With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Tzeentch]

The Native American magic tradition wasn't up to much, as far as I've been able to tell. But they could use magic. If any were around here then it wouldn't feel like that."

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....You do realize of course that there's more than just ONE singular Native American "Magic Tradition", right? Different tribes, different beliefs, etc, etc.

 

[Queshire]

I'm now imagining Listens-to-Winds from the Dresden Files in here.

 

[Ganurath]

Leonid... Oh, the Russian guy who has the same cape name as Princess Koriand'r.

 

[Gforce1000]

"The Native American magic tradition wasn't up to much,

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....You do realize of course that there's more than just ONE singular Native American "Magic Tradition", right? Different tribes, different beliefs, etc, etc.

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Yeah, "...traditions weren't up to much,..." would probably read better here.

 

[Buggy123]

Yeah, "...traditions weren't up to much,..." would probably read better here.

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....You do realize of course that there's more than just ONE singular Native American "Magic Tradition", right? Different tribes, different beliefs, etc, etc.

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It's possible that there weren't, actually. If the actual magic aspect was pretty minor it might have just been some single shared common element between the different traditions.


edit: Also, this is DC. I wouldn't put it past them to canonically steamroll over all of that and mash up everything into a single vague Native-American-Y tradition.

 

[Handlewithcare]

I would really like to hear what the wider populace thinks about the Afterlife and Gods now. These little talks are great, but hardly representative.

I bet there are already agencies advising you on "what god is right for you?" or buzzfeed articles "10 afterlife versions we now know exist. Number 4 will shock you!"

 

[Chojin Patriarch]

"He's right." Garth nods as we walk through Kennedy's main shopping street. "In the Atlantean military, we send battle mages in first. They deal with any immediate threats, and only then would an archmage or a thaumaturgist enter the area."

Leonid reaches up with his right hand for a moment and then pulls it back, not entirely comfortable with his earpiece. I realised that since few people speak Atlantean Greek and since I somehow ended up with a team where four out of five members do, we can talk pretty much openly about anything without worrying about being overheard.

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Quite the squad make-up. An Atlanean mage, a russian super-soldier, a tech genius, a fallen-angel hybrid and OL. I don't know which of them is weirdest.

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

Beryl smirks. "Did anyone else spot that he was sending a group of teenagers to a place where-"

I grin and nod at her.

"-teenagers keep killing themselves?"

"So if anyone feels like killing themselves, let me know. I can make it quick and painless. Or slow and painful, if you prefer."

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At least most of the team are reasonably well-adjusted. No emo instincts.

Richard got Madagascar where his sneakiness and knowledge of criminal networks will be most useful, Kaldur got Nepal where his cold resistance and ability to manipulate water will be an asset and M'gann got Pakistan, for pretty much the reason I assumed. One magic user per team, one top tier brawler and… Nearly one Lantern per team.

Wonder where we can get another?

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Ooh, ooh, I know: Hope Corgi!

Shades covering my eyes to disguise the glow, I take a look around. Not looking deeply, just… Trying to spot any black. I got a reminder of what suicidal intent looks like from Ms Fuller, but… Not seeing anything like that. I mean, there's some black in the mix, but nothing exceptional.

"There is nothing to be gained by self-murder." People are looking at Linda, but that's mostly because she's a stunningly attractive blonde woman rather them recognising her in her public identity or anything supernatural. "Your soul will endure, and everything you hoped to flee with accompany you to Hell."

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I'm sure it seems like a good idea at the time, though. Depression and other triggers aren't logical or sensible.

Leonid turns the corners of his lips down for a moment. "I am an atheist."

I frown. "Really? You know we can prove objectively that souls and gods and whatnot exist, right? That's how magic works?"

"Then I do not see why some… Spirit should own my soul."

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Man has a point.

"I think of it more like insurance. Sure, you don't need it, but it can make life a lot easier."

Beryl nods. "Or death, in this case."

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As they saw with OL's little adventure over Christmas.

He frowns mildly at her. "What god have you chosen?"

"Nike."

"Really?"

"Best trainers I've ever worn."

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They aren't even pronounced the same! Nigh-key, the sneakers and Nee-kay, the Goddess. Bet that torques her off no end.

Leonid frowns further. "There is a god of shoes?"

"Goddess."

"There is a goddess of shoes?"

"Probably, but Nike is the Hellenistic Goddess of Victory."

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I assume he didn't correct her pronounciation for the laughs?

Beryl nods. "You sold the whole Hellenic pantheon pretty well. Oh, and the higher suicide rates go back for as far as they've got computerised records."

