't tell him to cut this shit out then Batman is an idiot. The UNSC should start thinking of allowing space warfare just to repel NEMO and prevent this from becoming precedence. Hell, the Green Lantern corps was formed in part exactly to prevent this shit from happening. Reach gets away with a lot, but they would not get away with this. Let's hope for OL's sake that the Snake incident and the Guardians' reluctance to antagonize a Controller-backed organization still mean that they give him the hands off approach.
So either OL has a convoluted plan that takes all of this into account, or I'm sorry to say that this would be an idiot ball plot. OL has not been shown to be ignorant of politics, nor is he generally an idiot.
Let's see what he's trying to pull I guess.

 

[Slayer Anderson]

The SI has had a law passed that declares all sentient's human the parliament of the green is a thinking body that receives thinking information form many if not all plants ergo plants should receive human protections under the law (from a legalistic standpoint most judges would likely find it morally unconvincing).

I don't know much about toy man other than he killed superman at one point and Penguin is a gang boss not a revolutionary. I picked Ivy because there is an inherent political motive in her actions rather than simply "I committed a crime", the best pick would be Anarky or Azrael followed by Red hood but they don't exist yet. (the real best pick would be magneto but he isn't DC)

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Actually, I think I'm the one who chose Poison Ivy as an example, hence why I said she was a bad one.

Whether or not plant life is sentient and what type of sentience it possesses, if it does indeed possess it, is just confusing the issue, though. The thrust of the point was that [Criminal Insert Name Here] doesn't get to just say they're a revolutionary and benefit from that title without checking all of the other boxes. Public support, formal assumption of governance duties, open dialogue with the international community, etc... The point was that there's more to the matter than a criminal being entitled to protection just because they disagree with the popular politics of a regime.

Unilaterally of destruction is not the determining factor of what a WMD is, the determining factor of what a WMD is being a nuclear, radiological, chemical, biological, or any other weapon that can kill and bring significant harm to numerous humans or cause great damage to human-made structures, natural structures, or the biosphere.
As such most superpowered individuals count as they have the potential to cause the same or a similar level of damage. In this context, These superpowers are intended to be used as unstoppable weapons of mass destruction and should be classified as such.

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I still think it's an apples and oranges comparison, though. Regardless of the scale of death able to be caused by a WMD, their use can only inflict suffering or death.

Framing the use of superpowers, especially in DC where we have copious examples otherwise, comes across as misleading and frames capes/supers as only instruments of violence when that capacity is highlighted in such a way.

What I meant was by enforcing the laws of a nation one gives defacto support to the existence of said nation, The fact that the justice would support the Chinese government defeat a supervillain if they requested it give them support and furthers their legitimacy.

If the league want to maintain being a non-political entity they need to see it from a legal perspective: What we have here is a superpowered group of people who have committed vandalism (yes with arguably laudable motives) and have a willingness to cause widespread social disruption through illegal means, as you stated simply because a villain has a disagreement with the government does not entitle them to political protections nor should it.

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I'm not going to argue about whether or not the Brazilian tribes broke the law. They did break Brazilian law.

The inherent problem, though, is as I've said before: they have locally popular support, they have a preponderance of military force, and they are negotiating before moving to violence to address their grievances.

Whether or not they broke the national law of Brazil is, in this instance, irrelevant. The Justice League interfering in this situation obligates them to a political stance against a nominally self-governing people comprised of a structured government. Again, there is delineation between a simple criminal and a group of people who have organized themselves against a national government to formally secede. The Brazilians are very much the latter, not the former. If the Justice League intervenes in civil political dispute like this, that opens the door to a wide array of potential weaponization as regards their organization. Given your espoused opinion on the matter of superpowers as WMDs, it's admittedly a bit odd to see that you'd argue for interventionism to a greater extent, not a lesser. Especially when much of the value of WMDs is in their threat, to keep the peace, and not their use, which invites reciprocal violence on the same scale.

