Vaermina
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The Tok'ra don't have similar technical expertise.
That's the problem.
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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)
- Thread starter Mr Zoat
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That's the problem.
Bolo
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It's one of those things that I'm sure everyone will either really enjoy both Paul and O'Neill having this great talk/debate with each other Or Paul putting O'Neill in his place for being an Ass unnecessarily while being polite toTeal'c.
crazygrox
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His response is probably:
That's debatable, but I'm fine with other people being agnostic or atheistic about it.
Mr Zoat
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Thta would give the game away. No goa'uld would react well to the shol'va.
ForeverShogo
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Pretty sure they don't really have to declare anything regarding the war against the Goa'uld. I don't really think you could consider them to be party to the Hague Convention, but even then you can be unofficially at war no problem.
In fact, that's basically become the norm now. Since WW2 nations very rarely officially declare themselves to be in a state of war. Specifically to get around a lot of the restrictions we're supposed to be under in times of war.
For example, the last time the United States officially declared war was when it entered World War 2. None of the conflicts we've been involved in since then have actually been declared wars, even if they've been called wars.
===
As for the Tok'ra. Well. Not really much to say on them beyond agreeing with the sentiment that they're hilariously incompetent.
In fact, that's basically become the norm now. Since WW2 nations very rarely officially declare themselves to be in a state of war. Specifically to get around a lot of the restrictions we're supposed to be under in times of war.
For example, the last time the United States officially declared war was when it entered World War 2. None of the conflicts we've been involved in since then have actually been declared wars, even if they've been called wars.
===
As for the Tok'ra. Well. Not really much to say on them beyond agreeing with the sentiment that they're hilariously incompetent.
Bolo
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That depends on perspective doesn't?
Both parties have to maintain a certain level of Respect for the other to function. If it's just slavery, death, and dishonesty all around then it all falls apart.
If Teal'c has valid reasons/grievance's then it can be said he did the best he could.
How far Paul wants to push the party lines is up to him but being Cold while being polite is still available.
Or just pushing buttons and pointing out how he Abandoned his family with his lack of foresight.
Both parties have to maintain a certain level of Respect for the other to function. If it's just slavery, death, and dishonesty all around then it all falls apart.
If Teal'c has valid reasons/grievance's then it can be said he did the best he could.
How far Paul wants to push the party lines is up to him but being Cold while being polite is still available.
Or just pushing buttons and pointing out how he Abandoned his family with his lack of foresight.
Vaermina
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The funny thing is they actually aren't.
Egeria just held back the majority of her knowledge when she birthed them to keep them from going the way of the Goa'uld.
Duke Long
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'generation'?
Jiro
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They're allied with the Tok'ra. The Tok'ra are the same species. So he already knows they're not trying to genocide the entire species. Although he might argue that the Goa'uld and Tok'ra are separate races of the same species and they're trying to genocide the Goa'uld race.
Mr Zoat
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Thank you, corrected.
Vaermina
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I don't think he knows that they're allied with the Tok'ra.
Jiro
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He at least knows that they've heard of them and are concealing it. And it's a logical assumption that they don't want to kill the Tok'ra.
Vaermina
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Wouldn't the logical assumption be that Teal'c mentioned the Tok'ra during a debriefing?
Matt Harris
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They never said this in the show, but I always figured the Gou'ald were another screwed up Ancient experiment as an attempt to deal with the plague and attempt to make the hosts immortal. No evidence though.
Starring (part 18)
Mr Zoat
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9th October 1999
13:18 MDT
"Are you seriously doing good-soldier bad-soldier? Because if so I've got tens of thousands of years of memories of-."
Teal'c sits down one table away from us, staring at me challengingly.
"Interrogation, and I thought when the shol'va wasn't in the room during negotiations that was because you had the sense to realise that would be unproductive." I make the expected expression of distaste, grudgingly glancing at him before returning my attention to O'Neil.
"For me to betray a god they would have to be a god."
Now I turn my body towards him, meeting his eyes directly.
"Tell that to the jaffa who served under you who you shot in the back during your betrayal." I get up and walk across the room until I'm standing opposite him with the table between us. "Do you remember their names? Their faces? You must have trained with them, served with them for years. Their families? Your wife and son lived in that area, didn't they? Kill any family friends? No regrets there, murdering men who trusted you, you miserable backstabbing shol'va?"
