With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

BR549 · Mar 15, 2025

Chojin Patriarch said:
I guess Gotham and Blüdhaven are in the same state, so no kidnapping and transporting across state lines...

On Earth-16, Gotham City - based on the map shown in one episode - is where OTL Bridgeport, Connecticut is. So Blüdhaven presumably has replaced Stratford.

Mr Zoat · Mar 15, 2025

12th December 2023
16:02 GMT -5

"You hate me, don't you?"

Dr. Sartorius leans back, smiling faintly. It's interesting that despite the fact that between his pitch black skeleton and translucent green flesh making his face impossible to see with normal senses, he still has facial expression. I suppose that it's an instinct resulting from decades of having a normal face.

"I don't hate you, Dr. Sartorius. I'm not capable of hate."

"No. You do. I can tell." He shifts position slightly. "Thing is, for the life of me, I can't work out why."

"I admit, I didn't prioritise your care when you first arrived. There are a lot of people here who need counsel and compassion."

"And I don't?"

"That's not-."

"It can't be Thorne. You read my file. You know what he did. That was an eye for an eye."

"Yes." I nod. "It was. He and his coterie murdered your family. You have my sympathy for that. Taking their lives in retaliation was entirely within the bounds of justice. What I think that you may have misunderstood is that 'an eye for an eye' is a limitation. You may not extract more in retribution than was done to you. They killed, you may kill them. Vengeance belongs to the Most High."

"And what's that, then?" He shrugs nonchalantly. "Because I sure felt vengeful when I was doing it."

"The right to inflict more harm than was done. Nothing is worse than Hell, which is where the souls of unshriven evildoers go. Since there is no way for anyone to cause harm equal to eternity in Hell, the Most High alone retains that authority. You inflicted considerably more harm than was done to you."

"Eh, you know: can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs." He sits back. "So is this about his wife? Because she knew."

"If she had counselled him in his treatment of you then you may be right. Otherwise-."

"What, you don't think she noticed that a guy who's official job as 'construction manager' didn't take home a little more than usual?"

"That doesn't make her a party to all of his crimes."

"Does from where I'm sitting. You know, you're disappointing me. I'd have thought that an angel would be a lot more vengeful."

"As I said-."

"Yeah, but you're kind of his instrument on Earth. I guess He sent you here to minister to us sinners. Something like that?"

"No. I am here of my own will."

He snorts in amusement. "You're the only one who is."

"Doctor-."

"Okay, so the wife didn't know. Or… Did she, but I don't get any credit for that because I didn't check?"

"Does it matter to you?"

"It didn't, but now you've got me curious. Did she?"

I take a moment to.. centre myself, which… Is unusual. Nothing in this conversation should have left me this discomported… But after a moment I feel the divine presence, directing my thoughts along the true path.

"She was not aware of the specifics of your case, though she was aware that her husband had killed someone the day he murdered your wife and son."

"Good enough for me." He leans back, hands behind his head. "But that's not why."

"Why..?"

"Why you hate me. Really, that's the only reason I'm here. I mean, Weasel ate those kids, and all you did was comb his fur a little."

"In point of fact, Weasel has not committed any crimes."

"So they were really evil kids?"

"So I very much doubt that he killed them at all."

He chuckles. "So he's just a big ole' junkyard dog."

"I'm not sure what he is, but I don't believe that he is a murderer."

"Okay, so-." He straightens slightly. "Oh. Right. His kids."

"They were entirely innocent. As unaware of their parents' sins as your son was of yours."

"Hey. I didn't do any sinning until after he was murdered."

"You didn't knowingly take money from a criminal enterprise to fund your research?"

"Except that. And I didn't give him the results he wanted."

"How do you think that he made that money?"

"Ah… Construction management?"

I regard him for a moment.

"Hey, there's good money in construction."

I continue regarding him without speaking.

"But probably not that much. Okay, yeah, I knew who I was dealing with. More or less. Now, I think my research woulda justified it eventually, but he got tired of me keeping secrets before that could happen. And taking dirty money definitely isn't enough. And he killed my son, so 'eye for an eye' means I'm okay killing his-."

"That is not what that means. Divine law does not allow you to kill an innocent person because someone else killed someone."

"Huh." He leans forwards, studying me. "That's not it either."

"If you have killed other children, then I will hear your confession."

"No, I mean it's not why you hate me. That's weird. I mean, there's not much worse than killing kids. And yeah, I do feel… A little guilty about it. I wasn't exactly thinking straight when I went to his house. But I don't know. I really can't think of anything worse I've done. So what is it?"

"I assure you-."

"Is this what I look like, from the outside? You relax when I'm telling you that you hate me, but the moment I stop a part of you goes back to… Wherever it is. Look at you right now: your wings are all tense."

I… Relax my wings.

"And your fists-."

I open my hands.

"And you must be getting your money's worth with your masseur given how tense your shoulders look."

I circle my neck and wiggle my shoulders.

"So do you just not know..?"

I sigh. "Is this the only reason why you asked for a meeting?"

"It's been bugging me. It's not like I don't know what my sins are. Not much to do around here but think about them. And thanks to Waller, now I get to add to them. But I wanna know what I did that could piss off an angel, and it turns out that you don't even know." He shrugs, standing up. "So unless you've got something to say, I guess we're done."

He's right. I am tensing-. Oh Lord of Hosts, your ignorant servant beseeches you… Why? Why is it that-?

I feel my eyes glazing with golden light, and Dr. Sartorius backs up a step.

"Oh that's what it looks like. I get it now."

"Did you ever kill a man named Doctor Theodore Knight?"

"Doc-. The A-bomb guy? Ah, no? He died when I was, like, three. I've never even visited Opal City." He stares at me as I dim my fires. "Are you..? Okay?"

Am I?

"I am not sure. But we bear our own crosses."

12th December 2023
16:06 GMT -5

In a room on the far side of the prison complex, two power rings inside a Seal of Solomon shimmer with golden light, before being extinguished.

