BrotherofaStudio
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It is, unless he takes responsibility for it and finds a way to deal with the situation before it gets completely out of control.
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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)
- Thread starter Mr Zoat
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- self insert young justice
Sojiko
Getting sticky.
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Greek mythology does have a lot of those.
BrotherofaStudio
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Indeed they do have a lot of them. Also called self fulfilling prophecies.
Mr Zoat
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Thank you, corrected.
Istaran
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Yes. And not a Sundae. If he is a dick to all 12 Olympians, everyone will insist he take a day off, coincidentally on a Sunday.
Vaermina
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This would be the equivalent of shooting the patient in the head to cure a papercut...
Which means Paragon will probably accept because he's an idiot.
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BR549
This is filth! FILTH!!
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One often meets one's destiny on the road one takes to avoid it.
Michael Vonica
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Let's be honest, does actively attempting to fulfill the prophecy in order to avoid having it blindside you ever actually help avoid it?
BlueMangoAdea
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In Greek myth? Never.
Vaermina
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That's because Greek Prophecy's aren't things that can be avoided.
Michael Vonica
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Vaermina response.
The idea of pretty much all prophecies is that they can not be avoided. So if something can not be avoided, then a person must simply twist that to their advantage. Am I fated to lose against my foe? Then I will be the one to choose where, when, in what manner, and at what cost. If a person is smart enough, they will even find a way to benefit from the situation. Of course, sometimes, a prophecy will recognize the metagaming, and punish the person for it.
Pinklestia
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"You would be talking with Diana Troy, not me."
Bud-E
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Rafin
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Classic mythology (as far as I know it) says that the humans or human-equivalent denizens of the world under the rule of Cronus lived through a golden age. And that said golden age started to decline after the ascension of Zeus. Hell, it was Zeus who contrived for the Pandora's box event to happen.
Mr Zoat
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Not really. Hugo is stronger than them because he's physically mature.
Coup Data (part 9)
Mr Zoat
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27th October 2012
06:59 GMT +3
"Would you be prepared to accept 'considered for parole, based on their behaviour'?"
Eris half-grins. "That sounds interesting."
Hecate tilts her head to the right, gazing at me with an expression of curiosity. "And how could you even make such an offer?"
"Any reasonably probable favourable outcome will result in a reduction in Zeus's power, and he's the one giving a hard no to ever releasing them. Hades prefers to allow freedom to the redeemed, and has granted it to all long-term residents of the Fields of Punishment."
"All of the titans."
Oh.
Including Tartarus and Erebos.
Freeing Tartarus wouldn't… Be an insurmountable problem. The few beings inside there could be relocated. The titans could be released to the Dream, and the Hekatonkheires to… Wherever they felt like living from now on.
That isn't true for Erebos. Erebos is where the souls of dead Hellenes exist. And less-importantly-but-still-somewhat-importantly, it's the power source for Hades and Family. Melinoë told me that Erebos hates them. It's a The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas problem and then some. Great afterlife at the cost of chaining up a primordial being that may not have done anything particularly wrong.
I mean, Hades could suck it up, but we need the afterlife. The power for the sophoncy of the souls here has to come from somewhere.
"I don't know. I have no principled objection, but there are obvious practical costs. I don't know enough about how titans function to offer a solution."
"You can't give me what I want for my information until you have my information."
"I can't promise anything anyway. I don't have an aim beyond 'twist Zeus's arm as hard as I need to in order to get Diana out'."
"Diana." Hecate smiles. "Zeus has sent her to Tartarus? That is awkward."
"For.. you?"
"Circe can hardly kill her if she's in Tartarus, can she?" I don't.. know what she's talking about. "Oh, you didn't know about that?"
"Know about what?"
"I'm Circe's patron. I'm the reason why she's not a shrivelled up wisp of a woman writhing in perpetual agony. The reason why she's murdered so many women who might cause that liberty to be rescinded."
I nod, smiling. "Great." Hecate raises her eyebrows. "If she's focused on Diana, then she's not going to target anyone else. And Diana's proven that she can take the attention. I'm not worried about Circe killing her now, when Diana's got so much more experience than when they first fought while Circe's basically the same. And Circe's unpleasant enough that I'm not going to be massively broken up about her suffering. So whatever… Historical evil you've been a party to, there's nothing happening now that requires my attention."
"What a marvellously self-serving viewpoint."
"Now, are you going to tell me about the titans, or do you want something else?"
"Very well. The very basics. Titans are primordial powers born of the first fumbling attempts of the minds of mortal creatures to comprehend the universe around them. They emerge in the depths of the Dream, connected only weakly to those who first conceived of them."
