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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Reader mode
Flux Casey said:
Didn't... didn't the other one literally just get done explaining what they learned? Suppose she wasn't listening to that part, only the bits that concerned friendship.
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Having somebody say what they've learned is very different from being told what they were taught.

Put simply, when it comes to yourself you are your own least reliable narrator.
 
Mr Zoat said:
Afternoon
Equestria

Celestia takes a step forward, and whatever music-based magic was keeping everyone cooperating appears to fade away.
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Welp, musical number's over, with quite the virtual record scratch.

"Fillies and gentlecolts, could you please give my student and I the room?"

And unlike on Earth, not a single one of them takes the central gangway, with the attendant risk of accidentally pushing against their goddess-queen. They only dare try it if her downward path has already taken them past their row. Otherwise they file towards the sides of the room and then head towards the back. Aside from a couple who teleport, and the lecturer who grabs the books Sunset handed him and heads for the staff entrance. Only those guardsponies Sunset brought with us stick around, and they spread out towards the exists. None try to stay in their places.
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Boy, that's... Concerning. Are they so terrified of her they can't bear her displeasure at all?

Celestia casts a slightly wary eye over me, but otherwise keeps her attention on Sunset. Sunset in turn stares at Celestia like she's trying to bore a hole in her.

"I'm not your student."
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Oh, boy... That's a lot of pent-up anger coming out...

"I can banish you from Canterlot if you like-."

I grin. "You can try." Cock of the Walk Stance
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New God against near-godlike being. Let's hope Canterlot is still standing when all's said and done...

A slight exhalation and a small glance my way, before she returns her attention to Sunset.

"But I don't see how that would help either of us."
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Sounds like she's had a lot of time to think about how things went. Fifteen years, wasn't it? Lots of time for recriminations...

The leftmost guard captain looks at her and she nods. He taps his right hoof on the ground twice, and the spread out guard begin leaving the room to take up position on the far side of the doors. She ignored the Stance! How dare she!
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I don't think she's concerned with you, Grayven. Seeing a new alicorn might have gotten her notice, but she's laser-focused on Sunset right now...

Sunset walks to the front of the stage as Celestia reaches the front of the room. Sunset's head is a little higher than Celestia's in this position, but it's like… Yeah, a child sitting on the top of the stairs and claiming to be taller than their parent. Now… Do I want to involve myself or not?
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And how much will Sunset hate you if you do?

I want Sunset to.. win something here. Putting Celestia off her stride helps with that, because however Sunset feels about Celestia personally 'obey the goddess-queen' has been imprinted onto the entire pony population of Equestria for a thousand years. She can break the conditioning, but that sort of thing generally makes people… Angry. Shouty. Stupid. They build up internal tension before breaking the taboo and then the fact that they've broken it becomes their sole focus.
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Yeah, lots of "Oh god, what did I just do?!" second thoughts, for one thing.

Ah! Perfect! I turn and trot down the steps at the side of the stage, then stand on Celestia's left. She may be the tallest pony on the planet but she's still shorter than me. And far skinnier. I… Read a piece of fan fiction back on Earth Prime where one of the characters is viscerally disgusted by Celestia, thinking of her as some sort of alien monstrosity that real ponies unaccountably allow to lord it over them. And… Yes, I see where he was coming from. Twilight and Luna both have body proportions more like those of the regular ponies than Celestia does.
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Whereas Celestia is a little more Horse-like. Or something a little fey. I can see that reaction...

Anyway, since My Big Pony over there has Equestrian forward-mounted eyes rather than the real horse side-mounted eyes, me lurking in the periphery of her visual field should be just off-putting enough to give Sunset an edge.
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Petty, but not stealing Sunset's thunder. Well chosen.

Sunset looks down at Celestia from the edge of the stage, then turns her head my way.

"Grayven, you can open a portal to anywhere on this planet from Challenger Mountain, right?"

I nod. "Yes, though without Starswirl's mirror we wouldn't transform."
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Good god, imagine the children's reactions...