Rebu · Mar 15, 2025

Mr Zoat said:
"No. I am here of my own will."

He snorts in amusement. "You're the only one who is."

"In the business, we call this 'Foreshadowing'."

Darko · Mar 15, 2025

Mr Zoat said:
making his face is impossible

"his face impossible"

Mr Zoat said:
he still has facial expression

Though limited.

Since you can't see his new skin he basically always looks like he's smiling.

He's really not.

Mr Zoat said:
"No. You do. I can tell." He shifts position slightly. "Thing is, for the life of me, I can't work out why

Well there were the two kids you murdered.

Plus your life of crime.

Mr Zoat said:
people here you need counsel and

"here who need"

Mr Zoat said:
. You may not extract more in retribution than was done to you

That still would have left one dead kid.

Mr Zoat said:
No. I am here of my own will."

He snorts in amusement. "You're the only one who is

Sad but true.

Mr Zoat said:
I take a moment to.. centre myself, which… Is unusual. Nothing is this conversation should have left me this discomported… But after a moment I feel the divine presence, directing my thoughts along the true path

This is concerning.

"Nothing in this"

Mr Zoat said:
"In point of fact, Weasel has not committed any crimes."

"So they were really evil kids

Well the Blue Lantern version has a daycare for supervillain kids, so that possibility exists.

Mr Zoat said:
Hey. I didn't do any sinning until after he was murdered

You did work for a mob boss.

Plus you killed that guard before you killed Thorne.

Mr Zoat said:
"How do you think that he made that money?"

"Ah… Construction management?"

I regard him for a moment

It's possible that he still makes money from construction.

Granted, it's probably not enough to fund cutting-edge radiation research.

Mr Zoat said:
"Hey, there's good money in construction

In a superhero universe where buildings get constantly demolished, there honestly might be.

I'm reminded of an episode of Mystery Incorporated where the gang considers a guy that was either in construction or at least in charge of cleaning up the rubble to be the monster of the week.

Mr Zoat said:
I'm tell you that you hate

"telling"

Mr Zoat said:
Looks at you right

"Look"

Mr Zoat said:
wanna to know what I

"wanna know"

Mr Zoat said:
In a room on the far side of the prison complex, two power rings inside a Seal of Solomon shimmer with golden light, before being extinguished

I honestly don't know what happened.

And two rings.

One is probably his orange one and the other is most likely Alan Scott's ring.

If I remember correctly, he agreed to work for Waller in exchange for Alan's Lantern.

Ngamer11 · Mar 15, 2025

Mr Zoat said:
In a room on the far side of the prison complex, two power rings inside a Seal of Solomon shimmer with golden light, before being extinguished

Either this was Constantine's way of getting back at Angel Paul for stealing Gabriel's wing, or Waller wanted to keep his services past their agreement.

Lord Ernest · Mar 15, 2025

Wait, his rings are in the prison? Could it be that Waller actually knows some of what's happening to Angel SI? And it's more convenient to her to have him be like this?

After all, misguided as an angel, he's apparently bound to her or feels compelled to be bound to her. With his rings and memories who knows if he would be here, probably not. What a strange situation.

Darko · Mar 15, 2025

Ngamer11 said:
Either this was Constantine's way of getting back at Angel Paul for stealing Gabriel's wing

He didn't steal them.

He bought them.

Plus, John probably thought it would be a good idea to have an angel that owed him big in case he gets cancer again.

Ngamer11 said:
or Waller wanted to keep his services past their agreement.

This is very likely.

Mr Zoat · Mar 15, 2025

Darko said:
"his face impossible"
"here who need"
"Nothing in this"
"telling"
"Look"
"wanna know"

Thank you, corrected.

Bigking321 · Mar 15, 2025

Ngamer11 said:
or Waller wanted to keep his services past their agreement.

Darko said:
This is very likely.

Frigging Waller.

Sealed his rings and I guess memories so he's running on autopilot after being subsumed by the wings.

Probably something like these people need help, you are here and can help them, and I get slightly less crazy people to deal with plus literal advice from on high.

Nothing can go wrong!

Vaermina · Mar 15, 2025

Mr Zoat said:
12th December 2023
16:06 GMT -5

In a room on the far side of the prison complex, two power rings inside a Seal of Solomon shimmer with golden light, before being extinguished.

Given how badly Orange rings fucked up all his other selves this is probably for the best.

Chojin Patriarch · Mar 15, 2025

Mr Zoat said:
12th December 2023
16:02 GMT -5

"You hate me, don't you?"

Dr. Sartorius leans back, smiling faintly. It's interesting that despite the fact that between his pitch black skeleton and translucent green flesh making his face is impossible to see with normal senses, he still has facial expression. I suppose that it's an instinct resulting from decades of having a normal face.

That's something you never think about with things like 'transparent flesh'. Just because you can't see the meat, doesn't mean it's not still there. ...I shudder to imagine what seeing him eat would look like, though. Although he probably doesn't subsist on normal matter now...

"I don't hate you, Dr. Sartorius. I'm not capable of hate."

"No. You do. I can tell." He shifts position slightly. "Thing is, for the life of me, I can't work out why."

Probably something spiritual. Like grit somewhere sensitive.

"I admit, I didn't prioritise your care when you first arrived. There are a lot of people here you need counsel and compassion."

"And I don't?"

He's only got so many hours in the day.

"That's not-."

"It can't be Thorne. You read my file. You know what he did. That was an eye for an eye."

That would be this universe's version of Rupert Thorne, infamous Gotham criminal boss. One that came into conflict with Batman back in the day, pre-Crisis.

"Yes." I nod. "It was. He and his coterie murdered your family. You have my sympathy for that. Taking their lives in retaliation was entirely within the bounds of justice. What I think that you may have misunderstood is that 'an eye for an eye' is a limitation. You may not extract more in retribution than was done to you. They killed, you may kill them. Vengeance belongs to the Most High."