I let my eyes flare, though his face remains impassive.
"I regret that I could not turn them away from the cause of the false gods."
O'Neil follows me over, sitting sideways on the seat next to me. It seems that they've been authorised to put me under a little pressure and see how I react. Alright, not unreasonable.
"And what being above us would you worship in our place?"
"I would not. I would have the jaffa stand on our own."
"You literally can't. You have one of us in your body now. Without us you die in a few hours, as we intended when we raised the jaffa up to be our most favoured servants."
"When you send us to die by the thousands for the sake of your vanity, it does not feel like we are being favoured."
"Try living like a human and then compare the two existences." I snort. "And I note that you say nothing of the fate of the humans living under goa'uld. Are they not relevant to you, shol'va? Do you consider them beneath you, as we goa'uld taught you they are? Do you believe yourself to be a warrior by divine providence?"
"No."
I allow my eyes to dim. "Then what's the plan? How do you intend to be free of us?"
"In each jaffa settlement we will have a pool where a goa'uld queen exists to breed prim'ta, who will be discarded when they reach maturity. We will use you as you use us."
"We make you our most favoured servants, and you will make our children your slaves. It is almost a shame that you haven't used your time away from Lord Apophis to learn actual morals."
His face hardens ever so slightly.
"And in answer to your question, Colonel O'Neil, as far as I'm concerned 'god' is the label applied to us by your ancestors. If you want to apply another one now, I won't be offended."
"I like goold."
"Then I shall call you 'Jon On'el', because I can be just as petty-" Major Carter marches back into the canteen, a thin binder in hand. "-as… You?"
She puts it down in front of me. There's a State Department seal on the cover, and the title… 'Opinion of the Office of the Attorney General on Off-World Warfare'.
O'Neil looks at her. "Carter?"
"He asked why we were fighting them, sir. It's not classified. I checked."
Hopefully this one did a little better than Bush's 'torture is totally legal, guys' Attorney General. I open it-. Hague Convention, there we go. Flip through a few pages-.
'Elimination of threats to the US and its interests', not helpful. That covers the elimination of literally every weapon in the universe not controlled by the US or its allies. In fact, according to Project for the New American Century, including its allies, as well as economic threats. Technically a car being driven legally that could in theory hit a US citizen is covered. Is there more detail..? No. 'Protection of allies and non-combatants'… So they're taking the position that they need to actively intervene anywhere where anyone fighting could endanger non-combatants. It also means that an ally could start a fight, start losing, and expect the US to fully commit to bailing them out. 'Recovery of US personnel and equipment', there's the Space Hague Invasion Act. Nothing about it being legitimate for us to invade them to take our stargate back.
I shake my head. "This is a terribly drafted legal opinion. Was your Attorney General not fully briefed, or were they instructed to give you loosely-worded legal cover for anything you felt like doing?"
O'Neil looks unmoved. "Isn't that his.. job?"
"Put it this way. If the System Lords wanted to surrender tomorrow, how does this-" I tap the page. "-tell them what that involves? What are your concrete demands? If your enemy doesn't know what you're fighting for, they can't give it to you. Honestly, we have better documents than this."
Or we did, until Ra died. Now the interstellar order has rather fallen apart, without a top level power to stamp on flagrant breaches of protocol. Bastet would enforce treaties between her underlords but that's the most I've got.
O'Neil flicks his right hand to the side. "We'd quite like it if you gave up slavery."
"I don't own any slaves. Slavery is actually illegal in Bastet's domain."
"Uh-huh."
"Yuh-huh." I raise my right hand and create a full copy of Bastet's Maat Code, putting it on the table. "There you go. Most places have a primary industry and it would be difficult for a person born there to work anywhere else, but they're not property. They get paid and have protection under the law."
O'Neil raises his right hand as Teal'c takes the book. He extends his right index finger and moves it towards me, stopping with it an inch from my forehead.
"You got one slave right there."
"I-. Ooh, you want to talk to my host." I shrug. "Okay. Just a moment."
I create a large vase and fill it with water, then create a pillow on the table in front of me and take a seat before leaning forwards and resting my head on it. I turn my head to the side so that my mouth is facing the vase.
"Just stick me back in when you're done."