I appear to have been unclear here reasonable behaviour is subjective and not a good measurement for the legitimacy of government since although some government operate with the consent of the masses (broadly) the ultimate source of legitimacy is the monopoly of violence and use of force. If a government is unable to maintain that control they lose it, the justice league appear to help states maintain it by cracking down on super-powered criminals.

In short, helping to prevent outright anarchy gives implicit support to the local government even if you only do it because it's better than the alternative.

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Entire books have been written on the matter of what concerns "Reasonableness" in local, national, and international law. Inasmuch as it is subjective to a degree, there is a significant body of learned work regarding the logical underpinnings of what that standard should be held to. Reasonableness is not actually a wholly subjective rule.

Beyond speaking of "reasonableness" in a purely academic sense, though, it's also important to consider the term's meaning on the international stage. Seeming to be 'reasonable' in your approach to problem solving means that other groups can see you as a rational polity which will hold to agreements made with you. In turn, this means that other groups will not unite against you for the simple reason of being a rogue actor in international politics. As you say, this is important to keep a monopoly of violence. "Unreasonable" governments quickly find themselves suffering from alliances of foreigners to challenge their domestic monopoly of force. All of these decisions being discussed aren't made in a vacuum, after all.

 

[DAT_NOOB]

Actually, I think I'm the one who chose Poison Ivy as an example, hence why I said she was a bad one.

Whether or not plant life is sentient and what type of sentience it possesses, if it does indeed possess it, is just confusing the issue, though. The thrust of the point was that [Criminal Insert Name Here] doesn't get to just say they're a revolutionary and benefit from that title without checking all of the other boxes. Public support, formal assumption of governance duties, open dialogue with the international community, etc... The point was that there's more to the matter than a criminal being entitled to protection just because they disagree with the popular politics of a regime.

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I think I brought up Poison Ivy as an example of a supervillain in open rebellion against the US government

While I'm not sure about the qualifiers you put on it such as I do agree that there is more to a revolution than simply disagreeing with the popular politics of a regime.

I still think it's an apples and oranges comparison, though. Regardless of the scale of death able to be caused by a WMD, their use can only inflict suffering or death.

Framing the use of superpowers, especially in DC where we have copious examples otherwise, comes across as misleading and frames capes/supers as only instruments of violence when that capacity is highlighted in such a way.

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That's a fair interpretation that I think boils down to a difference in outlook.

I'm not going to argue about whether or not the Brazilian tribes broke the law. They did break Brazilian law.

The inherent problem, though, is as I've said before: they have locally popular support, they have a preponderance of military force, and they are negotiating before moving to violence to address their grievances.

Whether or not they broke the national law of Brazil is, in this instance, irrelevant. The Justice League interfering in this situation obligates them to a political stance against a nominally self-governing people comprised of a structured government. Again, there is delineation between a simple criminal and a group of people who have organized themselves against a national government to formally secede. The Brazilians are very much the latter, not the former. If the Justice League intervenes in civil political dispute like this, that opens the door to a wide array of potential weaponization as regards their organization. Given your espoused opinion on the matter of superpowers as WMDs, it's admittedly a bit odd to see that you'd argue for interventionism to a greater extent, not a lesser. Especially when much of the value of WMDs is in their threat, to keep the peace, and not their use, which invites reciprocal violence on the same scale.

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From what I understood the tribesmen were going to continue with their violent actions (which they had already moved to via vandalism) instead of negotiating with the Brazilian government and only decided to negotiate when Orange lantern and god-emperor Munro arrived, however, given the nature of your arguments I am beginning to believe I may have misinterpreted the update in question.
From what I understand I'm arguing from two scenarios concurrently.
1: The Tribesmen's continue on their current trajectory and continue committing vandalism and terrorising the local population in which case they are acting in a criminal capacity rather than a civil one, therefore, the league has grounds to intervene
2: Civil war breaks out, in which case as WMDs are the only effective weapon the Brazilian government has and the use of superpowered individuals invites reciprocal action. (entirely domestic situation assumes no league involvement)

Entire books have been written on the matter of what concerns "Reasonableness" in local, national, and international law. Inasmuch as it is subjective to a degree, there is a significant body of learned work regarding the logical underpinnings of what that standard should be held to. Reasonableness is not actually a wholly subjective rule.

