With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Stsword]

Some people will do horrible, evil things even if they make no sense.

Heck, it wouldn't be the first time the Confederacy had done that.

During the Civil War, General Lee would make any captured black Union soldiers into slaves.

During negotiations the Union offered to release Confederate prisoners if Lee released said black soldiers, but Lee refused, even though he needed the men.

Click to shrink...

The Confederacy was founded on doing evil things that make no sense.

The idea that the Confederacy was fighting a defensive war is bad fanfic made up by lying assholes.

The Confederate slavers knew their slavery system was unsustainable so rather than do anything even remotely intelligent like stop cosplaying as British aristocracy, they decided the solution was to spread slavery.

They already had plans to invade Mexico and Brazil while the Union was kicking their asses.

The Confederacy was a freaking slavery pyramid scheme.

So in all those popular "What if the Confederacy survived?" alt-histories, the actual but boring result would have actually been the dumb fucks would have been destroyed in another war of conquest they started because that was the entire point of the Confederacy.

 

[Mr Zoat]

The Confederacy was founded on doing evil things that make no sense.

The idea that the Confederacy was fighting a defensive war is bad fanfic made up by lying assholes.

The Confederate slavers knew their slavery system was unsustainable so rather than do anything even remotely intelligent like stop cosplaying as British aristocracy, they decided the solution was to spread slavery.

They already had plans to invade Mexico and Brazil while the Union was kicking their asses.

The Confederacy was a freaking slavery pyramid scheme.

So in all those popular "What if the Confederacy survived?" alt-histories, the actual but boring result would have actually been the dumb fucks would have been destroyed in another war of conquest they started because that was the entire point of the Confederacy.

Click to shrink...

In-universe, the United States lost because the Confederacy's initial push was successful enough that Britain leaned on them to accept what looked like a fait accompli. That created the enmity between the US and Britain, and led to the US allying with Germany. The Confederacy actually had good relations with Mexico, buying the northern parts after supporting the Emperor in a war. I forget who with. They also picked up Cuba somewhere along the line.

 

[NightmareWarden]

So in all those popular "What if the Confederacy survived?" alt-histories, the actual but boring result would have actually been the dumb fucks would have been destroyed in another war of conquest they started because that was the entire point of the Confederacy.

Click to shrink...

Successfully getting a hand on the wheel when it comes to international relations, as portrayed in these chapters, is invaluable when it comes to stabilizing the present and building a foundation for the future. And the politicians of the Confederacy were extremely motivated to keep their country's heart beating via foreign money, not simply trade deals that the public learned about. Heck, a leader could use their own bribes to placate their one or two of their biggest critics with bribes, if they don't want to give an inch when it comes to policy.

 

[Mr Zoat]

12th August 2013
13:59 GMT

Lar-On sits up on his medical bed, staring at me with his eyes wide.

"You-you said it couldn't happen again!"

"That isn't exactly wh-."

"Great Krypton, who did I hurt this time!"

His transformation back into a bloke took most of the black paint with it, but not all. Medically, he checks out fine, and having put the extra effort to scan every single cell in his body for anomalous behaviour or energies… I think he's cured.

But I thought that last time.

We weren't stupid about it. We checked him with Earth's moon in isolated locations on Earth with gold kryptonite available in case something went wrong. He didn't change. We didn't test re-exposure… I vaguely remember that in the comics red kryptonite only altered a single individual once, but that was from an older comic and it got given a lot of other characteristics after that. In this timeline, Superman has made a point of destroying any sample he encounters once he's recovered from the initial exposure so I don't have good data.

"Scrapes and bruises only, and minimal structural damage to the Xenon base."

"I-!" He frowns, eyes dropping. "Xenon? But that's tiny."

"And you were inside it, which meant that you couldn't see a moon-shaped object. Which means that the issue is more conceptual."

"So… So I can just go to Tartarath, and I'll be fine?"

"I don't know."

"What?"

"I mean, I don't know. I mean, I can't think of any reason why you wouldn't be, but if your transformation has some sort of conceptual element, it… Could be."

"W-what do you mean? How many places did you move kryptonian moons to?"

"Just here, but I suggested that they rename Tartarath 'New Krypton'. It has a moon. Does that count?"

"Does it?"

"I don't know. And even if I take you there now and show it to you, does that matter? Or would it only affect you once the name change is generally accepted?"

"Does it?"

"I-."

"You don't know. You don't know. W-what do I do?"

"There are a few experiments we can run. Otherwise, we build a bunker and you lock yourself in whenever there's a full moon at night. Alright?"

He nods hesitantly.

"Up you get, then. No time like the present!"

He nods, rising from his bed and standing on the floor. "What tests?"

"Firstly, we test to see whether or not the moon still affects you."

"I think we tested that already."

"There's a chance that it was a one-off, and we need to check. Then we need to check you after exposing you to this kryptonite sample-."

"Why?"

"Because this is hardly the only sample of red kryptonite which exists. We need to get some idea of what they can do."

