With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Maxx Crowley]

I can't get past the costume. I mean, not that its revealing or skin tight or anything, but... ffs, wear some armor! Not even necessarily heavy and bullet resistant kevlar or W/E; stuff like impact/skid resistant biker suits or that gel-padded stunt armor would go a long way for the typical acrobatic hero. And they can always get it elaborately colored and decorated like any other suit.

Wearing skin-tight spandex is the same as hanging a big sign around your neck that reads "I'M SOFT AND SQUISHY, PLEASE BE GENTLE". And Source help you if you're wearing latex. At least you can move in spandex.

Click to shrink...

According to fiction, armor is completely useless. Not only can it not stop even the simplest of cutting/stabbing tools (Something it's actually very, very good at), but it actively weakens you by making you "too slow and clumsy" while someone wearing nothing more than a thong is "quick and nimble". By which they can dodge bullets (despite ONLY being a baseline human) and literally do flips over your "Slow" head (Despite the fact that the time it would take someone to go from standing, to leaping over your head, to landing behind you, would easily give you enough time to reach up and snatch them out of the air).

 

[DAT_NOOB]

Ah jeez..is Paul being influenced mentally by some outside source and going native like that time he became a demon and started thinking like a demon?

Click to shrink...

also might be a wink to grayven

 

[Xmaster3000]

Ah jeez..is Paul being influenced mentally by some outside source and going native like that time he became a demon and started thinking like a demon?

Click to shrink...

No, this is just Paul putting on a show for the audience.

 

[Steelplaza]

"None of you are stupid. I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. You know that the same old scams aren't working. And you're all looking around for the new scam. So let me lay it out for you. Wilson's people are perfectly happy to repeat Connecticut in every state if that's what it takes to win.

Click to shrink...

Wasn't the state Wilson started in Vermont, not Connecticut? I think that was mentioned back in the original Doppleganger story.

Ah, yes, here:

"I don't know if the local supervillains didn't think he'd win, or they tried and it wasn't enough… No way to find out now. Ultraman's people were keeping an eye on things, but it was Vermont and he didn't have any real presence there. I don't know what the others thought of it. Anyway, he didn't quite go full police state but it wasn't far off. A load of ex-military people got hired on as state troopers and everyincident of supervillainy got followed up on with maximum force."

Click to shrink...

EDIT: It's much funnier if it's Vermont, because Vermont is famously a liberal, rural state without anything of national interest going on there, so a politician using it as ground zero for his "fuck supervillains" national movement has the kind of unreality aura we want to see in a mirror universe story.

Also, want to ask about this:

And I'm sure some of you would be as well. But ask yourself this: who profits? If we expended the Syndicate's entire strength, all our secret weapons projects, everything… What do we get? A giant, smouldering wasteland to rule over. Do you want to live in a wasteland? Because I don't."

"I'm not going to live somewhere without running water. I want goddamn running Champagne! Who profits? It should always be us. And if something doesn't profit us, then we shouldn't be doing it! And right now, the United States of America is far, far too hot for us to operate profitably."

Click to shrink...

Somewhere with running water and "running champagne" doesn't sound much like:

"Pick a failed state, or one run by criminal gangs already, or one where the government might appreciate metahuman muscle in order to solidify its hold on power. Creating a private military company out of the Syndicate's hard cases well outside President Wilson's area of concern. They won't complain too much about the work, and they won't be an immediate threat to America. Plus, if they die in combat, he doesn't have to worry about them at all."

Click to shrink...

Where exactly is OL planning on sending these Syndicate members? I don't think they're going to be interested in going to poor third world countries where they don't speak the language there's not much to steal. They're going to want to go to rich countries, or at least places in poor countries where there is wealth they can steal and extort.

"Someone with superpowers and no moral hang-ups can always make money. So that's what we're going to do: make money. Go places where we can make money, do things that make us money. Over the next few weeks, you're all going to be getting marching orders and shipping out to places where there's money to be made and no US army on every street to stop you. I'm sure you all remember how to take over other people's syndicates and make them work for us, it wasn't all that long ago you did it for the old Management. But if you've got a better idea, come and talk to me about it. People with good ideas could find themselves getting rapid promotion. And if you don't have a better idea, but don't like my idea anyway and are going to piss and moan about having to work for your money, then fuck off. You know where the door is, and if you're really lucky you'll make it five paces before the Justice Underground shoot you dead."