O'Neil looks at Carter in confusion while Teal'c looks on impassively. Right. Mask brain activity, minimise heartbeat and breathing while perceiving the world through Am-heh who climbs out of my mouth and slivers towards the jar before climbing into it and coiling up in the bottom to watch me.
They look cautiously at Am-heh for a moment, then give my body their full attention as they wait for the 'host' to wake up.
Naturally, nothing happens.
After a moment, O'Neil pokes me.
"Sir, I wouldn't-."
"Shouldn't he.. wake up?"
Teal'c frowns very slightly. "In every incidence I have seen of a goa'uld abandoning their host, the host either recovers swiftly or dies swiftly."
Carter immediately checks my pulse. "His pulse is weak, but it's there. Breathing too. Sir, I think we should get him to the infirmary."
What?
13:18 MDT
"Are you seriously doing good-soldier bad-soldier? Because if so I've got tens of thousands of years of memories of-."
Teal'c sits down one table away from us, staring at me challengingly.
"Interrogation, and I thought when the shol'va wasn't in the room during negotiations that was because you had the sense to realise that would be unproductive." I make the expected expression of distaste, grudgingly glancing at him before returning my attention to O'Neil.
"For me to betray a god they would have to be a god."
Now I turn my body towards him, meeting his eyes directly.
"Tell that to the jaffa who served under you who you shot in the back during your betrayal." I get up and walk across the room until I'm standing opposite him with the table between us. "Do you remember their names? Their faces? You must have trained with them, served with them for years. Their families? Your wife and son lived in that area, didn't they? Kill any family friends? No regrets there, murdering men who trusted you, you miserable backstabbing shol'va?"
I let my eyes flare, though his face remains impassive.
"I regret that I could not turn them away from the cause of the false gods."
O'Neil follows me over, sitting sideways on the seat next to me. It seems that they've been authorised to put me under a little pressure and see how I react. Alright, not unreasonable.
"And what being above us would you worship in our place?"
"I would not. I would have the jaffa stand on our own."
"You literally can't. You have one of us in your body now. Without us you die in a few hours, as we intended when we raised the jaffa up to be our most favoured servants."
"When you send us to die by the thousands for the sake of your vanity, it does not feel like we are being favoured."
"Try living like a human and then compare the two existences." I snort. "And I note that you say nothing of the fate of the humans living under goa'uld. Are they not relevant to you, shol'va? Do you consider them beneath you, as we goa'uld taught you they are? Do you believe yourself to be a warrior by divine providence?"
"No."
I allow my eyes to dim. "Then what's the plan? How do you intend to be free of us?"
"In each jaffa settlement we will have a pool where a goa'uld queen exists to breed prim'ta, who will be discarded when they reach maturity. We will use you as you use us."
"We make you our most favoured servants, and you will make our children your slaves. It is almost a shame that you haven't used your time away from Lord Apophis to learn actual morals."
His face hardens ever so slightly.
"And in answer to your question, Colonel O'Neil, as far as I'm concerned 'god' is the label applied to us by your ancestors. If you want to apply another one now, I won't be offended."
"I like goold."
"Then I shall call you 'Jon On'el', because I can be just as petty-" Major Carter marches back into the canteen, a thin binder in hand. "-as… You?"
She puts it down in front of me. There's a State Department seal on the cover, and the title… 'Opinion of the Office of the Attorney General on Off-World Warfare'.
O'Neil looks at her. "Carter?"
"He asked why we were fighting them, sir. It's not classified. I checked."
Hopefully this one did a little better than Bush's 'torture is totally legal, guys' Attorney General. I open it-. Hague Convention, there we go. Flip through a few pages-.
'Elimination of threats to the US and its interests', not helpful. That covers the elimination of literally every weapon in the universe not controlled by the US or its allies. In fact, according to Project for the New American Century, including its allies, as well as economic threats. Technically a car being driven legally that could in theory hit a US citizen is covered. Is there more detail..? No. 'Protection of allies and non-combatants'… So they're taking the position that they need to actively intervene anywhere where anyone fighting could endanger non-combatants. It also means that an ally could start a fight, start losing, and expect the US to fully commit to bailing them out. 'Recovery of US personnel and equipment', there's the Space Hague Invasion Act. Nothing about it being legitimate for us to invade them to take our stargate back.