"What did that mean for the material universe?"
"A great deal. Humans struggled to conceive of the animated minds of natural forces. They dreamt things therefore that were at least a little human. Things that could be bargained with. Things that could love or hate. It was a great benefit for the earliest sorcerers, to have stable systems in the thaumosphere connected to those vast beings with which they could commune. Even if their core intelligences were alien to their human devotees."
"Helios isn't alien. Kon has spoken with him on several occasions."
"They're perfectly capable of learning. Most of them, at any rate. But to them, humans are small and distant unless they make a great deal of effort." She turns her head to Eris, staring at her for several seconds. "You call these efforts 'gods'."
"Because gods dwell within the thaumosphere, one step closer to the material universe. And are generally more human-like and can manifest here. Can titans do that?"
"No, not directly. You saw Oceanus create a body, but he did that by manipulating the Dream of Water. He wasn't in the material world's ocean. The Atlanteans' toy merely alters his narrow window on the world; their ancient forebears simply could not tolerate the idea that another being could know their waters more deeply than they."
"So where do gods come from?"
"The story of the world being created by parts of the bodies of the titans is true, though less literal than some scholars assumed."
"What about the cats?"
"The c-?"
Her neck cranes towards me, her eyes narrowing.
"How do you know about that?"
"I've got all of Venturia's spare researchers studying the Dream's connection to the material world. And I've had multiple encounters with time travellers. It wasn't hard to notice that something was off. And then there's all the internet cat videos."
"Then you should know that I can't know where the cats come in. Perhaps there was a cat with my name and nature who existed at some point or perhaps there was not." She shakes her heads, glaring at the universe. "It vexes me that I will likely never know how it was done."
Eris looks confused.
"Cats. What-? Why do you both know what that is?"
"Make yourself useful and I'll tell you. So gods are supposed to be… What, the titans' emissaries into the material universe?"
"Something like that. For most of them it wasn't a deliberate, purposive decision; it was more an… Interaction between the Dream and the material universe. Heat thrown up by the friction of two surfaces rubbing against each other."
"And that's where you come from."
"More human-like, and less primal. Weaker, but with more direct influence on the material universe. And able to commune with our titanic forebear."
"And the war?"
"We are human enough to hate being under the thumb of another. As we are closer to the Dream than the humans in the material universe, so the Dream is closer to us. Our power was not our own."
Eris sneers. "And some of the chaos-primordials had no sense of self-control."
"If you were different classes of being, how did the war work?"
"A flash of brilliance from Zeus, believe it or not. We were bound to the titans by the magic that made us. But could we not learn to manipulate that link, even reverse it?"
"It sounds like you could."
"And so fell Aether, and so rose Zeus."
06:59 GMT +3
"Would you be prepared to accept 'considered for parole, based on their behaviour'?"
Eris half-grins. "That sounds interesting."
Hecate tilts her head to the right, gazing at me with an expression of curiosity. "And how could you even make such an offer?"
"Any reasonably probable favourable outcome will result in a reduction in Zeus's power, and he's the one giving a hard no to ever releasing them. Hades prefers to allow freedom to the redeemed, and has granted it to all long-term residents of the Fields of Punishment."
"All of the titans."
Oh.
Including Tartarus and Erebos.
Freeing Tartarus wouldn't… Be an insurmountable problem. The few beings inside there could be relocated. The titans could be released to the Dream, and the Hekatonkheires to… Wherever they felt like living from now on.
That isn't true for Erebos. Erebos is where the souls of dead Hellenes exist. And less-importantly-but-still-somewhat-importantly, it's the power source for Hades and Family. Melinoë told me that Erebos hates them. It's a The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas problem and then some. Great afterlife at the cost of chaining up a primordial being that may not have done anything particularly wrong.
I mean, Hades could suck it up, but we need the afterlife. The power for the sophoncy of the souls here has to come from somewhere.
"I don't know. I have no principled objection, but there are obvious practical costs. I don't know enough about how titans function to offer a solution."
"You can't give me what I want for my information until you have my information."
"I can't promise anything anyway. I don't have an aim beyond 'twist Zeus's arm as hard as I need to in order to get Diana out'."
"Diana." Hecate smiles. "Zeus has sent her to Tartarus? That is awkward."
"For.. you?"
"Circe can hardly kill her if she's in Tartarus, can she?" I don't.. know what she's talking about. "Oh, you didn't know about that?"
"Know about what?"
"I'm Circe's patron. I'm the reason why she's not a shrivelled up wisp of a woman writhing in perpetual agony. The reason why she's murdered so many women who might cause that liberty to be rescinded."
