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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Out of interest how long have Darkseid and High Father been failing to 'work something out' for dealing with each other?

Indeed how long has every spacefaring polity in the universe had to 'work something out' for dealing with Apokolips in general? Or the Green Lanterns, who quite a few polities would probably like to be rid of.

This is either a blatant lie or an amazing vote of confidence in the competency of both the Forever People and the Amazons.
The difference between Darkseid and a statue is that one is Darkseid and the other is an inanimate, unresisting object.
o_O … so was there anything but sheer luck keeping Sunset and that guard from becoming murderers?
Yes, that was the wall they test-fire spells at. There isn't anything much behind it for obvious safety reasons.
 
The difference between Darkseid and a statue is that one is Darkseid and the other is an inanimate, unresisting object.
Flawed argument. The Equestrians had no more reason to think Discord would get better from being blasted with the EoH than Grayven had to think Klarion would get better from being stabbed with the Sword.
You can argue that the guard should have been preparing to fight the next Lord of Chaos or similar entity to come alone. But by that same logic everyone in the universe should be preparing for Darkseid or the Anti-Monitor or some other malevolent god-like being to show up.

Yes, that was the wall they test-fire spells at. There isn't anything much behind it for obvious safety reasons.
By the text the beam went through three walls before exiting the city. So either Equestria already had weapons that need multiple walls and empty sky as their backstop or some poor pony just had new windows added to their building. Hopefully not while they or anything they value was in it.
 
Thank you, corrected.
Flawed argument. The Equestrians had no more reason to think Discord would get better from being blasted with the EoH than Grayven had to think Klarion would get better from being stabbed with the Sword.
Possible. However, Discord's statue started cracking as a result of the Cutie Mark Crusaders arguing near to it. An indeterminate amount of time passed and then he was free. Celestia knows from Nightmare Moon's example that the Elements don't necessarily kill what they hit. She also knew that the Elements could release him. Though it's impossible to say exactly when she learned that, she knew for at least a thousand years that he might not be dead, and took no visible precautions.

Twilight didn't know that Discord existed, despite being both Celestia's student and a Bearer i.e. the pony who would be called in to deal with him, until after he got free.
You can argue that the guard should have been preparing to fight the next Lord of Chaos or similar entity to come alone. But by that same logic everyone in the universe should be preparing for Darkseid or the Anti-Monitor or some other malevolent god-like being to show up.
Yes. They should. Obviously, not everyone can, and perhaps focusing on developing their economy might be the way to go, but that's a very sensible thing to do in a universe where being like that exist.
 
Huh....nice musical, but the source worries me...It's a decent setup for a counter song from Celestia.

I mean, the same Album has a tune called 'The Sun Is Also a Warrior'.
Yes, but that song wouldn't be a rebuttal. The message of The Sun Is Also A Warrior is that sometimes violence is the only way to solve a problem, though it should never be treated trivially. Avoiding villain songs, I'm... Struggling to think of a song with the message of 'I want what's best for you, listen to me and do what I say or bad things will happen to you'.
 
More the direct response of SunButt singing a Sun related tune telling folks what they want is actually a monkey's paw wish that will end only in horror and tragedy. That the status quo, despite all the problems, must continue. Considering that her student was exiled for wanting to become more powerful, and upset that status quo, despite how noble the reasons (or not so noble, depending on how you read it). The "Lucifer" tune is all about reaching past limitations, conventions and such. "The Sun Is Also A Warrior" shows that doing so can have a cost that no one wishes to pay.

A slightly alternate read on the songs, given the context of the story here.
 
More the direct response of SunButt singing a Sun related tune telling folks what they want is actually a monkey's paw wish that will end only in horror and tragedy. That the status quo, despite all the problems, must continue. Considering that her student was exiled for wanting to become more powerful, and upset that status quo, despite how noble the reasons (or not so noble, depending on how you read it). The "Lucifer" tune is all about reaching past limitations, conventions and such. "The Sun Is Also A Warrior" shows that doing so can have a cost that no one wishes to pay.
No it doesn't. The old man didn't want his people to keep paying the cost and was shown to be very much in the wrong.