In other words, he went too far? To be fair, a man who'd just lost his family and his humanity wouldn't be in the best mental shape to hold back.

"And what's that, then?" He shrugs nonchalantly. "Because I sure felt vengeful when I was doing it."

"The right to inflict more harm than was done. Nothing is worse than Hell, which is where the souls of unshriven evildoers go. Since there is no way for anyone to cause harm equal to eternity in Hell, the Most High alone retains that authority. You inflicted considerably more harm than was done to you."

Definitely went too far.

"Eh, you know: can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs." He sits back. "So is this about his wife? Because she knew."

"If she had counselled him in his treatment of you then you may be right. Otherwise-."

I mean, unless he absolutely kept her insulated from his less legal businesses...

"What, you don't think she noticed that a guy who's official job as 'construction manager' didn't take home a little more than usual?"

"That doesn't make her a party to all of his crimes."

And you'd be amazed how people can delude themselves when it's easier to go with it.

"Does from where I'm sitting. You know, you're disappointing me. I'd have thought that an angel would be a lot more vengeful."

"As I said-."

Heck, by a very loose reading of the Old and New Testaments, becoming a father/human mellowed the Big Guy out a lot... Of course that would filter down to some of his messengers.

"Yeah, but you're kind of his instrument on Earth. I guess He sent you here to minister to us sinners. Something like that?"

"No. I am here of my own will."

Bullshit meter is buzzing. There's a story behind all this for sure.

He snorts in amusement. "You're the only one who is."

"Doctor-."

I mean, the guards, for one. General Flag for another? Or do non-inmates not count, in his mind?

"Okay, so the wife didn't know. Or… Did she, but I don't get any credit for that because I didn't check?"

"Does it matter to you?"

That's a good point, actually. Would knowledge of a person's crimes count for or against the punishment he dealt?

"It didn't, but now you've got me curious. Did she?"

I take a moment to.. centre myself, which… Is unusual. Nothing is this conversation should have left me this discomported… But after a moment I feel the divine presence, directing my thoughts along the true path.

Seems something in him isn't sitting correctly, it seems. More noteworthy points for this being unusual.

"She was not aware of the specifics of your case, though she was aware that her husband had killed someone the day he murdered your wife and son."

"Good enough for me." He leans back, hands behind his head. "But that's not why."

So not completely faultless. But I'm guessing it didn't warrant death, at least in Lan's estimation.

"Why..?"

"Why you hate me. Really, that's the only reason I'm here. I mean, Weasel ate those kids, and all you did was comb his fur a little."

Well, he is sort of ugly-cute. And I doubt he'd bite if he's well-fed.

"In point of fact, Weasel has not committed any crimes."

"So they were really evil kids?"

"So I very much doubt that he killed them at all."

Another mystery to investigate, not that this alt!Paul seems to bother.

He chuckles. "So he's just a big ole' junkyard dog."

"I'm not sure what he is, but I don't believe that he is a murderer."

Presumably there would be a spiritual stain on him if he was. But that doesn't necessarily mean he didn't kill them. 'Murder' is not equal to 'Kill' in some moral codes.

"Okay, so-." He straightens slightly. "Oh. Right. His kids."

"They were entirely innocent. As unaware of their parents' sins as your son was of yours."

And 'Sins of the Father' would not count in this case. Or at all, depending on Lan's programming.

"Hey. I didn't do any sinning until after he was murdered."

"You didn't knowingly take money from a criminal enterprise to fund your research?"

"Except that. And I didn't give him the results he wanted."

So his hands aren't completely clean. Besides the Thornes, certainly.

"How do you think that he made that money?"

"Ah… Construction management?"

Very clever management, no doubt.

I regard him for a moment.

"Hey, there's good money in construction."

Especially in places like Gotham, huh? Where the building codes are taken as more as suggestions.

I continue regarding him without speaking.

"But probably not that much. Okay, yeah, I knew who I was dealing with. More or less. Now, I think my research woulda justified it eventually, but he got tired of me keeping secrets before that could happen. And taking dirty money definitely isn't enough. And he killed my son, so 'eye for an eye' means I'm okay killing his-."

Don't go arguing semantic with an angel, Doc.

"That is not what that means. Divine law does not allow you to kill an innocent person because someone else killed someone."

"Huh." He leans forwards, studying me. "That's not it either."

Oh? Interesting...

"If you have killed other children, then I will hear your confession."

"No, I mean it's not why you hate me. That's weird. I mean, there's not much worse than killing kids. And yeah, I do feel… A little guilty about it. I wasn't exactly thinking straight when I went to his house. But I don't know. I really can't think of anything worse I've done. So what is it?"

Sadly, I doubt the stains on his soul care much about being lost in rage or madness. Apparently the Silver City doesn't consider that an excuse, either.

"I assure you-."

"Is this what I look like, from the outside? You relax when I'm tell you that you hate me, but the moment I stop a part of you goes back to… Wherever it is. Looks at you right now: your wings are all tense."

Peculiar. So it really is like a bit of grit somewhere sensitive. Something he isn't even aware of consciously?

I… Relax my wings.

"And your fists-."

I open my hands.

Heh, the whole time, he's been wound up like he's about to go full attack-mode swan on the doc?

"And you must be getting your money's worth with your masseur given how tense your shoulders look."

I circle my neck and wiggle my shoulders.

I mean, given the complexity of the muscle structures there... What with the wings and all... That would be a tricky session.

"So do you just not know..?"

I sigh. "Is this the only reason why you asked for a meeting?"

I mean, if you're prospective teammates, best to make sure any conflicts are worked out before they matter in the field.

"It's been bugging me. It's not like I don't know what my sins are. Not much to do around here but think about them. And thanks to Waller, now I get to add to them. But I wanna to know what I did that could piss off an angel, and it turns out that you don't even know." He shrugs, standing up. "So unless you've got something to say, I guess we're done."

Yeah, i doubt anyone deployed on a Task Force mission is coming away with less red in their ledger...