Sunset turns back to Celestia. "Then it actually doesn't matter if you banish me again. My ritual-" She tosses her head in the direction of the blackboard, though there's next to no chance that Celestia understands what she's written. "-will work just fine anywhere. I don't even have to be in Equestria."

Celestia nods slowly. "I take it that you believe that you've found a way to become an alicorn." I get another small glance. "I'm surprised that you were able to find someone who could help you."
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I suppose she was a little worried after her student leapt into a portal leading who-knows-where...

"Yeah, it was amazing how far I could get with a mentor wasn't lying to me, hiding things from me or ordering everypony not to help me. You know, actually mentoring me, rather than wasting my time."

Celestia gives me a slightly longer glance, with every so slightly narrowed eyes. I smile back.
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Oh, boy. And I thought his first impression with Luna was bad... At least she isn't trying to kill him... Yet.

"But no. That's just how Starswirl's mirror made him look because he's so big and powerful on the other side that the only thing it could make him that made sense was an alicorn. I worked out how the alicorn transformation worked by myself."

"I.. see. And does that make you happy?"
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Oh, my. Was anyone expecting that question?

Sunset goes to answer, then stops herself. Celestia notices and blinks.

"If you don't want to t-."

"I came back because I want to talk to you about it. But I remember a dozen times where you turned what I said against me to distract me from the fact that you'd taken me on as a student with no intention of teaching me anything."
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Because that question just smashed through her emotional armour like it was nothing...

"That's-."

"I spoke to Twilight. I know perfectly well that the only reason you took either of us on as students was to use the Elements of Harmony on Princess Luna."
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Oh, dear...

"That's not-."

"Then why did you insist on giving me sociology lectures? I was the greatest magic user in the Gifted School including the teachers."

"I hoped that you could learn to have friends. I didn't want you to shut yourself-."
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Looks like that plan kind of backfired, eh?

"I did. When I finally met people who shared my interest in magic, guess what? I made friends. Because we had something in common, because I liked spending time with them, because they weren't total wastes of my time. I agreed to become your student because I though I'd learn more about magic from you than I could anywhere else and whaw was I wrong. I learned more in a year surrounded by.. talking monkeys teaching myself than I did in all my time in Canterlot."
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So Celestia's plan had the exact opposite effect she wanted. Well done, Sunbutt.

She takes a deep breath.

"And you know what else I found out talking to Twilight? I was curious what sort of pony you'd pick after me. How she'd be different to me." She snorts with laughter. "And I'm not sure if I should find it funny or horrifying. You picked a classicist cultist."
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Oh, she's not happy, is she?

Celestia looks at her sternly. "Twilight Sparkle is not a cultist."

"She once drove a town mad because she was worried about missing a weekly 'friendship' report. She's completed fixated on making you happy. You can't have missed that… Can you? Was that what you were trying to do to me?" Sunset snorts derisorily. "Luck escape there. At least her complete lack of interest in original research makes her easier for you to handle."
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...I can't argue with that...

"Twilight Sparkle is an accomplished scholar. She became an alicorn by completing an original spell, which-."

"She became an alicorn by completing Starswirl's poem that didn't require her to understand the underlying mechanism at all. Your replacement for a pony who challenged you was a total sycophant!" Sunset paces a little. "I know how it worked. I even know how Mi Amore Cadenza's ascension worked, something you deliberately hid from me. Literally everything you did since taking me on as your student drove me further away, and now I've got everything I wanted in spite of you."
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And somehow, I have the feeling Celestia is proud of that. Oh, not the 'driving her away' part, the fact that Sunset has learnt.

"I'm sorry that you feel that way, but I was trying to help you-."

"You were trying to help Luna. You know, if you'd just done the sensible thing and told me that in the first place I'd have been happy to help. And don't.. try to give me any horse apples about it not working if I tried to make friends deliberately. I made my first friend when all I wanted was a research partner."
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This is kind of all Celestia's fault, yes...

Celestia smiles.

"You're making friends now?"
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...And that's what she focuses on? Methinks she's been mainlining Harmony too long...

"Yes, I'm making f-. No!" Her face twitches. "I'm not-! Grghkaaagh!"

