With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Vaermina]

i know, i was being facetious by treating naquadah as if it had the properties of eazo. what i meant about the technobabble bit is that they went from having a team of maybe 50 scientists looking at magic space rocks with the special property that they generate electricity and somehow built a dozen starships the size of aircraft carriers in half as many years while hiding it from the public and presumably the private sector too.

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There was a literal paper trail for the Prometheus's construction. It was plot point and everything.

And pretty much every bit of tech on it was alien designed. The generators? Alien designed. The sublight engines? Purchased from Aliens. The Hyperdrive? Salvaged from an Alkesh, and then new a new one was given to them by the Asgard. Shields? Asgard. Sensors? Asgard. Communications? Asgard. Rings? Salvaged from Goa'uld stuff.

 

[Coltsguy]

I'm sad that I can only like this chapter once otherwise I would be setting up an auto-clicker to feed it likes. His O'Neil is perfectly on point because you know that a bit of that animosity is from Pammon bringing up his dead son for any reason.

 

[Celtic Spartan]

There was a literal paper trail for the Prometheus's construction. It was plot point and everything.

And pretty much every bit of tech on it was alien designed. The generators? Alien designed. The sublight engines? Purchased from Aliens. The Hyperdrive? Salvaged from an Alkesh, and then new a new one was given to them by the Asgard. Shields? Asgard. Sensors? Asgard. Communications? Asgard. Rings? Salvaged from Goa'uld stuff.

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the only thing i remember about Prometheus is that they had to ditch the hyperdrive cause the naquadria they used to power it was unstable ...or was that the power core? also i notice you didn't comment on the 12 or so 304s the tau'ri built.

 

[Duke Long]

Naquada traded with Mammon make up about half of what we get now.

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'makes'?

 

[Mr Zoat]

"Tok'ra"

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'Ra' is a name.

And Goa'uld raid each other's territories and capture slaves.

They could have just assumed that you got your supposed host body from another planet.

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They know that he's been out of action for a long time, and they've heard his explanation as to why. They can be pretty sure that he hasn't been raiding anyone.

Selmak was able to infiltrate Yu's court and no one commented that his host didn't match the ethnicity of everyone else in the place.

And when Daniel went to the summit, none of the System Lords seemed suspicious about the way Daniel looked.

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That's because of the goa'uld roofie chemical.

Wonder how much of an honor they consider it after being stuck in their bodies for centuries.

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The only former host we see like that is Apophis's host, and he was a bit out of it. Probably not.

i know, i was being facetious by treating naquadah as if it had the properties of eazo. what i meant about the technobabble bit is that they went from having a team of maybe 50 scientists looking at magic space rocks with the special property that they generate electricity and somehow built a dozen starships the size of aircraft carriers in half as many years while hiding it from the public and presumably the private sector too.

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It came up that while they compartmentalise what they share with the private sector, they are using it. They murder a journalist in series 1 who learned the truth and later on disappeared an industrialist who cloned an asgard.

'makes'?

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Thank you, corrected.

 

[jasonh23761]

Putting captive enemies on display contravenes the Geneva Conventions and putting trading partners on display gets your prices jacked up.

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So this actually builds off of an interesting legal and ethical quandary that you brought up yesterday in regards to SGC's goals. I'll do my best to give rule 8 a clear margin.

At this point in time unless I'm mistaken, SGC is an American program that has not yet gone international, except for maybe Canada given the NORAD colocation. Anywho, SGC is effectively an black operations program where special mission units conduct reconnaissance and offensive operations off world. Presumably given the involvement of the President and Senators I vaguely remember, there is some sort of Congressional and Executive oversight, otherwise the Air Force is engaging in unauthorized kinetic actions against foreign nations without permission.

Take Mammon as the example, is he a foreign dignitary? An international merchant who exists in the space between nations? Is he an enemy combatant who has legally surrendered to the SGC in this instance? Is he effectively a civilian? There needs to be a legal framework for how to deal with him, otherwise it runs into massive problems. I know shows like to forget but governments do have precedents and procedures that can be adopted. State Department doesn't just create legal coverage, they create frameworks that are used to justify actions to a legal standard and provide guidance to units in the field, whether those be military, intelligence or otherwise. They aren't always on the same page but at the very least, the DoD legal counsel, the US Attorney General and the State Department legal counsel should have sat down and hashed this all out, then presented it for approval through their respective chains before being presented to the appropriate Congressional and Senatorial oversight committees.

Otherwise, you end up with the "unlawful combatant" and "unlawful combatant detainee" situations and I'm not touching that debate with a 10 foot pole.