He's right. I am tensing-. Oh Lord of Hosts, your ignorant servant beseeches you… Why? Why is it that-?

I feel my eyes glazing with golden light, and Dr. Sartorius backs up a step.

Oooh, metaknowledge getting stuck in his angelic senses? Now that's a big piece of grit.

"Oh that's what it looks like. I get it now."

"Did you ever kill a man named Doctor Theodore Knight?"

Different Doctor Phosporous, sadly. Or rather, a different universe. still, knowing of alternate universes must make for some interesting flashes of awareness.

"Doc-. The A-bomb guy? Ah, no? He died when I was, like, three. I've never even visited Opal City." He stares at me as I dim my fires. "Are you..? Okay?"

Am I?

"I am not sure. But we bear our own crosses."

An apt metaphor, given that he seems to have built this one himself.

12th December 2023
16:06 GMT -5

In a room on the far side of the prison complex, two power rings inside a Seal of Solomon shimmer with golden light, before being extinguished.

Dun-dun-DUUUUN.

Well, that was a fascinating stinger to the chapter. More than likely this alt!Paul's original Ring and someone else's (Likely Alan's.) Which may explain the colour of the timestamps, perhaps. The Silver City's energies washing away most vestiges of humanity from the alt!Paul because of his hollow status, and without Rings to maintain some spiritual resilience, it stuck...

Darko · Mar 15, 2025

Bigking321 said:
Frigging Waller.

Sealed his rings and I guess memories so he's running on autopilot after being subsumed by the wings.

Probably something like these people need help, you are here and can help them, and I get slightly less crazy people to deal with plus literal advice from on high.

Nothing can go wrong!

I don't think she's behind it.

It was mentioned that this takes place after the Flash altered time to prevent Darkseid from fucking over everything and in the process the history of this version was also altered and now he's in a universe where he's always been an angel instead of a guy that had angel wings attached to him.

Vaermina said:
Given how badly Orange rings fucked up all his other selves this is probably for the best.

They didn't all get fucked up by their rings.

And this one is also fucked up in his own way.

Darko · Mar 15, 2025

Chojin Patriarch said:
That's something you never think about with things like 'transparent flesh'. Just because you can't see the meat, doesn't mean it's not still there. ...I shudder to imagine what seeing him eat would look like, though. Although he probably doesn't subsist on normal matter now...

He did eat a steak when they met the princess.

He used his powers to heat it up.

Chojin Patriarch said:
In other words, he went too far? To be fair, a man who'd just lost his family and his humanity wouldn't be in the best mental shape to hold back.

Plus being put in a machine that pumped him full of radiation didn't help.

Chojin Patriarch said:
And you'd be amazed how people can delude themselves when it's easier to go with it.

Plus even if she did know that he was involved in criminal activity she may have hoped that it wasn't on the level if gutting someone's wife and child and then smearing the guy's hands in the blood to incriminate him.

Chojin Patriarch said:
I mean, the guards, for one. General Flag for another? Or do non-inmates not count, in his mind

When it comes to the shady shit that Waller does, I get the feeling that anyone that sees even a bit of it knows that they'll either have to go along with her or disappear.

Chojin Patriarch said:
So his hands aren't completely clean. Besides the Thornes, certainly.

He did try to make something that can more effectively fight cancer.

haralo99 · Mar 15, 2025

Mr Zoat said:
In a room on the far side of the prison complex, two power rings inside a Seal of Solomon shimmer with golden light, before being extinguished.

I just realized it said two, so there's a chance that one's not orange.

Wivk · Mar 15, 2025

I have no idea why he is mad at the guy or which rings are where. Helpful thread lurkers edumacate me please?

Vaermina · Mar 15, 2025

Darko said:
They didn't all get fucked up by their rings.

And this one is also fucked up in his own way.

The only one who didn't is the one who ran his ring out of power.

Mr Zoat · Mar 15, 2025

Wivk said:
I have no idea why he is mad at the guy or which rings are where. Helpful thread lurkers edumacate me please?

In the comics, Dr. Phosphorus caused the death of Dr. Theodore Knight, aka Starman I. The SI has a considerable degree of respect for him. Lan doesn't consciously remember that.

This Dr. Phosphorus didn't kill him, and doesn't know what Lan is angry about. Lan doesn't know what Lan is angry about.

Before Flash erased the setting from existence through time travel, this version of the SI was part of Suicide Squad. He had the orange power ring he arrived with and a green one that used to belong to that setting's Alan Scott. Somehow, he arrived in the modern DCU. It appears that someone is using the rings and a magic spell used for controlling demons to mess with his head.

Darko · Mar 15, 2025

Mr Zoat said:
Somehow, he arrived in the modern DCU. It appears that someone is using the rings and a magic spell used for controlling demons to mess with his head.

I thought that with Flash changing things, this version was also changed into basically being someone that was always an angel instead of a guy that had angel wings attached to them.

Mr Zoat · Mar 15, 2025

Darko said:
I thought that with Flash changing things, this version was also changed into basically being someone that was always an angel instead of a guy that had angel wings attached to them.

Yes, but none of the characters know that.

Duke Long · Mar 15, 2025

Mr Zoat said:
"Everyone knows that he made the spells that remade normal humans as Atlanteans. But even after all this time we don't know how or why the Sinking happened."

She nods. "So he didn't reverse it for the good of Atlantis. He reversed it because it was a personal insult. Because he couldn't stop it."

Maybe this has something to do with why Ahri'ahn has so much antipathy for spiritual beings? Elementals sank Atlantis?

Mr Zoat said:
She frowns. "It's been thousand of years. He can't be mad at them for not caring about something their ancestors went through."

"Or he could be really mad about it."

'thousands'

Mr Zoat said:
"Apparently it means something like… 'Joy'."

My first thought is the Prince of the World, but Zatanna would've said something if it was a smiley face.