"Why do you need me for that? Shouldn't you be doing something in a laboratory with tissue samples?"

"I tried that. Red kryptonite is weirdly pernickety about what it actually works on. And in your case I already know how to stop the effect."

"What did you spray me with?"

"Paint. With no light reaching your skin, the effect ended. But the paint went with your fur and you didn't immediately transform, so either there's a delay, or that's it."

"That's it?"

"I want to test it a few times, but it looks like it."

He considers it for a moment.

"Okay. Let's do it."

I turn off the radiation shields around the room. "Feel anything?" He shakes his head. "Okay, right this way." I open the door and wait outside. The Xenon facility isn't all that large, and it's pretty obvious where we are.

"We're..?"

"As I said, we're fairly sure that it wasn't a problem. Next step…"

"Ah-?"

I take out the tiny fragments of red kryptonite out of subspace and hold them out to him.

"Feel anything?"

"No." He shakes his head. "How long is it supposed to take?"

"The red kryptonite-induced changes I've studied have been instant. So it looks like you're good." I send them back into subspace. "My best guess is that the transformation 'used up' the last of the radiation in your body, but I admit that's based on my observations and not on any theoretical understanding of the underlying mechanisms. And now…"

I generate a zeta tube construct, and he's standing up a little straighter when he walks through. I

follow up, appearing

on Tartarath a moment later. We're on the side of the planet facing away from the sun, and the moon is just rising…

"Feeling anything?"

He looks nervously up at the sky. "No."

"I hereby christen this planet 'New Krypton'! How about now?"

"No. I… Fine?"

"I thought you would be. Unless you have an objection, I'll fly you over to where the new settlement is being set up."

"Yes, please. I think, even if it doesn't affect me, I'd rather be away from Xenon."

"I quite understand. I wish you all success in your future endeavours."

 

[GigaVanguard]

"I hereby christen this planet 'New Krypton'! How about now?"

Click to shrink...

"I didn't say it, I declared it."

 

[Duke Long]

"The red kryptonite induced changes I've studied have been instant. So it looks like you're good." I send them back into subspace. "My best guess is that the transformation 'used up' the last of the radiation in your body, but I admit that's based on my observations and not on any theoretical understanding of the underlying mechanisms. And now…"

Click to shrink...

'kryptonite-induced'?

 

[CrazyNoVa]

I hereby christen this planet 'New Krypton'! How about now?"

Click to shrink...

It's one small step for man, but one giant leap for Zoatkind!

 

[Chojin Patriarch]

12th August 2013
13:59 GMT

Lar-On sits up on his medical bed, staring at me with his eyes wide.

"You-you said it couldn't happen again!"

Click to shrink...

Well, OL does make pronouncements with vexing regularity that often get proved wrong. This was hardly the first time. The trick now is what measures he's taken to analyse and purge the Red K radiation, and investigated any mystical aspect to it.

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

"That isn't exactly wh-."

"Great Krypton, who did I hurt this time!"

Click to shrink...

Fortunately, they were more than capable of handling you this time.

His transformation back into a bloke took most of the black paint with it, but not all. Medically, he checks out fine, and having put the extra effort to scan every single cell in his body for anomalous behaviour or energies… I think he's cured.

But I thought that last time.

Click to shrink...

And this time you're making quite sure you're actually correct? Due diligence, OL.

We weren't stupid about it. We checked him with Earth's moon in isolated locations on Earth with gold kryptonite available in case something went wrong. He didn't change. We didn't test re-exposure… I vaguely remember that in the comics red kryptonite only altered a single individual once, but that was from an older comic and it got given a lot of other characteristics after that. In this timeline, Superman has made a point of destroying any sample he encounters once he's recovered from the initial exposure so I don't have good data.

Click to shrink...

...But were they in the presence of a Phantom Zone portal? That's pretty much the only known new element to this.

"Scrapes and bruises only, and minimal structural damage to the Xenon base."

"I-!" He frowns, eyes dropping. "Xenon? But that's tiny."

Click to shrink...

Relatively speaking, anyway. Any facility seems huge from the inside. Just consider how big a house feels when you're inside compared to looking at the outside from a dozen metres away.

"And you were inside it, which meant that you couldn't see a moon-shaped object. Which means that the issue is more conceptual."

"So… So I can just go to Tartarath, and I'll be fine?"

Click to shrink...

That depends, Tartarath has moons, yes? Will they also trigger it?

"I don't know."

"What?"

Click to shrink...

I know, seems awful to hear, but sometimes, the first step to learning is admitting you don't know.

"I mean, I don't know. I mean, I can't think of any reason why you wouldn't be, but if your transformation has some sort of conceptual element, it… Could be."

"W-what do you mean? How many places did you move kryptonian moons to?"

Click to shrink...

Can't have been many. Not like it had a gas giant's moon system.

"Just here, but I suggested that they rename Tartarath 'New Krypton'. It has a moon. Does that count?"

"Does it?"

Click to shrink...

Oooh, nothing's ever gone wrong with an idea like that...