 

[WereDragon]

It's always nice to see Paul or a version of him call someone out for their stupidity or shortsightedness. I also can't wait to see their reactions when they eventually learn that Paul is spouting complete BS and copying all their data while doing this song and dance.

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He got all their data in the first few seconds he was on-planet. The song and dance is him trying to turn a hostile faction into a non-hostile faction.

 

[Enochi]

....I all the sudden want to see the Goa'uld and Yeerks fight and/or compare notes.

 

[Darko]

That's because of the goa'uld roofie chemical.

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Which only Yu and Osiris were injected with, not the other System Lords.

And it may have been very difficult for Selmak to inject everyone he met on Yu's world, so it's likely that his hosts appearance did not raise too many questions.

Ra' is a name.

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Yeah, but in the series the only spelling we see is "Tok'ra"

They know that he's been out of action for a long time, and they've heard his explanation as to why. They can be pretty sure that he hasn't been raiding anyone.

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Taking a host from another planet is still a logical thought.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Which only Yu and Osiris were injected with, not the other System Lords.

And it may have been very difficult for Selmak to inject everyone he met on Yu's world, so it's likely that his hosts appearance did not raise too many questions.

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He wouldn't need to inject anyone else. No one is going to argue with Yu.

 

[Doccer]

Wonder how much of an honor they consider it after being stuck in their bodies for centuries.

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Still an honor. Daniel invaded a VERY private conference between System Lords and let his inner Good Guy out for too long to try and persuade another (I forgot the word for a human assistant that is supposed to act as an emergency host) into seeing their Gods as parasites. He revealed he was aware they aren't what they appear but still can't wait to be a Host because then he'll stand at the very top of their society.
TD;LR
Still an honor.

Surprised he didn't also have him twine his primary tentacles together like a man twiddling his thumbs while he waits. For the laughs, of course.

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Kinda hoping he makes the little bugger give a big cheeky grin like a cartoon character.

Surprised Paulmon didn't have it hiss at him, but that might be pushing his luck.

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Or smack it's lips together in a approximation of a kiss.

That's because of the goa'uld roofie chemical.

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Does Paulmmon here still have his accent?

 

[Chaoswind]

Cloned it. It doesn't have any higher reasoning functions of its own and it never did. The brain lights up when I activate those parts of the brain manually."

There's a very quiet-

"Ohh."

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At this point in the timeline Thor has been around.

Actually any lore masters want to nail down the timeline? This is around the time Sokar is active in the war... actually isn't this around the time Sokar attacks the Cheyene mountain complex with a beam weapon or something?

 

[Xmaster3000]

He moues awkwardly. "The book... May, have been a bit much."

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I was right, that was fun! X)

 

[Bolo]

Hopefully we will get a scene with SGC commenting on our friendly Goa'uld and his scary general amount of knowledge about Earth leading to some wild theory's….

 

[Lord Ernest]

Well... that was something. Not gonna lie, I feel Paulmon is a bit lucky that didn't escalate into full blown experimentation; for some reason I have in my head that most people in SGC 'depersonify' the Goa'uld precisely because they're the enemy so anything done to them is valid.

And I don't want to run afoul of Rule 8 but... forgiving one or even a few slaves would be the least of what the US would allow to a trading partner or ally; if Paulmon gives them more Naquada they will start sending him truckloads of weapons and even missiles, just saying.

Do they know of Mammon's previous close association with Ra, by the way? Will SGC share the existence of this partnership, with the Tok'ra for example?

And I'm now also curious about what's going on through everyone's head after this encounter with, unless my memory fails me, their first "friendly" and "generally humble" Goa'uld in forever.

 

[Vaermina]

the only thing i remember about Prometheus is that they had to ditch the hyperdrive cause the naquadria they used to power it was unstable ...or was that the power core? also i notice you didn't comment on the 12 or so 304s the tau'ri built.

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By the year 2010 they had built a grand total of 6, 2 of which were built in locations other then the United States.

At this point in the timeline Thor has been around.

Actually any lore masters want to nail down the timeline? This is around the time Sokar is active in the war... actually isn't this around the time Sokar attacks the Cheyene mountain complex with a beam weapon or something?

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It's a couple days after S3E10.

 

[Chaoswind]

Well... that was something. Not gonna lie, I feel Paulmon is a bit lucky that didn't escalate into full blown experimentation; for some reason I have in my head that most people in SGC 'depersonify' the Goa'uld precisely because they're the enemy so anything done to them is valid.