Mr Zoat said:
"You'd like Alstair and O. The Dominion use some plant-based technology, but… Yes. The path that the human species has taken is… Fairly typical. Magic-based civilisation are usually less antagonistic, but there aren't all that many of those. And then you've got the problem of civilisations which don't have the fuel to fully industrialise…"

'civilisations are'

Mr Zoat said:
When they killed Queen Gamemnae they wanted to make sure that it stuck. So they opened a cavern in Tezumak's city and sacrificed her to the Aztec gods. I really hope that it's still there, but I know perfectly well that the Aztec afterlife was a mess during the Anti-Life period and that just about anything could have happened. Of course that doesn't explain why we're dealing with Ahri'ahn rather than Gamemnae, unless he's a clay zombie or she's using an illusion or… I don't know. We're not reenacting the Obsidian Age storyline, not entirely, but if King Orin has been turned into some sort of water elemental…

Clever method of imprisoning someone. And it worked for millennia, presumably.

Mr Zoat said:
The point is that she hates being contained, having people tell her what to do and not being in control, and while I'm going the first two the third is firmly her husband's fault. I'm not sure why he brought her to the future with him… Frankly, it seems like it would have been better for him to handle that duty himself and suggest that she spend the rest of her life in Jarhanpur. But here she is, completelyunprepared for the 21st century. And the thing is, if this had happened 200 years ago she could probably handle 1800s Kahndaq just fine.

'I'm doing'

Mr Zoat said:
"It's an island in the Ag-. Off the coast of G-. Ah. An island in the land of the Hellenes? I'm a citizen, and I'm good terms with most of their rulers."

She looks me over suspiciously. "You are.. like them? Like my husband?"

'on good terms'

Mr Zoat said:
"No-. Probably not, but it's never really explained why there's a copy of her in every Pokémon Centre."

…

"Has Dad been talking to you?"

Huh? "Ah. Not recently? Why?"

"Oh. N-. Never mind."

What?

Mr Zoat said:
And then there are home owner's associations, which are sort of like local government bodies, except voluntary, except when they're not? I don't really get it, and the primitive nineties internet already has enough horror stories that I'm trying to avoid one with the shortlist I've creating with Anne-Marie.

'created'?

Mr Zoat said:
And is a single cell a person? Do you hold a funeral when you lose a skin cell? Probably not, though I seem to remember that Sikhs bury their hair. That's probably not the same thing. So it a foetal stem cell different? There's no processing-. Well, alright, the cell nucleus is doing some processing, but it's not person-processing. And at what point does a bundle of cells become a person? I don't know, but it's at some point…

'So is a'

Mr Zoat said:
"The law… It was supposed to allow for the destruction of non or barely viable foetuses when the abnormality was detected early in the pregnancy, or when the mother's life is at risk. And… I remember a legal case where it turned out that having cleft lip and palate was considered sufficient cause despite the fact that it's easily correctable by chirurgy theses days, because it's also associated with other conditions… And I don't know what the co-morbidities are for the x-gene are and the research doesn't exist."

'these days,'

Mr Zoat said:
"Delirium."

"D-?" An expression of growing horror appears on his face. "What?"

Woohoo! Ahri'ahn/Gamemnae wasn't just being a supervillain! Hopefully. But now I have to see whether they are going to survive this. I suppose if it is Gamemnae that goes a way towards explaining the difference from the Renegade timeline, where Ahri'ahn seemed like more of a standard supervillain from what I recall.
Great chapter leading up to this by the by.

Mr Zoat said:
His eyes lock on me through the illusion. "Who? What happened?"

"He was trying to trap Death. He got Dream instead. A lot of people started dying in their sleep, any… Spell that required the Dream to be in good order failed disastrously, and when he finally got out everyone responsible who was still alive was tortured in their sleep for years before he forgot about them and allowed them to die."

"But he did it."

They really enjoy learning about magic, huh? This doesn't seem like the time, but I suppose they might've been distracting themself from a hopeless situation.

Mr Zoat said:
"Oh, does that work? I had some thoughts on using the Dream to travel the stars-."

"Yes." His right hand goes to his forehead. "Yes, it works. You could fly them to the edge of the universe and it wouldn't be enough."

"How about the Source Wall?"

"Not enough."

Neat! So that means some forms of magic should work all over?

Mr Zoat said:
"Residual Anti-Life, the fact that you were actively trying to alter their minds anyway… Have you heard of someone called Boss Smiley?"

"No."

I make a simple construct depiction of his face-.

Which winks at him, and generates itself a thumb so that it can give him a thumbs up sigh. "I'm rooting for yeh, champ!"

I punch it, reducing it to orange mist.

"He's… Some sort of spirit of political corruption and social inertia. He hates me, and he's everywhere. He doesn't have that much direct power but-."

"His face. Is that his sigil?"

'sign'
Well, my reasoning was off but I was right about him being involved somehow. Nice to see him.

Mr Zoat said:
"Magic isn't just about raw power and knowledge. You have to develop an understanding for the rule-systems that define the greatest currents of power. Awareness of your environment is essential, because every tiny clue emerges from those rule in places of power like this. It's been a long time since I've been this powerless, but needs must."

'those rules'

Mr Zoat said:
A large room, a table, and… Seven portrait frames. Er… Okay, Dream, Death, Desire, those I recognise. The robe with a face is… Destiny. There's a sheet over one. Destruction? One shows an emaciated women sitting on a turntable, rocking back and forth with her arms wrapped around her legs as she spins slowly around, and Ahri'ahn is heading towards it.

The last one is empty. Uh.

'woman'

Mr Zoat said:
The… Person I'm looking at is short and so fat as to be virtually spherical. He or she is also naked, and the adipose flaps make it hard to tell which is appropriate. Their skin is chalk white and their hair is pitch black, done up in a topknot like a sumo wrestler but more messily Their eyes are black, with tiny little points of white where an unusually small pupil might go.

'messily.'

Mr Zoat said:
Ah. It turns out that Despair is quite strong. No matter. I-.

