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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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Mr Zoat, I'm not sure if you missed it, but I actually made a mistake for one correction I pointed out.
Mr Zoat said:
And Ploutus wouldn't want to unmask his avatar.
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That should actually say 'Ploutos'. I searched for both on the story only thread, and found that only the one with 2 o's and 1 u showed up with the previous entries.
 
Radix said:
And here is the flaw in Paul's methodology again. He defaults straight to hostile. His intelligence gathering centers around getting info from people who have grudges with his target. No attempt made to reasom or even get the target's side of it. Or even empathize with why they would do this.

He instead bases it on his assumptions. All to avoid giving up "surprise". And I domt really see how the idea that some people dont like an idea gives up the element of surprise to do something about it. Of course Diana's students would come to him and plead for releasing her. Doesnt mean they will revolt from his perspective.

Forcing it to subdue them at all costs also raises the risk od resistence as opposed to finding what they want and making a trade. It is so hypocritical given what OL tries to let go out of convenience. Such as his attempts to get Luthor on side. There is a lot of good that could be gained from getting Zeus on-side. And really what has Zeus done that much? Adultery?
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Paul tends to be very biased against those that harm those close to him.

It's happened before, like when Nabu took Giovanni as a host, Paul's initial reaction to it was to kill Nabu.

He wasn't all that interested in getting him another host or anything like that for quite a while.

And while Paul hasn't interacted with Zeus, he still has a lot of information on him and how he acts, even from sources that are not against him, so he can make a pretty good assumption that Zeus isn't going to back down unless he's forced to.

Based on everything that has happened, Zeus asking Diana to marry him, then sending her to a hell with uber powerful gods, doesn't point to those two things just being coincidental. It points to him punishing her for rejecting him.

And Zeus has done a lot more than just adultery and being an abusive husband.

Remember all those rapes and murders he committed just because he felt like it?
 
Vaermina said:
The Marvel Family loose their powers.
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Maybe I'm wrong, but hasn't it been explained that they don't literally get their powers from the people in the name? After all, them getting power from Zeus doesn't make that much sense with the way he works here, and getting power from the others like Solomon makes even less sense.
 
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Duke Long said:
Maybe I'm wrong, but hasn't it been explained that they don't literally get their powers from the people in the name? After all, then getting power from Zeus doesn't make that much sense with the way he works here, and getting power from the others like Solomon makes even less sense.
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The Lords of Magic, archetypal figures that just share the names, yes.

But here I'm pretty sure that Zoat is using the traditional seemingly random collection of a titan, a Roman god, Greek gods, and two dead guys.

But since Achilles and Solomon have been dead for millenia, Zeus biting it logically shouldn't matter.
 
Duke Long said:
Maybe I'm wrong, but hasn't it been explained that they don't literally get their powers from the people in the name? After all, them getting power from Zeus doesn't make that much sense with the way he works here, and getting power from the others like Solomon makes even less sense.
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No, I think they get their power from the guys that have those names, and Zeus is one of them.

Stsword said:
The Lords of Magic, archetypal figures that just share the names, yes.

But here I'm pretty sure that Zoat is using the traditional seemingly random collection of a titan, a Roman god, Greek gods, and two dead guys.

But since Achilles and Solomon have been dead for millenia, Zeus biting it logically shouldn't matter.
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Though Achilles and Solomon could have achieved some level of divinity.

Plus they didn't die when they were giving the Marvel's their power.
 
Darko said:
Though Achilles and Solomon could have achieved some level of divinity.
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Achilles definitely had some level of divinity, since he was a grandson of a deity (and a great-grandson of Gaia).

Also, while I was looking at his Wikipedia page, I learned that his mother spurned Zeus' marriage proposal, which enraged him and caused him to punish her. An interesting parallel to current events in this story. Also, interestingly, Zeus apparently offered to marry her while still married to Hera.
 
Duke Long said:
Achilles definitely had some level of divinity, since he was a grandson of a deity (and a great-grandson of Gaia).
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I believe he's actually a demigod, no? His mother was a Nereid, which is a minor sea goddess/sea nymph, and his father some hero that was chosen for her because an oracle said she would birth a god too powerful to be comfortable, I think?

Which means, Zeus was all for boning her until there was a danger of producing a possible rival and then, screw her, marry her to a mortal!
 
Mr Zoat said:
The only thing I disagre with is the Lex Luthor comparison. Lex Luthor is very easy to kill.

That's why all the text was red until he accepted that they were actually taking action.
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Luthor is killable, but has definitely done worse than Zeus and gets far more effort to sway him.