"And what does this goddess do in exchange for your soul?"

"Basically, nothing."

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Better than some religions. (not naming any names, Noriel.)

"Then you are being cheated."

Beryl beams at him. "Thank you."

"What for?"

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Pointing out the inconsistency, I expect?

Linda shakes her head. "Heathens. The disposition of your immortal soul is no matter for joviality."

"I'm not being jovial. Erebos sounds great. And wasn't invaded by demons a few months ago." She glances my way. "Was it?"

"No. As I understand it, demons would find Erebos even harder to exist in than they do the material universe. They're not especially vulnerable to Erebosian magic, but they don't fanatically hate the place either."

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Fascinating. I suppose it's because of The FIrst of the Fallen's influence on Hell as it formed around him.

"And you can just do whatever you want without being stuck in a pod?"

"Hades hasn't said anything to me about putting people in pods. Though if you want to check, you can just go and visit."

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Though Hades might be a bit busy with an influx of fresh alien souls...

"See?" She makes eye contact with Linda. "They do tours. Openness and honesty. That's the sort of thing I look for in a god." And back to me. "Have you met Nike?"

"No. With the Amazons, she effectively subs in for Ares as God of Fighting, because… They won't worship Ares because he's an arsehole." She nods. That's hardly a surprise at this point. "But I've never encountered her directly. Do you want to?"

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One quick trip to her temple on Themyscira...

"I dunno. I think I should actually win some more stuff first. Mm, no real seasonal variation, matches expected changes with the economic climate…"

"So it's deaths added to the base rate, not a flat level of deaths."

"It's more than that. If something was making people more miserable, normal self harm triggers wouldn't make deaths go up by a little, they'd go up by a lot because more people would reach that… Threshold. This looks more like a serial killer."

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Which Word of Zoat has confirmed.

"A serial killer as old as written records. Not.. impossible. Garth?"

He shakes his head. "I haven't felt anyone using magic since we arrived." This close I can dimly see his tattoos glowing under his coat and concealing bandages. "My detection spells aren't infallible, but… So few people in the surface world use magic that the field has a certain untouched feel. This feels like that. I don't think that anyone's used magic around here for a very long time."

"Kind of sad when the old customs get abandoned." He looks at me blankly. "The Native American magic tradition wasn't up to much, as far as I've been able to tell. But they could use magic. If any were around here then it wouldn't feel like that."

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So, the Magic Indian trope could actually have happened here? Whatever indigenous heroes ran around in the Wild West days might actually have had shamanic powers. Hilarious. Wrong region for Manitou Raven, isn't it?

He nods, but doesn't look particularly troubled by the idea. Atlanteans don't generally have a lot of respect for magic users whose knowledge of the subject is without a rigorously taught background in thaumaturgy. You don't get academic respect by throwing theorems at the wall and seeing what sticks.

"Linda, are you getting anything?"

"I have felt no demons or hellish magic since we arrived. Nor angels either."

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Good of her to consider that possibility, at least.

Beryl looks curious. "Do demons do that? I wouldn't have thought-. I know the Catholic Church used to say that committing suicide sent you to Hell, but being mind controlled into doing by a demon isn't the same." And now a little more concerned. "Is it?"

"Would it not be right to judge them on what they have become?"

"No, no it wouldn't."

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And back she slides. Two steps forwards, one step back...

"The Catholic Church took a hard line on suicide because it was the one form of violence it was impossible to do penance for. Since we now know that formal penance isn't necessary but rather just helpful, I doubt that it's a deciding factor. And Noriel? Your Linda's showing."

She bites back whatever her next comment was going to be.

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Still not completely intergrated yet, eh?

"We need more information. Beryl, Leonid, head to wherever Kennedy keeps the written public records that haven't been computerised yet. See if you can find any other statistical anomalies." They nod. "Linda, Garth and I are going to do a tour of local teenage hangouts and popular suicide spots, see if we find anything odd. Contact us in an hour."

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Hoo boy. Estimated time to explosion: 15 minutes.

Ah, walk-and-talk scenes. One of Mr Zoat's specialities, and always entertaining for the interplay. Now, to see what gets dug up...

 

[Mr Zoat]

Pointing out the inconsistency, I expect?

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For saying that her soul is worth more than nothing.

One quick trip to her temple on Themyscira...

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The SI's experience there is very much an outlier.

So, the Magic Indian trope could actually have happened here? Whatever indigenous heroes ran around in the Wild West days might actually have had shamanic powers. Hilarious.