I nod, smiling. "Great." Hecate raises her eyebrows. "If she's focused on Diana, then she's not going to target anyone else. And Diana's proven that she can take the attention. I'm not worried about Circe killing her now, when Diana's got so much more experience than when they first fought while Circe's basically the same. And Circe's unpleasant enough that I'm not going to be massively broken up about her suffering. So whatever… Historical evil you've been a party to, there's nothing happening now that requires my attention."
"What a marvellously self-serving viewpoint."
"Now, are you going to tell me about the titans, or do you want something else?"
"Very well. The very basics. Titans are primordial powers born of the first fumbling attempts of the minds of mortal creatures to comprehend the universe around them. They emerge in the depths of the Dream, connected only weakly to those who first conceived of them."
"What did that mean for the material universe?"
"A great deal. Humans struggled to conceive of the animated minds of natural forces. They dreamt things therefore that were at least a little human. Things that could be bargained with. Things that could love or hate. It was a great benefit for the earliest sorcerers, to have stable systems in the thaumosphere connected to those vast beings with which they could commune. Even if their core intelligences were alien to their human devotees."
"Helios isn't alien. Kon has spoken with him on several occasions."
"They're perfectly capable of learning. Most of them, at any rate. But to them, humans are small and distant unless they make a great deal of effort." She turns her head to Eris, staring at her for several seconds. "You call these efforts 'gods'."
"Because gods dwell within the thaumosphere, one step closer to the material universe. And are generally more human-like and can manifest here. Can titans do that?"
"No, not directly. You saw Oceanus create a body, but he did that by manipulating the Dream of Water. He wasn't in the material world's ocean. The Atlanteans' toy merely alters his narrow window on the world; their ancient forebears simply could not tolerate the idea that another being could know their waters more deeply than they."
"So where do gods come from?"
"The story of the world being created by parts of the bodies of the titans is true, though less literal than some scholars assumed."
"What about the cats?"
"The c-?"
Her neck cranes towards me, her eyes narrowing.
"How do you know about that?"
"I've got all of Venturia's spare researchers studying the Dream's connection to the material world. And I've had multiple encounters with time travellers. It wasn't hard to notice that something was off. And then there's all the internet cat videos."
"Then you should know that I can't know where the cats come in. Perhaps there was a cat with my name and nature who existed at some point or perhaps there was not." She shakes her heads, glaring at the universe. "It vexes me that I will likely never know how it was done."
Eris looks confused.
"Cats. What-? Why do you both know what that is?"
"Make yourself useful and I'll tell you. So gods are supposed to be… What, the titans' emissaries into the material universe?"
"Something like that. For most of them it wasn't a deliberate, purposive decision; it was more an… Interaction between the Dream and the material universe. Heat thrown up by the friction of two surfaces rubbing against each other."
"And that's where you come from."
"More human-like, and less primal. Weaker, but with more direct influence on the material universe. And able to commune with our titanic forebear."
"And the war?"
"We are human enough to hate being under the thumb of another. As we are closer to the Dream than the humans in the material universe, so the Dream is closer to us. Our power was not our own."
Eris sneers. "And some of the chaos-primordials had no sense of self-control."
"If you were different classes of being, how did the war work?"
"A flash of brilliance from Zeus, believe it or not. We were bound to the titans by the magic that made us. But could we not learn to manipulate that link, even reverse it?"
"It sounds like you could."
"And so fell Aether, and so rose Zeus."
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Ngamer11
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That should say 'saw'.
I didn't expect that tidbit of information to come up in this conversation. And apparently Hecate was very surprised that Paul even knew about that. I like how Paul can just catch higher beings off-guard with the information that he holds like this. And now Eris is going to pester both Paul and Hecate until they spill what the heck they're talking about.
Darko
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Remove 'it to'
Well unless she targets people close to Diana, or any civilians during their fights.
Ohh, and she's also enslaving people and turning them into animals.
That's Paul for you.
'They emerge'
Yeah, during the Oceanus fight, OL noticed that Oceanus didn't seem to notice them even if they in front of him.
'created'
Looks like Ahri'ahn could be behind this.
Or maybe his racist attitudes were fairly common back then.
So they are insidious ways the cats can use become powerful again.
'looks'
'forebearer'
BlueMangoAdea
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So Aether is the titan Zeus is using. Not much about him in the myths. The personification of bright upper sky.
Edit: Heck, Aether isn't even a titan in the Greek myths, but neither are Erebos or Tartarus, so...