I.. don't seem to be able to cut off my own arm. Or remove friction. Or transition. Or extend a filament. I'm not going to try stepping out while Despair is holding on to me because that sounds like a higher order terrible idea. Instead, I reach into my armour's sheath with my free hand and pull out an x-ionised dagger.

Cool! I was surprised by how nice Despair was about this whole thing; I thought there was no way he'd be getting out of there without something bad happening to him.

Mr Zoat said:
"Stop playing-" Gamemnae manages to claw the clay away from her mouth. "-it's game! Work out what the rulesmgph-!"

'-its'

Mr Zoat said:
"That way, if you die, you'll go to Erebus rather than Mictlān! Hades only does finite punishments! You can sidestep the whole heart thing! I mean, you'll be punished, but he might take time served into consideration!"

Clever. But I thought Mictlan was toast after the Anti-Life? Is he just being reassuring?

Mr Zoat said:
Queen Gamemnae looks her dry-clay-covered form over, then reaches up to her chest to check that her heart is back again. Then she awkwardly and unsteadily stands, staring wide-eyed at Despair, who let's go of my arm.

'lets go'
I'm not quite sure why being told about Boss Smiley made her decide to head to Delirium's portrait. Was he somehow increasing the energy pull and she thought she could stop him from doing that with access to the portrait?

Mr Zoat said:
I step through and into near-luna space, the black mass just in front of me flowing away from me and reforming a short distance away, newly reconstructed drive system present and warming up in case I'm a threat the pilot doesn't think he can deal with.

'near-lunar'?

Mr Zoat said:
"There are clear advantages, and I can personally attest to them. But at the same time is does feel.. like a betrayal. What would.. you do, if it was you?"

I raise my left eyebrow, then let if fall with a shrug.

'it does'
'let it'

Mr Zoat said:
"Yes." I press a button and bring up a series of crime reports on the screen. "I've been studying the statistical links between crimes and sentencing. Now, particular groups of people getting longer sentences for the same offence doesn't prove prejudice, as a fairly wide range of injuries can be covered by the same law. But it was a place to start looking. And in these cases we have three x-gene-possessing assault victims who were hospitalised with-" I bring up the police photos. "-injuries including stab wounds, severe bruising and broken bones, and whose attackers received surprisingly light sentences. Reading the judge's sentencing, there nothing that stands out as openly biased, but she did receive a donation from Friends of Humanity during her last election campaign. Now, if we could demonstrate that her ruling was due to underlying anti-mutant prejudice that might get her removed from her position, but there isn't anything else I can do remotely and I'm.. not a mind reader."

'there's nothing that'

Mr Zoat said:
Henry raises his eyebrows. "Perhaps it would do less to encourage criminality if you limited yourself to card tricks? I'm certain that would find those just as entertaining, and it would be something which they could show their parents afterwards."

'that they would'?

Mr Zoat said:
"No." I shake my head. "Other than what happened to Gamemnae there doesn't appear to have been any ill effects. On the other hand, Despair is fairly patient, so they might just be setting me up for something. Or… Someone I meet, or something like that."

'don't appear'?

Mr Zoat said:
"I consider you invaluable to my logistics work."

"Yeah, but I actually like being a superhero." He sighs. "I feels kinda… Stupid to complain about crime being down so much after… Y'know."

'It feels'

Edit: added another correction that I didn't notice previously even despite quoting the segment it appeared in.

Wivk · Mar 15, 2025

I figured it was a thing his character did in another continuity that was the issue but I wasn't sure. I figured it was possible the bad guy had some super science he was squandering as well and that usually ticks off the main guy too.

Doccer · Mar 16, 2025

Darko said:
I thought that with Flash changing things, this version was also changed into basically being someone that was always an angel instead of a guy that had angel wings attached to them.

Mr Zoat said:
Yes, but none of the characters know that.

So it's the Five Minute Theory. Someone retroactively did this to him to explain when he eventually becomes/rediscovers he's a Lantern Angel?

Mr Zoat · Mar 16, 2025

1st June 2013
18:59 GMT -6

I hold the drug cache in a construct cube, frowning as it floats before us. "Are you sure this is alright?"

Detective O'Toole shrugs. "I ain't smokin' it."

"I mean, don't you need it for evidence?"

"Do you?"

I frown at him. "The way you say that makes it sound like I should. Should I?"

"Look, it's pretty obvious that President Knight isn't capable of running a lemonade stand, much less a country. And I guess that didn't matter before the… What'd you call it, 'Anti-Life'?" I nod. "Before what happened happened. Governor's no better. Mayor's a decent woman -unlike her husband- but things have fallen apart too much. We can't fix…" He waves his right arm at the rest of Hub City. "This. Only reason why we're trying to keep it going rather than just relocating everyone who's left is most of the criminals 're dead too. That and the Question."

"Well, I'm… Sorry to hear that, but there's only so much we can do."

"How about the twenty fifth amendment?"

"And replace him with who? It's not just a matter of the person at the top being competent and then everything works; the whole system's… Broken."

"Didn't you guys make Captain Atom the President for a month?"

"Technically, sort of. I don't know if it actually counted, and he wasn't really in control of much."

"Could he do better?"

…

I feel like I'm being a little unfair to Knight here, but…

"Probably?"

"So tell the current V.P. that he's quitting, get Congress to confirm Captain Atom and then get Knight to quit."

"That's a.. bit dodgy. And even if we did-."

"I thought you were the guy who said that the Justice League was taking over the world."

"That's not what I said."

He shrugs. "Sue me. What did you say?"

"I said-. Ah… I'm afraid that I've been banned from talking about it."

He shrugs, looking around the abandoned multi-story car park. "You see anyone listening?"

"Batman would know. He always knows. But-. Look, civilisation isn't something that can be held together by a few dozen people. And even.. seriously suggesting that we try it is… Suggesting that we admit defeat. Rebuilding civilisation has to be a grass roots thing, where people rebuild things that they actually value, and… I guess… Let the things that they don't value just collapse."