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Yes, but not particularly good ones.

 

[Ardy]

Is anyone else surprisingly interested in this arc? New characters and character interactions, discussion of long term ramifications of previous arcs...

Paul's cyborg-raptor minions for the war games

 

[Massgamer]

"Hades hasn't said anything to me about putting people in pods. Though if you want to check, you can just go and visit."

"See?" She makes eye contact with Linda. "They do tours. Openness and honesty. That's the sort of thing I look for in a god."

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If people could do tours of afterlives before they died things would be much better I think.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

May I ask why?

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Because no one cares about Grayven.

Alright, to be more specific, I don't care about Grayven in the slightest. He's the interludes that get in the way of an interesting story. OL will be in the middle of something enjoyable, and then we have a shot or three of Grayven jerking off, or talking to his growing orphanage of characters I dont' give a shit about. Just a while back we had Grayven having some mini debate with Proto-Anarky.

Big whoop.

Beyond that, if the set up is Para-Paul in conflict, mock or not, with the Justice league (Something that's been teased and talked about since arc one basically), then the pay off god damn well better be Para-Paul vs The Justice league.


Not Freaky friday fuckery with no one's favorite now gray dumbass who has NO history with OL's world, conflicts, interpersonal relationships, or anything else.

To try and explain it in pop terms everyone might get, it's like if you watched the original Star Wars trilogy. You waited a long time for Luke to square off against Vader. Father vs Son, on top of everything else going on. How is this going to go? Luke barely survived last time, and only because Vader didn't want to kill him.

But suddenly, time/space fuckery occurs and the Green Ranger from Power Rangers swaps places with Luke and they throw down.

Now, at least one person in the audience is going to go "Wow! That's awesome!"

Others, who were really into the moment, and really looking forward to watching it play out, are going to go "You Ruined it. You fucked the entire thing up, you stupid fucking fuckers."

 

[Ardy]

Okay yeah but which green power ranger?

OG Tommy from mighty morphin' fighting Vader would kick ass, symbolism be damned

 

[AidanMorgan]

I'm sure something is going to happen here, unless Zoat is deliberately setting that Chekhov brand gun in the living room to be left unfired, but dammit all I can't wait for Paul to play OpFor against the League!

I'm now imagining Listens-to-Winds from the Dresden Files in here.

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"Not going to bind or banish you, old ghost. Just going to kick your ass up between your ears."

One of my favorite lines of all time, right there.

 

[RichardWhereat]

I keep thinking Pennywise. I know it's Sheeda, but I keep coming back to Pennywise.

 

[Aeess]

Didn't a native alchemist create his own kind of speed formula for Max Mercury? The way people talked about the significance of the Danner Formula, this seems like its actually implies a either very developed magic system or at least a very skilled magician among the tribe that gave him the potion.

 

[Mquz]

Yeah... but Grayven's still popular. Some people are interested in him (though fewer than with OL). I mean sure, it's a different story not everyone followed all the way through, but it's still a quality story, that ties in nicely with this story. While a swap might not be the best idea, it could work. Be a bit more interesting if they didn't swap with each other though, but with the other versions of themselves from the short snippets instead.

Wouldn't Paul see Sheeda emotions, if they were on people's necks? Wouldn't there be an additional amount of black? I don't think this is likely to be them.

Also, I'd assume that Nike would be fairly powerful since at least the World Wars - what with the Olympics sort of traditionally being her festival, and all the talk about praying for / to Victory during announcements? And I think I've seen poems where praying to Nike is mentioned.

 

[Mquz]

Didn't a native alchemist create his own kind of speed formula for Max Mercury? The way people talked about the significance of the Danner Formula, this seems like its actually implies a either very developed magic system or at least a very skilled magician among the tribe that gave him the potion.

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Could be he was just experimenting, or could be it's the same type of boost Captain Marvel / that Hindi speedster (in India I think?) has - where a god grants their power (speed in this case) to a follower / champion.

 

[DAT_NOOB]

Because no one cares about Grayven.

Alright, to be more specific, I don't care about Grayven in the slightest. He's the interludes that get in the way of an interesting story. OL will be in the middle of something enjoyable, and then we have a shot or three of Grayven jerking off, or talking to his growing orphanage of characters I dont' give a shit about. Just a while back we had Grayven having some mini debate with Proto-Anarky.

Big whoop.

Beyond that, if the set up is Para-Paul in conflict, mock or not, with the Justice league (Something that's been teased and talked about since arc one basically), then the pay off god damn well better be Para-Paul vs The Justice league.