Click to shrink...

This whole idea just seems really questionable as any kind of solution. They aren't all going to go, and President Wilson has made it clear that it's not the level of Syndicate presence in the US that determines his response.

Meanwhile, OL is essentially exporting super-powered society destabilizers to other countries. Let's say Syndicate members go to, I don't know, Poland. They overthrow whatever organized crime there is and undertake a campaign of terror and destruction to extort as much money as they can from anyone in Poland with money. (And yes, I have a feeling Syndicate crime is going to be dramatically worse than the status quo, if only because local law enforcement is so much less prepared to deal with it.) So now the lives of the citizens of Poland are worse off. Is the net benefit to the safety of the world enough to justify sacrificing Polish lives and freedom? And even if it is in some mathematical sense, is it really moral to force the burden on people in another country in this way? Now repeat and multiply by every other country Syndicate members are going to.

Remember, this isn't like the Crime Lodge and New York. Paul isn't advising them to conquer the countries, just become parasites using violence and superpowers to squeeze out as much money as possible.

Still, maybe there's more to this plan that we're not seeing. Incidentally, I was reading through prior chapters and Don Scott made an interesting comment early on:

Mister Scott's eyes twitch for a fraction of a second. Ah, yes, demonstrating disunity before outsiders mildly weakens their position, but that only gets worse if he remonstrates with her. "Honey, you never didlearn to play the long game. Now's the time for keeping out of Wilson's way while he and Luthor finish each other off for us."

Click to shrink...

This is the only time anyone implies that Wilson and Luthor are headed for a violent confrontation. In every other conversation, everybody talks like Luthor is going to play loyal support until "his turn" comes around and he gets in office the legal way. Now the question is, was Scott just saying whatever to try and calm Olympia down, or did he slip here and reveal something that doesn't match the story he wants to build for Orange Lantern later on? I mean, later in the same post he says this:

"And what's Luthor's take on that?"

"Son, if I knew what Lex Luthor was thinking, we wouldn't be having this conversation either. My guess is that he's gunna put up with it for another year." He makes a gesture of appeal. "But I don't know we can keep a lid on things for that long. The New Management is safe, but a lot of the Made Men aren't. And their families sure aren't."

Click to shrink...

Probably the earlier comment was just saying whatever to clam Olympia down, but I do wonder....

 

[Stsword]

Wasn't the state Wilson started in Vermont, not Connecticut? I think that was mentioned back in the original Doppleganger story.

Click to shrink...

Actually I believe that's a mistake, but not for the reason you think it was.

The Super Family, being a bunch with superman level powers, retaliated when Wilson went to war against them, escalating the conflict til the the entire state might as well have been Afghanistan.

While originally that state was Connecticut, I understand Zoat later changed that to Wisconsin.

So that quote wasn't about getting idiots elected, but about the war with the authorities turning their areas into someplace that needs Red Cross to send in international humanitarian aid.

And hence why it shouldn't be a surprise that the "good guys" here have a "I'll destroy the village to save the village" mentality, they already destroyed a state with their Leeroy Jenkins routine.

 

[Vaermina]

Iraq was using Vietnam War era - or older in some cases - equipment in Gulf War 2 and still bogged us down in over a decade of war. Technological advantage is an important aspect in warfare, but in order to truly operate with impunity you have to have a technological advantage equivalent to bows and arrows versus M16s.

Click to shrink...

The Vietnam War was only 30 years before before the 2nd Gulf War.

Here we are talking a country with space forces, energy weapons, killer robots, kryptonian clones, and hover tanks fighting fighting countries that have stuff you would expect to see in real life 2000s.

 

[Chaoswind]

The Vietnam War was only 30 years before before the 2nd Gulf War.

Here we are talking a country with space forces, energy weapons, killer robots, kryptonian clones, and hover tanks fighting fighting countries that have stuff you would expect to see in real life 2000s.

Click to shrink...

