Mr Zoat
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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)
- Thread starter Mr Zoat
- Start date
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- self insert young justice
Equestrian Guise (part 12)
Mr Zoat
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Canterlot
Afternoon
"I'm pretty sure at this point that she's… Waaaay done with being your student."
Celestia breathes in… And then out again. "Yes, I did notice that."
"But you said it anyway. I don't really care, but Sunset's very angry with you and slips like that are just going to make things worse."
She considers for a moment, then nods. "I only meant to send her away from the palace for a short time, to allow her to experience more of life and hopefully gain some perspective on her obsession. My intent was to resume her tuition when she was in a more receptive frame of mind."
"Um. Okay? And… When she scoured the country for arcane lore and kept trying to become an alicorn anyway as the ultimate expression of her special talent and the destiny the mirror showed her, hating you all the while for having all the answers and refusing to share them… What then? Because… That's what would have happened."
"I have more faith in m-. In Sunset than to believe that."
"Faith..? Oh, sure, she wouldn't have tried causing eternal night or anything, but that pony lives for arcane study. You should see her work on Equestria's harmony field."
Celestia starts to smile, then frowns in confusion. "What do you mean by 'harmony field'?"
"That's a conversation you should probably have with her. It's fairly fundamental to your disagreement."
She lowers her head slightly. "I would appreciate it if you would tell me anyway."
"Magic is not something you passively use. It both acts on and is acted upon. Create a harmonious realm and that harmony can be a source of arcane power to those who embody it. But there's nothing special about harmony in that regard. My own.. father… Rules a world filled with something called the Anti-Life. And the world on the far side of Starswirl's mirror has a chaotically complex system with no overriding guiding ideology."
I shake my head.
"The point being: while there are good reasons for accepting the virtues of harmony for their own sake, and they do grant increased magic strength while in Equestria, the link is extrinsic rather than intrinsic."
"That is what you taught her?"
"I didn't teach her thaumaturgy. I just bought her books and a laboratory. She worked it out herself." I nod at the blackboard. "If you want a more detailed explanation, it's on the board. No, my lessons with Sunset were more about application. I would present her with a practical problem, and she would attempt to solve it."
Celestia nods. "What happened to Sunset when she passed through the mirror?"
"She came out in a small park in a major city. There isn't any sort of marker on the other side now… If there ever was."
She shakes her head. "I have not had cause to use the Mirror for many years. I have no knowledge of what lies on the other side."
"I'm more surprised that no one's come through from my side by accident. The portal wasn't on a major thoroughfare or anything, but it's not out of the way."
Or… Have people come through before, only to have their memories obliviated away? I checked Philadelphia's records once Sunset told me that the portal's end point was fixed, but I didn't find anything that fit what I think I know about Equestria. Didn't bother looking for amnesia…
"Have you taken measures to ensure that nopony will do so?"
I frown. "It was the middle of a major city. We do have equines, but they're more like your… Pre-sophoncy ancestors. They're kept as pets or beasts of burden." She seems to take that news with equanimity. Heh. "There aren't any in central Philadelphia. If you're talking about inadvertent human visitors, you don't need to worry. Sunset worked out how to move the end point and it's now in her laboratory, which is in a fortified area. That's not to say that a sufficiently clever physicist or wizard couldn't work out how to replicate the link, but…" I nearly-shrug. "There's no risk of a chance encounter."
"I'm glad. I imagine that it would be quite distressing for someone from an alien world to fall through and be stranded here."
"… Yes, because you.. couldn't just board it up from your side?"
Celestia gives her head a small shake. "I hoped that Sunset Shimmer would return one day. As the years passed I realised that that was increasingly unlikely, but still: I did not want to block her one avenue for returning here."
"If you think a couple of boards would have stopped her, you're really underestimating her."
"She was.. certainly always determined." She pauses for a moment. "She said that only a year passed for you?"
"Almost to the minute. Makes me wonder if the spell controlling the aperture opening was set to something on our side rather than yours. Though Sunset's fixed it now; one spell to keep it open and some mana siphons to ensure that it retains power. She really is quite clever."
"Sunset's problem was never her intelligence."
"Did you really kick her out for reading a history book? I realise that I've only heard one side of that disagreement, but I doubt that she told me a direct lie."
"No, I did not kick her out for reading a history book. The history book was simply the last instance of her disregarding my instructions before I banished her from the palace for repeatedly ignoring my lessons. I hoped that after she was forced to interact with other ponies for a time she would come to realise the error of her ways and learn the lessons in humility and compassion that I had failed to teach her."
"And you had no ulterior motive in the direction of your teachings?"