"I don't know. And even if I take you there now and show it to you, does that matter? Or would it only affect you once the name change is generally accepted?"

"Does it?"

Click to shrink...

Yeah, don't toy with him, OL. It's very clear how concerned he is about this.

"I-."

"You don't know. You don't know. W-what do I do?"

Click to shrink...

Sometimes, you just gotta dive in. Though it does help to check the pool is deep enough beforehand.

"There are a few experiments we can run. Otherwise, we build a bunker and you lock yourself in whenever there's a full moon at night. Alright?"

He nods hesitantly.

Click to shrink...

Not optimal, and that's a big old point of failure there. What if he can't get there in time? Or the bunker gets destroyed somehow?

"Up you get, then. No time like the present!"

He nods, rising from his bed and standing on the floor. "What tests?"

Click to shrink...

Presumably a second round of the ones they did before. Exposure to various lunar light reflections?

"Firstly, we test to see whether or not the moon still affects you."

"I think we tested that already."

Click to shrink...

Still, it's a good starting point.

"There's a chance that it was a one-off, and we need to check. Then we need to check you after exposing you to this kryptonite sample-."

"Why?"

Click to shrink...

Presumably the same chunks he pulled out of Lar-On earlier.

"Because this is hardly the only sample of red kryptonite which exists. We need to get some idea of what they can do."

"Why do you need me for that? Shouldn't you be doing something in a laboratory with tissue samples?"

Click to shrink...

You have prior exposure with a known result. That's an invaluable experimental foundation.

"I tried that. Red kryptonite is weirdly pernickety about what it actually works on. And in your case I already know how to stop the effect."

"What did you spray me with?"

"Paint. With no light reaching your skin, the effect ended. But the paint went with your fur and you didn't immediately transform, so either there's a delay, or that's it."

Click to shrink...

Another sign of it possibly being magical in nature. There's a big difference between human-like body hair and animal fur. Where did it come from, and where did it go? Where did you come from, Cotton-eye Joe?

"That's it?"

"I want to test it a few times, but it looks like it."

Click to shrink...

Keeping in mind the supposed 'immunity' to subsequent exposures of the same fragment. Presumably something akin to an auto-immune reaction...

He considers it for a moment.

"Okay. Let's do it."

Click to shrink...

Nothing to lose, after all. They can stop you if you transform into Super-Wolfman again, and nearly any other induced transformation has to be better than that.

I turn off the radiation shields around the room. "Feel anything?" He shakes his head. "Okay, right this way." I open the door and wait outside. The Xenon facility isn't all that large, and it's pretty obvious where we are.

"We're..?"

Click to shrink...

Safest place to keep him, once everyone squishy cleared out. Even if he transformed, ran outside and jumped towards Earth, it would still take a while for him to arrive, if he can hold his breath that long.

"As I said, we're fairly sure that it wasn't a problem. Next step…"

"Ah-?"

I take out the tiny fragments of red kryptonite out of subspace and hold them out to him.

Click to shrink...

Surprised you didn't just fuse it into a single tiny fragment, given that they'd be dust-sized particles. Anything bigger would have been detected, surely.

"Feel anything?"

"No." He shakes his head. "How long is it supposed to take?"

Click to shrink...

Hmm... Could be temporary immunity to them, could just be not strong emissions enough in this arrangement.

"The red kryptonite induced changes I've studied have been instant. So it looks like you're good." I send them back into subspace. "My best guess is that the transformation 'used up' the last of the radiation in your body, but I admit that's based on my observations and not on any theoretical understanding of the underlying mechanisms. And now…"

Click to shrink...

Even with Kryptonian research into their own biology, this is hardly an exact science.

I generate a zeta tube construct, and he's standing up a little straighter when he walks through. I

follow up, appearing

on Tartarath a moment later. We're on the side of the planet facing away from the sun, and the moon is just rising…

Click to shrink...

Probably not full, unless they're very good timing.

"Feeling anything?"

He looks nervously up at the sky. "No."

Click to shrink...

Well, besides a large amount of both apprehension and relief, fighting like cats.

"I hereby christen this planet 'New Krypton'! How about now?"

"No. I… Fine?"

Click to shrink...

Could still have an issue if it needs a certain cultural weight behind it, but so far so good?

"I thought you would be. Unless you have an objection, I'll fly you over to where the new settlement is being set up."

"Yes, please. I think, even if it doesn't affect me, I'd rather be away from Xenon."

"I quite understand. I wish you all success in your future endeavours."

Click to shrink...

I assume some people are already on site, otherwise it could be a lonely however long.

I have a feeling we've not seen the last of the Super-Wolfman, but by and large, the colony should have resources to contain another outbreak. Hopefully things go better for him in future. Meanwhile, the matter of Zod and Ursa still hangs over the heroes' heads like a 10-ton weight, just waiting for the string holding it to snap...

 

[Cuchulin]

The Confederacy was founded on doing evil things that make no sense.

The idea that the Confederacy was fighting a defensive war is bad fanfic made up by lying assholes.