Her horn glows and I get ready to lunge to knock Celestia out of the way, but-. With a pop Sunset vanishes.
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And she just stormed out like an angry teenager. Welp.

Celestia bows her head with a sigh.

"Hey, look on the bright side: I thought she was going to take a shot at you."

"Graven." She turns her head towards me. "I want to know what you've been teaching my student."
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And now the Mom voice comes out. Is she going to give Grayven the female equivalent of a Shovel Speech?

Now, how is Grayven going to play this... And what blunders is Sunset about to make in her anger? I suppose we'll find out soon enough...

Godspeech:
"I can banish you from Canterlot if you like-."

I grin. "You can try." Cock of the Walk Stance
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The leftmost guard captain looks at her and she nods. He taps his right hoof on the ground twice, and the spread out guard begin leaving the room to take up position on the far side of the doors. She ignored the Stance! How dare she!
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Corrections:
...and they spread out towards the exists.
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...and they spread out towards the exits.
"Luck escape there.
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"Lucky escape there.
 
Mr Zoat said:
"Graven." She turns her head towards me. "I want to know what you've been teaching my student."
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I seem to recall Sunset making it very clear she is not your student anymore.

Mr Zoat said:
"I'm not your student."
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I mean she didn't scream it but I feel like you should be able to sense that amount of Red.

I'm kind of getting the feeling Celestia isn't really acknowledging what Sunset is saying as much as she should.
 
 
Mr Zoat said:
Celestia smiles.

"You're making friends now?"
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...so, just throwing this out there, but has it been posited that Celestia might be... insane?

Like, hear me out here. In the wake of a, frankly, apocalyptic war with Discord, Celestia is forced to use the Harmony-powered superweapon against her only living relative. Even at the most optimistic, with her absolutely certain that it would merely seal Luna away instead of killing her... that's a lot of guilt to deal with.

For a thousand years.

As every other living creature save for her pet phoenix turns to ash around her.

...Celestia and Luna were explicitly born as immortals, but to a mortal culture. They didn't have the advantages Diana did of being born into a world where their friends and family wouldn't die of old age. There's the potential exception of dragons, but I don't think Celestia is on particularly awesome terms with all that many of them.

I'm just curious if Celestia might have lost the ability to care about individuals, instead only seeing the progression of society as a whole, and is trying to relearn how to do so to mixed effect.

Edit: In other words...

Celestia: "Friends are good, right? Mortal ponies should have lots of them all the time, because otherwise they'd turn out like me. I remember having friends, before they started to die. It was nice."
 
Chojin Patriarch said:
Boy, that's... Concerning. Are they so terrified of her they can't bear her displeasure at all?
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No, they revere her so much that they don't want to displease her.
Corrections:
...and they spread out towards the exits.
"Lucky escape there.
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moralrelativity said:
mentor that wasn't
though -> thought
completed -> completely
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Thank you, corrected.
Slayer Anderson said:
...so, just throwing this out there, but has it been posited that Celestia might be... insane?

Like, hear me out here. In the wake of a, frankly, apocalyptic war with Discord, Celestia is forced to use the Harmony-powered superweapon against her only living relative. Even at the most optimistic, with her absolutely certain that it would merely seal Luna away instead of killing her... that's a lot of guilt to deal with.

For a thousand years.

As every other living creature save for her pet phoenix turns to ash around her.

...Celestia and Luna were explicitly born as immortals, but to a mortal culture. They didn't have the advantages Diana did of being born into a world where their friends and family wouldn't die of old age. There's the potential exception of dragons, but I don't think Celestia is on particularly awesome terms with all that many of them.

I'm just curious if Celestia might have lost the ability to care about individuals, instead only seeing the progression of society as a whole, and is trying to relearn how to do so to mixed effect.
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I don't think that's right, but... Exactly how many friends do we canonically see Celestia having?
 
Mr Zoat said:
I don't think that's right, but... Exactly how many friends do we canonically see Celestia having?
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Well... if you're taking the title 'friend' to implicitly signify a peer group... that excludes virtually everyone except, possibly, her sister... and that's very arguable given Luna's mental and emotional state post-release.