Nukes is the name of the game, in a world as fucked up as this one I doubt non proliferation had much of a leg to stand, IE no one in the international community is going to believe a piece of paper will be a worthwhile guarantee and certainly all bets were probably off the moment the US used tactical warheads to deal with a bunch of super criminals, because if the US is willing to nuke itself, then NO ONE is going to believe they would have any moral qualms to not nuke other countries, thus the only defense left is to have nukes and delivery mechanisms of their own, so I would expect everyone stable enough to not be a failed state to have a bunch of nukes of their own by now, with the more advanced delivery mechanisms being constructed as we speak.

 

[Mr Zoat]

5th February
20:56 GMT -5

Raquel -14 stares blearily at me. "Dunno. Duncare. G't… Medicine."

She pulls a hypospray out of her equipment harness, and injects herself. Medicine or 'medicine', I wonder? According to my ring it contains psychoactive substances which are.. moderating the negative effects of what Owlman put her through, though I doubt that some of those compounds are purely medicinal. The effect of the drug isn't immediate, but she starts looking more relaxed almost immediately. I wonder..? How many people associated with the Syndicate are like her, and would gladly walk away if they could get palliative care elsewhere?

"Hey!" The local version of Artemis spots me with Raquel and glares at me. "What do you want?"

"Arrowette, have you seen Talon? I need to talk to him ab-."

"Don't care. Saw him sneaking off with Sai. Went-" She waves her right arm at the stairs. "-that way."

I frown. "Sai didn't work with Owlman's part of the Syndicate-."

Arrowette snorts. "Uh, yeah, I don't think they're talking all that much."

Ugh? Ring, Jason Todd -14 isn't any older than Jason Todd 16, is he?

No. Jason Todd, born 16th August 1999.

Twelve-? I blink. "You.. think-?"

She makes an exhalation of exasperated contempt. "You're just as bad as your 'big brother'. We're supervillains. They wanna go off an' do whatever? Whatever. Following the rules got my Mom stuck in a wheelchair and turned.. my.. Dad into President Wilson's boyfriend who I couldn't pick out of a police line-up. Fuck the rules and fuck you."

"U-uh." No, this is irrelevant. I'll just… Knock. "Does it not strike you as odd, your sister being a Made Man?"

Artemis puts her left arm around Raquel, who instinctively leans into her. "Nah, she's great at this stuff."

"Her.. alter ego was a supervillain on-."

"Yeah well she's not her. We're not just evil versions of you, we're our own people who just happen to be kinda like you." She regards me for a moment, then grins. "Wait, are you banging her?"

"I'm going to go and find T-"

"Hah! You totally are! Guess bizarro-Zorina doesn't put out."

"-alon." I turn away and head for the stairs. "Enjoy the party."

"Don't think Talon likes guys! But you do you! Asshole!"

I walk up the stairs and look around. Shadowcrest -14 is either bigger than its alter ego or they've increased its internal dimensions with magic. Or.. maybe it links seamlessly to other buildings? Don't know, and it's not particularly important anyway. Empathic vision is limited to relatively short range, and I'm not.. seeing what I remember from Talon.

I pick a direction and start walking. Talon is Jason Todd, notable for being kind of a thug, dying, and coming back from the dead as a murderous vigilante when he wasn't a flat-out villain. Our Jason Todd is living in a Wayne Foundation-funded children's home, but… Artemis had a point. Comic Jason Todd ended up as he did for in-character reasons. He was a thug because that's the life he knew. He was trying to get better under Batman's tutelage, and died trying to rescue… Either his mother or a woman he thought was his mother -I don't remember which- from Mr Napier. When he was resurrected he was understandably angry with Batman for leaving the Joker alive, and reached the conclusion that Batman's methods wouldn't work.

Owlman grabbed people off the streets and experimented on them. That doesn't generate the sort of loyalty and gratitude comic-Jason felt for his mentor. Talon probably only stayed on because Owlman controlled his cybernetics. Which creates a very different dynamic. Comic-Jason wanted to please his mentor. Talon wouldn't. Oh, he might accept Owlman's methodology, but he wouldn't accept his ends.

And Jade? Okay, say she's a purely self-interested agent. It could be an opposite of neutral is still neutral thing. Jade 16 joined the Shadows because she knew how to locate them and wanted to learn what they had to teach. And as a result of her upbringing, she didn't have any real hang-ups about killing people. Jade -14? She'd have left home at roughly the same time as the Syndicate got together. So… She'd have known where to find them, her home life was in a similar place…

But Jade 16 did that despite knowing that her father worked with them. And Jade -14 would know where to find… The US military, or… Whoever. Maybe… My own alter ego talked her around somehow? No, she wasn't part of his team, and she was already with the Syndicate before he got here. What motivates her? Well, her father is a hero, which means that however much she dislikes him she wouldn't hate him anything like as much as my Jade hates hers. So she wouldn't reject-.