The Confederate slavers knew their slavery system was unsustainable so rather than do anything even remotely intelligent like stop cosplaying as British aristocracy, they decided the solution was to spread slavery.

They already had plans to invade Mexico and Brazil while the Union was kicking their asses.

The Confederacy was a freaking slavery pyramid scheme.

So in all those popular "What if the Confederacy survived?" alt-histories, the actual but boring result would have actually been the dumb fucks would have been destroyed in another war of conquest they started because that was the entire point of the Confederacy.

Click to shrink...

Two thing people tend to not learn or forget about American plantation slavery and the Confederacy, first is that Cotton was King and the Southern economy was based almost entirely on growing it as well as a couple other cash crops. Second is that VERY bad for soil fertility, so growing it in the same field over and over again means that how much you can grow will go down pretty quickly. Third because of the first two? That system DESPERATLY NEEDED to keep expanding which fueled things like West Ward expansion and the removal of Natives (As I recall that and Mexico being at least mildly Anti-Slavery was the main reason for the formation of the Republic of Texas) as well as leading to the oldest plantations becoming more like ranches that raised humans than farms by the 1860's.

 

[Mr Zoat]

'kryptonite-induced'?

Click to shrink...

Thank you, corrected.

 

[AverusBlack]

Meanwhile, the matter of Zod and Ursa still hangs over the heroes' heads like a 10-ton weight, just waiting for the string holding it to snap...

Click to shrink...

It did not escape my notice that they were both out of sight and the one who took them down is the same fellow who used to work with them, who now professes to be against them. Paul is a difficult person to lie to, but not invincible. I haven't entirely written off Non as a problem. It wouldn't surprise me if Dru-zod hadn't stuck some kind of conditioning into his mind or some nonsense like that, and we haven't seen an on-screen verification that Zod and Ursa are both in custody and under control. Granted, it's not on Zoat to show every step along the way, but until things go on as normal I can't help but wonder.

 

[Vaermina]

12th August 2013
13:59 GMT

Click to shrink...

It continues to be odd that he doesn't check have him checked for Magic given the possible werewolf connection.

 

[Duke Long]

It continues to be odd that he doesn't check have him checked for Magic given the possible werewolf connection.

Click to shrink...

Given that we know he has done offscreen testing with this guy, it seems likely that he actually did at least wave a runestone at him, or maybe got a wizard to have a look.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Universe 191
22nd May 1954
01:53 GMT

"…proliferation of such devastating weapons to more countries."

I nod. "Japan will obviously try to develop fission bombs. They have absolutely no reason not to and every reason to do so."

"To what end?"

"To ensure that the United States won't attack them." I make a circling motion with my right hand. "As things stand, there isn't anything to stop the Untied States sending a carrier with heavy bombers on board across the Pacific and levelling Tokyo other than the diligence of the Japanese navy. And without the British and Confederate navy helping them, the United States can out-produce them by a colossal order of magnitude. The only reason why they haven't done so is because the Japanese basically ceded the Pacific and because the people of America don't have the same animus towards them that they do towards the Confederates."

"But if the United States has no intention of going to war with them, why would they need such a destructive weapon?"

I smile. "You answered your own question, there. If they start looking like an easy target, someone in the War Office will eventually suggest that your diplomatic corps lean on them. 'Why not finish the war?', they'll say, 'It's not like they can stop us.'. And the only way Japan can be sure that that won't happen is if they have a weapon that would let them return the favour. If the home islands disappear under mushroom clouds, so does the western seaboard. And as long as the American government believes that will be the result… They won't do it."

"That's… Mad."

"Yes. Mutually Assured Destruction. Each party knows that any war will result in mutual annihilation, so neither party dares attack the other. Take Britain, for example. Sure, the Germans probably aren't happy that we've got a space-based strategic weapon, but how does it actually change their calculations? They're going to maintain their fission bomber wings just in case, to retaliate in case we attack them… But we're not going to, because we can't reliably intercept the bombers that would survive our first strike. And we certainly couldn't stop the ones America would send afterwards. Likewise, even if they snuck fission bombs into every city in Britain and detonated them, they couldn't stop our astronauts retaliating once they found out who did it. So they won't."

"And you believe that if Japan doesn't get their own superbombs, war is inevitable."

"I'm not completely sure it's not inevitable anyway, but…" I nod repeatedly. "Yes."

"So you don't see the point in the treaty."

"'We're allowed these horrible weapons that can destroy entire cities in one blast, and you're not, and you're morally obliged to accept this state of affairs'?" I shrug. "Who can afford to accept something like that? I suspect that Mexico is frantically searching for any Confederate nuclear scientists who dodged the O.S.S. and didn't come here, and I suspect that Brazil is doing something similar. They have to. Anyone who doesn't have a strategic deterrent will inevitably become dominated by those who do. Any expansionist nation needs one as soon as possible. Any non-expansionist nation will need one within a decade… Two at the outside."