Beyond speaking of "reasonableness" in a purely academic sense, though, it's also important to consider the term's meaning on the international stage. Seeming to be 'reasonable' in your approach to problem-solving means that other groups can see you as a rational polity which will hold to agreements made with you. In turn, this means that other groups will not unite against you for the simple reason of being a rogue actor in international politics. As you say, this is important to keep a monopoly of violence. "Unreasonable" governments quickly find themselves suffering from alliances of foreigners to challenge their domestic monopoly of force. All of these decisions being discussed aren't made in a vacuum, after all.

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Reasonability shifts with the personal opinions of the current population and is therefore subjective, however, you're correct in that it isn't entirely subjective as a group of people (or in this case nations) have a common agreement on what is acceptable decorum.

 

[Rafin]

No, because a person does not mean the same thing as a people. The former is a single individual (or, if you stretch the point, a very small group.) A people, on the other hand, is a self-sustaining ethnic and\or cultural community of persons.

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What's the cutoff point? Because on the one hand a farmstead can be self-sustaining and if they are a family they are ethnically distinct and if they are a cult they are a culture. On the other hand many modern nation-states aren't self-sufficient and rely on outside trade and sometimes even foreign aid.

On a different note, Mr Zoat how does the Brazil situation look in Rene!Grayven's world?

Edit: DAT_NOOB the rebels didn't officially resort to vandalism (yet). That was a single member going rogue.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Everyone has absolute majority in some areas. I currently hold absolute majority in the bathroom and my family as a whole has absolute majority in my house.

Anyway, I still think what OL did in Venturia was an idiot ball level move. He should have known that to everyone, friend or foe, it looks like he is not only endorsing, but enforcing Venturian independence. Sure, bla bla he isn't NEMO, and bla bla he doesn't care about politics, but come on. Let's be serious. OL is the sole NEMO representative of the planet. OL was pivotal in founding NEMO. OL could have asked any other Atlantean polity for temporary use of their archmages, including Poseidonis, since all the KordTech magi would have been okay with helping out with a crisis even when busy.

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For the same reason that he went to Venturia last time: they're so separated from the Atlantean mainstream that they're not taking part in the arcanotechnological revolution and as such are 'spare'.

OL knows that this is a direct affront not only to a JL member in good standing, but to his supposed friend Kaldur'an.
This is the first time in human history that an alien space fleet gets involved in internal Earth politics and does so with the implicit threat of military violence.[/quote]
How are you classing Green Lanterns?

And OL is the sole reason for that. If Batman doesn't tell him to cut this shit out then Batman is an idiot.

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No, Batman would be an idiot to give him an ultimatum like that.

The UNSC should start thinking of allowing space warfare just to repel NEMO and prevent this from becoming precedence.

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I read that as 'United Nations Space Command', and honestly wondered if that was something that really existed.

Hell, the Green Lantern corps was formed in part exactly to prevent this shit from happening. Reach gets away with a lot, but they would not get away with this.

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The Reach canonically did get away with this, and a whole lot more.

On a different note, Mr Zoat how does the Brazil situation look in Rene!Grayven's world?

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More or less as it was in the SI timeline prior to the team's arrival.

 

[Khettien]

What's the cutoff point?

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That is exactly what the lawyers and diplomats have been arguing about for the last...two hundred years? Maybe more.

 

[DAT_NOOB]

How are you classing Green Lanterns?

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To my knowledge none of the green lanterns have used their powers to support or join any revolutionary organisations

 

[Mr Zoat]

To my knowledge none of the green lanterns have used their powers to support or join any revolutionary organisations

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Except the obvious one.

 

[BlueMangoAdea]

Except the obvious one.