"I'm not sure what you're implying-."
"I'm not good at estimating the age of ponies. But I know a human teenager when I see one. Your newly alicornised acolyte isn't all that old. Probably too young to remember that you had another student just before her. If Sunset had stayed she'd be in her prime right now. Did you mean for her to confront Nightmare Moon?"
"Yes, I hoped that Sunset would develop the virtues necessary to wield the Elements of Harmony. I hope that for all my little ponies. Those virtues underpin our society, and encourage my little ponies' happiness."
"And it was pure chance that you took on two magic-talent unicorns as students in the run-up to your sister's return? Sunset's never mentioned her predecessor. If I were to examine your records how far back would I have to look to find one?"
"Quite.. some way." Her face hardens. "But I did not simply discard Sunset when she went against my wishes. She left through the mirror of her own volition."
"After you banished her. And after she came to you to learn magic and you spent years focusing on ethics instead. And you didn't explain why at any point."
"Should I take it then that the curriculum which you have been teaching her does not involve ethics?"
"A year with an alien magic system, and she's the most capable magic user her age on the planet. She'll be an archmage before she's twenty. You want me to waste that potential trying to turn her into a moral philosopher?"
"I want to know that you're not just using her as a.. device for research. Sunset is a pony, and whatever she thinks, she needs other ponies in her life."
"No ponies, but she has friends now. Two of them are other magic users who have the capacity to keep up with her on her favourite topic, and meaningfully contribute to her work. Like you used to. And a third… And I've really got no idea how they started relating to each other, but they voluntarily spend time in one another's company so I'm calling that three-nil. Grayven-" I hold my right forehoof up to my right ear-. No, wait, it's a little further backthere we go. "-I hear you cry, how did you achieve such a thing where I, with all my experience of and devotion to friendship could not?' And I will gladly-."
"You brought her into contact with people she considered to be her equals, and their friends. She spoke to them of their shared interests, and the friendship grew from there."
"And I didn't try and make her something she isn't. Her special talent is magic research. How could you possibly think that you could stop her doing the most important thing in her life and expect her to remain interested in anything you had to say?"
"I thought that 'magic research' might extend to the magic of friendship-."
"Hah, you're such a pony!"
Her expression hardens a little. "Why are you here?"
"I'm here to provide moral support for Sunset when she ascends. And Luna helped me deal with a problem with my father's magic I was having, and in return I offered to help improve Equestria's military."
Should I mention that I want to date her? No, no, probably not.
"Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go and give Sunset someone to vent at."
Afternoon
"I'm pretty sure at this point that she's… Waaaay done with being your student."
Celestia breathes in… And then out again. "Yes, I did notice that."
"But you said it anyway. I don't really care, but Sunset's very angry with you and slips like that are just going to make things worse."
She considers for a moment, then nods. "I only meant to send her away from the palace for a short time, to allow her to experience more of life and hopefully gain some perspective on her obsession. My intent was to resume her tuition when she was in a more receptive frame of mind."
"Um. Okay? And… When she scoured the country for arcane lore and kept trying to become an alicorn anyway as the ultimate expression of her special talent and the destiny the mirror showed her, hating you all the while for having all the answers and refusing to share them… What then? Because… That's what would have happened."
"I have more faith in m-. In Sunset than to believe that."
"Faith..? Oh, sure, she wouldn't have tried causing eternal night or anything, but that pony lives for arcane study. You should see her work on Equestria's harmony field."
Celestia starts to smile, then frowns in confusion. "What do you mean by 'harmony field'?"
"That's a conversation you should probably have with her. It's fairly fundamental to your disagreement."
She lowers her head slightly. "I would appreciate it if you would tell me anyway."
"Magic is not something you passively use. It both acts on and is acted upon. Create a harmonious realm and that harmony can be a source of arcane power to those who embody it. But there's nothing special about harmony in that regard. My own.. father… Rules a world filled with something called the Anti-Life. And the world on the far side of Starswirl's mirror has a chaotically complex system with no overriding guiding ideology."
I shake my head.
"The point being: while there are good reasons for accepting the virtues of harmony for their own sake, and they do grant increased magic strength while in Equestria, the link is extrinsic rather than intrinsic."
"That is what you taught her?"
"I didn't teach her thaumaturgy. I just bought her books and a laboratory. She worked it out herself." I nod at the blackboard. "If you want a more detailed explanation, it's on the board. No, my lessons with Sunset were more about application. I would present her with a practical problem, and she would attempt to solve it."
Celestia nods. "What happened to Sunset when she passed through the mirror?"