"Mister Talwyn, that sounds almost exactly like the alliance block philosophy that caused the Great War to spread out across the entire world."

I wiggle my right forefinger. "No. The difference is that dropping a fission bomb is so-. Darn easy when compared to mass mobilisation. It only takes a handful of people. And because it only takes a handful of people, it can be hidden so much more easily. When the Russian Empire mobilised at the start of the Great War, the Germans had months of notice, during which they could do the same thing. While trying to find a peaceful solution to the dispute." I shake my head. "That's not where we are anymore."

I tilt back my head slightly. Might as well steal all the memorable lines that I can.

"Hah. 'I don't know what weapons will be used to fight the Third Great War, but the fourth will be fought with sticks and rocks'."

"What about all of the countries that have signed up so far?"

"That wasn't a sign of the direction of travel. That was them accepting that they're either too backwards to have a nuclear program at all, or that they don't think they could get away with it before someone -probably Germany- forcibly stopped them. Or it's a play for American or German help with something or other."

"Don't you think that's a little pessimistic?"

"I literally had representatives from America and Germany in my office two weeks ago demanding that I sign." I lean forwards slightly. "They haven't been back since they found out that it was too late."

"The treaty only restricts superbomb production."

"No." I shake my head. "No. Read the full text. The enforcement mechanism involves letting representatives of America and Germany go where they like in a signatory's country, interrogate who they like, demand whatever information they like. Any country that signs becomes a puppet to their new overlords whenever those overlords demand it."

"So that's where you see the world going? A handful of powerful nations that dare not attack one another, and their puppets?"

"Mmm." I think for a moment, then nod. "Basically, yes. The United States will obviously dominate North America when it eventually beats revanchism out of the former Confederates. If Mexico has any sense then they'll ally with Brazil. If they don't, the United States will get them as well, otherwise Brazil will. Brazil gets South America, Japan gets Asia and Australasia, Germany gets Europe -except us- and no one wants Africa. And I say 'except us', but I imagine that we'll see an uptick in trade with Germany as the decades pass."

"Do you think that the alliance between the German Empire and the United States of America will remain in effect?"

"On paper? Yes. There's no real reason for the two of you to fight, and you're both busy consolidating your territorial gains. In practice, without strong enemies to be allied against it's going to lose significance. Neither country really needs to trade with the other, and neither country can really help the other with their internal problems."

"But the relationship won't turn hostile."

"I don't see why it would. Although…" I shrug. "Britain and the United States spent eighty years at loggerheads despite sharing a culture, economic system, language and religion, and having no competing territorial claims, so I suppose anything's possible."

"One last question before we wrap up for the evening. Do you really see no way to ensure lasting peace? No… Worldwide brotherhood of men?"

I think briefly about the second alien fleet drifting through the void towards us, lightly armed but carrying all of the equipment needed to begin a new colony.

"I think that the only thing that could do that would be a threat external to all of us."

"Such as?"

"Men from another world. Men with the patience to cross the vast void between the stars and come here with conquest in their weird alien hearts. I think that if the world was threatened with such an invasion, we would find all nations cooperating to protect human control of our homeworld. And with a little luck, that would stay in place when we made preparations to send a fleet to their homeworld in return, to ensure that they could never threaten us again."

"Men from Mars?"

"No, no. Mars is a frigid desert. I'm talking about further afield. Faster than light travel doesn't violate the laws of physics as we understand them, but even without that there are dozens of types of animal who can hibernate, or even survive being entirely frozen. We can't do that with humans yet, but there's no reason to assume that we're the most advanced species in the galaxy."

"Mankind's only hope for peace and unity is a war with men from another star?"

"Yes."

He works his jaw for a moment, and then for the first time in the interview risks a small smile. "I think the chances of something like that happening are a million to one."

I reach into my pocket and pull out a coin. "One silver dollar. Pre-war." I hold it out to him. "I will take those odds."

"Maybe, but my bank account won't. Mister Talwyn, thank you for speaking to me."

"Thank you."

 

[Darko]

representatives from America and German in my office two weeks ago demanding that I sign." I lean

Click to shrink...

"Germany"

"Do you think that the alliance between the Germany Empire

Click to shrink...

"German Empire"

 

[Ngamer11]

"Mankind's only hope for peace and unity is a war with men from another star?"

"Yes."

He works his jaw for a moment, and then for the first time in the interview risks a small smile. "I think the chances of something like that happening are a million to one."

I reach into my pocket and pull out a coin. "One silver dollar. Pre-war." I hold it out to him. "I will take those odds."

"Maybe, but my bank account won't. Mister Talwyn, thank you for speaking to me."

"Thank you."

Click to shrink...

People are going to ask how long Britain has known about aliens when they invade. I hope we'll get to see that happen here.

 

[yingyang590]

Did he already deal with the first fleet in orbit with the ring?

 

[hance1986]

And orbital railguns can be turned around to face outwards at lizard colonizers looking to plant a flag on your land.

Britain having space infrastructure and space weapons means Britain will have an advantage and a leadership position when the Lizards come.