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Ah. I can't believe it took me so long to recognize that you were talking about Treason Daytm​.

 

[TheMidnightRook]

I picked Ivy because there is an inherent political motive in her actions

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A better example would probably be Plastique. She is... or was, I'm not actually sure what she's been up to in more recent years, a Quebec Separatist, a movement that actually has a fair bit of support, and isn't itself illegal. She's a criminal not because of her politics, but because of the actions (bombings, attempted assassinations, etc) that she takes in the name of them.

 

[DrThoth]

I hope we actually see Aquaman and Aqualad have their conversation with Paragon instead of the time-skip when he was having his mandatory League-conversation with the former about Nabu.
I wonder how they'd react if they saw what things were like for Atlantis and Venturia in the Renegade-timeline- all the separatist political will, but with Clea in perpetual command and the locus of magitechnological advancement instead of Poseidonis.

 

[Darko]

Except the obvious one.

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You mean Killowog with the whole Rocket Red thing?

 

[BlueMangoAdea]

You mean Killowog with the whole Rocket Red thing?

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USA could be considered a revolutionary organization, due to its origins. "Treason Day", remember?

 

[BartlettMagic]

"Recognized, Aquaman, zero six, Aqualad, B zero two."

Kon pats me on the back, then the three of them make a speedy exit.

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it was a nice departure... but i'm glad we're back to normal

 

[rkyeun]

The JL needs an understudy for Bats in the sneaky bastard category.

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I nominate The Question.

 

[Darko]

I nominate The Question.

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I recommend you read 'But Doctor I am Pagliaci' on SB by Acyl.

It's a really great fic that has the Question take on the role of Batman on the League, though with some twists.

In another note there is also 'A Cell of a good time' that also has the Question in it.

If you weren't a fan of the guy before then this fic will change your mind.

 

[Rafin]

How are you classing Green Lanterns?

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Non-interventionary space-police that has in the last decades only assigned natives to this planet.
And yes, I know that that means that they have assigned non-native Earthlings to the whole sector, but I am speaking specifically about Earth politics.

For the same reason that he went to Venturia last time: they're so separated from the Atlantean mainstream that they're not taking part in the arcanotechnological revolution and as such are 'spare'.

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Oh, okay. I didn't know that all of the other Atlantean polities got fully roped into the Poseidonis arcanotech revolution. Still, he could have easily gotten crisis solving archmages among those he already has a connection to and then organized a recruitment source, from Venturia or anywhere else, with actual diplomatic considerations towards everyone involved (which is essentially every UN nation if he invites unilateral defense pacts with extraterrestrial entities that can beat the whole planet in a fight), instead of snappishly dismissing "politics".
And I'm not saying that he should definitely not have done what he did, just that he should not have done it under pressure and on a whim.

No, Batman would be an idiot to give him an ultimatum like that.

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The ultimatum of not just nilly willy involving extraterrestrial forces in internal national disputes without talking to anyone or thinking it through? Because that's what I meant. "Cut this shit out" as in don't just fuck around like that. He's being worse than Grayven here. Grayven, when he does this stuff, does it covertly and with a plan in mind.

The Reach canonically did get away with this, and a whole lot more.

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Ah, okay. I guess I misunderstood. I thought the Reach was more about getting an in through trade, selling brain cybernetics and other tech, getting advisory positions and making people more and more dependent on them until they get invited to "help" by a legitimate government that they have thoroughly infiltrated. If simply choosing a random rebel faction and getting "hired as mercenaries" was enough of a fig leaf, I'd have expected them to work much faster than they apparently do. Maybe I just misremember stuff.

 

[Darko]

Renegade has been generally more involved in politics than paragon, so he has learned some things about how to conduct himself and be more careful with his actions.

He also wants to get recourses from Earth so can fight Darkseid and rifling up the feathers of the various governments would make that difficult.

Paragon on the other hand only has the goal of fighting the Reach and doesn't necessarily need the recources of Earth, unlike renegade who may need some of the schizo tech and magic Earth can provide.