Not Freaky friday fuckery with no one's favorite now gray dumbass who has NO history with OL's world, conflicts, interpersonal relationships, or anything else.

To try and explain it in pop terms everyone might get, it's like if you watched the original Star Wars trilogy. You waited a long time for Luke to square off against Vader. Father vs Son, on top of everything else going on. How is this going to go? Luke barely survived last time, and only because Vader didn't want to kill him.

But suddenly, time/space fuckery occurs and the Green Ranger from Power Rangers swaps places with Luke and they throw down.

Now, at least one person in the audience is going to go "Wow! That's awesome!"

Others, who were really into the moment, and really looking forward to watching it play out, are going to go "You Ruined it. You fucked the entire thing up, you stupid fucking fuckers."

Click to shrink...

OK, first the perspective "I don't like Grayven, therefore, everyone hates him" is probably a little inflated while not as popular as paul I'd say his he entertains a sizable minority of the sub. Stars crossed and the arc with the Justice lords probably had something to do with that.

And no it'd be more like if Han solo or Leia fought Vader instead of luke not if the green power ranger came out of nowhere, which while not the 'main' teased ending could still have worked (although would have been difficult).

Personally I'd just find it hilarious.
Now excuse me I have an update to read.

 

[Mquz]

OK, first the perspective "I don't like Grayven, therefore, everyone hates him" is probably a little inflated while not as popular as paul I'd say his he entertains a sizable minority of the sub. Stars crossed and the arc with the Justice lords probably had something to do with that.

And no it'd be more like if Han solo or Leia fought Vader instead of luke no if the green power ranger came out of nowhere, which while not the 'main' teased ending could still have worked (although would have been difficult).

Personally I'd just find it hilarious.
Now excuse me I have an update to read.

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I think it's likely a majority of the sub.

 

[DAT_NOOB]

I think it's likely a majority of the sub.

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Yes, but I was trying not to deliberately annoy Max.

 

[Mquz]

I would really like to hear what the wider populace thinks about the Afterlife and Gods now. These little talks are great, but hardly representative.

I bet there are already agencies advising you on "what god is right for you?" or buzzfeed articles "10 afterlife versions we now know exist. Number 4 will shock you!"

Click to shrink...

Scientology? Pastafarianism? Discordianism?
Is it possible to become an immortal divine by reaching enlightenment, as in some Eastern religions? Is this a guide to UNLIMITED POWA?

 

[AidanMorgan]

I think it's likely a majority of the sub.

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We need a poll! But I have no doubt that such a poll will be so unreliable as to be useless!

The great tragedy of statistics, that.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Because no one cares about Grayven.

Alright, to be more specific, I don't care about Grayven in the slightest. He's the interludes that get in the way of an interesting story. OL will be in the middle of something enjoyable, and then we have a shot or three of Grayven jerking off, or talking to his growing orphanage of characters I dont' give a shit about. Just a while back we had Grayven having some mini debate with Proto-Anarky.

Big whoop.

Beyond that, if the set up is Para-Paul in conflict, mock or not, with the Justice league (Something that's been teased and talked about since arc one basically), then the pay off god damn well better be Para-Paul vs The Justice league.


Not Freaky friday fuckery with no one's favorite now gray dumbass who has NO history with OL's world, conflicts, interpersonal relationships, or anything else.

To try and explain it in pop terms everyone might get, it's like if you watched the original Star Wars trilogy. You waited a long time for Luke to square off against Vader. Father vs Son, on top of everything else going on. How is this going to go? Luke barely survived last time, and only because Vader didn't want to kill him.

But suddenly, time/space fuckery occurs and the Green Ranger from Power Rangers swaps places with Luke and they throw down.

Now, at least one person in the audience is going to go "Wow! That's awesome!"

Others, who were really into the moment, and really looking forward to watching it play out, are going to go "You Ruined it. You fucked the entire thing up, you stupid fucking fuckers."

Click to shrink...

If only Disney could hear you now.

Okay yeah but which green power ranger?

OG Tommy from mighty morphin' fighting Vader would kick ass, symbolism be damned

Click to shrink...

You are dead to me.

I keep thinking Pennywise. I know it's Sheeda, but I keep coming back to Pennywise.

Click to shrink...

It's not Pennywise.

OK, first the perspective "I don't like Grayven, therefore, everyone hates him" is probably a little inflated while not as popular as paul I'd say his he entertains a sizable minority of the sub. Stars crossed and the arc with the Justice lords probably had something to do with that.