Did he already deal with the first fleet in orbit with the ring?

Click to shrink...

Yeah. The first Lizard fleet was the military fleet sent first to clear landing zones on Earth and conquer it so the second fleet coming slower arrives ready to create a colony.

Paul hit the first fleet and took all the valuable technology which is why Britain is moving on up to the East Side. Britain are also the only ones who know about the Lizards. The second fleet is still coming but is years out and is not an immediate threat.

Also the first Lizard fleet was the military fleet and the one that was heavily armed. The Colonization Fleet is lightly armed by comparison.

 

[Mr Zoat]

"Germany"
"German Empire"

Click to shrink...

Thank you, corrected.

 

[BR549]

People are going to ask how long Britain has known about aliens when they invade. I hope we'll get to see that happen here.

Click to shrink...

Did he already deal with the first fleet in orbit with the ring?

Click to shrink...

They didn't even make it to orbit.

I'm assuming that the moment he realised he was in a Turtledove universe, Paul went looking. He found them. And cleaned their clocks.

"Did you acquire this from some sort of space men?"

"Four foot tall lizard space men, to be precise." I release him and approach the Prime Minister, then look over to a comparatively open area to his right and raise my left hand. "If you gentlemen could make a space?"

The space is made with alacrity.

"This is one of their tanks. Note the general shape of the armour. You can keep it; I've got hundreds of thousands of the things. This is one of their fighters. Note the exterior radar and missiles. You can keep it; I've got hundreds of thousands of the things. I've put about half of the ships I acquired in orbit around Jupiter, the other half will get here in a few decades. I'll take a team of researchers there once you've assembled one."

Mr. Wilson tries to keep his face calm.

"What happened to their owners?"

"They tried to invade my planet and got their just deserts."

"Their government?"

"They tried to have their army invade my planet and got their just deserts. If their species reorganised their government immediately and started rebuilding their military infrastructure immediately after that then they might be able to get another fleet here in eighty years. They won't." He doesn't look reassured. "Have you ever met a lizard you liked?"

Click to shrink...

...as in, he destroyed the invasion fleet, appears to have neutralized the colonization fleet, and then went to the Race homeworld and dealt with the immediate problem at the source.

Given his wording implies he's already acquired the colonization fleet, it appears it may be less 'invasion' and more 'disclosure'.

 

[Chojin Patriarch]

Universe 191
22nd May 1954
01:53 GMT

"…proliferation of such devastating weapons to more countries."

I nod. "Japan will obviously try to develop fission bombs. They have absolutely no reason not to and every reason to do so."

"To what end?"

Click to shrink...

To stop certain other peoples from using them on them. It's simple tribal logic. If a belligerent neighbour has a weapon, then you want your tribe to have that weapon to, so you fight on an even footing. Or in this case, annihilate each other.

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

"To ensure that the United States won't attack them." I make a circling motion with my right hand. "As things stand, there isn't anything to stop the Untied States sending a carrier with heavy bombers on board across the Pacific and levelling Tokyo other than the diligence of the Japanese navy. And without the British and Confederate navy helping them, the United States can out-produce them by a colossal order of magnitude. The only reason why they haven't done so is because the Japanese basically ceded the Pacific and because the people of America don't have the same animus towards them that they do towards the Confederates."

Click to shrink...

And I'm not sure of the progress of long-range detection technology like Radar. So a fleet moving far enough from common lanes of travel could conceivably sneak across the largest ocean on the planet to within striking range of the Japanese capital. It's highly unlikely, but still...

"But if the United States has no intention of going to war with them, why would they need such a destructive weapon?"

I smile. "You answered your own question, there. If they start looking like an easy target, someone in the War Office will eventually suggest that your diplomatic corps lean on them. 'Why not finish the war?', they'll say, 'It's not like they can stop us.'. And the only way Japan can be sure that that won't happen is if they have a weapon that would let them return the favour. If the home islands disappear under mushroom clouds, so does the western seaboard. And as long as the American government believes that will be the result… They won't do it."

Click to shrink...

The drawback of having a shiny new weapon: Those with the ability to wield it inevitably start feeling the urge to do so. But in this case, itchy trigger fingers won't end well.

"That's… Mad."

"Yes. Mutually Assured Destruction. Each party knows that any war will result in mutual annihilation, so neither party dares attack the other. Take Britain, for example. Sure, the Germans probably aren't happy that we've got a space-based strategic weapon, but how does it actually change their calculations? They're going to maintain their fission bomber wings just in case, to retaliate in case we attack them… But we're not going to, because we can't reliably intercept the bombers that would survive our first strike. And we certainly couldn't stop the ones America would send afterwards. Likewise, even if they snuck fission bombs into every city in Britain and detonated them, they couldn't stop our astronauts retaliating once they found out who did it. So they won't."

Click to shrink...

The best result is a total standoff. Less great is a cold war via proxies. And the biggest nations probably have a few they could pressure into doing so.

"And you believe that if Japan doesn't get their own superbombs, war is inevitable."