"She came out in a small park in a major city. There isn't any sort of marker on the other side now… If there ever was."
She shakes her head. "I have not had cause to use the Mirror for many years. I have no knowledge of what lies on the other side."
"I'm more surprised that no one's come through from my side by accident. The portal wasn't on a major thoroughfare or anything, but it's not out of the way."
Or… Have people come through before, only to have their memories obliviated away? I checked Philadelphia's records once Sunset told me that the portal's end point was fixed, but I didn't find anything that fit what I think I know about Equestria. Didn't bother looking for amnesia…
"Have you taken measures to ensure that nopony will do so?"
I frown. "It was the middle of a major city. We do have equines, but they're more like your… Pre-sophoncy ancestors. They're kept as pets or beasts of burden." She seems to take that news with equanimity. Heh. "There aren't any in central Philadelphia. If you're talking about inadvertent human visitors, you don't need to worry. Sunset worked out how to move the end point and it's now in her laboratory, which is in a fortified area. That's not to say that a sufficiently clever physicist or wizard couldn't work out how to replicate the link, but…" I nearly-shrug. "There's no risk of a chance encounter."
"I'm glad. I imagine that it would be quite distressing for someone from an alien world to fall through and be stranded here."
"… Yes, because you.. couldn't just board it up from your side?"
Celestia gives her head a small shake. "I hoped that Sunset Shimmer would return one day. As the years passed I realised that that was increasingly unlikely, but still: I did not want to block her one avenue for returning here."
"If you think a couple of boards would have stopped her, you're really underestimating her."
"She was.. certainly always determined." She pauses for a moment. "She said that only a year passed for you?"
"Almost to the minute. Makes me wonder if the spell controlling the aperture opening was set to something on our side rather than yours. Though Sunset's fixed it now; one spell to keep it open and some mana siphons to ensure that it retains power. She really is quite clever."
"Sunset's problem was never her intelligence."
"Did you really kick her out for reading a history book? I realise that I've only heard one side of that disagreement, but I doubt that she told me a direct lie."
"No, I did not kick her out for reading a history book. The history book was simply the last instance of her disregarding my instructions before I banished her from the palace for repeatedly ignoring my lessons. I hoped that after she was forced to interact with other ponies for a time she would come to realise the error of her ways and learn the lessons in humility and compassion that I had failed to teach her."
"And you had no ulterior motive in the direction of your teachings?"
"I'm not sure what you're implying-."
"I'm not good at estimating the age of ponies. But I know a human teenager when I see one. Your newly alicornised acolyte isn't all that old. Probably too young to remember that you had another student just before her. If Sunset had stayed she'd be in her prime right now. Did you mean for her to confront Nightmare Moon?"
"Yes, I hoped that Sunset would develop the virtues necessary to wield the Elements of Harmony. I hope that for all my little ponies. Those virtues underpin our society, and encourage my little ponies' happiness."
"And it was pure chance that you took on two magic-talent unicorns as students in the run-up to your sister's return? Sunset's never mentioned her predecessor. If I were to examine your records how far back would I have to look to find one?"
"Quite.. some way." Her face hardens. "But I did not simply discard Sunset when she went against my wishes. She left through the mirror of her own volition."
"After you banished her. And after she came to you to learn magic and you spent years focusing on ethics instead. And you didn't explain why at any point."
"Should I take it then that the curriculum which you have been teaching her does not involve ethics?"
"A year with an alien magic system, and she's the most capable magic user her age on the planet. She'll be an archmage before she's twenty. You want me to waste that potential trying to turn her into a moral philosopher?"
"I want to know that you're not just using her as a.. device for research. Sunset is a pony, and whatever she thinks, she needs other ponies in her life."
"No ponies, but she has friends now. Two of them are other magic users who have the capacity to keep up with her on her favourite topic, and meaningfully contribute to her work. Like you used to. And a third… And I've really got no idea how they started relating to each other, but they voluntarily spend time in one another's company so I'm calling that three-nil. Grayven-" I hold my right forehoof up to my right ear-. No, wait, it's a little further backthere we go. "-I hear you cry, how did you achieve such a thing where I, with all my experience of and devotion to friendship could not?' And I will gladly-."
"You brought her into contact with people she considered to be her equals, and their friends. She spoke to them of their shared interests, and the friendship grew from there."
"And I didn't try and make her something she isn't. Her special talent is magic research. How could you possibly think that you could stop her doing the most important thing in her life and expect her to remain interested in anything you had to say?"
"I thought that 'magic research' might extend to the magic of friendship-."
"Hah, you're such a pony!"
Her expression hardens a little. "Why are you here?"