I can't think of any legitimate candidates for a list of Celestia's friends. At all. At least, canonically.

Edit: You could also argue Star Swirl the Bearded later in the series, but he hasn't been around for a long time either.
 
Eh. Would be difficult for her to have friends. Kinda like being friends with your boss. You.... can but their is always a level of separation their. Celestia is so much older then everyone, a good deal more powerful then most, is the ruler. Yeah hard to form a connection there. Maybe she is projecting a bit? She wants friends badly but basically can't really have any? At least to the same degree as her subject. Hmm. Honestly I think she is just burnt out. She has been ruler for millennia. I think she is rushing Twilight because she is getting tunnel visioned a bit.
 
Slayer Anderson said:
Edit: In other words...

Celestia: "Friends are good, right? Mortal ponies should have lots of them all the time, because otherwise they'd turn out like me. I remember having friends, before they started to die. It was nice."
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This, sadly, makes far too much sense. Now I feel really badly for her. I hope that at least she's got a few palantir to talk to some of these immortal dragons you mentioned.
 
Mr Zoat said:
No, they revere her so much that they don't want to displease her.


Thank you, corrected.

I don't think that's right, but... Exactly how many friends do we canonically see Celestia having?
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The negative version of her sister and good king sombra? She fixated so much on her relationship with them that the world almost ended... At least that is what I remember when it was discussed days ago in this very thread.
 
Stsword said:
If so, then it's an example of the old saying "He who can does; he who cannot, teaches."
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Honestly that is just so much bullshit. Except if you meant physically can't, but I don't think you did. (otherwise if you can't do you can't teach either.)

Also grayvern is perfectly capable of thinking critically.
 
Is there an index for all the renegade parts? I've been skipping them because of general disintrest untill now since they don't impact the main story. But I thought I'd give it a try, but digging trough all of this stuff to find what i want is a bit much.
 
Onion said:
Is there an index for all the renegade parts? I've been skipping them because of general disintrest untill now since they don't impact the main story. But I thought I'd give it a try, but digging trough all of this stuff to find what i want is a bit much.
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Check the text on the first post of every episode?

Someone made an episode guide for the Renegade updates back when the migration to SV {when stars crossed episode} happened.

Anyways 60% of the earlier Renegade updates are pointless filler.

First important deviation Paul used Gangbusters on himself and used the ring to control and stabilize the muscle growth.

Second important deviation he assimilated sportsmaster and bane.

The forever people confronted him and called him Grayven, this led to 'Grayven' kneecaped DeSaad and stole his father box, then he convinced said Father Box that he was the real Grayven and he was soulless because his original soul got shredded when he threw himself through that portal.

Batman asked 'Grayven' to use his resources to attempt to infiltrate the 'hypothetical' alliance of super villains we know as The light.

During the April fools update Grayven got interference from Ambush bug radiation and got Sunset Shimmer and the yandere from Death Note in his crossover.

Now start reading at Stars Crossed part one.
 
Mr Zoat said:
with every so slightly
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'ever'?

I don't know MLP:FIS fandom at all well, but I wonder if the idea that the ponies are elven nudists (though willing to wear decorative/formal clothes) has been put forward? :)

("Look! They're trying to pervert children, by teaching them clothes are optional!" :) )

...

A few, scattered, points, looking at the current chapter...

Grayven seems to have done a workable job of helping Sunset to learn how not to act on her anger, or at least retain a little self-control... I'll admit I'm curious where she teleported to...

Wondering if ponies think his name is 'Graven Conquest', or transform that into 'Conquest of the Grave', so 'winning by killing any opposition'... Could help explain a few reactions to him...

Nice to see the lecturer in that chapter made sure he retained the important thing, the new knowledge, and if a magical equivalent of the photo copier exists I can see it being heavily used, ASAP, before Celestia confiscates it for 'careful study'...

Did Celestia expect Grayven to leave, along with all the other ponies, except for Sunset and her guard? Or, had she already classified him as a potential Outside Context Problem, and she was probing to see how he reacted? Is she concerned about what the relationship is between Grayven and Friendship? And, on that point, is there a New God of Friendship?
 
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