Celestia's song... I'm reminded of an old fantasy story I read a few decades ago. A young man's town gets conquered and the people either killed or enslaved. He flees, and vows to find a way to take revenge. He wonders for many years before being taken in by a woodland wizard. He asks the wizard where his power comes from, and the wizard explains that it comes from service. He helps the forest and in return the plants and animals of the forest help him. So the young man goes back and serves the desert. He destroys plants, befouls wells and generally does his level best to turn farmlands into dustbowls. Then he calls the desert down upon the children of the people who conquered his town, ruthlessly killing them all. At the end, one of the last few survivors of the empire he went to war with stabs him, and only sand bleeds out.

But again, Sunset wanted to do the rational thing and gain information from Celestia before doing anything extreme. Celestia herself blocked that approach.
 
I think that Celestia can probably make a reasonably convincing argument that for most of Equestria's history the social and political dangers that would arise as a consequence of having a strong military represented a threat to Equestria that is greater than any potential boon they could provide in conflict. The idea that Celestia has gained a through understanding of the horrors of war during her long independent rule over Equestria and has decided to deliberately reject the use of military force as a means of solving problems makes a lot of sense to me.

You could probably have a really disturbing song about how Celestia's millennium of experience has shown her that Equestrian military forces will inevitably either decay into ineffectiveness, try to embark on a conquest of neighbors, or start serving as a source of coup attempts after there is a long enough period of time with no conflict. This seems like a great way to start showing that Celestia is a ruler with a massive depth of experience who has successfully transformed her nation into a near utopia and kept it that way for centuries.

The general idea I am going this is that from a truly long-term perspective the weakness of the Equestrian military could be considered a good thing and Celestia's actions in enabling its decline could be considered a strategy rather than massive incompetence.

I think that this could be a great song that shows Celestia's perspective on war and that serves as a counterpoint to any attempt to to strengthen the military. This seems like it could be effective because it highlights the fact that Graven and Sunset both lack a true understanding of the horrors of War and may not understand what they are doing in their support for military development.
 
Tricia is a con artist whose talent is in magic tricks. She's useless I'm in most combat situations.
Point of order the one time we see her fight in the changling hive she proves herself a skilled combat illutionist, which will always be useful in any combat situation.

That said she is not a fighter or soldier and has no interest in becoming one so she is not relevent to the Renegade's plans.
 
I think that Celestia can probably make a reasonably convincing argument that for most of Equestria's history the social and political dangers that would arise as a consequence of having a strong military represented a threat to Equestria that is greater than any potential boon they could provide in conflict. The idea that Celestia has gained a through understanding of the horrors of war during her long independent rule over Equestria and has decided to deliberately reject the use of military force as a means of solving problems makes a lot of sense to me.

You could probably have a really disturbing song about how Celestia's millennium of experience has shown her that Equestrian military forces will inevitably either decay into ineffectiveness, try to embark on a conquest of neighbors, or start serving as a source of coup attempts after there is a long enough period of time with no conflict. This seems like a great way to start showing that Celestia is a ruler with a massive depth of experience who has successfully transformed her nation into a near utopia and kept it that way for centuries.

The general idea I am going this is that from a truly long-term perspective the weakness of the Equestrian military could be considered a good thing and Celestia's actions in enabling its decline could be considered a strategy rather than massive incompetence.

I think that this could be a great song that shows Celestia's perspective on war and that serves as a counterpoint to any attempt to to strengthen the military. This seems like it could be effective because it highlights the fact that Graven and Sunset both lack a true understanding of the horrors of War and may not understand what they are doing in their support for military development.
Assuming that Equestria's population is roughly what Europe's was at that level of technological development, then even allowing for a thousand year lifespan there's a good chance that Grayven's sojourn to the Vega Systems resulted in him seeing more death in war than she has.