"Like… America?"

"If the people of America really don't value any of the things that the country is supposed to stand for… Yes, I'm afraid so."

"You're from England. What are you talking about?"

"Yes, I am, and I once got stuck in America's soul and got into a fight with a manifestation of the military-industrial complex."

"Did you win?"

"Yes."

"Okay. How?"

"Ah… I gave the manifested idea of President Kennedy superpowers and detoxed Uncle Sam. I also beat up some of the spineless worms infesting the idea of the city of Washington."

"Shoulda beat up some more." His eyes flick up to my construct. "There ain't no point keeping it because we don't have the people to do an investigation. Mosta the criminals either died or got outta town, so whoever dumped it probably ain't around no more, and if they are we don't have the officers, or judges, or a record of potential jurors, or a working prison."

"So… What are you doing with criminals?"

"Depends. A fine, a beating, or we stick them in a labor gang for a while. Mayor declared a state of emergency, which makes it… About as legal as Captain Atom's presidency, I guess." He considers me as I disintegrate the drug cache. "Unless that's a problem?"

"No, things don't get much more 'emergency' than the total breakdown of human civilisation. I just… I don't want this to become 'normal', you know? This is something that we should be working to get away from. What are this city's primary industries?"

"It used to be heavy manufacturing. Cars and farming equipment mostly. Oh, and hard drugs."

"Medicinal drugs or just narcotics?"

"Ah… A little of both. You need to know your chemistry to make decent meth."

"Are the narcotics here actually good quality?"

"We don't really keep records on that, but my guess is that the quality dropped as the economy disappeared."

Huh. That seems… Reasonable. There is actually…

Food variety isn't what it was, but all of the figures that the Justice League has say that we aren't looking at a starvation situation this year. But… Next year? Industrialised nations move people away from farming and into manufacturing, compensating for the lack of manpower with improved machinery. The problem there is that it means that there are fewer people in your civilisation who know how to farm. And since farming is a demanding and low-paid job, people who aren't going to inherit the family farm don't look to acquire a new farm, they get a job doing something else.

So we can't just take a bunch of homeless people, drop them off on a now-empty farm and say 'get on with it'. And keeping the equipment running on the farms that are still operating but will start to suffer maintenance issues as the factories and companies that supplied them collapse and cease functioning is going to become an issue.

And LexCorp's farming robots aren't a remotely realistic replacement.

"Do the people who used to work in those factories still live here?"

He shrugs. "Some of them probably do."

Okay. If I check with Dox that he doesn't need Queen Artemis's magicians right now, and… No further high-end magic threats arise, I can employ them to make more Dolmen Gates for Cadburys Logistics. Put a terminus here…

"Okay, I've got an idea. Let's finish sweeping this block, and then I'll need to go and talk to the mayor."

Ngamer11 · Mar 16, 2025

I really hope this is when the general public starts seeing OL less as the Cake guy and more as a kingmaker.

Mr Zoat · Mar 16, 2025

Duke Long said:
'thousands'
'civilisations are'
'I'm doing'
'on good terms'
'created'?
'So is a'
'these days,'
'sign'
'those rules'
'woman'
'messily.'
'-its'
'lets go'
'near-lunar'?
'it does'
'let it'
'there's nothing that'
'that they would'?
'don't appear'?
'It feels'

Thank you, corrected.

Chojin Patriarch · Mar 16, 2025

Mr Zoat said:
1st June 2013
18:59 GMT -6

I hold the drug cache in a construct cube, frowning as it floats before us. "Are you sure this is alright?"

Detective O'Toole shrugs. "I ain't smokin' it."

Reminds me of a GTA San Andreas mission, where you frame a DA with a huge block of weed in his car. One of the radio DJs comments on it afterwards with a line about "Imagine keeping that much for your personal stash."

Probably not relevant, but it tickled my fancy.

"I mean, don't you need it for evidence?"

"Do you?"

I frown at him. "The way you say that makes it sound like I should. Should I?"

Given the state of the local city, it may well disappear out of the police evidence locker...

"Look, it's pretty obvious that President Knight isn't capable of running a lemonade stand, much less a country. And I guess that didn't matter before the… What'd you call it, 'Anti-Life'?" I nod. "Before what happened happened. Governor's no better. Mayor's a decent woman -unlike her husband- but things have fallen apart too much. We can't fix…" He waves his right arm at the rest of Hub City. "This. Only reason why we're trying to keep it going rather than just relocating everyone who's left is most of the criminals 're dead too. That and the Question."

People toughing it out because they don't have any better plan. A common thing after the Anti-Life, I bet.

"Well, I'm… Sorry to hear that, but there's only so much we can do."

"How about the twenty fifth amendment?"

That would be... Oust the sitting President on medical grounds? That'd need doing via the government processes.

"And replace him with who? It's not just a matter of the person at the top being competent and then everything works; the whole system's… Broken."

"Didn't you guys make Captain Atom the President for a month?"

Via even more tenuous emergency powers, if I remember rightly. And he didn't seem all that comfortable with the idea.

"Technically, sort of. I don't know if it actually counted, and he wasn't really in control of much."

"Could he do better?"

Well, if nothing else, he'd be able to save money on Secret Service details.

…

I feel like I'm being a little unfair to Knight here, but…

Especially since, if I remember right, you backed him for the seat?

"Probably?"

"So tell the current V.P. that he's quitting, get Congress to confirm Captain Atom and then get Knight to quit."

Oh yes, so easy when you say it like that...

"That's a.. bit dodgy. And even if we did-."

"I thought you were the guy who said that the Justice League was taking over the world."

It was more like an emergency guardianship. And obviously not expected to remain in place once old power structures recovered...

"That's not what I said."

He shrugs. "Sue me. What did you say?"

Yes, do refresh our memories. Not everyone has perfect recall for the story details, after all.

"I said-. Ah… I'm afraid that I've been banned from talking about it."

