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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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Bigreader said:
How would that be different from every other government?
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People can live without government help. Not easily, but it is possible.

There's also the fact that governments generally have many different people in them with actions and agendas that range from moral and benevolent to immoral and malevolent.

Goa'uld are mostly in the latter two categories.
 
NightmareWarden said:
Paul's… Mammon's ring probably isn't implanted. His outfit may have gloves, it may not. But can he attempt to protect his schizotech ring from curious humans while maintaining this new act?
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Alright. So he can probably prevent them from taking the ring off him while he's pretending to be brain dead. Maybe.

So he's put himself on a position where he's dependent on how persuasive a symbiote can be without a body.

And on being able to convey to people that he's got enough force fields that his symbiote body can wipe the floor with them by projecting force fields without needing a host.
Perhaps claim that that's why it's orange.
 
The ignorance of Earth manufacturing processes is astounding; as well of American Tax code when speaking of "Slaves". But, righteous military indoctrination and all that I guess. Still, Paulmon is in quite a pickle, buuuut, they are trading with him, well, 'parasite him' and likely will put him back after talking with his "Host".
 
Ah, called it. Does Paulmon know about the way the Asgard transfer their own consciousness to cloned bodies ? If so, it would be a pretty good argument to use on the SGC. Though he'll have to "get his body back" first...

Mr Zoat said:
'Elimination of threats to the US and its interests', not helpful. That covers the elimination of literally every weapon in the universe not controlled by the US or its allies. In fact, according to Project for the New American Century, including its allies, as well as economic threats. Technically a car being driven legally that could in theory hit a US citizen is covered. Is there more detail..? No. 'Protection of allies and non-combatants'… So they're taking the position that they need to actively intervene anywhere where anyone fighting could endanger non-combatants. It also means that an ally could start a fight, start losing, and expect the US to fully commit to bailing them out. 'Recovery of US personnel and equipment', there's the Space Hague Invasion Act. Nothing about it being legitimate for us to invade them to take our stargate back.
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Ouch, yes. Not going to spend too much time on this because I don't want to fall afoul of the rules regarding discussing politics, but this kind of reasoning enabled some really shady shit, to use an euphemism, especially in Latin America (United Fruits, anyone ?). No wonder Paulmon is wary of it.
Mr Zoat said:
O'Neil flicks his right hand to the side. "We'd quite like it if you gave up slavery."
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Again, not going to spend too much time on this, but Earth should maybe get its own affairs in order on the slavery front before thinking of emancipating slaves on other planets, otherwise it looks a lot like hypocrisy. Granted, it's already illegal in most places on Earth, but the laws aren't always enforced as much as they should, and contemporary estimates give a number of up to 50 million enslaved people worldwide. To clarify, liberating slaves everywhere in the galaxy should absolutely be done, but it kinda undermines the message when the ones leading the charge still have them at home.
 
NightmareWarden said:
Paul's… Mammon's ring probably isn't implanted. His outfit may have gloves, it may not. But can he attempt to protect his schizotech ring from curious humans while maintaining this new act?
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Wearing jewelry as a sign of status is very common for goa'uld. And for humans.
 
Overall it feels like the SG crew are negotiating in bad faith, trying to somehow shame or intimidate Mammon. Which is farcical considering what he is pretending to be (and what he really is, too). I imagine he expected O'Nelly to ask the 'host body' a few questions and then reintroduce the Goa'uld, but it seems like they're more interested in taking 'him' hostage. Which is a horrible idea. This entire thing has played out horribly. What are they even trying to accomplish by this? Moral grandstanding to their only social and economic contact? The amount of disrespect on display here is astonishing, and the only thing they could accomplish is to shoot themselves in the foot.

Though honestly, part of the blame lays on "Mammon," for going along with this. It's one thing to want to prove a point, but rendering yourself vulnerable in questionably-hostile territory, before people who have an avowed interest in the deaths of your people, is extremely foolish. He's trying to play too smart and he wound all the way around to stupid.
 
He's s just using this time to process what the orange ring stole.
Strategic data and targets.

Pretty smart.
 
Isn't Am-heh going to be orange and glowing? I.e., obviously not a normal goa'uld? Pammon didn't seem to do anything to mask that, and even if he thought the humans wouldn't know the difference, the Jaffa in the room definitely would.
 
I think Paul intented to show his host is a "brain dead clone", but that approach is going to miss fire on him hard because the Tauri have no context to reach that conclusion without him telling them first and even if he does they won't believe him (and pretending to be one will get him stripped of equipment and fucked).

His best approach is the "willing host" that wants his snake back because they work together and the shared memories makes separation problematic, as the Tauri do have a context for that in the against Ra/ToKra and are far more likely to accept that at face value.
 
Mr Zoat said:
Shouldn't he.. wake up?"

Teal'c frowns very slightly. "In every incidence I have seen of a goa'uld abandoning their host, the host either recovers swiftly or dies swiftly."

Carter immediately checks my pulse. "His pulse is weak, but it's there. Breathing too. Sir, I think we should get him to the infirmary."

What?
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Play foolish games get foolish results. You leave urself vulnerable in enemy territory and now you get 'separated' and experimented on.
Wonder what they think of the Orange Lantern symbol? They got Lantern media here? Is there a tradition of Goa'uld tattooing their actual bodies?
 