"I'm not completely sure it's not inevitable anyway, but…" I nod repeatedly. "Yes."

"So you don't see the point in the treaty."

Click to shrink...

If it gives the world peace for a while, that's good, right? And whoever breaks it first will probably be seen as the bad guy, depending on who remains standing afterwards.

"'We're allowed these horrible weapons that can destroy entire cities in one blast, and you're not, and you're morally obliged to accept this state of affairs'?" I shrug. "Who can afford to accept something like that? I suspect that Mexico is frantically searching for any Confederate nuclear scientists who dodged the O.S.S. and didn't come here, and I suspect that Brazil is doing something similar. They have to. Anyone who doesn't have a strategic deterrent will inevitably become dominated by those who do. Any expansionist nation needs one as soon as possible. Any non-expansionist nation will need one within a decade… Two at the outside."

Click to shrink...

Even if they have to get the plans by espionage. Not that it would be easy, of course. They'd be kept in the most secure facilities in the country. On the other hands, given a general knowledge of physics, working out the method from scratch isn't impossible either. hence the hunt for scientists, of course...

"Mister Talwyn, that sounds almost exactly like the alliance block philosophy that caused the Great War to spread out across the entire world."

I wiggle my right forefinger. "No. The difference is that dropping a fission bomb is so-. Darn easy when compared to mass mobilisation. It only takes a handful of people. And because it only takes a handful of people, it can be hidden so much more easily. When the Russian Empire mobilised at the start of the Great War, the Germans had months of notice, during which they could do the same thing. While trying to find a peaceful solution to the dispute." I shake my head. "That's not where we are anymore."

Click to shrink...

Although, once events hit a certain point, the momentum is just too great to hold off war. The build-up to our World War I was like that, with good men trying to hold back mechanisms of war through diplomacy. But in the end, it may well come down to a misunderstood sympathetic statement by an aide, and a ruler casts the dice that completes the Seminal Tragedy...

I tilt back my head slightly. Might as well steal all the memorable lines that I can.

"Hah. 'I don't know what weapons will be used to fight the Third Great War, but the fourth will be fought with sticks and rocks'."

Click to shrink...

The implication, of course, being that all the modern weapons of man will be rendered useless in the face of nuclear annihilation, and those that survive such a war will be clawing their way back from a primitive state...

"What about all of the countries that have signed up so far?"

"That wasn't a sign of the direction of travel. That was them accepting that they're either too backwards to have a nuclear program at all, or that they don't think they could get away with it before someone -probably Germany- forcibly stopped them. Or it's a play for American or German help with something or other."

Click to shrink...

Or simply cowering before the nuclear power that turns their way. Or all of the above.

"Don't you think that's a little pessimistic?"

"I literally had representatives from America and German in my office two weeks ago demanding that I sign." I lean forwards slightly. "They haven't been back since they found out that it was too late."

Click to shrink...

And to some degree, it depends on the wording of the treaty. Does it generalise on large-scale weapons, or does it refer only to 'sueprbombs' because no-one imagined anything deadlier could exist?

"The treaty only restricts superbomb production."

"No." I shake my head. "No. Read the full text. The enforcement mechanism involves letting representatives of America and Germany go where they like in a signatory's country, interrogate who they like, demand whatever information they like. Any country that signs becomes a puppet to their new overlords whenever those overlords demand it."

Click to shrink...

For some, the strings may hang loosely for a time, but sooner or later... Their puppetmasters will pull them taut, and the world will feel the sting of war once more.

"So that's where you see the world going? A handful of powerful nations that dare not attack one another, and their puppets?"

"Mmm." I think for a moment, then nod. "Basically, yes. The United States will obviously dominate North America when it eventually beats revanchism out of the former Confederates. If Mexico has any sense then they'll ally with Brazil. If they don't, the United States will get them as well, otherwise Brazil will. Brazil gets South America, Japan gets Asia and Australasia, Germany gets Europe -except us- and no one wants Africa. And I say 'except us', but I imagine that we'll see an uptick in trade with Germany as the decades pass."

Click to shrink...

Much like our Cold War, the two great Worlds of Democracy and Communism staring at each other across an iron curtain. And any nation allied supported by them will find pressure to take action against the other's proxies growing heavier.

"Do you think that the alliance between the Germany Empire and the United States of America will remain in effect?"

"On paper? Yes. There's no real reason for the two of you to fight, and you're both busy consolidating your territorial gains. In practice, without strong enemies to be allied against it's going to lose significance. Neither country really needs to trade with the other, and neither country can really help the other with their internal problems."

Click to shrink...

The classic issue of the malevolent tyrant. You need enemies to unite your people's anger against. Without them, you're not likely to be allowed to keep the power you've claimed.

"But the relationship won't turn hostile."

"I don't see why it would. Although…" I shrug. "Britain and the United States spent eighty years at loggerheads despite sharing a culture, economic system, language and religion, and having no competing territorial claims, so I suppose anything's possible."

Click to shrink...