I shake my head. "This is a terribly drafted legal opinion. Was your Attorney General not fully briefed, or were they instructed to give you loosely-worded legal cover for anything you felt like doing?"
O'Neil looks unmoved. "Isn't that his.. job?"
"Put it this way. If the System Lords wanted to surrender tomorrow, how does this-" I tap the page. "-tell them what that involves? What are your concrete demands? If your enemy doesn't know what you're fighting for, they can't give it to you. Honestly, we have better documents than this."
Or we did, until Ra died. Now the interstellar order has rather fallen apart, without a top level power to stamp on flagrant breaches of protocol. Bastet would enforce treaties between her underlords but that's the most I've got.
O'Neil flicks his right hand to the side. "We'd quite like it if you gave up slavery."
"I don't own any slaves. Slavery is actually illegal in Bastet's domain."
"Uh-huh."
"Yuh-huh." I raise my right hand and create a full copy of Bastet's Maat Code, putting it on the table. "There you go. Most places have a primary industry and it would be difficult for a person born there to work anywhere else, but they're not property. They get paid and have protection under the law."
O'Neil raises his right hand as Teal'c takes the book. He extends his right index finger and moves it towards me, stopping with it an inch from my forehead.
"You got one slave right there."
"I-. Ooh, you want to talk to my host." I shrug. "Okay. Just a moment."
I create a large vase and fill it with water, then create a pillow on the table in front of me and take a seat before leaning forwards and resting my head on it. I turn my head to the side so that my mouth is facing the vase.
"Just stick me back in when you're done."
O'Neil looks at Carter in confusion while Teal'c looks on impassively. Right. Mask brain activity, minimise heartbeat and breathing while perceiving the world through Am-heh who climbs out of my mouth and slivers towards the jar before climbing into it and coiling up in the bottom to watch me.
They look cautiously at Am-heh for a moment, then give my body their full attention as they wait for the 'host' to wake up.
Naturally, nothing happens.
After a moment, O'Neil pokes me.
"Sir, I wouldn't-."
"Shouldn't he.. wake up?"
Teal'c frowns very slightly. "In every incidence I have seen of a goa'uld abandoning their host, the host either recovers swiftly or dies swiftly."
Carter immediately checks my pulse. "His pulse is weak, but it's there. Breathing too. Sir, I think we should get him to the infirmary."
What?
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Whenever Possible
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The Alterans would contest this characterization.
Mr Zoat
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They are free to do so in person.
Oglymogly
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Oh, that is hilarious. This is SG-1, they are both smarter and much dumber than you'll ever expect. And they are 100% on the "Gould are bad, m'kay?" Train. Get ready to pretend to be in a coma for a few hours at least.
Darko
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I mean, what did you expect would happen?
That they'd just stick your supposed slave master back into your body after he left just because you told them to.
Now I can't help but imagine what happens next.
Paul: Wait! Wait! Wait! I can expla-OW! WHY DID YOU PUNCH ME!?
Jack: Your startled me!
Darko
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Humans are technically the Alterans heirs, so they probably have a higher claim to it.
That's because that train is practically always on schedule.
Vaermina
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So no disguising or hiding the ring at all. Guess that answers that.
Also, how did they not notice the symbiot was glowing transparent and orange?
Descendants not heirs, and recently too. O'neill and Shephard are only eight generations removed from an Ancient.
SotF
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It is explained in the Living Gods rpg book, it's a rather rare thing that you could tell if one was a queen during their incubation/growth period easily, and technically from birth since it's a genetic thing. It's also a relatively rare thing in the first place, though larval goauld can sense the difference shortly after birth, but other than a goa'uld getting in the tank with them, they wouldn't be able to tell.
However, queens grow larger than the rest of the species and it becomes apparent to those who pay attention and can point it out...
Queens are both a potential boon and threat to the System Lords since they have potential for boosting their forces, but you need to deal with the potential loyalty of any offspring there, and Ra had segregated the Queens from the rest so that he could dole out symbiotes "at random" to the system lords as a means of control...though there were a few that gained power in their own way or who had deceived others about their status.
The thing with the children there is an adaptation option, if the Goa'uld was bred from a queen that had been hosted in the species (even a few generations back) they have an instinctive knowledge about how to take the host, otherwise, as with the feral/primitive/wild Goa'uld encountered, there is a large chance of the attempting "blending' ending in death for both parties. It's one of the reasons why Goa'uld rarely jump into new species.