Zeus was an asshole. But he was also king of the gods. And the gods were shaped by human belief. Is him being an asshole not a reflection of the ancient kings being an asshole?

It's not even like this punishment is really that harmful. It mostly just takes up her time. And Diana could refuse. Zeus is an asshole, but it doesnt mean he cant be reasoned with.

Paul was perfectly cordial to Hera despite all the murders she committed.
 
I'm going to... actually back Paul on this, at least partway.
Yes, planning to kill a god does seem rather extreme. But the planning is the part you should do whether or not there will be an attempt. Ideally, this plan will not end with killing Zeus. But the worst outcome is needing to be able to kill him and not having the capacity. Because he might flip out at being questioned and start laying waste to the innocent.
Paul doesn't try hard enough to avoid killing or attacking things he shouldn't... but that's a fault he hasn't committed just yet in this endeavor, so I can't call him out for it. Right now, this is a what can we do and how and what happens after, which is the prerequisite to what leverage can we apply to changing the outcome. That's what you should be doing in any kind of negotiation. And then you can all sit down and decide how far you're willing to go to get the outcome you want. Or rather, which sets of outcomes are exchanges you want.
The problem is "and the other guy lives" usually isn't a heavy weight in Paul's ethical calculus, but a mild preference usually overweighed by things like "but I would have to push an extra button to save him".
 
rkyeun said:
I'm going to... actually back Paul on this, at least partway.
Yes, planning to kill a god does seem rather extreme. But the planning is the part you should do whether or not there will be an attempt. Ideally, this plan will not end with killing Zeus. But the worst outcome is needing to be able to kill him and not having the capacity. Because he might flip out at being questioned and start laying waste to the innocent.
Paul doesn't try hard enough to avoid killing or attacking things he shouldn't... but that's a fault he hasn't committed just yet in this endeavor, so I can't call him out for it. Right now, this is a what can we do and how and what happens after, which is the prerequisite to what leverage can we apply to changing the outcome. That's what you should be doing in any kind of negotiation. And then you can all sit down and decide how far you're willing to go to get the outcome you want. Or rather, which sets of outcomes are exchanges you want.
The problem is "and the other guy lives" usually isn't a heavy weight in Paul's ethical calculus, but a mild preference usually overweighed by things like "but I would have to push an extra button to save him".
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Except Paragon was asked by literally everyone to keep his nose out of it.

And Diana asked him directly not to fight Zeus. Where upon he weasel worded to avoid promising so.
 
Vaermina said:
Except Paragon was asked by literally everyone to keep his nose out of it.

And Diana asked him directly not to fight Zeus. Where upon he weasel worded to avoid promising so.
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(Replying to Vaermina)

Mr Zoat said:
"Yes, that is why I said no. I still want you to promise me."

Breathe in, breathe out.

"I promise that I will not fight Zeus. Anything else?"
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Weasel worded? it seems like he's pretty directly promising not to fight Zeus.
 
Mr Zoat said:
"I don't think so, but I've never spoken to him directly and I'm not prepared to risk their lives on my beliefs. Now. Individual assignments."
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What a well intellectual argument to parry attempts to deescalate his stance. Taylor Hebert would be proud.
BlueMangoAdea said:
Canis: I like where this is going.
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The art he will make if this will be his greatest masterpiece yet!

Wonder how Common Sense Paul would handle this?
 
When Zeus gets uppity, you know who to call (TEEN TITANS!)
From their mountain, they can reach it all (TEEN TITANS!)
When there's a dick god talkin smack
You can bet they'll stomp him into the ground
'Cause Diana's been sent to some Hellenic hole
TEEN TITANS, GO!

With their super powers, they unite (TEEN TITANS!)
Never met a perv god that they liked (TEEN TITANS!)
They got Zeus staring down the gun
They never stop until the job gets done
'Cause when Zeus is a massive a*&hole

TEEN TITANS, GO!

One, two, three, four, GO!
TEEN TITANS!
 
Ciber said:
When Zeus gets uppity, you know who to call (TEEN TITANS!)
From their mountain, they can reach it all (TEEN TITANS!)
When there's a dick god talkin smack
You can bet they'll stomp him into the ground
'Cause Diana's been sent to some Hellenic hole
TEEN TITANS, GO!

With their super powers, they unite (TEEN TITANS!)
Never met a perv god that they liked (TEEN TITANS!)
They got Zeus staring down the gun
They never stop until the job gets done
'Cause when Zeus is a massive a*&hole

TEEN TITANS, GO!

One, two, three, four, GO!
TEEN TITANS!
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I'm fairly sure Erebos, Gaia, and the rest haven't been teenagers in about 35,000 years.