A state of affairs resulting from the tensions produced where the similarities were too great. Familiarity, contempt, all that...

"One last question before we wrap up for the evening. Do you really see no way to ensure lasting peace? No… Worldwide brotherhood of men?"

I think briefly about the second alien fleet drifting through the void towards us, lightly armed but carrying all of the equipment needed to begin a new colony.

Click to shrink...

Which he would have had to have found by accidentally running into the forerunning invasion fleet, given he would not possess knowledge of the universe he's inserted into. Unless he lost knowledge of one Turtledove 'verse but not the other. (The World War series and the Southern Victory series, plus any others...)

"I think that the only thing that could do that would be a threat external to all of us."

"Such as?"

Click to shrink...

What does it sound like he's suggesting? Demons from hell?

"Men from another world. Men with the patience to cross the vast void between the stars and come here with conquest in their weird alien hearts. I think that if the world was threatened with such an invasion, we would find all nations cooperating to protect human control of our homeworld. And with a little luck, that would stay in place when we made preparations to send a fleet to their homeworld in return, to ensure that they could never threaten us again."

Click to shrink...

And everyone will be thinking 'Oh, gosh. He's a fan of Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon...'

"Men from Mars?"

"No, no. Mars is a frigid desert. I'm talking about further afield. Faster then light travel doesn't violate the laws of physics as we understand them, but even without that there are dozens of types of animal who can hibernate, or even survive being entirely frozen. We can't do that with humans yet, but there's no reason to assume that we're the most advanced species in the galaxy."

Click to shrink...

Though him being so definite about Mars might raise suspicions. Were observations of the red planet so detailed they could be sure of its surface conditions at this stage?

"Mankind's only hope for peace and unity is a war with men from another star?"

"Yes."

Click to shrink...

And all the military intelligence lads will be going 'pfft, guy's cracked. There's no such thing as aliens...' And then start making plans to fight theoretical invaders anyway. Because that's what they do in peacetime.

He works his jaw for a moment, and then for the first time in the interview risks a small smile. "I think the chances of something like that happening are a million to one."

I reach into my pocket and pull out a coin. "One silver dollar. Pre-war." I hold it out to him. "I will take those odds."

Click to shrink...

...And now those planning lads are suddenly feeling not so sure.

"Maybe, but my bank account won't. Mister Talwyn, thank you for speaking to me."

"Thank you."

Click to shrink...

Because a million dollars in 1950's money was a lot even in our world.

Mister Taylwn dropping a few subtle hints in his answers there, though most people would probably dismiss the ideas out of hand. But when you think about his space guns... Maybe a fleet of alien invaders flying along doesn't seem so improbable. I suspect more than a few generals in Germany and the US are going to be eyeing the stars thoughtfully now...

 

[Duke Long]

"No, no. Mars is a frigid desert. I'm talking about further afield. Faster then light travel doesn't violate the laws of physics as we understand them, but even without that there are dozens of types of animal who can hibernate, or even survive being entirely frozen. We can't do that with humans yet, but there's no reason to assume that we're the most advanced species in the galaxy."

Click to shrink...

'than'

I think his dismissiveness of nuclear non-proliferation seems a little harsh. It's not just about preventing people from fighting back, it's also about preventing every two-bit dictator from being able to potentially start an apocalyptic nuclear war. Though I suppose that's much less concerning in the short term since the bombs are still plane-transported.

If the alien fleet is too easy to defeat, will it actually unite everyone? It seems like it might not.

 

[DAT_NOOB]

He works his jaw for a moment, and then for the first time in the interview risks a small smile. "I think the chances of something like that happening are a million to one."

I reach into my pocket and pull out a coin. "One silver dollar. Pre-war." I hold it out to him. "I will take those odds."

Click to shrink...

I love this line so much.

 

[Mr Zoat]

They didn't even make it to orbit.

I'm assuming that the moment he realised he was in a Turtledove universe, Paul went looking. He found them. And cleaned their clocks.

...as in, he destroyed the invasion fleet, appears to have neutralized the colonization fleet, and then went to the Race homeworld and dealt with the immediate problem at the source.

Given his wording implies he's already acquired the colonization fleet, it appears it may be less 'invasion' and more 'disclosure'.

Click to shrink...

Ah, no. He acquired their war fleet and levelled their capital. The colonisation fleet had already been sent and is still coming, with no idea that the war fleet was captured or that Home is in turmoil.

'than'

Click to shrink...

Strange things happen to time when you approach light speed.

If the alien fleet is too easy to defeat, will it actually unite everyone? It seems like it might not.

Click to shrink...

'Easy to defeat with a power ring when just about everyone on board is asleep' is rather different to 'easy to defeat with 1950's technology when everyone is awake'.

 

[Ngamer11]

Ah, no. He acquired their war fleet and levelled their capital. The colonisation fleet had already been sent and is still coming, with no idea that the war fleet was captured or that Home is in turmoil.

Click to shrink...

Now I want to know what they think of humans and Earth after Paul did this.