I step out onto a mezzanine overlooking a library. On the other side I see Sai in full costume walking down the staircase. No.. Talon in evidence.

"Sai!" Her face mask turns my way. "I'm looking for Talon." I float up over the railing and drift towards her. "Do you know where I might find him?"

"I'm not his keeper."

Sounds just like my Jade. "I wasn't implying that you are." I land at the bottom of the stairs. "Artemis just said that you-."

"Surprise!"

Huh?

My kinetic barrier flares into life as a.. female Joker-lookalike slams a mallet into the back of my head to absolutely no effect. I frown at her.

"Yes, that… Was surprising. Doctor Quinzel once hit me with a mallet, but hers was inflatable."

The young woman looks at the mallet. "Would'ja believe that's never happened to me before?"

"I bet you say that to all the boys. Look, have either-?"

I suppose that the poison gas in the flower is a... An evil clown classic. I step into it and grab her with both hands. Rings, remove her equipment and-

Compliance.

-then-.

I recognise her emotional makeup. She's the person who appeared in the Mountain just before Q-Ranger. And she didn't evacuate with us, which means…

"And you're a hero."

She grins in that too-wide Smilex way Mister Napier is wont to do. "I'm not good, I'm just drawn this way."

I scan the area, just catching Sai sprinting down a corridor before the house's magic disrupts things too much. And she won't be running towards Talon. Chasing her is a bad idea.

"Talon's doing something, isn't he?"

"He's suckin' alla the way to the center of a tootsie pop."

"Brand."

She shudders as the sigil appears. Nothing in the files suggests that Talon knows the first thing about magic. Ditto with Sai and whoever this woman is. They can't bring down the wards. Slade's people already have most of the identities of the Syndicate members. Attacking to try and free Dame Carol stopped being worthwhile this morning and I know that she's reported in.

"Take me to Talon."

"You got it, boss man."

She vaults up the stairs and dashes down the corridor, me close at her heels. We take a right, head up a small flight of stairs and through a door…

And see Talon look around as the Justice League shimmers into being in front of him.

 

[Mr Zoat]

While originally that state was Connecticut, I understand Zoat later changed that to Wisconsin.

Click to shrink...

Thank you, corrected.

 

[Slayer Anderson]

And see Talon look around as the Justice League shimmers into being in front of him.

Click to shrink...

Ah, but which Justice League...

Paul's Justice League or the Justice League Animated Universe?

 

[Ganurath]

Hmm. Perhaps Talon's position on the importance of personal agency extends to others, in a limited capacity?

 

[gustyeagle]

Ah, but which Justice League...

Paul's Justice League or the Justice League Animated Universe?

Click to shrink...

I didn't even think that Justice League Animated Universe was even an option, but that would be amazing.

 

[Queshire]

So, the question of the day: which Justice League is this?

EDIT: Dang, ninja'd

 

[Ngamer11]

Is Talon trying to go good, or just getting rid of the competition before going underground is a better question.

 

[Vaermina]

And Jade? Okay, say she's a purely self-interested agent. It could be an opposite of neutral is still neutral thing. Jade 16 joined the Shadows because she knew how to locate them and wanted to learn what they had to teach. And as a result of her upbringing, she didn't have any real hang-ups about killing people. Jade -14? She'd have left home at roughly the same time as the Syndicate got together. So… She'd have known where to find them, her home life was in a similar place…

Click to shrink...

Slight problem with that logic... She's the crime universe counterpart of Earth-12 not the crime universe counterpart of Earth-16.

So the answer is that Earth-12 Jade is probably just a Hero.

And see Talon look around as the Justice League shimmers into being in front of him.

Click to shrink...

Assuming this isn't an illusion and assuming Zoat doesn't massively nerf them it's going to suck to be Paul in a few minutes.