"I'm here to provide moral support for Sunset when she ascends. And Luna helped me deal with a problem with my father's magic I was having, and in return I offered to help improve Equestria's military."
Should I mention that I want to date her? No, no, probably not.
"Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go and give Sunset someone to vent at."
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Pinklestia
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Has Sunset realised that Grayven has basically adopted her yet?
Idkusername
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Mr Zoat, the post isn't threadmarked.
Idkusername
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And she won't until it's too late!! Watch as Grayven collects emotionally stunted/traumatised teenagers and teaches them to use their knowledge and powers responsibly by acting as a reasonable authority figure and being a badass father figure! MWAHAHA!!
Pinklestia
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So he is basically Zordon of Eltar from power Rangers? Without being crippled and stuck on a tube?
Cuchulin
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With out the Kidnapping either.
Mr Zoat
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Every flipping time I add the threadmark and every flipping time it vanishes when I post.
Chojin Patriarch
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Yes, any louder and Luna would have been looking in, asking about the use of Canterlot Royal Voice.
Ah, the same thing she did with Twilight. But Twilight was actually willing to do as she was told...
I doubt it would have been pretty either way.
...Does she really not know how Harmony works, after all these centuries? Did she just have no curiosity about it at all or was she jsut trrusting blind faith and luck?
At least she's asking now. Hopefully, she can learn to make amends to Sunset...
Best not to elaborate on his father, yet...
Harmony has its own plans for the world. It's content to allow itself to be used for good purposes, but try and do evil with it... Well, look at the 'Mean 6's fate...
"Often in a way I hadn't even expected her to attempt, either."
Not even a simple faerie circle... And the exit point presumably didn't always open there every time, given the Sirens in Scandanavia...
Good time to ask her. Just in case...
And I see she had the same thought... Or a similar one.
Well, a minimised risk. Who knows what Earth Bullshit can achieve through ignorance?
Ah, the subject of so many fanfics. And whole families of story in general. Like the Manga and Anime industry's current fascination with Isekai plots.
Imagine if she'd learnt how to reach Equestria without the mirror...
Determined is one way to put it... And now we come to the "Why is still the same age?" question, eh?
Too true...
Boy, did she ever misread that situation...
Oh, wow... He's really going there?
No prophecies or foresight to give her warning? How refreshing.
Not sure it was completely of her own volition, when you were practically pushing her through. At least in Sunset's mind.
Sunset's old enough to know right from wrong. If she does the wrong thing, Grayven would tell her so...
Bitch, please. Grayven is Best Dad. Of course she's not locked in a lab. Even if she tried, he'd drag her out...
Gloating, Grayven. Not really polite.
Seriously, that kind of thing causes mental breakdowns in ponies. We've seen it happen in the series, most notably 'Magical Mystery Cure'...
I can't help but read that as exasperation. I get the feeling she wants to go find Sunset, but the young lady isn't in the mood for her...
Not unless you want a taste of the Shovel Speech...
Yup, Best Dad. Willing to do what it takes, even getting shouted at by his charges.
Amazing that all this was a five (maybe ten) minute conversation... It feels so much longer...
Correction:
...while there are good reasons for accepting...
RichardWhereat
Aia airëa Fëanáro.
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Yes. Do that thing. Absolutely do that thing.
Slayer Anderson
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Oh for fuck's sake...
Celestia, she wants you in her life, because she loves you like a mother, or else she wouldn't be half as angry with you as she currently is. It's the fact that you don't approve of, and apparently can't or won't understand, her life choices that's the point of friction.
So she decided that her other parental figure is now the go-to for emotional support. Because Grayven is apparently just that good at Dad-ing.
I'm actually looking forward to what Sunset's face looks like when she realizes exactly what she sees Celestia and Grayven, respectively, as.
Handlewithcare
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Honestly, I don't think Celestia is in the wrong here. Making sure someone with so much potnetial power has a solid ethics foundation and a social net to fall back on before they become super powerful, which makes it even harder to relate, makes a lot of sense.
I don't like how Grayven railroaded and interrupted her. She is old and experienced enough to finish her sentences and make herself heard.
I don't like how Grayven railroaded and interrupted her. She is old and experienced enough to finish her sentences and make herself heard.
Onion
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I only needed to read one of the latest parts to get the gist of the character. Accidentally Darkside son, anti-life, somewhat amoral. Done
Mr Zoat
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Thank you, corrected.
Pinklestia
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The problem is that Celestia did so while denying Sunset talent. Do you know what ponies do when you fuck up their special talent?
That yellow pony is normally shy and kind, but a few hours of being unable to use her special talent and... wow.