Then there's the problem of special talents. Some ponies will get talents relating to violence and be driven to use them. Grayven's comments hurt here because they addressed what the Royal Guard consider to be their main purpose in life. In Celestia was intentionally running the Guard into the ground then she had a moral obligation to come up with a way of removing or changing their cutie marks. Or she could just keep a very small and well trained standing army, which she effectively ended up doing in the shape of the Bearers anyway.
 
I am not trying to say that Celestia is necessarily making the right decision in regarding to keeping the military weak. I simply think that the presented argument could serve as a reason for why the military is so weak that doesn't present Celestia as being incredibly incompetent.
 
Assuming that Equestria's population is roughly what Europe's was at that level of technological development, then even allowing for a thousand year lifespan there's a good chance that Grayven's sojourn to the Vega Systems resulted in him seeing more death in war than she has.

Then there's the problem of special talents. Some ponies will get talents relating to violence and be driven to use them. Grayven's comments hurt here because they addressed what the Royal Guard consider to be their main purpose in life. In Celestia was intentionally running the Guard into the ground then she had a moral obligation to come up with a way of removing or changing their cutie marks. Or she could just keep a very small and well trained standing army, which she effectively ended up doing in the shape of the Bearers anyway.
There's a difference between seeing people die in war and seeing people you know and care about die in war. Grayven has the former experience while Celestia likely has the latter. The royal guard is likely there to protect Celestia from crazy ponies and wild animals. After all, what if a bear wanders in to the royal palace and starts doing his buiseness all over the place.
 
Possible. However, Discord's statue started cracking as a result of the Cutie Mark Crusaders arguing near to it. An indeterminate amount of time passed and then he was free. Celestia knows from Nightmare Moon's example that the Elements don't necessarily kill what they hit. She also knew that the Elements could release him. Though it's impossible to say exactly when she learned that, she knew for at least a thousand years that he might not be dead, and took no visible precautions.

Twilight didn't know that Discord existed, despite being both Celestia's student and a Bearer i.e. the pony who would be called in to deal with him, until after he got free.
Putting aside the large "visible precautions" issue you are missing some rather important logic.

She knew when she first hit him that he might not be dead.

Then a year went by and nothing happened.

Then ten years went by and nothing happened.

Then a hundred years went by and still nothing happened.

Then a thousand years went by and it's at the point where statistically speaking there's a better chance of a person dying to a meteor strike then there is of Discord still being alive.

So basically put I could use that same level of logic to argue that everyone not living inside a "will protect you from a direct strike" nuclear bunker is an idiot.
 
Could you make a reasonable case for finding those with Cutie Marks which point to war and conflict, and creating a training cadre, which spends its time in wargames, with some visits, by selected individuals, to parts of the world where conflict is still an active issue?

That would tie-up the conflict-driven, and at least put them in one place so you know where they are. As well as allowing soldier training in time for when portents say it will be needed. The Royal Guards would, of course, be trained in a limited way by this group (as well as in observation and diplomacy). All this avoids a Praetorian Guard situation, as you don't mix your elite forces intimately with your government..
 
Could you make a reasonable case for finding those with Cutie Marks which point to war and conflict, and creating a training cadre, which spends its time in wargames, with some visits, by selected individuals, to parts of the world where conflict is still an active issue?

That would tie-up the conflict-driven, and at least put them in one place so you know where they are. As well as allowing soldier training in time for when portents say it will be needed. The Royal Guards would, of course, be trained in a limited way by this group (as well as in observation and diplomacy). All this avoids a Praetorian Guard situation, as you don't mix your elite forces intimately with your government..
Shit, that explains a lot if all of her best ponies were off in Saddle Arabia fighting a war in the Middle East. Or if there's an email going border war with the changelings and the best soldiers are patrolling the border.
 