CTrees said:
Isn't Am-heh going to be orange and glowing? I.e., obviously not a normal goa'uld? Pammon didn't seem to do anything to mask that, and even if he thought the humans wouldn't know the difference, the Jaffa in the room definitely would.
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I guess Paulmon could disguise construct Am-heh by overlaying a hologram of a normal goa'uld on top of it, but since that wasn't mentioned in the text...
 
Rogos said:
Ah, called it. Does Paulmon know about the way the Asgard transfer their own consciousness to cloned bodies ? If so, it would be a pretty good argument to use on the SGC. Though he'll have to "get his body back" first.
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He has all the goauld memories and the asgard have been doing the clone stuff for so long that the process is breaking down and nigh irreversible, probably many thousands of years. I would be surprised if he did not know by now.
 
Doccer said:
?
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Why would there be a symbol on anything but the ring? Lanterns don't have to wear the uniform, and constructs don't have the symbol imprinted on them either.

Oh, just realized. If anyone suspects that 'There is no Ghou'ld here" they can test is with a mild electric shock to disrupt his concentration. Or accidentally do it while trying to 'wake up' the body. Is the construct just going to fizzle out if that happens?
 
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There is only so far you can play devils advocate and just because Bast isn't a full fucking psychopath means nothing for the MANY examples of Goa'uld atrocities. Killing entire populations with viruses, killing off one of your own worlds or at least it's population to keep an invading Goa'uld from gaining anything, killing and conqouring any human population they come across that doesn't believe them gods.

Considering they've seen hosts that have been used for so long, being mentally tortured and traumatized for centuries that they're vegetables means he is a fucking idiot for trying this plan. He has the memories of one of the more sadistic Goa'uld he should KNOW that badly abused hosts minds break leaving them comatose like. Honestly what did Paul think would happen as far as their concerned the human is a hostage. I'm sure Paul is going to try to use this reaction as a way to take the moral high ground which as I said just makes him a fucking idiot.
 
Oglymogly said:
Oh, that is hilarious. This is SG-1, they are both smarter and much dumber than you'll ever expect. And they are 100% on the "Gould are bad, m'kay?" Train. Get ready to pretend to be in a coma for a few hours at least.
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on the contrary, i expect them to already suspect that this Mammon is an impostor. there's the Academic 'you're not a god' discussion, then there's the 'we're calling your bluff, you're not a "god"' discussion. i feel like we were close to the latter.

also, if they throw his 'body' in a CT or MRI, wouldn't they be able to see where the symbiote tunneled into his brain? or, i should say, the lack of a tunnel into the braincase?
 
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Dur'id the Druid said:
Why would there be a symbol on anything but the ring? Lanterns don't have to wear the uniform, and constructs don't have the symbol imprinted on them either.

Oh, just realized. If anyone suspects that 'There is no Ghou'ld here" they can test is with a mild electric shock to disrupt his concentration. Or accidentally do it while trying to 'wake up' the body. Is the construct just going to fizzle out if that happens?
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There is a gould there. He assimilated Amheh.
 
Dur'id the Druid said:
If anyone suspects that 'There is no Ghou'ld here" they can test is with a mild electric shock to disrupt his concentration. Or accidentally do it while trying to 'wake up' the body. Is the construct just going to fizzle out if that happens?
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i was always under the impression that the Construct Lanterns were mostly autonomous within their master's directions, but i could be wrong.
 
BartlettMagic said:
i was always under the impression that the Construct Lanterns were mostly autonomous within their master's directions, but i could be wrong.
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They are independent of the ring until they are damaged beyond repair, at with point they return to the ring that made them, the light fountain/lantern or the honden and wait for enough power to respawn.

They also act within their base instincts and commands from their master (mental commands work too).

As far as the Tauri know Mammon is a glowing orange snake, they are probably aware enough for that to be significant and their spies may have got enough intel to learn Mammon was trapped for centuries on his partially destroyed ship/tomb.

I will invoke earlier fic references and mention that Teekl as a construct lantern was very often described as a glowing orange cat, not an obvious hardlight construct ergo right now for the Tauri Mammon is a glowing "snake" in a jar.
 
Why didn't Paul's plan go to plan?

He made his construct symbiote slither away, why would that hamper his body or mind? The assimilated memories aren't linked to the construct are they?
 
What was the point of this demonstration? Paul should know that he can't bluff that the controlling process is beneficial to the host or kills them when they have past hosts who can contradict him. The existence of such a host was quite directly a subject of the prior chapter when he offered to resurrect Dr Jackson's wife.


Wouldn't it be far easier to claim that only the pointlessly evil Goa'uld maintain their hosts minds and the majority of hosts are lobotomized or kept in a lotus eater simulation? The advantage of this is that it couldn't be contradicted by the hosts they have rescued or briefly interacted with after the Goa'uld left as they would be characterized as the rare victims of particularly evil Goa'uld.

He could also further justify the use of hosts by saying his faction takes them from death row prisoners or zealot volunteers. This is a common explanation for stories using a Good! Goa'ul.
 
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I'm expecting some harsh penalties from this besides some words.
Your basically an ambassador who is also trading in some extremely important national security materials that are Needed for the Safety of the Nation and the world.
Wonder what concessions they are willing to give up to keep the goods flowing…..
 
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