And I don't want to run afoul of Rule 8 but... forgiving one or even a few slaves would be the least of what the US would allow to a trading partner or ally; if Paulmon gives them more Naquada they will start sending him truckloads of weapons and even missiles, just saying.

Do they know of Mammon's previous close association with Ra, by the way? Will SGC share the existence of this partnership, with the Tok'ra for example?

And I'm now also curious about what's going on through everyone's head after this encounter with, unless my memory fails me, their first "friendly" and "generally humble" Goa'uld in forever.

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I mean the Tok'Ra already know. Mammon was a known quantity and the last anyone hear about him was that he displeased Ra and Ra killed him 200 years ago. Now it turns out he was just buried alive for 200 years under a mountain and was apparently forced to go full Ptah (mad scientist) in there just to survive (maybe that is why he is orange now?).

If anything worth of note is going to be discussed is Paulmon knowledge of Tauri law and his ability to teleport/materialize shit.

However Sokar starting his attack while Paul is in the base would be a great way to include him in the on going plot, also most system lords hate Sokar, so that would be a nice way to tie all the plot lines together.

 

[Vaermina]

If anything worth of note is going to be discussed is Paulmon knowledge of Tauri law and his ability to teleport/materialize shit.

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That second one should be causing him no end of problems.

Because that's Asgard tech as far as anyone else knows.

 

[Darko]

He wouldn't need to inject anyone else. No one is going to argue with Yu.

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And was there any confirmation in the episode that Yu was injected by Selmak?

Do they know of Mammon's previous close association with Ra, by the way

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Teal'c seemed to know a bit.

Wouldn't be surprising if his fate is used as an example of what happens when you displease Ra.

And I'm now also curious about what's going on through everyone's head after this encounter with, unless my memory fails me, their first "friendly" and "generally humble" Goa'uld in forever

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"Humble" is probably not the word they'd use.

"Less arrogant" however is.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Well... that was something. Not gonna lie, I feel Paulmon is a bit lucky that didn't escalate into full blown experimentation; for some reason I have in my head that most people in SGC 'depersonify' the Goa'uld precisely because they're the enemy so anything done to them is valid.

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His body still have its environmental shield, and his consciousness is still there. Destroying the construct lantern would be a bit awkward, but he could just claim 'emergency teleporter, you don't want to know where I keep it'.

And I don't want to run afoul of Rule 8 but... forgiving one or even a few slaves would be the least of what the US would allow to a trading partner or ally; if Paulmon gives them more Naquada they will start sending him truckloads of weapons and even missiles, just saying.

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The point isn't to convince them, it's to remove their ability to claim the moral high ground.

Do they know of Mammon's previous close association with Ra, by the way?

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Yes. That was pretty common knowledge.

Will SGC share the existence of this partnership, with the Tok'ra for example?

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Not if they can possibly help it. Though of course the Tok'Ra already know.

And was there any confirmation in the episode that Yu was injected by Selmak?

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Specifically? No, but that's what they gave Daniel when he needed Yu's trust.

 

[Vaermina]

His body still have its environmental shield, and his consciousness is still there. Destroying the construct lantern would be a bit awkward, but he could just claim 'emergency teleporter, you don't want to know where I keep it'.

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And the SGC's trained doctors didn't notice their hands and tools not coming into contact with skin?

 

[gattsuru]

Still an honor. Daniel invaded a VERY private conference between System Lords and let his inner Good Guy out for too long to try and persuade another (I forgot the word for a human assistant that is supposed to act as an emergency host) into seeing their Gods as parasites. He revealed he was aware they aren't what they appear but still can't wait to be a Host because then he'll stand at the very top of their society.
TD;LR
Still an honor

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"Lo'taur" were the human 'seconds'/emergency hosts, playing a large role in Summit and Last Stand toward the end of season five. Daniel only talked with Ba'al's Lo'taur, and he was somewhat more genre-savvy than the typical goa'uld, but it did at least motion around around it :

Yes. Endless pleasure and the power of the Goa'uld. And the chance to one day ascend to the rank of System Lord.

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Which... uh, may or may not be indicative of just a different misunderstanding. If a goa'uld can experience and share interests with the goa'uld possessing them, it's a different matter than if they're locked in a cage in their own head. We get evidence pointing both directions, and to a large number of points in between.