Ya know this chapter is proof Grayvens a nice guy. This chapter would have been good to point out that Celestia didn't see fit to inform them of Nightmare Moons return and possible counter measures they should try or keeping them appraised of Discord and statues like him and so on. He kept the failures on them. Which is an improvement! Honest. Not searching for a way to praise Great Grayven at all, I swear!
 
Ya know this chapter is proof Grayvens a nice guy. This chapter would have been good to point out that Celestia didn't see fit to inform them of Nightmare Moons return and possible counter measures they should try or keeping them appraised of Discord and statues like him and so on. He kept the failures on them. Which is an improvement! Honest. Not searching for a way to praise Great Grayven at all, I swear!
Do you think it would be nicer to leave them completely unprepared for the next crisis so that they and all the ponies they're charged with protecting are killed?
 
Point of order the one time we see her fight in the changling hive she proves herself a skilled combat illutionist, which will always be useful in any combat situation.
That said she is not a fighter or soldier and has no interest in becoming one so she is not relevent to the Renegade's plans.

She also created lightning in her first appearance and she is good with fireworks.
 
the lightning was her being showy, illusion magic again. and "Being good with fireworks" doesn't translate to an impeccable knowledge on how to do the boomy thing. especially not on the level that megumin does.
 
Equestrian Guise (part 11)
Afternoon
Equestria


Celestia takes a step forward, and whatever music-based magic was keeping everyone cooperating appears to fade away.

"Fillies and gentlecolts, could you please give my student and I the room?"

And unlike on Earth, not a single one of them takes the central gangway, with the attendant risk of accidentally pushing against their goddess-queen. They only dare try it if her downward path has already taken her past their row. Otherwise they file towards the sides of the room and then head towards the back. Aside from a couple who teleport, and the lecturer who grabs the books Sunset handed him and heads for the staff entrance. Only those guardsponies Sunset brought with us stick around, and they spread out towards the exits. None try to stay in their places.

Celestia casts a slightly wary eye over me, but otherwise keeps her attention on Sunset. Sunset in turn stares at Celestia like she's trying to bore a hole in her.

"I'm not your student."

"I can banish you from Canterlot if you like-."

I grin. "You can try." Cock of the Walk Stance

A slight exhalation and a small glance my way, before she returns her attention to Sunset.

"But I don't see how that would help either of us."

The leftmost guard captain looks at her and she nods. He taps his right hoof on the ground twice, and the spread out guard begin leaving the room to take up position on the far side of the doors. She ignored the Stance! How dare she!

Sunset walks to the front of the stage as Celestia reaches the front of the room. Sunset's head is a little higher than Celestia's in this position, but it's like… Yeah, a child sitting on the top of the stairs and claiming to be taller than their parent. Now… Do I want to involve myself or not?

I want Sunset to.. win something here. Putting Celestia off her stride helps with that, because however Sunset feels about Celestia personally 'obey the goddess-queen' has been imprinted onto the entire pony population of Equestria for a thousand years. She can break the conditioning, but that sort of thing generally makes people… Angry. Shouty. Stupid. They build up internal tension before breaking the taboo and then the fact that they've broken it becomes their sole focus.

Ah! Perfect! I turn and trot down the steps at the side of the stage, then stand on Celestia's left. She may be the tallest pony on the planet but she's still shorter than me. And far skinnier. I… Read a piece of fan fiction back on Earth Prime where one of the characters is viscerally disgusted by Celestia, thinking of her as some sort of alien monstrosity that real ponies unaccountably allow to lord it over them. And… Yes, I see where he was coming from. Twilight and Luna both have body proportions more like those of the regular ponies than Celestia does.

Anyway, since My Big Pony over there has Equestrian forward-mounted eyes rather than the real horse side-mounted eyes, me lurking in the periphery of her visual field should be just off-putting enough to give Sunset an edge.

Sunset looks down at Celestia from the edge of the stage, then turns her head my way.