 

[Chojin Patriarch]

She pulls a hypospray out of her equipment harness, and injects herself. Medicine or 'medicine', I wonder? According to my ring it contains psychoactive substances which are.. moderating the negative effects of what Owlman put her through, though I doubt that some of those compounds are purely medicinal. The effect of the drug isn't immediate, but she starts looking more relaxed almost immediately. I wonder..? How many people associated with the Syndicate are like her, and would gladly walk away if they could get palliative care elsewhere?

Click to shrink...

In her case, she's probably enjoying all the funny colors anyway...

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

Arrowette snorts. "Uh, yeah, I don't think they're talking all that much."

Click to shrink...

Ew...

Twelve-? I blink. "You.. think-?"

Click to shrink...

Double-Ew.

She makes an exhalation of exasperated contempt. "You're just as bad as your 'big brother'. We're supervillains. They wanna go off an' do whatever? Whatever. Following the rules got my Mom stuck in a wheelchair and turned.. my.. Dad into President Wilson's boyfriend who I couldn't pick out of a police line-up. Fuck the rules and fuck you."

Click to shrink...

Okay, I'm sure she's got her reasons, but... Damn, tone down the Bitch levels, girl.

"Yeah well she's not her. We're not just evil versions of you, we're our own people who just happen to be kinda like you." She regards me for a moment, then grins. "Wait, are you banging her?"

Click to shrink...

Bitchy yet perceptive. An annoying combination.

Empathic vision is limited to relatively short range, and I'm not. seeing what I remember from Talon.

Click to shrink...

Empathic vision is limited to relatively short range, and I'm not.. seeing what I remember from Talon.

...mother -I don't remember which- from the Mr Napier.

Click to shrink...

Superflous 'the' here.

Owlman grabbed people off the streets and experimented on them. That doesn't generate the sort of loyalty and gratitude comic-Jason felt for his mentor. Talon probably only stayed on because Owlman controlled his cybernetics. Which creates a very different dynamic. Comic-Jason wanted to please his mentor. Talon wouldn't. Oh, he might accept Owlman's methodology, but he wouldn't accept his ends.

Click to shrink...

He'd happily jam a knife in Owlman's heart, if he had a way around the controls...

Jade -14? She'd have left home at roughly the same time as the Syndicate got together. So… She'd have known where to find them, her home life was in a similar place…

Click to shrink...

And if the morality swap applies to the Shadows, she'd find a zen monastery full of martial arts masters devoted to improving mankind...

My kinetic barrier flares into life as a.. female Joker-lookalike slams a mallet into the back of my head to absolutely no effect. I frown at her.

Click to shrink...

Ugh, Joker's Daughter? Then again, the Joker doesn't exist here does he? (except as either Red Hood or some heroic jokester)

"And you're a hero."

Click to shrink...

Fitting...

She grins in that too-wide Smilex way Mister Napier is wont to do. "I'm not good, I'm just drawn this way."

Click to shrink...

Jessica Rabbit you ain't.

I scan the area, just catching Sai sprinting down a corridor before the magic house's disrupts things too much.

Click to shrink...

These two words seem transposed.

"He's stuckin' alla the way to the centre of a tootsies pop."

Click to shrink...

"He's suckin' alla the way to the centre of a tootsies pop."

And see Talon look around as the Justice League shimmers into being in front of him.

Click to shrink...

Hoo boy. Which universe is this lot from then?

Incoming obligatory 'let's you and him fight' pre-teamup situation detected!

 

[Ganurath]

I didn't even think that Justice League Animated Universe was even an option, but that would be amazing.

Click to shrink...

Not as amazing as Grayven's Justice League.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Empathic vision is limited to relatively short range, and I'm not. seeing what I remember from Talon.
Empathic vision is limited to relatively short range, and I'm not.. seeing what I remember from Talon.
...mother -I don't remember which- from the Mr Napier.
Superflous 'the' here.
I scan the area, just catching Sai sprinting down a corridor before the magic house's disrupts things too much.
These two words seem transposed.
"He's stuckin' alla the way to the centre of a tootsies pop."
"He's suckin' alla the way to the centre of a tootsies pop."

Click to shrink...

Thank you, corrected.

 

[RichardWhereat]

Paul is the best supervillain.

 

[Handlewithcare]

I think Talon just wants revenge.