I am sure Grayven has kidnapped people before, it just seems like something he would do.
Vaermina
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That would backfire on Grayven horribly...
Because Celestia would actually want to help the two get together because Romance is just another kind of Friendship.
Slayer Anderson
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At the same time, though, I'm not entirely sure that Celestia is experience enough with a peer group disagreeing with her that she would know how to react to someone with no inclination to defer to her at all flouting her authority in a relatively civil discussion.
As far as the point on ethics and morality goes, I agree in principle, but disagree in practice. Much like Grayven's comment about 'giving Sunset practical problems' and letting her solve them, I remember that at one point he instructed her and a few others to bring peace to a central African region undergoing a long-term and gruesome war. How do you do that? What kind of world will you be responsible for creating afterwards? Is it just a short-term peace or a long-term? What does peace even mean? These are all important questions that Sunset had to think long and hard about to complete that 'lesson.'
While the ethics portion of Grayven's 'lessons' with Sunset haven't been explicit, they are still extant. Grayven merely makes the exercise about using power of any sort correctly and justly instead of forcing the focus on the ethics themselves as the subject matter.
What this means for me, as someone with a background in education, is that Celestia is actually the one at fault here. There's a common general understanding that if you're teaching one or more children and they fail a test, then that's probably their fault. If you're teaching them and they keep failing your tests, then it's your fault, because they're not understanding the material. Unless a child is entirely against learning anything at all, it's a teacher's responsibility to present the material in a way that appeals to their student. Sunset is a teacher's dream student, honestly, and it's extremely disheartening that Celestia wasn't able to realize her fundamental mistake in approaching the entire issue of her student's education.
Edit: All of that's not even touching on the fact that Celestia kicked Sunset out of her home for disobeying her authority as Princess and Ruler. Which Sunset implicitly understands to be her mother abandoning her, but Celestia apparently can't. That's on a whole different level than just refusing to teach her anything anymore.
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Sockmonkey
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I think Celestia suffers from the same problem as Yoda.
When you've been old and wise for centuries, you forget what it's like to be young and immature.
When you've been old and wise for centuries, you forget what it's like to be young and immature.
Pinklestia
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Are they still alive? Sunset left Equestria ages ago.
Most fans seem to think Sunset is an orphan anyway.
RichardWhereat
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And? It would be hilarious for us. That's what matters here.
Idkusername
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Yup. Exactly this.
To give you a perspective from the other side of things, you've no idea how dysfunctional my family is. My parents were under a lot of stress because of quarrels with my grandparents. And not just shouting either, full on verbal abuse and degradation (because initially my parents put up with it because of 'duty') and throwing around buckets of water and shit, with 6-7 year old me still in the room.
Eventually my relationship with my parents turned toxic and it was always up to me to de-escalate the situation and manage it with a more mature temperament. Add to this that children are to be seen and not heard (and corporal punishment was acceptable in their generation) it led to a lot of friction. I'm not gonna go into the whole of things, but assuming that you know what's best for your ward despite them being demonstrably mature enough to make their own choices and not allowing them to have a say in their own life can have pretty lasting consequences, not in them and your relationship. I'm stuck here with bipolar disorder and heavy impulsiveness, with I'm pretty sure could have developed into ASPD if I hadn't mismanaged the situation and my parents didn't provide support.
Celestia is most definitely not in the right. In fact, she messed up spectacularly.
Lupercal
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Counter point. Sunset still has not demonstrated the kind of maturity that you are talking about. A reminder that her reaction to being told no was to break the law and then expect her privelage to protect her from consaquences. Then in canon she became a petty bully at a high school before trying to mind-control her classmates, and then the whole human world, and turn them into an army to take over equestria and rule it with an iron fist.
Celestia certainly is not blameless, she is failing to understand Sunset and provide the right support. However, her first reaction, here and in canon, is to make sure that Sunset is physically okay, mentally okay and then welcome her home with no punishment. She is messing up but it comes from a place of care and she is far from being abusive in her mistakes.
ForeverShogo
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Yeah. A lot of people are forgetting that Sunset is kind of a piece of shit. She's not as bad as she could have been, but she was never going to become an Alicorn if ending up in one of the DC universes didn't basically allow her to find the means to cheat her way there.
Lupercal
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Well I wouldn't go that far in the other direction. She essentially rehabilitated herself once it became clear what she was doing was wrong. She isn't a terrible person she just went down a series of bad choices that made things progressively worse and she never went down that route in this story so she shouldn't have it held against her.
Aeess
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Definetly Zatanna, Grayven teased her about it multiple times.