Darko
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Well Jack said that Mammon's body was his supposed slave, and Paul tried to prove him wrong, probably by pretending to wake up from the Goa'uld possession.
It did not go as planned.
DonLyn
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My guess would be the "My host is a mindless clone" stratagem.
Chojin Patriarch
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Yes, sitting a distance away and staring daggers isn't confrontational at all, Teal'c.
For a former First, you're being surprisingly undiplomatic right now, assumed not-enemy or not.Heh. Paulmon meeting aggression with aggression. Well, passive-aggression, anyway.
...That is a very good point. He turned kind of quick after meeting SG-1, so his rebellion was either very spur of the moment, or it had been building for a long time. Which taints all of his interactions with his fellow jaffa...
Note that he doesn't answer any of Paulmon's other questions...
Keeping in mind that jaffa not under a System lord's control is an implicit threat, at least in the eyes of the Goa'uld...
...Wait, is Teal'c basically the jaffa equivalent of an atheist?
Or at least the popular stereotype of a shortsightedly militant one.And to be fair, it'd be easy for those who drank the kool-aid to believe that, given the augmentations the symbiote gives them.
But seriously, how much did he plan any of this rebellion out?
And good luck getting Queens who would agree to that duty. Because they are not idiots, even without hosts.
Admittedly, there are plenty of names he could pick. Some of which might be decidedly unfriendly.
...Huh, that was quick. Did she...
...Huh, she actually did look it up.
Let me guess, she wanted to win the sort-of debate about this?
So, absurdly vague, permissive and open-ended. About what I expected, really.
...Let's not get into that sort of thing, shall we?
And I expect there were cleverly-hidden clauses that would allow Ra to subvert, punish or simply dismiss an uppity underling with little difficulty.
And that's an amusing angle to take. Did the SGC just assume all the Goa'uld kept their servants as slaves outright, based on Ra and his interaction with Abydos?
I hope he at least kept the glow to a minimum there. Wonder what the team thinks of that display...
Boy, is his face going to be red.
Wow, he is really committing to the whole 'Goa'uld' act.
Yeah, that's got to be surprising to them. A System Lord's underling 'willingly' disconnecting from their host, especially under such hostile circumstances?
So, making the point that the 'slave' is
They'd probably prefer a host with a conscious mind and memories to supplement their own, but it'd be a more humane method, especially if the clone is ethically flash-grown as blank slates by Asgardians or something.What are they expecting, a berserker rampage?
Well, time for Paulmon to sit up and play 'confused but willing partner'...
...Or we can go with the comic overreaction and see how far they're willing to play this out.
What's the bet he ends up in their infirmary with all the usual life-support tubes shoved in him, while they haul the Goa'uld Construct lantern off to poke with needles so they can work out why it's glowing orange? Because that is probably exactly what they'd do, I suspect. Meaning Paulmon will have to play the 'oddly powerful magic symbiote' card or reveal that no, it's not a live goa'uld and he's completely human.
Either way, Hilarity will ensue, no doubt...
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crazygrox
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???
He perhaps didn't think this through.
Or somehow believed the 'nothing of the host survives' propaganda somehow.
At this point he needs the snake to start floating and talking, or he needs to start lying his ass off, say he's a custom designed clone grown to have the same personality as the gould and frankly it's irritating existing without most of his memories.
edit: or? did he actually render his original body brain dead by accident? while accidentally transferring his consciousness into a construct?
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Darko
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Yes, sitting a distance away and staring daggers isn't confrontational at all, Teal'c.
Teal'c was never a diplomat.
First Prime is basically the leader of an army, not a politician.
I'm guessing it's been building for a long time.
What with his history with Cronus, and seeing Apophis being nothing more than a power hungry lunatic, along with other Goa'uld.
If they threaten them then they may do it to survive.
It's not just Ra.
There's also Apophis, the Intel they got from Teal'c and their interactions with other Goa'uld.
If that's what he's trying to do then that's not a great selling point.
Why would they want to keep the scenario where people are dependant on sociopathic parasites to continue?
Goa'uld slave hosts are probably extremely traumatized, so a berserker rampage is an actual possibility.