The SGC have already learned that at least some hosts are basically trapped in their own body: S2E17 talked about it as somewhere between a dream and a nightmare, and 'awakening' as Apophis was dying. And Kendra from the Thor's Hammer planet was able to retain enough knowledge from her time as a host to use a kara kesh, and claimed she was even partly able to trick her goa'uld into going to the Thor's Hammer world. On the other hand, Kawalasky from S1E2 didn't even know what his (a fairly young and poorly integrated) goa'uld did with his body. Skaara was able to overpower Klorel at points, but that almost never comes up with other hosts.

But we don't get much other information (Vala shows up in mid-Season 8 as another ex-host that retained goa'uld knowledge, one rando in Atlantis got goa'uld'd until it was tasered into submission), and SGC has basically none of that, and it's unclear how much difference there might be between one goa'uld and another.

 

[FreeGod]

also most system lords hate Sokar

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Are there any counter examples? I got the impression that they all hated him without exception. It was something of a clear with me* or against me when it came to Sokar.

*Serving me

 

[Whenever Possible]

Paul's right about the document being useless, but its useless as a legalistic shield because SGC probably doesn't need one.

iirc, even the bulk of congress is unaware of the existence of SGC, which means there's no way that Congress has declared a war against the system lords. As such, though in a realistic sense, the USA may be at war due to the initial assassination of Ra or the attack on earth by Apophis, depending on how you want to parse things, they're not "at war" formally, which means they don't need a formal statement of war goals.

As for how this gels with the air force sending armed soldiers through the gate and doing armed soldier things, you could probably kludge together a legalistic justification that other planets all still count as international waters? Idk, the US military will come up with some vague justification about peacekeeping or something similar. Or they'll just put it in the same category as the Frontier Wars. It doesn't really matter for the purposes of domestic lawsuits.

That said, a clear idea of their goals is something they should absolutely have ready, even if it's just "to have the System Lord's recognize the peoples of the Tau'ri as Sovereign and independent to their rule"

 

[GhostKing 666]

also most system lords hate Sokar, so that would be a nice way to tie all the plot lines together.

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Not really, you're thinking of Anubis who is basically Sokar 2.0.

Look, right now nobody knows that Sokar is alive. He took his shot at Ra a few thousand years ago, got smacked down and while everyone thought he was dead, rebuilt on Delmak for a rematch. Only for Ra to die. After that he spent the first two years just watching while his crazy industry built his fleet up even more(and several key R&D projects finished up) before making his comeback, starting with Apophis.

Most System Lords didn't really care about Sokar on a personal level, beyond him being a threat to them and being known as especially sadistic even by System Lord standards. Anubis though is the one who is universally reviled by all other Goa'uld and he's still waiting to make his own reappearance, not showing up until after Apophis dies for the final time(probably because he's more focused on advanced tech and superweapons compared to Sokar's industry, which hamstrings the amount of numbers he's got).

 

[Sockmonkey]

One thing about the Tok'ra: They weren't incompetent. Their limited results were due to their small numbers.
Not using the sarcophagus limited the number of hosts, and lack of a symbiote queen limited the number of symbiotes.
They were limited to things like sabotage and counterintelligence because they lacked the manpower to actually fight.

 

[Vaermina]

One thing about the Tok'ra: They weren't incompetent. Their limited results were due to their small numbers.
Not using the sarcophagus limited the number of hosts, and lack of a symbiote queen limited the number of symbiotes.
They were limited to things like sabotage and counterintelligence because they lacked the manpower to actually fight.

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They were also trying to take the Goa'uld down, not take down Goa'uld.

 

[FreeGod]

Look, right now nobody knows that Sokar is alive. He took his shot at Ra a few thousand years ago, got smacked down and while everyone thought he was dead, rebuilt on Delmak for a rematch. Only for Ra to die. After that he spent the first two years just watching while his crazy industry built his fleet up even more(and several key R&D projects finished up) before making his comeback, starting with Apophis.

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I had the impression that he had been building up for the whole 2000 years about preparing for his second shot at Ra. It's why his cloaking tech was so important.

 

[Mr Zoat]

One thing about the Tok'ra: They weren't incompetent. Their limited results were due to their small numbers.
Not using the sarcophagus limited the number of hosts, and lack of a symbiote queen limited the number of symbiotes.
They were limited to things like sabotage and counterintelligence because they lacked the manpower to actually fight.

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The SI's suggestion -thank you Hiver- would have resulted in them not fighting for centuries and thus taking fewer casualties.

 

[Vaermina]

The SI's suggestion -thank you Hiver- would have resulted in them not fighting for centuries and thus taking fewer casualties.

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Well yes, but that suggestion wasn't actually feasible outside of fanfiction where the author can give the Tok'ra capabilities they were never actually shown possessing.