And no it'd be more like if Han solo or Leia fought Vader instead of luke not if the green power ranger came out of nowhere, which while not the 'main' teased ending could still have worked (although would have been difficult).

Personally I'd just find it hilarious.
Now excuse me I have an update to read.

Click to shrink...

I read a quality Avatar fanfic where Ozai was killed by Sokka.

It made sense from Sokka's point of view.

 

[Mquz]

If the Russians (Looking at Olympics Doping several years ago) could get a quantifiable boost in the Olympics by sacrificing to / praying to Nike, they would do it en masse. In the hypothetical world where magic was real, we would be having "praying scandals", and Russia would be attempting to compete with people who are actually speedsters, but trying to look like they're not.

And now I feel like my brain has gone on a weird, potentially rule-8-able offshoot. Will delete comment if this does violate it.

 

[SotF]

....You do realize of course that there's more than just ONE singular Native American "Magic Tradition", right? Different tribes, different beliefs, etc, etc.

Click to shrink...

With this kind of situation, the singular is probably actually more correct in reference to the situation. They're referring to what is probably a singular tribe in their current area.

 

[TheEyes]

So, the Magic Indian trope could actually have happened here? Whatever indigenous heroes ran around in the Wild West days might actually have had shamanic powers. Hilarious. Wrong region for Manitou Raven, isn't it?

Click to shrink...

Dunno; it's quite possible that all the mages were already dead by then. Smallpox and the other latent plagues that all crossed over at the same time from that seething pile of rot that was Age of Sail Europe probably killed something like 90% of all native Americans.

 

[BR549]

Because no one cares about Grayven.

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'No one' is a really big pair of words, given the number of people, increasing, who have been saying Grayven has become more interesting than Paul.

 

[jonasquinn]

I think it's likely a majority of the sub.

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Yeah... but Grayven's still popular. Some people are interested in him (though fewer than with OL). I mean sure, it's a different story not everyone followed all the way through, but it's still a quality story, that ties in nicely with this story. While a swap might not be the best idea, it could work. Be a bit more interesting if they didn't swap with each other though, but with the other versions of themselves from the short snippets instead.

Wouldn't Paul see Sheeda emotions, if they were on people's necks? Wouldn't there be an additional amount of black? I don't think this is likely to be them.

Also, I'd assume that Nike would be fairly powerful since at least the World Wars - what with the Olympics sort of traditionally being her festival, and all the talk about praying for / to Victory during announcements? And I think I've seen poems where praying to Nike is mentioned.

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Personally I'm also against Paragon and Renegade swapping, mostly because I, and a lot of people like me, don't really read the Renegade segments, partially because I don't really have the time to go back to the beginning and parse through the time when Renegade was just an occasional interlude/omake and not a separate character altogether and partially because I struggle to remember a lot of the names, relationships and events from Paragons side without having to throw in all of Renegades as well. I'd also argue that it is a majority of people that don't read the Renegade segments based purely on the fact that it seems like the average Renegade update gets less likes than the average Paragon update, if not usually by a significant margin

I think the best analogy I can think of to describe it is it's like if you were reading a new Batman storyline and you're really hyped to see Batman confront the Joker or whoever but in the last issue Superman comes in and beats him instead, but you haven't been reading the Superman comics, you barely know who he is, you don't know any of his stories or his relationships with the other characters

Yes the people invested in both storylines will be excited but the just as large, if not larger, group of people that were just reading the Batman story are going to be pissed that they were denied a cool confrontation for a character that they have no investment in

 

[Ace Dreamer]

flee with accompany you

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'will'?

I do like Grayven, but, I tend to take a pretty neutral (or non-exclusive) posture on the 'best' character in stories...

I do wonder if the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists as a god in the DC setting...

 

[Stsword]

Dunno; it's quite possible that all the mages were already dead by then. Smallpox and the other latent plagues that all crossed over at the same time from that seething pile of rot that was Age of Sail Europe probably killed something like 90% of all native Americans.

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I'm sure that didn't help, but according to Freedom Fighters, the problem was that the shamans of the New World had been weakened by just having a Crisis Crossover when the Europeans showed up to ruin the neighborhood.

Four immensely powerful shamans, apparently having used wisdom as their dump stat, bargained with four elemental demonic entities for immortality.

Which the elemental demons granted by possessing the four shamans, so the bat signal went out to deal with four immortals that combined the powers of shamans and demons.

They eventually managed to bury them alive.

Fortunately for DC USA, the immortality deal apparently didn't cover being blown to thin red paste by the Human Bomb.

Or maybe it does, but the options of thin red paste are limited.