"Grayven, you can open a portal to anywhere on this planet from Challenger Mountain, right?"

I nod. "Yes, though without Starswirl's mirror we wouldn't transform."

Sunset turns back to Celestia. "Then it actually doesn't matter if you banish me again. My ritual-" She tosses her head in the direction of the blackboard, though there's next to no chance that Celestia understands what she's written. "-will work just fine anywhere. I don't even have to be in Equestria."

Celestia nods slowly. "I take it that you believe that you've found a way to become an alicorn." I get another small glance. "I'm surprised that you were able to find someone who could help you."

"Yeah, it was amazing how far I could get with a mentor who wasn't lying to me, hiding things from me or ordering everypony not to help me. You know, actually mentoring me, rather than wasting my time."

Celestia gives me a slightly longer glance, with ever so slightly narrowed eyes. I smile back.

"But no. That's just how Starswirl's mirror made him look because he's so big and powerful on the other side that the only thing it could make him that made sense was an alicorn. I worked out how the alicorn transformation worked by myself."

"I.. see. And does that make you happy?"

Sunset goes to answer, then stops herself. Celestia notices and blinks.

"If you don't want to t-."

"I came back because I want to talk to you about it. But I remember a dozen times where you turned what I said against me to distract me from the fact that you'd taken me on as a student with no intention of teaching me anything."

"That's-."

"I spoke to Twilight. I know perfectly well that the only reason you took either of us on as students was to use the Elements of Harmony on Princess Luna."

"That's not-."

"Then why did you insist on giving me sociology lectures? I was the greatest magic user in the Gifted School including the teachers."

"I hoped that you could learn to have friends. I didn't want you to shut yourself-."

"I did. When I finally met people who shared my interest in magic, guess what? I made friends. Because we had something in common, because I liked spending time with them, because they weren't total wastes of my time. I agreed to become your student because I thought I'd learn more about magic from you than I could anywhere else and whaw was I wrong. I learned more in a year surrounded by.. talking monkeys teaching myself than I did in all my time in Canterlot."

She takes a deep breath.

"And you know what else I found out talking to Twilight? I was curious what sort of pony you'd pick after me. How she'd be different to me." She snorts with laughter. "And I'm not sure if I should find it funny or horrifying. You picked a classicist cultist."

Celestia looks at her sternly. "Twilight Sparkle is not a cultist."

"She once drove a town mad because she was worried about missing a weekly 'friendship' report. She's completely fixated on making you happy. You can't have missed that… Can you? Was that what you were trying to do to me?" Sunset snorts derisorily. "Lucky escape there. At least her complete lack of interest in original research makes her easier for you to handle."

"Twilight Sparkle is an accomplished scholar. She became an alicorn by completing an original spell, which-."

"She became an alicorn by completing Starswirl's poem that didn't require her to understand the underlying mechanism at all. Your replacement for a pony who challenged you was a total sycophant!" Sunset paces a little. "I know how it worked. I even know how Mi Amore Cadenza's ascension worked, something you deliberately hid from me. Literally everything you did since taking me on as your student drove me further away, and now I've got everything I wanted in spite of you."

"I'm sorry that you feel that way, but I was trying to help you-."

"You were trying to help Luna. You know, if you'd just done the sensible thing and told me that in the first place I'd have been happy to help. And don't.. try to give me any horse apples about it not working if I tried to make friends deliberately. I made my first friend when all I wanted was a research partner."

Celestia smiles.

"You're making friends now?"

"Yes, I'm making f-. No!" Her face twitches. "I'm not-! Grghkaaagh!"

Her horn glows and I get ready to lunge to knock Celestia out of the way, but-. With a pop Sunset vanishes.

Celestia bows her head with a sigh.

"Hey, look on the bright side: I thought she was going to take a shot at you."

"Graven." She turns her head towards me. "I want to know what you've been teaching my student."
 
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