He shrugs, looking around the abandoned multi-story car park. "You see anyone listening?"

Let's not invoke the wrath of Batman like that? Especially since he's still rocking a Power Ring.

"Batman would know. He always knows. But-. Look, civilisation isn't something that can be held together by a few dozen people. And even.. seriously suggesting that we try it is… Suggesting that we admit defeat. Rebuilding civilisation has to be a grass roots thing, where people rebuild things that they actually value, and… I guess… Let the things that they don't value just collapse."

Well, that's the hopeful view of it. Sadly, sometimes those unvalued things cling to existence through cultural inertia or personal contrariness.

"Like… America?"

"If the people of America really don't value any of the things that the country is supposed to stand for… Yes, I'm afraid so."

Good luck even getting a consensus on that, since asking three different people will get six different answers...

"You're from England. What are you talking about?"

"Yes, I am, and I once got stuck in America's soul and got into a fight with a manifestation of the military-industrial complex."

...That was a weird episode, yes.

"Did you win?"

"Yes."

Wouldn't be here otherwise, since that sort of thing usually doesn't end well for the loser.

"Okay. How?"

"Ah… I gave the manifested idea of President Kennedy superpowers and detoxed Uncle Sam. I also beat up some of the spineless worms infesting the idea of the city of Washington."

...A very weird episode.

"Shoulda beat up some more." His eyes flick up to my construct. "There ain't no point keeping it because we don't have the people to do an investigation. Mosta the criminals either died or got outta town, so whoever dumped it probably ain't around no more, and if they are we don't have the officers, or judges, or a record of potential jurors, or a working prison."

And again, a high chance of someone walking off from the evidence impound with it... This is Hub City, after all.

"So… What are you doing with criminals?"

"Depends. A fine, a beating, or we stick them in a labor gang for a while. Mayor declared a state of emergency, which makes it… About as legal as Captain Atom's presidency, I guess." He considers me as I disintegrate the drug cache. "Unless that's a problem?"

Hey, call it 'community service' and it's all nice and above board. Sort of. Vaguely.

"No, things don't get much more 'emergency' than the total breakdown of human civilisation. I just… I don't want this to become 'normal', you know? This is something that we should be working to get away from. What are this city's primary industries?"

"It used to be heavy manufacturing. Cars and farming equipment mostly. Oh, and hard drugs."

Getting ideas about refilling the factories, OL?

"Medicinal drugs or just narcotics?"

"Ah… A little of both. You need to know your chemistry to make decent meth."

Yeah, 'Breaking Bad' is probably more plausible than you'd think...

"Are the narcotics here actually good quality?"

"We don't really keep records on that, but my guess is that the quality dropped as the economy disappeared."

Huh. That seems… Reasonable. There is actually…

I mean, it's not like they can get testimonials from the users.

Food variety isn't what it was, but all of the figures that the Justice League has say that we aren't looking at a starvation situation this year. But… Next year? Industrialised nations move people away from farming and into manufacturing, compensating for the lack of manpower with improved machinery. The problem there is that it means that there are fewer people in your civilisation who know how to farm. And since farming is a demanding and low-paid job, people who aren't going to inherit the family farm don't look to acquire a new farm, they get a job doing something else.

Sadly, it's becoming a lost art. And farming doesn't really have much in the way of prestige these days.

So we can't just take a bunch of homeless people, drop them off on a now-empty farm and say 'get on with it'. And keeping the equipment running on the farms that are still operating but will start to suffer maintenance issues as the factories and companies that supplied them collapse and cease functioning is going to become an issue.

Troublesome. Though I expect it'll break up some untenable practices in that respect.

And LexCorp's farming robots aren't a remotely realistic replacement.

"Do the people who used to work in those factories still live here?"

Given how easy it seemed to be to reprogram them into killers (which we saw in Mitchell's episode,) I'm not surprised. Nature doesn't really play nice with such industrial-scale practices.

He shrugs. "Some of them probably do."

Okay. If I check with Dox that he doesn't need Queen Artemis's magicians right now, and… No further high-end magic threats arise, I can employ them to make more Dolmen Gates for Cadburys Logistics. Put a terminus here…

"Okay, I've got an idea. Let's finish sweeping this block, and then I'll need to go and talk to the mayor."

Ah, making use of superheroic solutions to mundane problems...

I'm guessing he plans to revitalise the city by setting up some distribution centres or manufacturing facilities in the city. It's certainly one of the things OL does well, injecting new life into logistical dead-ends and economic downturns. No wonder boss Smiley doesn't like him.

And every time he does it, the world gets a little more interesting.

Bud-E · Mar 16, 2025

Are the Atlantean magicians rejoining N.E.M.O., or are they staying in Atlantis?

Ngamer11 · Mar 16, 2025

Bud-E said:
Are the Atlantean magicians rejoining N.E.M.O., or are they staying in Atlantis?

Considering they're probably still recovering from everything Gamemnae did to them, I think they won't be working for N.E.M.O. any time soon.

Darko · Mar 16, 2025

Ngamer11 said:
Considering they're probably still recovering from everything Gamemnae did to them, I think they won't be working for N.E.M.O. any time soon.

Plus fixing whatever she did to bring Atlantis to the surface will take all the skill and power that they have.

Not to mention the potential political crisis.

With segregation coming back, even if it was relatively briefly, a lot of resentment and anger may have cropped up if any of the purebloods looked too enthusiastic when they were telking people that segregation will be coming back.

Duke Long · Mar 16, 2025

Mr Zoat said:
I nod. "One kidnap victim. Should make a physical recovery in a couple of days. Some booby traps, but it's all mundane stuff. Reasonable impressive engineering. I didn't think that was his thing."

"You'd be surprised what skills they pick up. And I think there's some sort of freelance henchmen build crew somewhere."

'Reasonably'?
'henchman'?

With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

This is filth! FILTH!!

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hey, little Anna, you're the one

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Making the rounds.

Know what you're doing yet?

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Versed in the lewd.

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