I mean, OL could always hire Dr Sivana to age regress a Titanic Domain Of The Dreaming, I'm sure he'd be up for the challenge.
 
Radix said:
Luthor is killable, but has definitely done worse than Zeus and gets far more effort to sway him.
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True.

Radix said:
It's not even like this punishment is really that harmful. It mostly just takes up her time. And Diana could refuse. Zeus is an asshole, but it doesnt mean he cant be reasoned with.
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Diana is in an afterlife that has a bunch of extremely powerful gods that hate her employer and probably anyone that works for him.

This is not a safe place for her and he was probably planning on harming her for refusing him.

And Diana can't exactly refuse, since Zeus could probably try to directly kill her or harm some other innocent.

Rejecting him one time may have worked, but a second time may not.

And while this started because of what Zeus did to Diana, it's a much bigger problem than that.

Zeus is an overgrown manchild that has committed all sorts of evil deeds and has not shown any inclination to change.

Getting rid of him or at least just getting the means to get rid if him is necessary to stop him.

Radix said:
Paul was perfectly cordial to Hera despite all the murders she committed.
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The first time he met her, he didn't know it was her.

And Hera has actually stopped doing her shit, while Zeus still is doing it.

mastermenthe said:
I'm fairly sure Erebos, Gaia, and the rest haven't been teenagers in about 35,000 years.

I mean, OL could always hire Dr Sivana to age regress a Titanic Domain Of The Dreaming, I'm sure he'd be up for the challenge.
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We don't know how Titan puberty works.

They could still be teenagers and the Olympians could still be children.

Actually that would explain a lot.
 
Coup Data (part 6)
27th October 2012
06:43 GMT +3

"Lord Hades, King of Erebos."

I make a point of bowing to ninety degrees, a formal display of respect and deference. I'm also in formal robes, and my aura hasn't died down to anything like normal resting levels. Hades read my mood rather well, and the petitioner was politely but firmly escorted out by his guards when I arrived.

Zagreus was already here, along with his sister Macaria. I haven't had anything to do with her, though I suppose that technically I've achieved the aim that she sets for her followers on two occasions. Or was the first time too selfish? Honestly, training her up as a judge makes more sense to me than getting Zagreus or Melinoë more involved in running Erebos.

Canis doesn't bow, instead just looking around. He doesn't have that near-manic expression he gets when he sees something really interesting, but he is taking the opportunity to have a look around the last resting place of the dead of Greece and anyone who couldn't find anywhere better. Zagreus gives him the occasional look, but otherwise there's little reaction by the gods to a New God.

"Paul, Illustres of the Orange Lantern Corps. Rise, rise." I straighten up but otherwise remain fairly rigid. "It does not require the judgement of a god to know why you are here."

"Lord Zeus."

"My brother's treatment of Diana is… A feeble smokescreen to disguise his intention."

"Nearly as feeble as the attempts by those involved to prevent me from finding out."

"If you do not want a reputation for highly aggressive responses to those who wrong your allies, then I suggest killing fewer order-lords. And if you want your other allies to have concerns about what you will do should they fail to react in a way they find pleasing, you may want to consider threatening them less."

"This isn't as bad as the Nabu situation, and they've had less time to think things through. What I wish to know is what you intend to do."

"I have explained to my brother why he should not behave in this way. He in return made certain observations concerning my own marriage and suggested that-. That was why he was disinclined to seek my advice on the subject."

"Did you intend to do anything else?"

"Not at this stage."

"Do you believe Lord Zeus for a moment when he claims that the inmates of Tartarus are at a heightened risk of escape?"

"I know of no corroborating evidence, and quite a detailed survey was made after the incidents with Donna Troy and Deva."

"What is the mechanism to talk Lord Zeus out of making a poor decision?"

"We talk to him about it until either he decides not to… Or it's too late. Princess Diana is a powerful demigoddess dealing with beings who have been imprisoned for longer than human civilisation has existed. She is in no danger, and I see little harm in her checking my work."

"You are not insulted by Lord Zeus ordering someone to check your work?"

"If the actual reason for him sending her wasn't completely transparent, then I might be." He leans forward slightly. "I will be clear now, Illustres. Much as I disagree with what my brother has done, distasteful as I find it, I will not support the sort of aggressive action with which you have become associated. I will certainly not undertake it myself."

"And if someone else did?"

He contemplates me for a few moments.

"What are you planning, Lantern?"