 

[Razorfloss]

talon is going to try and burn this place to ground not giving two-figs about who is collateral damage

 

[Prince Charon]

Although why her step father, who fought by her side in a minimecha, thought that letting her superhero in basically a cheerleader uniform qualifies as a safe hobby before she got the cosmic rod could use some explanation.

Click to shrink...

Before she had the Cosmic Staff, she had a Cosmic Converter Belt, that was used by the original Star-Spangled Kid (who later went by 'Skyman,' before being killed in a way that I won't go into because you can follow the link - though it's slightly more complicated than the current version of the wiki states). So, it's not like she was unprotected.

 

[Buggy123]

Slight problem with that logic... She's the crime universe counterpart of Earth-12 not the crime universe counterpart of Earth-16.

So the answer is that Earth-12 Jade is probably just a Hero.

Click to shrink...

Eh, probably. But Earth-12 seems to share a lot of aspects of Earth-16, including the existence of Young Justice and its roster. There's a good chance that Jade is the same instead of being a hero.

Assuming this isn't an illusion and assuming Zoat doesn't massively nerf them it's going to suck to be Paul in a few minutes.

Click to shrink...

If they didn't fight him when he admitted to committing xenocide, they ain't going to fight him for working with criminals while himself doing almost nothing illegal, for the sake of things like avoiding "retaw si alobe".

 

[Badass6969]

I know it's been awhile since it was posted but where's Part 20 of that Indigo Lantern snip? Because I'm really wondering if any supers blew up on Saul or were extremely baffled that the guy's NOT A FAKE douchebag or has horrible vices

 

[l---erddad---l]

"retaw si alobe"

Click to shrink...

...That would be a terrifyingly inefficient way of killing everybody on Earth. Like, at least cast a spell to turn the White House into Antimatter if you're going that far!

 

[Buggy123]

...That would be a terrifyingly inefficient way of killing everybody on Earth. Like, at least cast a spell to turn the White House into Antimatter if you're going that far!

Click to shrink...

Depends a lot on the limitations, honestly. There are probably a fair few ways to munchkin it, but we'd need to know more details about it.

 

[Vaermina]

Eh, probably. But Earth-12 seems to share a lot of aspects of Earth-16, including the existence of Young Justice and its roster. There's a good chance that Jade is the same instead of being a hero.

Click to shrink...

That would break the one hard rule of the crime verse.

If they didn't fight him when he admitted to committing xenocide, they ain't going to fight him for working with criminals while himself doing almost nothing illegal, for the sake of things like avoiding "retaw si alobe".

Click to shrink...

Wrong Justice League, all signs point to this being the JLAU version.

And that threat? That would just have JLAU Batman pulling a vial of Ebola cure from a pouch on his belt.

 

[Ganurath]

...That would be a terrifyingly inefficient way of killing everybody on Earth. Like, at least cast a spell to turn the White House into Antimatter if you're going that far!

Click to shrink...

I think the effect is intended to be more localized. Such as with, say, "Lla negyxo sag, evael siht ytic!"

Spoken from the outskirts, of course.

 

[Ngamer11]

I've been reading old threads, and I came across a note Mr Zoat put during episode 26 that said Arisia Rrab would appear in the story a few weeks after Zatanna's birthday on 2012, which happened earlier in this episode. Mr Zoat, will we be seeing her soon? I remember you putting a post in SV that had her as a future member of the Team.

 

[Lord Ernest]

Ok, I have to comment because nobody is saying it. This Earth -14? It is not the opposite to the DCAU. This Justice League? It most probably is not the Justice League from the DCAU.

How can you tell? Easy, the Green Lantern is Hal Jordan and I don't remember seeing any Hawkgirl in the movie. In fact, I think the wiki has it categorized under different labels as well. I mean, even the Aquaman is different and it is not just slight changes in the animation.

Besides that, with how Zoat has already modified Earth 16 and also Earth -14, they seem to be a parallel of each other; I mean, there was never any glimpse of any Young Offenders (obviously) but still here they are and they seem to parallel Earth 16 (what with Lamprey, Zorina, Arrowette and now Raquel as well).

On the other hand, maybe the Justice League that just warped in is the Justice League from this Earth, Luthor and/or his pals; I think they call themselves that as well, unless the Illustres calls them Justice Underground (which obviously they are not anymore).