DAT_NOOB
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Wait wait, is he just baiting her on or is he seriously considering this.
Vice Xarno
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Ok I'm confused did I miss something or forget, or is this something from a DC comic that involves Cats being a primordial species that just devolved to the mesoderm day version. May explain DexStar though
RichardWhereat
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Yours are Zeus' lofty dwelling, endless power too;
of the stars, of the sun, and of the moon you claim a share.
O tamer of all, O fire-breather, O life's spark for every creature,
sublime Ether, best comic element,
radiant, luminous, starlit offspring,
I call upon you and I beseech you to be temperate and clear.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aether_(mythology)
So, the personifications are, some of them, Titans?
of the stars, of the sun, and of the moon you claim a share.
O tamer of all, O fire-breather, O life's spark for every creature,
sublime Ether, best comic element,
radiant, luminous, starlit offspring,
I call upon you and I beseech you to be temperate and clear.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aether_(mythology)
So, the personifications are, some of them, Titans?
Ngamer11
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It's from an issue of Sandman, specifically the story "A Dream of a Thousand Cats".
Tbryan
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Mr Zoat also wrote a chapter about this world.
BlueMangoAdea
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That much was clear when Zoat made Erebos and Tartarus titans.
Darko
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Zoat basically made them all into Titans, even if they were known by different names in the myths.
And while it may be that Aether is the Yitan he's using, I'm getting the feeling that it may have just been some poetic wording from Hecate to describe the Titans side.
It's always difficult to tell with Paul.
Basically in the past giant cats ruled until humans started dreaming of them being small and then they were transformed into what they are now.
Ciber
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Does anyone feel like fishing up the link to that chapter?
Ngamer11
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Tbryan put it in the very post you quoted.
Chojin Patriarch
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And, to be fair, some of the Titans might have cooled off in the millennia since Zeus led the Olympians against them. I mean, guys like Cronus might still be a bit salty, but I doubt he'd speak for all of them.
Since even the most dickish inmate would have had a change of heart after so long. Wonder if he extended that amnesty to Pirithous?
Well, that's a hard counter-offer...
Which might be awkward if they want to live somewhere already occupied. But that could be worked out later.
Especially since no waking death would mean you'd be in that boat if you ever end up there permanently. So self-interest reigns supreme here.
Bit awkward, yes. And Hekate has no guarantees that she'd get paid once he's done, so...
Oh? Do tell...
To be fair, Circe's motivations for antagonising Diana haven't always been so clear over the years.
Because of a prophecy Hekate gave Circe, that said that eventually, someone would be born who caused Circe to regain the soul she paid for power.
Guess who she thinks it is these days?...At least until Circe decides to mess with you to hurt Diana. Though I suspect OL's response would be, "Railgun, load Mage-slayers."
Now, now, OL. Be nice. This is kind of important here, after all.
So, proto-gods. Primal beings, to whom humans are no more than motes of dust.
Ah, magic. So bound in intent and perception. Of course Humans sought to make smaller and more useful things out of big things.
Presumably those Titans who joined the Olympian pantheon are those who learned most easily.
Well, thanks to them for that little bit of stupidity. Which means Kon, wielding Helios' granted powers, was literally the best thing they could have thrown at him.
Yes, we rather gathered that since Erebos lacks, say, giant ribs looming overhead. Hades only knows which end would have been the ass, though.
Oh-ho, another Sandman callback. If you didn't read what Ngamer11 linked, it was a tale from the Dreaming, of a cat who travelled about, telling other cats of a time when they ruled Humanity. But the humans cheated them out of that rulership by collectively dreaming of a world in which they ruled, not cats. And if even one thousand cats dream of the way it was before at once, then it can be so again...
But good luck getting that many cats to do anything together.Well, seems he has something you might want after all.
Probably for the best. You may find you don't like having fur.
Haha. Oh, that's going to vex her for ages.
And that brings a new angle to the whole 'sibling marriage' thing. One with quite a lot less squick.
It's a pretty-sounding idea. I doubt it went so smoothly as she makes it sound. I take it the Titanomachy was a human interpretation of how the Olympians displaced their Titanic forebears.
And one thundering young bravo really hated that?
Not anything so simple as two bunches of big people smacking each other in the face, no doubt.
The 'Upper Sky', eh? That makes sense, then.
An interesting variation of the old myths. And more than a little out of left field. I'm surprised Canis didn't chime in with something about The Source or the Omega Effect, because I am seeing an interesting parallel there. But at least now OL has some idea of how to gain leverage over Zeus. Now he just has to work out how to use that leverage. I don't think this is something he can trust his Atlantean contacts with...