"A dozen or so things. But at the moment I am simply gathering information. Amongst…" I fan my hands out to either side. "Mortals, dropping waste material in a public street is a criminal act. It's not a serious act, if the quantity of waste is small. Usually a person would just get told to pick whatever it was up." I shrug. "They might get a small fine. It's not a big deal. But.. it.. is a criminal act. And a person can be taken to court over it with all the expenses that involves, and if they don't pay there are interest charges and ultimately debt recovery charges. Someone can be arrested, have their property seized… I think a person can even end up in prison for Contempt of Court if they're really intransigent about it. It's against the law, and that needs to be enforced."

"I think that I understand, but perhaps you could clarify."

"A prideful god sending a devotee on a snipe hunt isn't that big a deal. Not really. But it is a misdeed and it is likely that her friends will pursue the matter. However far they must."

"My brother does not usually respond well to efforts at compulsion."

I smile. "Neither do order-lords. In my experience."

"Do you?"

I shrug. "Diana asked me to promise not to attack Lord Zeus. I did. To an extent my hands are bound." I see Zagreus sigh with relief. "But there are ways to make a person's life awkward which do not require direct violence. And I am to my knowledge the only one so bound."

"I hear what you say."

I bow again, this time not quite so far.

"Thank you for your time, Lord Hades."

He waves his right hand in dismissal, and I turn and walk out of the throne room.

"An interesting experience." Canis pulls himself up onto Brut's back. "A less powerful figure than Darkseid."

"True. I much prefer it this way."

"I also." We head towards the exit at some speed, Brut loping along beside me as I fly. "I can scarce imagine a universe containing two Darkseids. I would be filled with a most profound confusion."

We exit the palace grounds and head 'west', towards our next interviewee.

"I was a little surprised that Melinoë wasn't there."

"Your ally, the Goddess of Nightmares and Madness?" I nod. "Truly a shame. I hoped to consult with her."

"You want to paint madness and nightmares?"

"I wish for her to unleash the full gamut of her wrath upon me, that I might make art while my mind is so afflicted. Or perhaps her efforts might be in vain; having quailed before Darkseid, other sources of fear are far less concerning."

"Maybe later."

"The witch-goddess we are visiting. I do not recall her appearing in your records."

"I've never met her before, though she has blessed Donna a few times."

"A risk, then. What knowledge do you seek that you cannot find elsewhere?"

"Hades is far more powerful than most Olympians due to his bond with Erebos. But he accepted Zeus becoming the ruler of the gods."

"He has a similar bond to some being."

"That would be my guess. But it's not mentioned in Themyscira's holy texts, and neither Hades nor Melinoë nor any of the others have mentioned it. I need to know what and I need to know how, because once I do, then I have all the leverage I need."
 
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Mr Zoat said:
"The witch-goddess we are visiting. I do not recall her appearing in your records."

"I've never met her before, though she has blessed Donna a few times."

"A risk, then. What knowledge do you seek that you cannot find elsewhere?"

"Hades is far more powerful than most Olympians due to his bond with Erebos. But he accepted Zeus becoming the ruler of the gods."

"He has a similar bond to some being."

"That would be my guess. But it's not mentioned in Themyscira's holy texts, and neither Hades nor Melinoë nor any of the others have mentioned it. I need to know what and I need to know how, because once I do, then I have all the leverage I need."
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Can anyone who knows who this is referring to please share with the rest of the class?
 
Mr Zoat said:
Honestly, training her up as a judge makes more sense to me than getting Zagreus or Melinoë more involved in running Erebos.
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She is a goddess of death, so it makes sense.

Her other two siblings aren't.

Well, Zagreus is connected to rebirth, but that's it.

Mr Zoat said:
nod. "Truly a shame. I hoped to consult with her."

"You want to paint madness and nightmares?"

"I wish for her to unleash the full gamut of her wrath upon me, that I might make art while my mind is so afflicted. Or perhaps her efforts might be in vain; having quailed before Darkseid, other sources of fear are far less concerning
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Ahh, Canis.
 
Mr Zoat said:
"That would be my guess. But it's not mentioned in Themyscira's holy texts, and neither Hades nor Melinoë nor any of the others have mentioned it. I need to know what and I need to know how, because once I do, then I have all the leverage I need."
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And to the surprise of nobody, Zoat has decided to nerf Zeus.
 
Mr Zoat said:
"That would be my guess. But it's not mentioned in Themyscira's holy texts, and neither Hades nor Melinoë nor any of the others have mentioned it. I need to know what and I need to know how, because once I do, then I have all the leverage I need."
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Ouranos?

Or Tartarus -and everyone within it- that would be some proper divine minmaxing.
 
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